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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Thursday 3-15-2001 9:00 P.M. EST

Compare/Contrast Don Harvey(BP) and Juan Rico(ST)

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The next discussion will compare and contrast ( sounds like an essay question, doesn't it?) the stories of Don Harvey in 'Between Planets' (1951) and Juan Rico in 'Starship Troopers' (1959).

Both books share the theme of a young, possibly naive boy being forced to grow up quickly as the world around him shatters and reforms. For Don the catalyst the summons from his parents that moves him from the comfortable school environment into the swamps of Venus as a revolutionary soldier. For Rico it is the declaration of war that turns his nominal three year enlistment into a deadly reality.

ST may have been submitted as a juvenile but in comparison to BP it seems far more of an adult book. There is no mysterious decoder ring, no charming aliens, no romance and no simple, satisfyingly neat ending. Instead, Rico loses his mother and friends then sees his father placed in the line of fire. The Bugs are not defeated and we are left with the feeling that Rico's luck may not last forever.

So was Heinlein simply revamping BP for an adult audience, stripping away the extraneous elements to give us a purer story line? Or was BP a better book because it had less chat and more action? Are Don and Juan similar in their reactions? Which one copes best with the changes in his life? Is Don's transformation to soldier glossed over too much or is it believable?

Any thoughts ( but PLEASE....let's keep off that well trodden path of ST debate; I don't want us to go down the 'was it fascist', 'could it work' road yet again :-))

Oh, and on the subject of where Rico came from, I noticed that on the last page or so Heinlein deliberately makes it quite clear that he doesn't want us to know;

"Tagalog. My native language."

"Don't they talk Standard English where you come from?"

"Oh, certainly. For business and school and so forth. We just talk the old speech around home a little. Traditions. You know."

"Yeah, I know. My folk chatter in Espanaol the same way. But where do you -" The speaker started playing "Meadowland"; Bennie broke into a grin."Got a date with a ship! Watch yourself, fellow! See you."

See? The classic broken off question :-)

Jane

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On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 16:18:36 -0500, ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>wrote:

>

>ST may have been submitted as a juvenile but in comparison to BP it

>seems far more of an adult book. There is no mysterious decoder

>ring, no charming aliens, no romance and no simple, satisfyingly

>neat ending. Instead, Rico loses his mother and friends then sees

>his father placed in the line of fire. The Bugs are not defeated and

>we are left with the feeling that Rico's luck may not last forever.

I'm wishing that I didn't have to work that weekend...because I'd have to dig out the books and argue this point...there were comments about the potential for liberation of prisoners, as well as the capture of the brain bug by S/Sgt Zim... And as far as a soldier's luck running out, it was probably a Roman Decurion who first said the infamous words, "C'mon, you &(*%$)_ apes, you wanna live forever?"...

ck

-- Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP,Member,PGBFH,KC5EVN

Email address dump file for spam: reply to ckrin at Iamerica dot net

F*S=k (Freedom times Security equals a constant: the more

security you have, the less freedom! Niven's Fourth Law)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

charles krin wrote:

>On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 16:18:36 -0500, ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>wrote:

>

>>. The Bugs are not defeated and

>>we are left with the feeling that Rico's luck may not last forever.

>

>I'm wishing that I didn't have to work that weekend...because I'd have

>to dig out the books and argue this point...there were comments about

>the potential for liberation of prisoners, as well as the capture of

>the brain bug by S/Sgt Zim... And as far as a soldier's luck running

>out, it was probably a Roman Decurion who first said the infamous

>words, "C'mon, you &(*%$)_ apes, you wanna live forever?"...

>

>

I wish you could too, Chuck :-)

I agree that there are hints that we are winning but don't forget; Rico has gone career. That's a 20 year stretch usually; if the war with the Bugs ends, do you really think another one won't be round the corner? Plus, soldiers can die in peacetime too; it's a fluid term sometimes.

Also, at the end of the book, with quite a gap between it and the previous chapter, he's still fighting bugs and on a rescue mission so maybe the war is far from over.

That could be a difference between the two characters too; I didn't get the impression that Don would stay in the Army, in fact he was released on detached duty to join the scientists wasn't he? It might be interesting to look at the reasons both enlisted; Don's were more urgent reasons; his life was in danger, but he seems less committed to it as a career. Rico joined almost frivolously but ended up dedicating his life to the military.

Jane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Charles Krin:

>I'm wishing that I didn't have to work that weekend...because I'd have

>to dig out the books and argue this point...

Please argue here, Charles, or the previous Thursday evening.

>And as far as a soldier's luck running

>out, it was probably a Roman Decurion who first said the infamous

>words, "C'mon, you &(*%$)_ apes, you wanna live forever?"...

Could have been a decurio, or ordio, who said that the first time, but ... At the battle of Belleau Wood, which began at dawn on June 6, 1917, two Marine companies of the Sixth Regiment began the assault, which the first sergeant of the Machine Gun company (they were 'machine guns' as we know them, but ARs) by saying "C'mon, you bastards, do you wanna live forever?"

American newspapers highly publicized this incident.

His name was Daniel Daly ... he had twice previously been awarded the Medal of Honor (the siege of Pekin in 1900 [when he was a private], and in Haitii in 1915, serving under L.W.T. Waller and Smedley Butler [he was platoon sergeant, then]. Later during the battles of Château-Thierry, Daly was caught between lines. He put together a scratch platoon of remnents from several companies who like him had been caught off, and fought them as a unit until they were able to return to Marine lines. For this and other conduct during the battle Daly was recommended for a fourth [not third, he'd been recommended for a third in Vera Cruz around 1910, but no action resulted because no officer was present and no one in headquarters believed what it was said by enlisted men that he'd done] Medal of Honor and a battlefield commission. He refused both, refusing to allow his officers to submit the recommendation further up the chain to Pershing. He retired Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps during the 1920s, died shortly thereafter, and is buried not in Arlington, but in Philadelphia next to his sister.

The Marine Corps, of course, is part of the Naval Service. Heinlein, graduating from the Academy shortly after Daly died in retirement could hardly not have known who he was. I've always wondered how much more of Daly may be found in _Starship Troopers_. Daly's conduct in the actions that in part resulted in award of his second Medal of Honor, in Haitii, bears a superficial resemblance to what Zim does when he captures the brain bugs. Daly single-handedly infiltrated a Haitiian fortification to rescue some privates who had been captured, but I realize it's a bit of a stretch to compare that to Zim's rescue of the privates of Rico's platoon which resulted in his capture of the brain bug

.

Ah, well, it's interesting speculation to look for figures who might have been models.

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>(they were 'machine guns' as we know them, but ARs)

should read "they were *not* 'machine guns' as we know them, but ARs [automatic rifles]."

In fact they were French made Chauchats, the Browning AR not having been produced in sufficient quantities yet to have made our own troops. But enough of that ...

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 06 Mar 2001 07:15:11 GMT, agplusone@aol.com (AGplusone) insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:

>He retired Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps during the 1920s

David, I read this as "the", not "a" Sergeant Major. Would that be correct? I thought the position was more recent, being created about the time the Army instituted it.

--

Jon

If you stand still, sooner or later something will eat you

James Burke

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jon:

>>He retired Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps during the 1920s

>

>David, I read this as "the", not "a" Sergeant Major. Would that be

>correct? I thought the position was more recent, being created about

>the time the Army instituted it.

No. There was one Sergeant Major of the Corps for a goodly time. For example, Smedly Butler's biography, _Old Gimlet Eye_, as told to whomever that was (his name temporarily escapes me) who wrote it (some famous news correspondent) describes with relish the one who was Sergeant Major of the Corps when Butler, at age seventeen, received his commission at the beginning of the Spanish-American War and reported aboard. Among other things, the Sergeant Major at Eighth and "Eye" quickly trains the newly-minted officers in such arcane items as wearing their uniforms correctly, standing at attention, and marching and such before allowing them to be unleashed on the really "old breed."

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jane asked that we compare and contrast elements of _Between Planets_ and _Starship Troopers_ including:

>Is Don's transformation to soldier glossed over

>too much or is it believable?

I think Don's transformation pretty well had to be glossed over very quickly, particularly in a juvenile. Don Harvey is fighting a guerrilla war, as a guerrilla. Heinlein at one time had a guerrilla war to write on tap, "The Stone Pillow," as part of his so-styled Future History series, the one that comes just before "If This Goes On ... "

If academia had snit-fits in the 1960s over the subject matter of Troopers, the military, imagine what they'd have done to find the detailed fighting of a guerrilla war in a juvenile.

You'll recall what happens to Snotty Fascett in the corridors of the Prophet's Headquarters when they discover he's been tracking them in his role as anti-intelligence agent? Sister Magdalene's knife? Guerrillas don't generally take any prisoners. They rarely give safe conduct. One of the less likely scenarios in Heinlein is that part where Wingate is extracted from the guerrilla camp in "Logic of Empire."

Taking prisoners and giving safe conduct and such is a good way to end up dead or captured yourself if you're a guerrilla. And captured usually means merely dead shortly. Ask Aguinaldo's ghost what letting 'prisoners' be marched into his camp meant. It meant for him that General Funston's party was enabled to get close enough to capture him and bring an end to an organized insurrection -- or war of revolution so the Filipinos thought.

The problem with Don Harvey for me has always been that there's this here adult character stuck into a juvenile novel, he's experienced adult experiences that have necessarily to be truncated.

I think you have to bring an adult realization of the underlaying realities of guerrilla war to the book to understand exactly how believable Don's transformation might be, and why, perhaps, he's the ideal person to be in charge of that dead man's switch on the voyage to Mars.

Don had a lot of trouble understanding the cold-bloodedness of the IBI agent's threat to torture his pony, back in New Chicago (IIRC) in the beginning. I think once he got through the months of guerrilla war before they send him on to the scientists he'd have had little difficulty understanding how small the torture and death of a pony can be.

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Smedly Butler's biography, _Old Gimlet Eye_, as told to whomever that was

>(his

>name temporarily escapes me) who wrote it (some famous news correspondent)

Lowell Thomas was the writer of the earliest of Smedley Darlington Butler's biographies, some senior moments having temporarily been swept away from my so-called mind by morning cardiovascular exercise consisting of pedalling a few miles along the beach. It's supposed to be thunderstorming out here in LA-LA land, but oddly, we have bright sunshine with huge thunderclouds wafting by. Bicycling in bright sunshine in a poncho reminded me of some bad dreams going back as far as summer training for high school football, but my color was nice and fresh when I returned.

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AGplusone wrote:

>

>The problem with Don Harvey for me has always been that there's this here adult

>character stuck into a juvenile novel, he's experienced adult experiences that

>have necessarily to be truncated.

>

>I think you have to bring an adult realization of the underlaying realities of

>guerrilla war to the book to understand exactly how believable Don's

>transformation might be, and why, perhaps, he's the ideal person to be in

>charge of that dead man's switch on the voyage to Mars.

>

>Don had a lot of trouble understanding the cold-bloodedness of the IBI agent's

>threat to torture his pony, back in New Chicago (IIRC) in the beginning. I

>think once he got through the months of guerrilla war before they send him on

>to the scientists he'd have had little difficulty understanding how small the

>torture and death of a pony can be.

>--

>

It is quite close to borderline adult in many places isn't it? The scene where Charlie dies is fairly graphic, not to mention the man who dies trying to escape the compound. I think the trimmings; the ring, Isobel and the aliens, distract the reader from the fact that Don goes from a carefree schoolboy to someone who has killed and who has developed the necessary mental toughness to cope with his situation. look at the way he reacts when he is put in a position of safety and leisure; gnawing boredom and the eventual statement that,

"I want real work - my own work. I'm a soldier and there's a war going on - that's where I belong."

Would the Don at the start of the book, going with the flow to suit his own personal ends (reaching his parents) have thought that way? I don't think so. The fact that he sets aside his efforts to reach his parents in favour of putting his life on the line to protect his native planet from the invaders is a significant sign of maturity IMO.

If you look at Heinlein's juveniles, it's hard to find one where someone fairly significant doesn't die violently; Star Beast possibly....but that's about it.

Oh and Sir Isaac gets my vote as the most fully realised alien in Heinlein; love that bit at the end where he defends Don against the person trying to bully him.

Jane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think it was the academics who were having snits over STarship Troopers -- Academics have only just begun paying attention to this stuff.

I find the similarities of Johnny's situation and Don's interesting: they both had to make a decision to stand up in defense of home.

Bill [Patterson]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>17; Don v Juan or Schoolboys to Soldiers

>The fact that he sets aside his efforts to reach his parents in favour of putting

>his life on the line to protect his native planet from the invaders is a

>significant sign of maturity IMO.

Or of commonsnse.

A cynic would say that the goal of finding his parents was never very sensible in the first place. After all, if they have dumped him in boarding-school in order to go swanning off in pursuit of some political cause or other, then he is well rid of them - _unless_ of course he shares the political goal - which in this case he does. But then, of course, he will naturally put the cause ahead of being united with his parents - just as they had put it ahead of being united with _him_

--

Mike Stone - Peterborough England

"The English people are like the English beer.

Froth on top, dregs at the bottom, the middle excellent" - Voltaire

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 06 Mar 2001 07:15:11 GMT, agplusone@aol.com (AGplusone) wrote:

>

>Ah, well, it's interesting speculation to look for figures who might have been

>models.

David, I agree that Dan Daly may have been one of the figures that Zim was modeled on, and I am aware that he was the first one who was publicly acknowledged to have used that immortal phrase (second only to "Follow Me!" in the leadership lexicon that I was taught...)

I am also of the belief, that I can not substantiate right now, that RAH also pointed out some where along the line that the sentiment expressed in both of those phrases well predated modern times.

ck

--

Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP,Member,PGBFH,KC5EVN

Email address dump file for spam: reply to ckrin at Iamerica dot net

F*S=k (Freedom times Security equals a constant: the more

security you have, the less freedom! Niven's Fourth Law)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

charles krin wrote:

>On 06 Mar 2001 07:15:11 GMT, agplusone@aol.com (AGplusone) wrote:

>

>>

>>Ah, well, it's interesting speculation to look for figures who might have been

>>models.

>

>David, I agree that Dan Daly may have been one of the figures that Zim

>was modeled on, and I am aware that he was the first one who was

>publicly acknowledged to have used that immortal phrase (second only

>to "Follow Me!" in the leadership lexicon that I was taught...)

>

>I am also of the belief, that I can not substantiate right now, that

>RAH also pointed out some where along the line that the sentiment

>expressed in both of those phrases well predated modern times.

>

>

FWIW, Heinlein uses the phrase as the heading for Chapter 1 of ST and credits it to

"unknown platoon sergeant, 1918"

Jane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

>>I am also of the belief, that I can not substantiate right now, that

>>RAH also pointed out some where along the line that the sentiment

>>expressed in both of those phrases well predated modern times.

>>

>>

>

>FWIW, Heinlein uses the phrase as the heading for Chapter 1 of ST and credits

>it to

>"unknown platoon sergeant, 1918"

I am working from memory here. I think I remember that Sgt. Jelal was addressing the platoon right before a drop, and called them something like "all right you apes..." and Rico marrated that this might refer to the fact that the fighting suits made them look like apes, but it was more likely that an ancient centurion had called his soldiers apes, and that the name had stuck. Jelal went on to tell the troops to bring that expensive suit back. The suit cost about half a million, and when you added in the fifty cents that the cap trooper himself was worth, that was quite a sum.

This was more or less an in joke, I think. While the suits may have been expensive and not something to expend lightly, it was also made clear that a trained cap trooper was a valuable resource.

--

Mr. President, we must not allow a mine shaft gap!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mike stone wrote:

>

>A cynic would say that the goal of finding his parents was never very sensible

>in the first place. After all, if they have dumped him in boarding-school in

>order to go swanning off in pursuit of some political cause or other, then he

>is well rid of them - _unless_ of course he shares the political goal - which

>in this case he does. But then, of course, he will naturally put the cause

>ahead of being united with his parents - just as they had put it ahead of being

>united with _him_

>--

>

He was with his parents as a child then sent away to school on Earth at the age of 11. The story seems to begin with him around 18; his school friend is waiting for a birthday in order to be old enough to sign up.

I always took this as tying in with the colonial theme of the story and the historical example of British soldiers in India who took their wives and young children with them but sent/ kept the older children home for schooling. this was common practise even in the 1950's; lots of my boarding school books feature children with parents in Africa or New Zealand.

But the political bit of his parents work was unknown to Don; they are presented as being highly regarded scientists and researchers.

Why don't they get criticised the way Poddy's parents do I wonder?

Jane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike Stone:

>After all, if they have dumped him in boarding-school in

>order to go swanning off in pursuit of some political cause or other, then

>he

>is well rid of them ... [snip]...

Bearing in mind that the *if* word *is* present in your statement, I'm afraid I still don't understand, Mike, because IIRC they were both research scientists of one sort or another, employed on Mars, where the leading edge of employment in their professions was to be found -- just as, for example, Rudyard Kipling's father's professional interest in Indian antiquities was to be found in the museum that employed him in India (or Podkayne Fries' father's interest in Martian antiquities was at the site where they were to be found in their original states). The 'political cause' seemed merely a by-product of reaction against Earth's imperial expansionist policies, aggravated by a heavy levening of resentment against governing techniques which borrow from and extrapolate upon the then-current IRL McCarthyism at the time the juvenile was written.

[RAH was finishing or had just finished his work on the movie Destination Moon and perhaps, I'd speculate, the Hollywood atmosphere of being under siege to the HUAC investigators and like others rubbed off into this story. The IBI is an FBI run amok, obviously. Dr. Jefferson has "heart failure" under interrogation. Secret messages in souvenir rings are no less likely that the secret files in pumpkins Mr. Chambers tells Mr. Nixon about.]

The boarding school aspect is interesting to me mainly because it echoes the practices of Britain under its own imperialist period, the children of those employed expanding or administering or even studying the frontier of empire, like the Kipling children, are left in or 'returned to' such schools by their parents--perhaps for no reason other than the distance here, perhaps for other less evident reasons, the exotic illnesses, etc., or simply to restore to them their heritage [cf. Dr. Stone's comments to his twin sons about their learning to play baseball in _Rolling Stones_]. Left there to mix with the rich, those requiring more discipline than normal, those of broken families (Churchill qualified on some of those points, didn't he?), although I think the schools Kipling and his siblings attended were somewhat less expensive and less likely to result in elbow rubbing with the children of the rich and famous. I'm not sure that was an entirely good idea, but what other choice did they and did the Harveys here have?

Don Harvey's role is actually almost the equivalent of that of the child of an aristrocratic Indian family, if not an Anglo-India one, sent back to a British 'public' school to learn to adapt to and understand the colonizer's society, habits, and mores. Juan Rico fits into the school he attends by contrast, while Donald is outside trying to fit (or fit back in, having been never exposed to his own heritage, like Kim, for example).

I think the alienation aspect is far more a motivation for Don that any political goal, initially, until what happens on Venus, and it predisposed him to react as he did to what happened there. Don Harvey in a way is a lot like Mike, or Mowgli, or Kim, if the later two (an Indian and an Anglo-Indian) were to have been sent back to England.

Rico, by contrast, really isn't predisposed for much of anything, except a good time, is he? He doesn't feel alienated by not being from a family of the voting class, by contrast, his family is proud of that fact, they consider themselves contributing far more to society by their successful commercial efforts, sounding a lot like the capitalist attitude we hear so much of ... "just lower our taxes some more and get out of the way."

But perhaps RAH wouldn't feel that the society Rico belongs to is ours either, the duties and responsibilities of citizenship don't really pertain to the "ricos" do they? Starship Troopers contains a little subversion against that class which isn't often remarked upon, I think, doesn't it?

I don't think either family spent much time thinking about politics, or war. One just happened to occur and 'politics' turned out to be of some minor importance in both cases, as it coincidentally does every couple generations.

I wonder, however, what the bottom line of each individual's 'politics' is, if it isn't simply requiring a commitment by both Juan and Donald to making a choice and following through?

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From: agplusone@aol.com (AGplusone)

>>After all, if they have dumped him in boarding-school in

>>order to go swanning off in pursuit of some political cause or other, then

>>he

>>is well rid of them ... [snip]

>

>Bearing in mind that the *if* word *is* present in your statement, I'm afraid I

>still don't understand, Mike, because IIRC they were both research scientists

>of one sort or another, employed on Mars, where the leading edge of

>employment

>in their professions was to be found

You may be right - it is a while since I last read the book. My vague recollection was that they were involved in some kind of natioalist movement and the research was a cover - but I could easily be mistaken

My more general point was simply that being united with Don was obviously _not_ the top priority for the parents (whether it was their career or their cause that took priority doesn't make all that much difference) so if _they_ put other things first it is not too surprising if their son came to take a similar attitude

--

Mike Stone - Peterborough England

"The English people are like the English beer.

Froth on top, dregs at the bottom, the middle excellent" - Voltaire

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike Stone:

>My more general point was simply that being united with Don was obviously

>_not_

>the top priority for the parents (whether it was their career or their cause

>that took priority doesn't make all that much difference) so if _they_ put

>other things first it is not too surprising if their son came to take a

>similar attitude

I think that's a valid point with Donald Harvey, in the initial drawing of his juvenile character. When I'm forced to be simplistic, which is sometimes a good thing, I think _Between Planets_ could easily have been written as _Between Islands_ and be a reworking of John Donne's famous theme, you know the one ... that Hemingway quoted for the title of one of his novels.

--

David M. Silver

AGplusone@aol.com

"I expect your names to shine!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AGplusone wrote:

>Mike Stone:

>

>>My more general point was simply that being united with Don was obviously

>>_not_

>>the top priority for the parents (whether it was their career or their cause

>>that took priority doesn't make all that much difference) so if _they_ put

>>other things first it is not too surprising if their son came to take a

>>similar attitude

>

>I think that's a valid point with Donald Harvey, in the initial drawing of his

>juvenile character. When I'm forced to be simplistic, which is sometimes a good

>thing, I think _Between Planets_ could easily have been written as _Between

>Islands_ and be a reworking of John Donne's famous theme, you know the one ...

>that Hemingway quoted for the title of one of his novels.

>--

>

Just got to the end of it and it turns out his parents were members of a scientific version of the cabal in ITGO. Been too long since I read this obviously. it's interesting to see how his feelings about his parents change during the course of the book. At the start he is willing to follow their orders and makes many oaths and promises to meet up with them or die trying. At the end, when he is trying to decide if he should give up the ring he says,

"My parents aren't here and I'm not sure that I would let them instruct me if they were. I'm a grown man now -"

We aren't told how long he was a soldier but he is a far different person at the end of the story, no matter if weeks or months have gone by. In effect, he's graduated.

Jane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 07 Mar 2001 21:21:24 GMT, lvpokerplayer@aol.com (LV Poker Player)

wrote:

>>From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

>

>>>I am also of the belief, that I can not substantiate right now, that

>>>RAH also pointed out some where along the line that the sentiment

>>>expressed in both of those phrases well predated modern times.

>>>

>>>

>>

>>FWIW, Heinlein uses the phrase as the heading for Chapter 1 of ST and credits >>it to

>>"unknown platoon sergeant, 1918"

>

>

>I am working from memory here. I think I remember that Sgt. Jelal was >addressing the platoon right before a drop, and called them something like "all >right you apes..." and Rico marrated that this might refer to the fact that the >fighting suits made them look like apes, but it was more likely that an ancient >centurion had called his soldiers apes, and that the name had stuck. Jelal >went on to tell the troops to bring that expensive suit back. The suit cost >about half a million, and when you added in the fifty cents that the cap >trooper himself was worth, that was quite a sum.

>

>This was more or less an in joke, I think. While the suits may have been >expensive and not something to expend lightly, it was also made clear that a >trained cap trooper was a valuable resource.

Bingo...thank you...was not looking forward to trying to dig out a copy in the am...

but turns out that I am off next week after all, and just might have to try to tune in on Thurs...so maybe I do need to find them...

ck

--

Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP,Member,PGBFH,KC5EVN

Email address dump file for spam: reply to ckrin at Iamerica dot net

F*S=k (Freedom times Security equals a constant: the more

security you have, the less freedom! Niven's Fourth Law)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>his parents were members of a scientific

>version of the cabal in ITGO.

Actually it's an international conspiracy of scientists, and if that isn't a hoary chestnut (going back at least to Jules Verne) I don't know what is! Maybe a brain transplant? A beautiful scientist and his mad daughter? Bill [Patterson]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Why don't they get criticised the way Poddy's parents do I wonder?

I think maybe the expression we have been using that Don was "dumped" in school gives an impression that the book doesn't. I didn't have the impression Don's parents were indifferent to him or more concerned about their own convenience -- the way Poddy's mother was -- but giving him an opportunity he was obviously enjoying. Switch it around and I don't see that Don is pining or co-dependent, but he has a healthy desire to be reunited with his family of origin. Whatever one may think of Clarke Fries, he is clearly not a well-rounded or psychologically balanced person -- though he may come out of the self-building process in a few years much more so than we leave him. The same kind of pathology isn't there for Don Harvey.

With Johnny Rico, btw, I think we see a much more "average" relationship with family: he is at the stage where the sense of self-in-family is loosening up and being replaced by self-in-peer-group. At the end, he still has an intense identification with peer group, but we have the sense thathe has achieved the adult sense of self-in-self -- which is exactly what Don Harvey's reference to "not being sure" he would permit his parents to advise him now.

Bill [Patterson]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My copy of Between Planets is 169 pages long. I went through it noting down the various points where Don tells us of his loyalties to try and spot just where exactly he makes up his mind. The page numbers on the quotations can show just how long it is before he actually does commit.

Born in space to an Earth father and a mother from Venus, parents who met and married on Luna and worked in the solar system; Don is not to be blamed for being apolitical at the start of the novel. He's been on earth since he was 11 remember. It's interesting to note that, like Carl is to Rico, Jack is to Don; a close friend who, though the same age, is far more aware of the current situation and who has already made up his mind to volunteer for the armed services. In BP Don never thinks of Jack as anything but a friend, even though they're on different sides; in ST, we would probably have ended up with Rico killing an old friend who was supporting the Bugs ( bit of a stretch but you see what I mean).

Page 17 Don meets Sir Isaac and muses, "It was nice to run across somebody from home." A mild inclination to call Venus home.

Page 46 The space ship takes off. "Don's pulse quickened;excitement mounted in him. He felt ecstatically happy, eager to be back in space again, back where he belonged." Still no choice of planet.

Page 61 Don has to decide whether to go on to Venus or return to Earth. he rejects Earth; "No! He had outgrown that skin and shed it. The ranch school was no longer for him.

Down inside was another and stronger reason: the security police in New Chicago had made of him an alien; he would not go back because Earth was no longer his. Hobson's choice, he told himself, it's got to be Venus."

So, scratch earth..but still no firm commitment through belief, just necessity.

Page 75 he's told the best chance of getting to mars is to join the High Guard of Venus.

"On the other hand he was at the age at which the idea of military service was glamorous in itself. Had his feelings for Venus been just a touch stronger he could easily have persuaded himself that it was his duty to throw in with the colonists and sign up, whether it got him to Mars or not."

Starting to get an ache from the fence sitting..

Page 101 The threat of invasion.."His sympathies lay with venus anyway, no matter what the lawyers eventually decided about his nationality." and "the federation didn't have any business throwing its weight around on Venus anyhow. Whose planet was it?"

Getting there....

Page 103 He sort of volunteers but not quite. "It was better to volunteer than to be dragged." He will need a push; Charlie's death and the threat to Isobel's safety.

Page 124 'do you solemnly swear to uphold and defend the Constitution of the Venus Republic against all enemies, domestic and foreign; and to serve faithfully in the armed services of the Republic for the duration of this emergency unless sooner discharged by competent authority; and to obey the lawful orders of superior officers placed over you?"

Don took a deep breath. "I do."

Finally....with a bare 50 pages to go....and doesn't that sound familiar?

In ST, this is compressed into the period before Rico gets over "the hump" and accepts his situation but they do both go through a similar period of evolution.

Jane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting about the spreadout of the decision points -- but I wasn't really surprised. After all, the way Heinlein wrote juveniles they were about just this decision. if it comes too early, it kills off the rest of the story.

Bill [Patterson]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BPRAL22169 wrote:

>Interesting about the spreadout of the decision points -- but I wasn't really

>surprised. After all, the way Heinlein wrote juveniles they were about just

>this decision. if it comes too early, it kills off the rest of the story.

>Bill [Patterson]

True..but I came away with the impression of Don as being one of the less admirable characters in the juveniles simply because he was ready to play all ends against the middle to achieve his own ends. An earlier version of LL maybe but a Heinlein juvenile hero? No.

The inability to sense he's a marital target is an old theme...but I would have liked to see a little more of Isobel; enough to understand why she falls for Don, other than the obvious; he's about the only eligible male around by the looks of it.

But I'll forgive all for Sir Isaac; no wonder he gets the final line in NOTB!

Jane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:

>>his parents were members of a scientific

>>version of the cabal in ITGO.

>Actually it's an international conspiracy of scientists, and if that isn't a

>hoary chestnut (going back at least to Jules Verne) I don't know what is!

>Maybe a brain transplant? A beautiful scientist and his mad daughter?

Tsk, tsk, tsk. I would have expected "A beautiful scientist and her mad son?" for added ironic emphasis.

OJ III

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Tsk, tsk, tsk. I would have expected "A beautiful scientist and her

>mad son?" for added ironic emphasis.

>

>OJ III

.....came close in the Star Trek world-killer movie, with Kirk's ex-honey and their son.

cheers

oz

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 08 Mar 2001 22:53:23 GMT, majoroz@aol.com (Major oz) insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:

>>Tsk, tsk, tsk. I would have expected "A beautiful scientist and her

>>mad son?" for added ironic emphasis.

>>

>>OJ III

>

>.....came close in the Star Trek world-killer movie, with Kirk's ex-honey and

>their son.

>

Which had as it's villian, an evil mutant genius from the near (as opposed to far) east.

--

Jon

News-Group postings are like lingerie on a woman:

The briefer the better.

Anon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

>I came away with the impression of Don as being one of the less

>admirable characters in the juveniles simply because he was ready to play all

>ends

>against the middle to achieve his own ends.

Is he wrong to do so?

Is there anyone in particular that he _owes_ any loyalty to?

--

Mike Stone - Peterborough England

"The English people are like the English beer.

Froth on top, dregs at the bottom, the middle excellent" - Voltaire

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>I came away with the impression of Don as being one of the less

>admirable characters in the juveniles simply because he was ready to play all

>ends

>against the middle

This is also something I see as part of the story structure. Don Harvey is a "man without a country" - not as a punishment, but simply because he has no natural place to put his loyalties that we do because of accidents of our birth. The ends he is trying to achieve are to get back to his family, which is admirable enough, I guess -- but the story decision point, or anagnorsis, is a deliberate, adult decision to give loyalty and support to a struggle he believes is right. And that I think is extremely admirable.

Bill [Patterson]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From: bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169)

>Don Harvey is a

>"man without a country" - not as a punishment, but simply because he has no

>natural place to put his loyalties that we do because of accidents of our

>birth. The ends he is trying to achieve are to get back to his family, which

>is admirable enough, I guess -- but the story decision point, or anagnorsis, is

>a deliberate, adult decision to give loyalty and support to a struggle he

>believes is right. And that I think is extremely admirable.

>Bill

In other words he _owes_ loyalty to no-one, but eventually finds someone (or soemthing) which he _wants_ to give it to

--

Mike Stone - Peterborough England

"The English people are like the English beer.

Froth on top, dregs at the bottom, the middle excellent" - Voltaire

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

lvpokerplayer@aol.com (LV Poker Player) wrote in article

>

>I am working from memory here. I think I remember that Sgt. Jelal was

>addressing the platoon right before a drop, and called them something like "all

>right you apes..." and Rico marrated that this might refer to the fact that the

>fighting suits made them look like apes, but it was more likely that an ancient

>centurion had called his soldiers apes, and that the name had stuck. Jelal

>went on to tell the troops to bring that expensive suit back. The suit cost

>about half a million, and when you added in the fifty cents that the cap

>trooper himself was worth, that was quite a sum.

>

Thirty cents:

I want to remind you apes that each and every one of you has cost the gov'ment, counting weapons, armor, ammo, instrumentation, and training, everything, including the way you overeat -- has cost, on the hoof, better'n half a million. Add in the thirty cents you are actually worth and that runs to quite a sum. (Sergeant Jelal)

In boot camp they weren't even apes:

You apes--No, not 'apes'; you don't rate that much. You pitiful mob of sickly monkeys...you sunken-chested, slack-bellied, drooling refugees from apron strings. In my life I never saw such a disgraceful huddle of momma's spoiled little darlings... I had a better set of wooden soldiers when I was six. (Sergeant Zim)

             - Robert A. Heinlein (1907-1988)

            _Starship Troopers_ (c 1959)

But then this was written in the days prior to 'ape' and monkey' (or waterbuffalo for that matter) were judged racial epithets.

--

Matt Hickman

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mike stone wrote:

>>From: ddavitt ddavitt@netcom.ca

>

>>I came away with the impression of Don as being one of the less

>>admirable characters in the juveniles simply because he was ready to play all

>>ends

>>against the middle to achieve his own ends.

>

>Is he wrong to do so?

>

>Is there anyone in particular that he _owes_ any loyalty to?

>

>-

Well, i could argue that Earth would have been the logical place...but perhaps it isn't a logical decision. Reasons are that his father was from Earth and Don had spent seven of his formative years there. I think that Heinlein had to have Don as neutral because of the War of Independence parallels; Earth/Britain had to be shown as unsympathetic ( bookleggers, security staff who murder) in order to allow the historical story to unfold. As I said, the oath Don takes when he joins up sounds as if it's based on American traditions.

Don has my sympathy for his lack of roots; it's one of the reasons he enlists; to give himself a 'family' but I don't think patriotism drove him to become a soldier. In a juvenile this is unusual; more realistic perhaps but a far cry from the three in RSG.

Jane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BPRAL22169 wrote:

>>I came away with the impression of Don as being one of the less

>>admirable characters in the juveniles simply because he was ready to play all

>>ends

>>against the middle

>

>This is also something I see as part of the story structure. Don Harvey is a

>"man without a country" - not as a punishment, but simply because he has no

>natural place to put his loyalties that we do because of accidents of our

>birth. The ends he is trying to achieve are to get back to his family, which

>is admirable enough, I guess -- but the story decision point, or anagnorsis, is

>a deliberate, adult decision to give loyalty and support to a struggle he

>believes is right. And that I think is extremely admirable.

>Bill

Looking then at ST, Rico's anagnorisis (you missed out an 'i' ;-)) is two stage; first when he gets over the hump ( page 84 of 215 ) and second when he goes career ( page 140). He is in a slightly different situation than Don because the enemy is more clear cut; the Bugs are not human and they seem to have no right on their side. In BP, we are shown Jack, a nice, friendly boy, who is as determined to fight for his planet as any Venerian will be. He has given his loyalty, made his decision and we can't fault him for that.

In some ways it doesn't matter why he enlists; to find a refuge or out of patriotism; he is willing to die and that's sufficient...but I can't help thinking that he might not have quite reached that point that Rico does when he discovers _why_ he's fighting, long after he's enlisted. maybe by the end of the book, maybe after he's been a soldier for a while...but when he takes the oath? I don't think so.

Interesting to compare the brief few pages describing Don in the army with the much longer descriptions in ST; boiled down, they're both identical.

Jane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:30:59 -0500, ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>

insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:

>In some ways it doesn't matter why he enlists; to find a refuge or out of

>patriotism; he is willing to die and that's sufficient...but I can't help thinking

>that he might not have quite reached that point that Rico does when he discovers

>_why_ he's fighting, long after he's enlisted. maybe by the end of the book, maybe

>after he's been a soldier for a while...but when he takes the oath? I don't think

>so.

I don't think so either. But there is something magical about the oath. Most who has taken it will tell you the same thing whether they wanted to or just had to. Once you've said "(I) do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge (my duties) so help me God," you are either changed in some not quite measurable way, or you have forsworn yourself.

As some others have pointed out, when your time is up, you don't get to take an oath saying "Okay, I won't do that any more, now."

--

Jon

News-Group postings are like lingerie on a woman:

The briefer the better.

Anon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pete LaGrange wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 19:22:48 -0500, jon ogden <jonogden@ogdenco.net>

>wrote:

>

>>But there is something magical about the

>>oath. Most who has taken it will tell you the same thing whether they

>>wanted to or just had to. Once you've said "(I) do solemnly swear (or

>>affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United

>>States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear

>>true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation

>>freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that

>>I will well and faithfully discharge (my duties) so help me God," you

>>are either changed in some not quite measurable way, or you have

>>forsworn yourself.

>

>It's one of those moments I will never forget.

>

>--

>

>Pete Lagrange

So, the oath that Don takes is more or less the same as the US Army one ( except for the name of the nation of course).

And, ironically the one that Rico takes puts him on the enemy side as far as Don is concerned ( assuming the same time line which I don't think it is <g>). He swears to, "uphold and defend the Constitution of the Federation." Interesting to put them side by side and compare them. Rico's oath is much longer but essentially they are the same; he just gets a reward ( or another responsibility?) at the end of his service.

Jane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:03:44 -0500, ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>wrote:

>

>So, the oath that Don takes is more or less the same as the US Army one (

>except for the name of the nation of course).

>And, ironically the one that Rico takes puts him on the enemy side as far

>as Don is concerned ( assuming the same time line which I don't think it i

s ><g>). He swears to, "uphold and defend the Constitution of the

>Federation."

>Interesting to put them side by side and compare them. Rico's oath is much

>longer but essentially they are the same; he just gets a reward ( or

>another responsibility?) at the end of his service.

The thing that struck me was what I was taking an oath to, not a man or even a nation but to a piece of paper. The Law...almost has a mystical ring to it. Seems a great time in history, to me, when oaths are taken to ideas such as freedom and equality.

--

Pete Lagrange

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Seems a great time in history, to me, when oaths

>are taken to ideas such as freedom and equality.

Personally, I agree. This is a very Enlightenment Era thing though. It's funny how much the US is still, in some ways (though definitely not in others) a philosophical "snapshot" of 1789.

Bill [Patterson]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:20:30 GMT, Pete LaGrange

<oldman1961@hotmail.com>wrote:

>

>The thing that struck me was what I was taking an oath to, not a man

>or even a nation but to a piece of paper. The Law...almost has a

>mystical ring to it. Seems a great time in history, to me, when oaths

>are taken to ideas such as freedom and equality.

Truth and more. I've taken that oath and one other, and they *both* roll over you like avalanches. But there's nothing I felt to be "mystical" about either of them. In either case, the purpose was to secure loyalty to principles -- the one, government under law, *restrained* by law to the defense of individual rights; the other, the standards of conduct required to safeguard the health and dignity of the people for whom (and *to* whom) you're being made responsible.

Very straightforward, very practical, very "of this earth." No, not mystical at all.

[Bill Williams]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Interesting to compare the brief few pages describing Don in the army with

>the much

>longer descriptions in ST; boiled down, they're both identical.

>

Yes -- I have a feeling ST wasn't written with the same approach to the moment of recognition -- due to heinlein's thesis, Juan Rico's process of development is more drawn out than Don Harvey's -- but, as you point out, they are the same.

Bill [Patterson]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jon ogden wrote:

>On 08 Mar 2001 22:53:23 GMT, majoroz@aol.com (Major oz) insisted that

>the sooth was being spoken here:

>>.....came close in the Star Trek world-killer movie, with Kirk's ex-honey and

>>their son.

>>

>Which had as it's villian, an evil mutant genius from the near (as>opposed to far) east.

>

IIRC (from the original TV episode), Khan was supposed to be a Sikh. This faith originates in India, and most of its adherents are of Indian descent. Doesn't "near east" normally refer to points a lot further west?

Or were you referring to Ricardo Montalban?

Simon

--

Progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 06:56:18 -0000, "Simon Jester"

<simonjester@freeuk.com>insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:

>IIRC (from the original TV episode), Khan was supposed to be a Sikh. This

>faith originates in India, and most of its adherents are of Indian descent.

>Doesn't "near east" normally refer to points a lot further west?

Did a quick check. The United States Agency for International Development says they have a presence in the following Near East Countries: Bangladesh, Cambodia, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon, Mongolia, Morocco, Nepal, Philippines, Sri Lanka, West Bank/Gaza.

However, a couple of other sites that referred to a Middle East as well, put India in there. And assigned the Near East to points further west. So I would have been wiser to refer to the middle east rather than emphasizing the symmetry of near and far.

Any idea whether "Khan" is a name likely to appear in the hindu-paki-stani area?

>Or were you referring to Ricardo Montalban?

LOL

--

Jon

A right without an attendant responsibility is as unreal as a sheet of paper which has only one side.

- Felix Morley

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jon ogden wrote:

>On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 06:56:18 -0000, "Simon Jester"

><simonjester@freeuk.com>insisted that the sooth was being spoken

>here:

>

>>IIRC (from the original TV episode), Khan was supposed to be a Sikh. This

>>faith originates in India, and most of its adherents are of Indian descent.

>>Doesn't "near east" normally refer to points a lot further west?

>

>Did a quick check. The United States Agency for International

>Development says they have a presence in the following Near East

>Countries: Bangladesh, Cambodia, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Jordan,

>Lebanon, Mongolia, Morocco, Nepal, Philippines, Sri Lanka, West

>Bank/Gaza.

>

>However, a couple of other sites that referred to a Middle East as

>well, put India in there. And assigned the Near East to points

>further west. So I would have been wiser to refer to the middle east

>rather than emphasizing the symmetry of near and far.

>

>Any idea whether "Khan" is a name likely to appear in the

>hindu-paki-stani area?

Yes, but (afaik) not normally with Sikhs; it seems to be a surname found mostly among Muslims, eg. a well known (Pakistani) cricketer called Imran Khan.

>

>>Or were you referring to Ricardo Montalban?

>

>LOL

>

>--

>Jon

>A right without an attendant responsibility is

>as unreal as a sheet of paper which has only one side.

> - Felix Morley

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From: "Simon Jester" simonjester@freeuk.com

>jon ogden wrote:

>>Any idea whether "Khan" is a name likely to appear in the

>>hindu-paki-stani area?

>

>Yes, but (afaik) not normally with Sikhs; it seems to be a surname found

>mostly among Muslims, eg. a well known (Pakistani) cricketer called Imran

>Khan.

Rule of thumb

Mr and Mrs Patel are Hindus

Mr and Mrs Khan are Moslems

Mr Singh and Mrs Kaur are Sikhs

(That last is a bit misleading inasmuch as "Singh" and "Kaur" are not strictly names at all, but the Sikh equivalents of "Mr" and "Mrs". So "Mr Singh" is a tautology, while "Mrs Singh" would be a contradiction in terms)

--

Mike Stone - Peterborough England

"The English people are like the English beer.

Froth on top, dregs at the bottom, the middle excellent" - Voltaire

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From: jon ogden jonogden@ogdenco.net

>Any idea whether "Khan" is a name likely to appear in the

>hindu-paki-stani area?

That's putting it mildly.

Since the UK started getting large numbers of immigrants from the Indian sub-continent, it has become one of the commonest names in the British phone book, up there with "Smith" and "Patel"

--

Mike Stone - Peterborough England

"The English people are like the English beer.

Froth on top, dregs at the bottom, the middle excellent" - Voltaire

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 00:40:10 GMT, Pete LaGrange

<oldman1961@hotmail.com>wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 19:22:48 -0500, jon ogden <jonogden@ogdenco.net>

>wrote:

>

>>But there is something magical about the

>>oath. Most who has taken it will tell you the same thing whether they

>>wanted to or just had to. Once you've said "(I) do solemnly swear (or

>>affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United

>>States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear

>>true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation

>>freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that

>>I will well and faithfully discharge (my duties) so help me God," you

>>are either changed in some not quite measurable way, or you have

>>forsworn yourself.

>

>

>It's one of those moments I will never forget.

I'll second that...I don't know which was more memorable...the time I took the oath of enlistment, or when I had to step in front of the Colonel and raise my hand to be commissioned a Second Lieutenant....

ck

-- Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP,Member,PGBFH,KC5EVN

Email address dump file for spam: reply to ckrin at Iamerica dot net

F*S=k (Freedom times Security equals a constant: the more

security you have, the less freedom! Niven's Fourth Law)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:03:27 GMT, charles krin <ckrin@iamerica.net>

insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:

>I'll second that...I don't know which was more memorable...the time I

>took the oath of enlistment, or when I had to step in front of the

>Colonel and raise my hand to be commissioned a Second Lieutenant....

My CO wanted to recommend me for OCS, but I had a rocker by then - Didn't want to accept a demotion. <grin>

--

Jon

A right without an attendant responsibility is

as unreal as a sheet of paper which has only one side.

- Felix Morley

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mike stone wrote:

...

>Rule of thumb

>

>Mr and Mrs Patel are Hindus

>Mr and Mrs Khan are Moslems

>Mr Singh and Mrs Kaur are Sikhs

>

>(That last is a bit misleading inasmuch as "Singh" and "Kaur" are not strictly

>names at all, but the Sikh equivalents of "Mr" and "Mrs". So "Mr Singh" is a

>tautology, while "Mrs Singh" would be a contradiction in terms) ...

My understanding was that Singh and Kaur are used as middle names; I believe the literal meanings are "Lion" and "Princess", respectively. The Sikhs I have known have all had other surnames, though I have heard of people called Singh.

Simon

--

Progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jane wrote:

<snip>

>Would the Don at the start of the book, going with the flow to suit his own

>personal ends (reaching his parents) have thought that way? I don't think so. The

>fact that he sets aside his efforts to reach his parents in favour of putting his

>life on the line to protect his native planet from the invaders is a significant

>sign of maturity IMO.

Yes, but he really had no choice did he? I mean, there was no way he could reach his parents anyway, so there wasn't any deliberate setting aside. He just *had* to grow up very fast and think for himself, and I agree that this was a sign of maturity on Don's part.

>If you look at Heinlein's juveniles, it's hard to find one where someone fairly

>significant doesn't die violently; Star Beast possibly....but that's about it.

I can't think of another.

>Oh and Sir Isaac gets my vote as the most fully realised alien in Heinlein; love

>that bit at the end where he defends Don against the person trying to bully him.

Shucks! Me too.

Sean

******************

Don Harv. - RAH nod.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From: Gaeltach

>>If you look at Heinlein's juveniles, it's hard to find one where someone

>fairly

>>significant doesn't die violently; Star Beast possibly....but that's about

>it.

>

>I can't think of another.

The Rolling Stones, although Hazel came close.

--

Mr. President, we must not allow a mine shaft gap!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LV Poker Player wrote:

>>From: Gaeltach

>

>>>If you look at Heinlein's juveniles, it's hard to find one where someone

>>fairly

>>>significant doesn't die violently; Star Beast possibly....but that's about

>>it.

>>

>>I can't think of another.

>

>The Rolling Stones, although Hazel came close.

>

>

Well, not violent but lots of deaths from the measles remember and looked bad for Doctor Edith for a while.

Jane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Jane wrote:

>thought that way? I don't think so. The

>>fact that he sets aside his efforts to reach his parents in favour of

>putting his

>>life on the line to protect his native planet from the invaders is a

>significant

>>sign of maturity IMO.

>

Sorry to nitpick, but Venus was _not_ Don's native planet - though it was his mother's.

He was born in space, and his father on Earth. His identity documents show no nationality. The ultimate "cosmopolitan".

He puts his life on the line for an _adopted_ homeland, not a "native" one. But this does not invalidate what you say about his growing maturity.

--

Mike Stone - Peterborough England

"The English people are like the English beer.

Froth on top, dregs at the bottom, the middle excellent" - Voltaire

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mike stone wrote:

>>

>

>Sorry to nitpick, but Venus was _not_ Don's native planet - though it was his

>mother's.

>

>He was born in space, and his father on Earth. His identity documents show no

>nationality. The ultimate "cosmopolitan".

>

>He puts his life on the line for an _adopted_ homeland, not a "native" one. But

>this does not invalidate what you say about his growing maturity.

>--

>

Nitpicking is the second favourite sport on afh :-) Just to join in, I'll nitpick back at you.

My youngest daughter was born in Canada but is both Canadian and English because of her place of birth and parents' place of birth. In the same way, Don was simultaneously native to Earth and Venus and he spent his childhood, at least in part, on Venus. Thus, Venus is his native planet. Or one of them.

Jane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Gaeltach" <gaeltach@fan.net.au>wrote in message

news:3AAB5AEB.ADE5880B@fan.net.au...

>

(snip)

>>If you look at Heinlein's juveniles, it's hard to find one where someone fairly

>>significant doesn't die violently; Star Beast possibly....but that's about it.

>

>I can't think of another.

>

This intrigued me.

True not all are 'significant', but *every* "juvenile" from RSG to PoM does have deaths, (or almost death), or deaths occurring before the story, but having importance to the protagonist or to the plot:

Rocket Ship Galileo: the corpse of the apparent saboteur in New Mexico (offstage) . the Nazis on the moon.

Space Cadet: the crew and passengers of the crashed training rocket; the crew of the PRS Pathfinder, the crew of the Gary, (too bad they didn't get Stinky too).

Red Planet: the Pottles and Mr. Hartley?. Beecher and Howe; possibly others in the firefight.

Starman Jones: Sam, Mr.Weberbauer

Between Planets: Old Charlie; Dr. Jefferson; the officer attempting to escape; many others in the rebellion, presumably.

Farmer In the Sky: Bill's mother (before the story, but significant); Peggy; Hank's parents; 20/30 thousand or so other colonists;

Tunnel in the Sky; Braun; Grant; Jock McGowan; PeeWee Schneider?

Time for the Stars: Uncle (what'shisname); Prudence, the psychiatrist, the Captain and many others.

Rolling Stones: No death, but Buster and Hazel almost died.

Star Beast: The ambassador who succumbed to some disease. (of course, this was strictly offstage)

Citizen of The Galaxy: Baslim, Grandmother. (Thorby's parents, again before the story but significant)

Have Space Suit, Will Travel: Fats and the other one; many wormfaces

Starship Troopers: Flores; a number of recruits and other troopers; The Lieutenant, (again before the story, but significant), many of the inhabitants of Buenos Aires, especially Juan's mother.

Podkayne of Mars: Mrs. Grew

I probably have overlooked some significant ones.

David Wright

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

David Wright wrote:

>

>Rolling Stones: No death, but Buster and Hazel almost died.

>

>

>

>Podkayne of Mars: Mrs. Grew

>

>I probably have overlooked some significant ones.

>

>David Wright

As I mentioned, several people die of the measles on the War God and Edith is quite ill with them; Roger gets it but by then there is a cure. Jo Jo dies too in POM. More significant in that book is that an 11 year old child kills; how that got by I don't know. Peewee kills a Wormface or two but they're aliens after all and Don't Really Count <g>.

Jane

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"ddavitt" <ddavitt@netcom.ca>wrote in message

news:3AAD1C7A.CC2BD6A1@netcom.ca...

>David Wright wrote:

>

(snip)

>As I mentioned, several people die of the measles on the War God and Edith is

>quite ill with them; Roger gets it but by then there is a cure.

Thanks, I overlooked the Neo-Measles epidemic. Thanks.

>Jo Jo dies too in POM. More significant in that book is that an 11 year old

>child kills; how that got by I don't know.

I guess that Putnam's editor wasn't as picky as Dogleash.

Peewee kills a Wormface or two but >they're aliens after all and Don't Really Count <g>.

>

GMTA. I started to say that myself, but I didn't because I am so sensitive :)>

David Wright

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:12:02 -0500, jon ogden <jonogden@ogdenco.net>

wrote:

>On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:03:27 GMT, charles krin <ckrin@iamerica.net>

>insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:

>

>

>>I'll second that...I don't know which was more memorable...the time I

>>took the oath of enlistment, or when I had to step in front of the

>>Colonel and raise my hand to be commissioned a Second Lieutenant....

>

>My CO wanted to recommend me for OCS, but I had a rocker by then -

>Didn't want to accept a demotion. <grin>

>

>--

Chuckle...I *had to accept* or get out of the service at that time...they don't allow doctors (or even medical students) to remain NCO's..

ck

--

Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP,Member,PGBFH,KC5EVN

Email address dump file for spam: reply to ckrin at Iamerica dot net

F*S=k (Freedom times Security equals a constant: the more

security you have, the less freedom! Niven's Fourth Law)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:12:16 GMT, charles krin <ckrin@iamerica.net>

insisted that the sooth was being spoken here:

>>--

>Chuckle...I *had to accept* or get out of the service at that

>time...they don't allow doctors (or even medical students) to remain

>NCO's..

Of course they don't. Military doctors get to see semi-naked officer's wives. Can you imagine the loss of face it would entail if the colonel knew his wife had be viewed, let alone touched, by a noncom? Note please, that I am only referring to what the colonel knows, not to what actually happens. :o)

--

Jon

A right without an attendant responsibility is

as unreal as a sheet of paper which has only one side.

- Felix Morley

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>My CO wanted to recommend me for OCS, but I had a rocker by then -

>Didn't want to accept a demotion. <grin>

......sometimes you have to descend to the valley in order to reach the higher mountains beyond......

..and: I agree that the second time around was, to me, more inspiring (perhaps because, by that time, I had more of a sense of history)

What REALLY irritated me was that, at the age of 55, taking the (almost) same oath for the Peace Corps, most of the squishy minded huggers in my class objected to having to take the oath.

cheers

oz

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 11 Mar 2001 19:06:00 GMT, majoroz@aol.com (Major oz) insisted that

the sooth was being spoken here:

>......sometimes you have to descend to the valley in order to reach the higher

>mountains beyond......

A bunch of us khaki-wearers started discussing this one night. The concensus was that a noncom's rank provided the same control over personal destiny that the equivalent paygrade minus 2 did. I argued for minus 3, by the way. I felt that no other grade had as little right to determine who what when how or where than a private, including PFCs. You needed to be an E-4 to have the freedom of an O1.

I was outvoted, the officers voted to a man to make pfc = 2nd lt. But whether I had the perks of a captain or a major, that wasn't a mountain I wanted to climb again.

>..and: I agree that the second time around was, to me, more inspiring (perhaps

>because, by that time, I had more of a sense of history)

>

>What REALLY irritated me was that, at the age of 55, taking the (almost) same >oath for the Peace Corps, most of the squishy minded huggers in my class >objected to having to take the oath.

I am shocked, but not surprised.

--

Jon

A right without an attendant responsibility is

as unreal as a sheet of paper which has only one side.

- Felix Morley

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:20:30 GMT, Pete LaGrange

<oldman1961@hotmail.com>wrote:

>The thing that struck me was what I was taking an oath to, not a man

>or even a nation but to a piece of paper. The Law...almost has a

>mystical ring to it. Seems a great time in history, to me, when oaths

>are taken to ideas such as freedom and equality.

We spent a bit of time analyzing the oath, prior to my graduation/commissioning. The thing that always stuck im my mind was that we swore an oath to defend not a country, a political process, nor even a people, but an abstract from which all those descend.

/mnt/brain/clue.tar.gz: No such file or directory

internet extremist at large TINC

wiz {at} lart {dot} com "What evil shall I do, today?"

TINLC (If there were, you couldn't tell if I were part of it or not)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mike stone wrote:

>Rule of thumb

>

>Mr and Mrs Patel are Hindus

There are almost exactly a coumn of Patels in my phone book.

>Mr and Mrs Khan are Moslems

There are half a column of Khans.

>Mr Singh and Mrs Kaur are Sikhs

There are a column and a half of Singhs. There are four Kaurs.

>(That last is a bit misleading inasmuch as "Singh"

>and "Kaur" are not strictly names at all, but the

>Sikh equivalents of "Mr" and "Mrs". So "Mr Singh"

>is a tautology, while "Mrs Singh" would be a

>contradiction in terms)

Once they get entered into the system as names here, they are names, regardless of what they were in the old country. Mars is almost as common as Kaur here, that way.

Tian Harter

http://user.aol.com/rahfan147

There are three cities in California with their own

gas utilities: Coalinga, Palo Alto, and Long Beach.

The FBI has changed the name of its surveillance

software program Carnivore to DCS1000.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jon ogden wrote:

>I don't think so either. But there is something magical about the

>oath. Most who has taken it will tell you the same thing whether they

>wanted to or just had to. Once you've said "(I) do solemnly swear (or

>affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United

>States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear

>true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation

>freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that

>I will well and faithfully discharge (my duties) so help me God," you

>are either changed in some not quite measurable way, or you have

>forsworn yourself.

I remember last fall seeing Gore on TV saying he had taken the oath six times.

I can clearly remember doing it twice. Both times it was "the Constitution of the United States and California."

Tian Harter

http://user.aol.com/rahfan147

There are three cities in California with their own

gas utilities: Coalinga, Palo Alto, and Long Beach.

The FBI has changed the name of its surveillance

software program Carnivore to DCS1000.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

==========================================================================

You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

ddavitt: Hi Dave

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny, Hi Jane

ddavitt: Think Ginny isn't actually here

ddavitt: Must be away from the screen

DavidWrightSr: Unfortunately, I am not going to be able to participate tonight. I have been working solid for two weeks and I am bone tired. I have just logged on so that I could record the session.

DavidWrightSr: I might be able to drop in later.

ddavitt: Sorry to hear that but I sympathise; bad night with the baby

ddavitt: I will prop open my eyes

DavidWrightSr: BTW, I enjoyed your articles in THJ. Just got through reading them.

SAcademy: Hello all. I am trying out point and speak.

ddavitt: Thanks; I get a real kick out of that!

ddavitt: Still a novel experience for me ( no pun)

ddavitt: Hi SA

SAcademy: Your first publication?

ddavitt: Third article in the Journal

SAcademy: Sorry. I missed that.

SAcademy: Someone's coming.

ddavitt: Not that exciting:-)

ddavitt: i heard the door; love that sound effect

SAcademy: Did that come through?

ddavitt: Yes; must have been someone on both our buddy lists

ddavitt: i have lots from these chats but I don't know who they all are sometimes

ddavitt: i add them in case I ever need to do the mailing about the chats

SAcademy: This thing is confusing me--it doesn't print here on my screen.

ddavitt: How does it work SA?

ddavitt: voice activated?

ddavitt: you are showing up fine for me

SAcademy: You talk into a mike, and it's transmuted into print. I think that's the way it works.

ddavitt: It's doing very well then

SageMerlin has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi there

SAcademy: Mostly I'm typing. I don't like talking to myself!

SAcademy: Hello, Sage.

ddavitt: It must feel strange

SageMerlin: Good evening

SAcademy: It certainly does.

SageMerlin: I am terribly sorry I missed the meeting last Sunday

SageMerlin: My apologies to all

ddavitt: Didn't Dan in Door into Summer look at a machine like that?

SAcademy: No one here but us chicks.

ddavitt: But the words that sound the same but are spelled differently threw him

SAcademy: I don't remember whether it did.

SAcademy: I haven't finished teaching the program yet.

ddavitt: It would have to be a very clever machine to interpret what you say and spell it right

SAcademy: I think some of the words have to be spelled out for it.

SAcademy: Names, for example.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

ddavitt: good idea though

ddavitt: Hi Bill

BPRAL22169: Hello all.

SAcademy: Evening, Bill.

BPRAL22169: Evening, Ginny.

SAcademy: I am sometimes working with point and speak.

BPRAL22169: I stopped by afh to see if there were any new posts -- nope, but I enjoyed the link to the Pape site.

BPRAL22169: Oh, I'm glad to see you have gotten that set up.

ddavitt: Is that Niafer on the throne?

BPRAL22169: No -- that's one of the queens courted by a member of the Fellowship of the Silver Stallion. They all dispersed after Manuel's disappearance.

ddavitt: I must read them sometime

BPRAL22169: She looks like she was drawn by Frank Frazetta, doesn't she?

SageMerlin: ????

SageMerlin: I am really confused.

ddavitt: That name sounds familiar but I can't place it

SageMerlin: What is the topic tonight

BPRAL22169: Start with Figures of Earth, then (we're talking about Cabell books, Sage)

ddavitt: Sorry; we are off track; bad Bill!

SageMerlin: Who what???

ddavitt: We are contrasting Don harvey and Juan Rico

ddavitt: It's an afh thread Sage

BPRAL22169: The Silver Stallion (or skip it), then Jurgen; you may want to skip to The High Place after that, then Somethign About Eve, and wind up with The Cream of the Jest

ddavitt: We haven't started yet

ddavitt: Tho i suppose we should

BPRAL22169: That way you will get the books that Heinlein seems to have taken the most from, plus enough other stuff to know what Cabell is talking about.

ddavitt: How is the reading for the Rosenberg chat going?

ddavitt: Thanks Bill, I've scribbled that down

SAcademy: If you can read your scribbles, you're better than I am.

BPRAL22169: Ballantine printed the medieval fantasies in paperback in the 70's.

ddavitt: I can't always:-)

BPRAL22169: Hey -- that's why God made Logs.

ddavitt: true!

ddavitt: Dave; you're a divine inspiration

ddavitt: :-):-)

SAcademy: I am going to try to talk a smiley.

ddavitt: ga

Doc4Kidz has entered the room.

SAcademy: Did that work?

ddavitt: No:-(

ddavitt: What do you have to do?

ddavitt: Hi Doc

SAcademy: Oh, well, you can't have everything.

Doc4Kidz: hello, all

SAcademy: Hello. Good evening.

BPRAL22169: There are many worse things than not being able to point-and-speak emoticons.

SAcademy: Does yours sometimes forget to scroll?

BPRAL22169: (one of them being able to point-and-speak emoticons)

ddavitt: Are you another smiley despiser Bill?

BPRAL22169: I don't care for emoticons.

ddavitt: They serve a purpose

BPRAL22169: Shakespeare seems to have gotten along without them.

ddavitt: or maybe i'm just a happy sort of person:-):-):-):-):-):-)

BPRAL22169: urk.

SageMerlin: None of which has anything to do with ST or SOTG

Doc4Kidz: (8-D}

ddavitt: SOTG?

SageMerlin: Okay C

ddavitt: Nope; BT

ddavitt: eek, BP!

BPRAL22169: LOL. it's Between Planets.

SageMerlin: Oh, my blushes

ddavitt: That'll teach me

ddavitt: OK, let's start then

SageMerlin: Whatever.....the road lies before us

BPRAL22169: But we can compare to Thorby, too -- probably not as much material.

ddavitt: Juan and Don; both the same..or not?

ddavitt: was juan a natural soldier as evinced by him choosing it as a career?

ddavitt: I don't see Don staying a soldier

SageMerlin: Juan was a volunteer....Don was "drafted"

ddavitt: Forced by circumstances, yes

BPRAL22169: But Don also chose it.

ddavitt: But there were always choices for him

ddavitt: trouble is, each one led to death in one direction

SageMerlin: No, Juan had choices

ddavitt: Notice that?

SAcademy: Had to take off the earphones and mike. They were too tight.

ddavitt: If he had gone back to earth he would be dead; they blew up the ship

SageMerlin: Juan chose to be a soldier....Don was thrust into a civil war.

SageMerlin: Who blew up the ship?

ddavitt: Civil? Colonial rather.

BPRAL22169: I tend to see them as making the same decision, but at different levels. Don is in the friends-of-my-friends level; Juan breaks through to species-loyalty at least. Maybe even a higher level.

ddavitt: Earth; they panicked

SageMerlin: I disagree strongly.

ddavitt: And if he had stayed in the compound he would probably have died too

ddavitt: With whom?

SageMerlin: Johnny had no idea what he was getting into when he joined up

ddavitt: Agreed; did it thru peer pressure

SageMerlin: It was simply the thing to do....peer pressured by a relationship

SageMerlin: ditto

SAcademy: I might have to leave any moment--we're having a thunderstorm.

ddavitt: carl and carmen; he was the weaker team member at that point

SageMerlin: Johnny grows up into social responsibility

ddavitt: OK Ginny, hope not

SageMerlin: Don has it in spades from the get go

ddavitt: Hmm...he seems pretty innocent to me

ddavitt: He didn't even know a war was imminent; but his friend did

SageMerlin: Hardly, remember how he immediately rushes to Sir Issac's assistance.

ddavitt: He is just trying to do what his parents say

ddavitt: That was just being friendly

SageMerlin: At the beginning....but as soon as he realizes that he is in the bigs, he plays his hands they way they are dealt him

SageMerlin: Yes, he falls into it by accident

SageMerlin: But in the end, is there any doubt that Don is the better soldier?

ddavitt: He gets sick of being pushed around;

ddavitt: yes. lots

ddavitt: Why do you think that?

ddavitt: Don is an amateur in a way...no training

SageMerlin: Because Don operates without technology, without team support, mostly alone or in small groups and AGAINST other human being.

SageMerlin: He is an amateur only in the beginning.

ddavitt: He's a slide in quick, knife in the ribs, slide out again; jungle fighter

SageMerlin: By the time he reaches Sir Issac's nest, everyone is AFRAID of him because he is the real thing...a serious jungle fighter

ddavitt: unusual for a juvenile

SageMerlin: Anyone want to go three rounds with one of Merril's Marauders?

ddavitt: He has the reach for a weapon instinct when he is threatened

SageMerlin: My father did. He doesn't recommend it.

ddavitt: Who are they?

SageMerlin: World War Two Jungle Fighters

ddavitt: Thanks.

SageMerlin: Perhaps the toughest unit ever birthed by the US Army

BPRAL22169: One of the things that strikes me over and over about Heinlein's juveniles is how precisely he deals with the idea of child-developmental crises that were just then being written up by people like Piaget and Ellis. Both Johnny Rico and Don Harvey move out of self-in-peer-group to self-in-self.

ddavitt: They learn to stand alone you mean?

SageMerlin: They become self-possessed.

SageMerlin: They own themselves.

BPRAL22169: Yes. In the deconstructive sense of that word.

ddavitt: Not sure; Don joins up precisely because he feels lost and wants a family

SageMerlin: Is that really true?

ddavitt: Juan finds a new, even closer family within his unit

SageMerlin: In fact, he is coming from a strong, close-knit family.,

ddavitt: It says so in the book....

SageMerlin: Does it really? Where?

ddavitt: Don? hasn't seen his parents since he was 11

ddavitt: hang on

SageMerlin: Confusion. I am talking about Johnny

SageMerlin: My fault

ddavitt: Ah, yes

ddavitt: OK

SageMerlin: But I strongly disagree about Don even if it say it in the book.

ddavitt: I see this happening a lot tonight <g>

BPRAL22169: (I still read the title of the afh thread as DonJuan...)

ddavitt: Why is that?

ddavitt: I meant you to!

SageMerlin: He cuts and runs because the other choice is to get burned down where he stands

ddavitt: No one mentioned it and I thought it was quite funny

SageMerlin: Who is Don Juan....which book is he in?

BPRAL22169: larf larf.

ddavitt: But it says he might have joined up just to belong somewhere

SageMerlin: Let's go back to the action in the book.

BPRAL22169: The thread on afh was titled "Don v. Juan," and I always read it as "DonJuan"

SageMerlin: But who was Don Juan?

SageMerlin: I don't remember any characters by that name in RAH Land

BPRAL22169: IRL

SageMerlin: IRL

ddavitt: Enlisting held another attraction; it would give pattern to his life'

SageMerlin: IRL?

BPRAL22169: Spanish roue

ddavitt: He gets mentioned in SIASL

BPRAL22169: "In Real Life."

SageMerlin: Is that like caviar?

ddavitt: remember/ own private hell

BPRAL22169: Comaprable to Casanova de Seingault.

BPRAL22169: Basis for the opera "Don Giovanni" by Mozart.

ddavitt: have yo really never heard of him?

ddavitt: it's a phrase; 'he's a real Don Juan"

SageMerlin: I really don't see what BP or ST has to do with an Opera

ddavitt: Slicked back hair, medallion,

BPRAL22169: It doesn't have anything to do with either. That's why it was remarkable -- cognitive dissonance.

SageMerlin: Everyone gets mentioned in SIASL

ddavitt: It was just my obviuosly feeble attempt at a joke.

ddavitt: Don had many motives for joining up

ddavitt: A newly emerged loyalty as he finally decided to be for Venus

SageMerlin: Revenge, redemption, resumption of his interrupted journey,

ddavitt: revenge yes; for Charlie

SageMerlin: restoration of rights and privileges

SageMerlin: and what

BPRAL22169: But he could have sat out the war washing dishes in the Chinese lunchroom.

SageMerlin: Not after they burned it down

ddavitt: His journey got put on hold; he gave up thinking for himself when he joined up

BPRAL22169: or whatever came next after that.

SageMerlin: Here is what I think:

ddavitt: He got put in a camp Bill and was about to be truth drugged

SageMerlin: In BP, Robert comes as close as anyone ever has to defining the actual spirit of a real combat soldier.

ddavitt: Which would have put isobel on the spot

BPRAL22169: Right. Thanks for jogging my memory.

SageMerlin: Isobel. Thank you.

ddavitt: No prob.

SageMerlin: So, in many respects, Don has no alternatives to his course of action

ddavitt: I agree that in a few paragraphs in BP he has the essence of whole chapters of ST

BPRAL22169: "Combat" soldier or "citizen" combat-soldier?

SageMerlin: No, many so called citizen soldiers never see combat

SageMerlin: 80% of the men in the revolutionary war, for example.

SageMerlin: 20% did all the fighting

SageMerlin: No blame.

ddavitt: Don is one of the 20% here

BPRAL22169: Yes, but is there a difference in psychology between say a Roman legionnaire and an American combat soldier?

SageMerlin: Most of them were just not in the right place at the right time.

SageMerlin: Maybe once. Now, I don't know

SageMerlin: I am afraid of professional armies

ddavitt: rico always was; if you drop you fight

BPRAL22169: That conforms to a basic law of business management: 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people.

ddavitt: look at Iunio Bill; he seemed to share a lot with Don and Rico

SageMerlin: Since I am still at work, the only one, among 10, I guess that's true

BPRAL22169: ok, so it's 10% in your case.

ddavitt: Bad food, nasty officers, no sleep...

BPRAL22169: Well, there is something universal about soldiering in time of war.

ddavitt: some things never change maybe

Doc4Kidz: (I just got home)

ddavitt: Good trip?

ddavitt: Don and Iunio both fight up close too

SageMerlin: Ignorance: who is Iunio?

ddavitt: Rico is perhaps a bit more isolated withing his suit.

ddavitt: Sorry; Roman soldier from HSSWT

ddavitt: At the end; he is brought forward for the trial

ddavitt: AG did a great post about him on afh recently

BPRAL22169: Iunio is in Have Space Suit.

SageMerlin: Thank You

ddavitt: Going back to my original thought; will Don stay a soldier?

ddavitt: He is on his way to Mars, a wedding, possibly emigration in the pathfinder

ddavitt: It was just interim for him, not a career as it was for Rico

BPRAL22169: Don seems to have a diplomatic talent.

ddavitt: ?

ddavitt: He gets people to like him you mean?

ddavitt: Isoble falls for him on sight

BPRAL22169: Yes -- and Sir Isaac Newton

ddavitt: I love that dragon!

BPRAL22169: That's an incredibly valuable faculty. He could easily be tapped for the diplomatic corps.

ddavitt: maybe

SageMerlin: Diplomacy?

SageMerlin: Are you serious?

BPRAL22169: Not frontline diplomat, but staff.

ddavitt: Well, I got the impression that the pathfinder was a colony ship

SageMerlin: By the time he gets to Sir Issac's nest, Don is a completely different person....remember who they choose to hang onto the dead man's switch]

BPRAL22169: Besides, who is better to be in the diplomatic corps than a jungle fighter?

ddavitt: Tho with the situation between the various planets I wonder how soon it would be ready to go

ddavitt: Does BP fit with any other book?

BPRAL22169: It seems to relate to Starman Jones.

ddavitt: logic of Empire doesn't have dragons does it?

BPRAL22169: But the general notion of the revolt of colonial planets fits in with the Future History.

ddavitt: i know Space cadet had the Little People instead

ddavitt: Yes; Red Planet and Poddy have mars revolting

ddavitt: Possibly the same universe

ddavitt: Venus is different in Poddy tho

ddavitt: Maybe Heinlein was saying revolt was ineveitable no matter what the timeline

BPRAL22169: There is no warp drive in Poddy. They spend their travel time in Hohmann transfer orbits.

ddavitt: The weapon at the end of BP is not heard of again either

SageMerlin: Here is an interesting point.

SageMerlin: Maybe

BPRAL22169: Oh, the dome cap force field? He used it in Pied Piper, I think.

SageMerlin: To my recollection

ddavitt: I kept being tempted to look at the colonial theme but i restrained myself

BPRAL22169: It's an old Doc Smith trope.

SageMerlin: BP is the only book that has an actually space battle in it.

ddavitt: I haven't read any of the stinkeroos thank you for asking!

BPRAL22169: The colonial theme is very centripetal -- leads out to a lot of other books.

ddavitt: yep it certainly does

BPRAL22169: Nope -- Citizen of the Galaxy

SageMerlin: Good call

ddavitt: wonder if it would have if he hadn't been American?

SageMerlin: Can't believe I forgot that one

BPRAL22169: nyah-nyah!

SageMerlin: Nobody's perfect

SageMerlin: Except my boss

SageMerlin: boss

BPRAL22169: (Sage wrote a long and good essay on CotG, too)

SageMerlin: That wasn't me. That was my more benevolent twin

ddavitt: Where?

BPRAL22169: Is it still available? Dave Silver would know, but he's not here.

ddavitt: is it online; in the Journal?

SageMerlin: It was on the old web site.

ddavitt: It sounds familair

BPRAL22169: Let me see if my old link works.

SageMerlin: This is embarrassing

ddavitt: Might have seen it there; if it's the one I'm thinking of, I enjoyed it.

ddavitt: Why?

SageMerlin: Sort of like my poetry...which is scattered around the house on scraps of paper...

ddavitt: I have some of that too...but I don't show it to anyone

SageMerlin: wise of us

ddavitt: But since you begged me to..ahem <clears throat>

ddavitt: joking...

BPRAL22169: It coulnd't find the essay, even though the link is still active.

BPRAL22169: brb

ddavitt: While Bill looks, I jsut spotted a chapter heading in ST that is in the prologue of a Rosenberg book; the john paul Jones quote about an officer's duties

SageMerlin: God, I hope someone has a copy....because I don't.

ddavitt: Not anywhere

ddavitt: i hope you can find it

ddavitt: Is that the page where some links didn't work if you weren't on Aol?

ddavitt: Had articles on Coventry and Long watch too?

ddavitt: And IWFNE?

SageMerlin: I have been through eight or nine computers since then

ddavitt: No hard copy?

SageMerlin: Okay, back on track folks.

ddavitt: I always print off; doesn't feel real otherwise:-)

SageMerlin: If what's his name could rewrite the decline and fall of the roman empire, I can dredge up a little essay.

ddavitt: So, why don't you see Don as dimplomatic?

ddavitt: Sure you can.

SageMerlin: (I say that knowing that David for sure has a copy of it somewhere.)

ddavitt: What about the scene with the ring at the end?

ddavitt: He gives it to Sir isaac;very clever move

ddavitt: Then takes it back and hands it over himself; a real showman

ddavitt: That scene is one of the most memorable in the book

BPRAL22169: I think David wrote the essay on IWFNE

ddavitt: ST was less cumulative; BP is a story that builds to a crescendo and to me, that's it

ddavitt: So it is that page? i saw it quite recently

ddavitt: here;

ddavitt: http://members.aol.com/rahweb/citizen/citizen1.htm

BPRAL22169: David has apparently been revising the Book Clique Cafe page

ddavitt: is that it?

BPRAL22169: Yes, that appears to be it. It's the old page.

SageMerlin: This is the very item. I lthink I better jot it down.

BPRAL22169: For some reason I can't get the url in my buffer

ddavitt: No need; it's logged:-)

ddavitt: <blows on fingers modestly>

ddavitt: OK, as we seem to have hit a pause, shall we break for 5?

BPRAL22169: Ron Harrison is on his way in.

Dehede011 has entered the room.

ddavitt: great!

ddavitt: Hi Ron

Dehede011: Evening Ms Jane etal.

ddavitt: We are just considering a break but feel free to start off a new line of thought

BPRAL22169: They saw you coming so decided it was time to scatter.

SAcademy: Good evening Ron

Dehede011: Great ideas, Hi SA

ddavitt: We're talking about Don harvey from between planets and the other soldier, rico

Dehede011: Right, good subject.

ddavitt: Any others btw? thorby is sort of i suppose

ddavitt: We could also drag in Oscar

ddavitt: At least the Oscar at the start of GR

SAcademy: Thunder--gotta go.

ddavitt: Night SA

SAcademy: Nite all

SageMerlin: Good evening dear lady

Dehede011: Don & Juan only their names ryhme

BPRAL22169: night

SAcademy has left the room.

Dehede011: Night SA

BPRAL22169: Ginny warned us they were having thunderstorms.

ddavitt: They certainly do..but maybe they're quite different characters

ddavitt: I think Rico is professional, Don is amateur

Dehede011: Yes, very different that is why I say only the names ryhme.

SageMerlin: Again, I disagree.

Dehede011: Don is much greener in the beginning

SageMerlin: Rico is regular

SageMerlin: Don is a guerilla

Dehede011: Juan never was that young. He was born older

ddavitt: Not implying Don is inferior

SageMerlin: I think that man to man that Don could eat Juan's lunch

ddavitt: Don has on the job training

ddavitt: Really/ Even after ll that Zim hand to hand training?

Dehede011: Don also grows up quickly.

ddavitt: Being a girl i never thought of them as sparring partners:-)

ddavitt: ST covers a lot longer time than BP

ddavitt: He is on the reach then a few hours later is being interogated

ddavitt: ranch

Dehede011: He gets his education quick and dirty

Dehede011: And sees a far more cynical world than Juan

ddavitt: innocence gone in less than a day; starting with the headmaster whom he's presumably known for 7 years, turning on him

ddavitt: I like it that heinlein didn't make his friend jack a villain or a fool

ddavitt: Just on opposite sides

Dehede011: "innocence is gone in less than a day" confusion lasted a bit longer.

ddavitt: Like the US civil war, our war of the Roses

ddavitt: brother fighting brother

SageMerlin: You're a Limey, Davitt?

Dehede011: Yes, son-in-law fighting father-in-law

Major oz has entered the room.

ddavitt: I'm English, yes.

ddavitt: Hi oz

SageMerlin: Well, well. I am going to be in Banbury weekend after next

BPRAL22169: Fifth cousin twice remove fighting second cousin in the direct line . . .

Dehede011: Hi Oz

ddavitt: Near newbury?

SageMerlin: I think.

Major oz: Good evenin', all

SageMerlin: My friends have an apple orchard there.

BPRAL22169: yo oz

ddavitt: nice!

SageMerlin: In and out. I go over once a year or so.

BPRAL22169: It's a special apple orchard.

ddavitt: we lived in portsmouth but I'm from staffordhire; the Potteries

Dehede011: Hey Jane, ever hear of a place called Yorkshire. <G>

ddavitt: apples of Youth?

ddavitt: well, yes!

ddavitt: it's north of where I was born

ddavitt: i have relatives there

Dehede011: Yes, a cousin was from Staffordshire -- you hung him

ddavitt: i'm going to call this a break as from now.

ddavitt: Did I? i don't recall....

ddavitt: What did he do wrong then?

Dehede011: Well, not you, the English.

ddavitt: I must have had a reason

Dehede011: He cut off King Charles I's head

ddavitt: And we hung him for that? really?

Dehede011: And drew and quartered.

ddavitt: well, what can I say?

ddavitt: i don't suppose King Charles enjoyed it much either

Dehede011: The rest of the family got out before they could catch us.

Major oz: Jane: the book arrived in post today. Thank you so much and also for the old article on the RAH house. It must have slipped my mind that I had said publicly that I am building a house on the edge of my lake, which is now FULL !!!!

ddavitt: Glad it got there so fast.

BPRAL22169: The house or the lake?

ddavitt: So, won't the book fit in? :-)

ddavitt: buid an extension!

BPRAL22169: That's ok -- it'll float -- for a while.

ddavitt: Books and water!!! No, no

Dehede011: Submersion ruins books as good kindling.

Major oz: The foundation isn't even leveled yet. My SO and myself have just gotten past the shaking-each-other-by-the-throat stage of plan approval.

ddavitt: you run the risk of following in your ancestors footsteps

BPRAL22169: Thereby proving that tossing books in the lake is an excellent way of saving them from bonfires.

Dehede011: Me or Oz??

ddavitt: I am shocked and appalled

ddavitt: You Ron!

ddavitt: But I forgive you because you must be joking

ddavitt: :-)

Major oz: 'twill have a fire pit on the patio, next to the water.

Dehede011: Jane, if you counted the books in my house you would recommend I do something with them.

ddavitt: No i wouldn't

ddavitt: More books, more, cn never have enough!

BPRAL22169: I see you're taking no chances, Oz -- you can burn them THEN throw them in the lake.

ddavitt: (I'm addicted)

Dehede011: Books are the Camel's nose around here.

BPRAL22169: Belt and suspenders, i see.

Major oz: yes :-)

ddavitt: my husband might agree with you tho

ddavitt: i counted them and I'm over 3,000

Major oz: ...though one room is a dedicated library with approx 600 ft of shelf space

ddavitt: LOTS more space; who needs furniture anyway?

ddavitt: I have a library too; heaven but it's full

Dehede011: Yes

ddavitt: Does Eleanor really need that playroom next door Hmm...

ddavitt: I see Cryo is back tonight

Major oz: I only two years ago got rid of old books, mostly texts other than math and physics.

ddavitt: must be spring on the way

ddavitt: I do that rarely and reluctantly..OK, never

Dehede011: I finally put the stacks beside my chair back in the shelves.

ddavitt: we emigrated with over 50 boxes of books

ddavitt: i have photos of them all stacked up.

Dehede011: The freight bill, the freight bill

BPRAL22169: I have books stashed away in boxes in 3 widely separated locations. I bleed.

ddavitt: Anyway, is everyone ready to carry on before i get shouted at for not hosting properly?

ddavitt: Oh poor Bill!

Dehede011: What will we ever do if a compact version of handling the printed page ever appears.

Major oz: Most of mine have been packed since '86, whence I began traveling.

SCIFIMUSIC has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi there.

Doc4Kidz: hello, Linda

ddavitt: We're just about to get back to discussing Don harvey and Juan Rico

SCIFIMUSIC: Hello!

ddavitt: Two different soldiers

Major oz: welcome back

ddavitt: So, is Oscar more like Juan?

SCIFIMUSIC: great to be here

ddavitt: Or, as a jungle fighter more like Don

Major oz: more so than Don is......

Dehede011: No, a third type

Major oz: I think Don is a wimp !!!

ddavitt: staggers back

Dehede011: He is a kid

Major oz: ok....a kid wimp

ddavitt: sage thinks Don can take Rico

Major oz: never

ddavitt: i think oscar would whup them both personally

BPRAL22169: Not if Rico has a powered suit.

ddavitt: that's cheating...

SageMerlin: Take Ricco out of the suit

SageMerlin: Put them in a jungle

Doc4Kidz: oscar would roll them both up

SageMerlin: Knives only

ddavitt: Wouldn't have worked well in the jungle

Major oz: rico can take them all, one at a time or together

SageMerlin: Nonsense.

ddavitt: we have a split

SageMerlin: Rico is a team player

Major oz: He does it quietly, with no fanfare

SageMerlin: Don is a lone ranger

Major oz: Don would "woody allen" it

ddavitt: ?

SageMerlin: Ever stand next to Woody Allen

SageMerlin: He's five ten very well built.

Major oz: Oscar would get sidetracked with poetry

SageMerlin: Was scouted by the Dodgers as a pitcher

ddavitt: He's a hero

Major oz: Rico would quietly shiv them both.

ddavitt: oscar that is

SageMerlin: and was Golden Gloves Champion of brooklyn in his weight category

Major oz: .....while peeling an orange

SageMerlin: So much for Woody Allen-ing it.

SageMerlin: PS I can't stand him or his movies.

ddavitt: How much of this is based on admiration of a character rather than an objective judgement?

SageMerlin: Objective judgment comes from one's superiors.

Major oz: By woody-allen (verb, transitive) I mean over-analyze it while the situation passed him by.

SageMerlin: Johnny Rico is one of many.

SageMerlin: Don is a solitary figure.

ddavitt: A highly trained one tho

ddavitt: So why don't you agree he's an amateur?

ddavitt: Don i mean

Dehede011: Was Don trained or just learn on the job.

SageMerlin: Question: which predominates....training or survival of the fittest

ddavitt: Show me where he gets trained

SageMerlin: Being alive is on the job training.

Major oz: Don is a child dreamer, who says" OOh, ooh, I want to be a soljur, too......"

Major oz: ....scene change......

SageMerlin: Where does he say that, Major?

SageMerlin: Au contrare,

ddavitt: He wants a family, needs to belong; that's the only avneue left

SageMerlin: He has no idea of being a soldier. The war comes to him, not the other way around.

Major oz: Now he is an experienced swamp rat (with no details)

ddavitt: The army thinks for him; he can put aside his mission with no guilt

Major oz: Those are his needs.....not his talents.

ddavitt: He had to give up but this way he can say it's for the good of venus; not that he failed

Major oz: He says it while in the company of the Lt.

Major oz: .....who swears him in

Major oz: I was VERY disappointed with BP

ddavitt: Why, Oz?

Major oz: 125 pages of preparatory angst, and the rest anti-climax

ddavitt: there are some details; we don't know how long he's fighting before Sir Isaac finds him

ddavitt: He looks older; face is lined

Major oz: My point.....all left out

Dehede011: I originally read it in Blue Book as a teener. They had fetching pictures of the lead girl.

Major oz: nothing left to say

ddavitt: Not left out; just written about 8 years later in more detail

ddavitt: i liked the economy of that page of explanation

Major oz: You mean I gotta wait 8 years?

SageMerlin: THAT'S LIFE

ddavitt: The story wasn't about him becoming a soldier as ST was

ddavitt: Not now; just reach for ST

Major oz: It doesn't have to be

Major oz: .....but it needs to be a STORY

ddavitt: So we don't need lots about shining boots and polishing floors with toothbrushes

ddavitt: it was a story; it had a decoder ring for heaven's sake ,g>

ddavitt: And a damsel in distress.

ddavitt: Classic pulp ingredients

Doc4Kidz: and a dragon

ddavitt: there you go!

Major oz: ......and he was too stupid to realize it (the ring)

BPRAL22169: Actuall, Don was in more distress than Isobel.

ddavitt: Poetic license Bill

BPRAL22169: (waving of hands! magic passes!)

ddavitt: Isobel was in danger tho; Don put her there

Major oz: Ah, but she wasn't (in distress)

Major oz: He only (in his ignorance) assumed so

ddavitt: If she had been in the camp and they found out about the ring she would have been in trouble

Major oz: if, if, if.........

ddavitt: though if it was just in her undies I'm sure they would have found it pretty fast

Major oz: she wasn't

Major oz: ......more Don angst

Major oz: non-productive

ddavitt: She got to Sir isaac two days after the attack

ddavitt: Well, it's more likely she was rounded up; her dads was important after all

ddavitt: Don was right to escape to try and save her

Dehede011: How many novels after Spaceship G was BP?

ddavitt: hang on

ddavitt: 4 or 5

Dehede011: Thank you Jane.

ddavitt: depending on if you count adult ones

Dehede011: No, I meant total.

BPRAL22169: I lose track after FitS

ddavitt: Space cadet, red planet, farmer

BPRAL22169: Puppet Masters

ddavitt: beyond this horizon

ddavitt: Not PM as book

ddavitt: BP is 51

BPRAL22169: Rewrite of BTH and start of Methuselah's Children, though it wasn't published until 58

Dehede011: Okay then, he had had practice writing

ddavitt: Oh yes

Dehede011: Was the Blue Book version in the summer of '51 or '52

ddavitt: Pm same year actually; busy year!

ddavitt: sept Oct

ddavitt: for blue book

ddavitt: scribner's printed it same year

BPRAL22169: He started writing Puppet Masters in 1949, I think. At least, the incident on which the opening scene was based was in a Movietone newsreel that summer while they were in Hollywood for Destination Moon.

Dehede011: I remember the pretty weather. I bought the first installment off the newstand but had to go downtown to the St. Louis Central Library to finish it.

ddavitt: well, how ever many, it was certainly well into his career

ddavitt: I envy you..but you had to wait in between books more than i did

Dehede011: Thank you

ddavitt: Going back to the scene at the end

ddavitt: Was it artifical suspense that Don could possibly hang on to the ring and be safe?

Major oz: ?

ddavitt: Because of Venusian traditions of hospitality

ddavitt: let's get real; it wasn't his ring

ddavitt: He was right to make sure he was giving it to the proper people

Major oz: ....don't understand the Q

ddavitt: but not right if he had hung on to it and Sir Isaac had protected him

Major oz: "artificial ....."

ddavitt: He wouldn't give the ring up

Major oz: yes....and.......what?

ddavitt: Sir isaac said he could stay as a guest 9 with ring for ever

ddavitt: But we know he couldn't; not a real choice for Don

ddavitt: tho, as I said, very dramatic scene and memorable

Major oz: I still don't understand what you are asking.

ddavitt: The tension was unreal; in life, wouldn't they have just grabbed it off him

ddavitt: Not stood there politely asking?

Major oz: the bad guys?

Major oz: or Sir I & co.

Major oz: ?

Dehede011: One did try to take it

BPRAL22169: No, the good guys.

ddavitt: Well, not the bad guys.

ddavitt: The ones at Sir isaac's house; phipps

BPRAL22169: Now there's a nasty name if ever I heard one.

ddavitt: The Martian who was going to die if Don didn't pull his finger out

Major oz: It would be inconsistent with the cabal, as represented by SI to do so.

ddavitt: why

ddavitt: A nasty name?

BPRAL22169: Phippssssss

ddavitt: SI?

Major oz: Sir Isaac

ddavitt: Still puzzled Bill

ddavitt: Ah, duh!

ddavitt: Not a cabal tho; just traditions

Major oz: whatever

Major oz: not a bad name

Major oz: a la ITGO

ddavitt: Heinlein's aliens all had some very strange traditions; look at the martians in DS

ddavitt: And the little people not eating in public

Major oz: Navatrolova and who else, Jane?

Major oz: :-)

ddavitt: Hospitality to a guest has terrestrial links I suppose

ddavitt: i always misspell that word!

ddavitt: No spell check here

BPRAL22169: Almost all of Heinlein's alien customs come out of terrestrial comparative anthropology.

ddavitt: DS one about being on time,honouring commitments; Oriental maybe?

BPRAL22169: Hard to track them all down. you'd have to find out what oddities H was reading.

Major oz: You can always get a handle on good guys vs. bad guys (identification-wise) by who does or does not observe "blue mud" customs.

ddavitt: Well, in that scene Phipps doesn't; but he's not bad, just worried

Major oz: He is an officious sob. even if he is a "good guy"

ddavitt: his eyes fill with tears when Don finally gives him the ring

Major oz: I liken him to a Hollywood military officer

ddavitt: I feel for him

ddavitt: i can see Don's POV but I dont blame him for getting cross with Don

ddavitt: Don can't see the big picture; not his fault but still

Major oz: .....and if I touch him, I'll kill him......eh, Jane. One of my mom's favorite sayings.

ddavitt: And hey, talk about Uncle Tom putting poddy's life in danger; what about the harvey's?

Major oz: war is hell

Major oz: re: French resistance

ddavitt: They are even worse absentee parents and they give their son something to carry that the whole galaxy is after

ddavitt: With no warning

ddavitt: He could have chucked that ring as a piece of junk; nearly did once or twice

Major oz: Mayhap they counted on him to be as stupid as he turned out to be.

ddavitt: What he didn't know he couldn't reveal but they used him

BPRAL22169: I think this is one of those "pentimento" kinds of things -- an opportunity rose and they had to take it because they don't have a lot of opportuntities.

Major oz: perzactly

ddavitt: You really don't like him do you

Major oz: not in comparison to ALL other RAH protags.

Major oz: or ANY....

Major oz: however you look at it

ddavitt: they could have emailed it as an attachment!

ddavitt: <sorry>

Dehede011: I wonder what the origin of this story was?

ddavitt: It was originally titled the Rolling Stones which is funny

Major oz: a rough draft of concepts underlying Poddy, perhaps?

BPRAL22169: Probably the Hale story "The man Without a Country"

ddavitt: No hint of criticism of the harvey's tho

ddavitt: Yes; Don's decision to vote for venus is inevitable in the context but not so likely in rl

BPRAL22169: I can't recall anything topical about dual citizenship about then.

Major oz: No; as someone (Bill?) said. You do what you gotta do.

ddavitt: If he'd been Rico he'd have joined up with jack

ddavitt: Gone with what his friend thought

Major oz: Rico as a HS student or as MI vet?

ddavitt: learned to think for himself later

ddavitt: Student

Major oz: agree

Dehede011: So young he is still crying over a horse.

ddavitt: Don's friend jack signed up as pilot for Federation forces

ddavitt: Natural at that stage

Dehede011: At that age I never felt that way toward one of our mules.

Major oz: What if Rico was a (name your place, outside the federation) exchange student?

ddavitt: Venus was just a memory; Earth lost him thru that security guy threatening his horse and killing the doctor

ddavitt: I don't know Oz

ddavitt: If I had to leave my cat i'd cry

ddavitt: especially at a moment's notice

ddavitt: He had the rug pulled out from him

Major oz: You aren't terribly militaristic (in person)?

ddavitt: err...no

ddavitt: define it

Major oz: But you would have fought on the beach with Winnie, yes?

ddavitt: i'm a nasty net bully if that helps

ddavitt: oh yes.

Major oz: .....time, place, situation.......etc

ddavitt: I have strong protective instincts that manifest themselves in stupidly putting my body in between a friend a a big person

Major oz: ....mother cat......:-)

ddavitt: I suppose so.

Major oz: I am more of a sniper.

ddavitt: who isn't?

ddavitt: takes all sorts to make an army.

ddavitt: heinlein always had women and kids in his resistance fighters; free men for instance

Major oz: As the ads for the Triumph used to say: ".....at Triumph, we endeavor for the driver to AVOID the wall:.

Major oz: .....commenting on the volvo ads

ddavitt: That's funny!

Major oz: I avoid having to put myself between good an bad

Major oz: I concentrate on blowing away bad

ddavitt: Anyway, Don was probably in shock for most of the book

ddavitt: Rico was too but it was organised, intentional shock, orchestrated by the army

BPRAL22169: Well, yeah, i think that was a part of the dynamic RAH was looking for -- constantly having rugs pulled out from under his feet.

ddavitt: Black hats strike again...

Major oz: Thorby learned and prevailed; Don stumbled into friends.

Major oz: ...and savoirs

SageMerlin: Well, coming back into the fray, Don's experience sort of reminds of a, um, a friend of mine who was visiting a small middle eastern country when a war sort of broke out and he found himself in, well, in combat in an ancient city because someone put a gun in his hand and someone else started shooting at him.

Dehede011: Didn't RAH do the old military break them down to nothing and invite them to rebuild themselves routing

Dehede011: routine

ddavitt: sounds scary

SageMerlin: Seems to me that Don's experience was very much like my friend's, who was as non-violent as you could get....until someone started shooting at him.

Major oz: Not with Don, de. (Will, isnt it?)

Dehede011: How many pages into the book when this green kid was at the bottom of a gravity well caught up in something he did not understand and was not equipted to understand.

ddavitt: Not many

SageMerlin: The point of the story is this: Juan signs up to be a soldier, not to be a warrior.

Major oz: 190 pages

Major oz: 4 of being a soljur

Major oz: .....and most of that was narrative history

ddavitt: 30 pages from idyllic ride to interrogation room

ddavitt: heinlein is cruel

Dehede011: I am thinking about when Earth first occupies Venus.

Major oz: for real, you mean?

ddavitt: 'with it a breathless expectancy of something wonderful about to happen' it says on page 1

Dehede011: Even less to being on the space ship and having to make a decision about where he is going

ddavitt: literary cruel

Major oz: page 1 of what?

ddavitt: followed, a few line slater by Don being attacked by a snake; symbolic?

ddavitt: the book

ddavitt: Bp opens with Don riding horse, blue sky, rainbow even

Major oz: hokay....I thought you meant FIRST line

SCIFIMUSIC: everyone; this has been incredibly interesting...I still have alot to read...Thanks for having me!

ddavitt: well, first para

ddavitt: nice to see you linda!

Major oz: come back soon

SCIFIMUSIC: good night all! I'll be back

Dehede011: Nitw

ddavitt: maybe it IS symbolic; he kills the snake clumsily but it's disturbed the tranquilty and broken the promise of something nice about to happen

SageMerlin: Juan has the benefit of the best training, the best equipment, the best support, and the luxury of having no doubts about which side he's on. He doesn't even have to think about it. Don, on the other hand, whatever his deficiencies might be, uses himself to the best possible effect under the conditions in which he finds himself and, if he is not to our liking, perhaps he doesn't even like himself as much as Juan does,

ddavitt: just as his life is distrubed and the happy future is spoiled

Dehede011: Also shows he is not an expert marksman

SageMerlin: but he does one thing that I find fascinating

ddavitt: Well, no, just a kid

Major oz: wonderful=nice

Dehede011: Ill equipted to handle what is coming

SageMerlin: He accepts the responsibility for suiciding the entire mission, and no one doubts that he will exercise his option if it becomes necessary to do so.

ddavitt: Hmm..nitpicky but OK

SCIFIMUSIC has left the room.

SageMerlin: And that is what I find so interesting about this book, which is definitely not Heinlein's best.

ddavitt: By the end he is adult

Major oz: expand, please, sage

BPRAL22169: That's an aspect of his adulthoodness -- he's now protecting his parents' work with his life.

SageMerlin: He leaves all the development to the very end.

ddavitt: no, i don't like it as much as others

Major oz: "....suiciding the entire mission"?

AGplusone has entered the room.

Major oz: yo, David

ddavitt: But I'm not sure why. Bit rushed maybe, too cliched in parts, another hero who doesn't know he's a boyfriend

AGplusone: Sorry I'm late. Busy with Jon moving websites.

Dehede011: Howdy, David

ddavitt: Hi David

SageMerlin: We see him in a role where he has a singular responsibility that requires both incredible love and incredible ruthlessness, to detonate the ship rather than let the technology into the wrong hands.

BPRAL22169: But that's what adults do.

SageMerlin: Could Johnny Rico do that? Sure.

SageMerlin: The point is that without the training, without the indocrination, and with much less sureness of purpose, Don will rise to that occasion.

SageMerlin: If you remember my earlier story about that friend of mine, the year was 1948, and the place was Palestine.

SageMerlin: And this friend of mine had to fight to survive, which much less notice.

AGplusone: Is the question about the 'lacuna' in character development of Don Harvey?

ddavitt: They could have lost him rubbing his mouth after his first kiss and thinking Isobel is weird for doing it; he's about to go off on a dangerous mission for heaven's sake!!

SageMerlin: He rose the occasion, just as Don does, and this particular civil war coming a year before this book was started, might it not have had some effect on RAH's penetrating insights

ddavitt: I think so:-)

SageMerlin: I have it, Major.

SageMerlin: I just figured out why I am taking such exception to your comments.

Dehede011: Isn't that a fairly common situation for people to find themselves in across the centuries.

Major oz: .....have what?

Major oz: hokay

SageMerlin: BP is about courage in its pure form, where it comes from, how you get it, and what you do with it when the situation requires it.

AGplusone: I'd think a rather common situation for any guerrilla fighter ... any Cong would do it.

AGplusone: or know he had to do it

Major oz: He didn't have "courage"....he just went with the flow.

Dehede011: Yes, and it has been done in this country on the frontier.

SageMerlin: Sure, Dave, if you have already made a commitment to the cause. In Don's case, he is pushed into it by circumstances beyond his control.

Major oz: He didn't think about any of it.

ddavitt: I have to go now; thanks for a great chat!

AGplusone: sure, he was caught up in circumstances and had to grow into it ... no choice

SageMerlin: Not true, Major. He keeps going out on missions no one else will take. I agree, it is terribly abbreviated but it is there.

Major oz: nite Jane, and thanx again.

Dehede011: Thank you Jane

SageMerlin: Good Night.

ddavitt: Hope you enjoy it

Major oz: One mission ?

AGplusone: nite Jane ...

ddavitt has left the room.

Doc4Kidz: I;m going to beg off, too. Goodnight all

Major oz: the four pages of being a soljur ain't missions

Doc4Kidz: ok

Major oz: nite, Doc

Doc4Kidz has left the room.

SageMerlin: No, it is summarized not described. Maybe Robert got bored with the book himself. Or maybe he wasn't interested in his career as a jungle fighter.

Dehede011: At fourteen Lincoln's Uncle walked outside his cabin and suddenly found himself standing between his family and an indian attack as the senior male in the family still alive.

Major oz: It may have described months or years, but it wasn't "being there"

Major oz: Without even those 4 pages the book has no purpose (other than, of course, mortgage payments).

SageMerlin: Just my point. Perhaps it is a defect (glad Ginny's gone) in the writing rather than the character.

SageMerlin: Okay.

SageMerlin: Battle lines are being drawn.

SageMerlin: We're not going to reach a happy medium on this one and, come to think of it, Don is far from my top ten RAH heroes.

Major oz: I just expected more, both in character developement and character activity.

SageMerlin: And, it being past eleven here, I think it is time for me to beat a belated retreat, considering that I have to be back here in eight hours.

Major oz: This is the only place I can remember RAH having a shadow of a person as a protag.

AGplusone: I think he couldn't describe guerrilla war in a juvenile, and had to summarize it

Major oz: goodnight Sage,

Major oz: come more often

Major oz: But that begs the question, David. Don wasn't interesting

Dehede011: Folks, it is about time for me to move along.

Major oz: jeeeez....and I bathed and everything

Major oz: nite, will

Dehede011: Nite

Dehede011 has left the room.

Major oz: knock, knock ??

BPRAL22169: My goodness, this is deflating more rapidly than it inflated.

BPRAL22169: I think Sage must be busy with AG

SageMerlin: Sorry

Major oz: Am I driving folks away?

Major oz: Too brusk?

SageMerlin: No Major. Its me

SageMerlin: That's why I don't visit that often

BPRAL22169: I've noticed in the last couple of months that the last hour is getting shorter and shorter.

BPRAL22169: Alan: stop that!

Major oz: yeah, usually Ginny leaves, then Jane, and then it tumbles

SageMerlin: Okay, the shoulder holster also has something to do with it.

BPRAL22169: Particularly since it was Jane's topic.

Major oz: Thought it was my spiky blue hair.

SageMerlin: Yeah right.

Major oz: If I had any, I would gladly spike it.

SageMerlin: Mine is down to my shoulders again, but that's because I can't find a barber who's open at midnight

BPRAL22169: Actually, I think we've hit all the points raised in the afh posts, plus covered significant new ground: I say, call it a win and move on.

SageMerlin: Such a diplomat.

Major oz: Suits me.

BPRAL22169: You have to follow the Spanish barber around and ask him who does his.

Major oz: I haven't been around many Saturdays, lately

SageMerlin: What's the next topic?

Major oz: Are we getting many from overseas

Major oz: ?

Major oz: Joel Rosenburg

BPRAL22169: Next meeting is an author meeting with Joel Rosenberg.

BPRAL22169: Jani showed up last Saturday meeting. Kultsi, too, I believe.

BPRAL22169: Will Jennings -- not from overseas, but we rarely see him on Thursdays.

Major oz: Francisco, Kultsi, and the guy from Australia sometimes showed up.

BPRAL22169: Gaeltachta -- Sean.

Major oz: yeah

Major oz: I like Francisco's insights

Major oz: He has given me many new POV's

BPRAL22169: It's very good to get a completely divergent point of view from time to time.

BPRAL22169: I mean -- we're kind of in a mainstream, having read Heinlein as part of our cultural heritage.

BPRAL22169: Reading Heinlein in Italy has got to be a terribly isolated iexperience.

Major oz: yeah......."bible belt" and other terms must be understood in context

BPRAL22169: I have no idea where via del Sarto is, but that's where he lives.

Major oz: .....and probably often, not at all

Major oz: Sarto?.....any translation

Major oz: ?

BPRAL22169: no, that's just the town, with a postal code of 48

AGplusone: No, this is another one

Major oz: see ya, guys

AGplusone: See ya, Oz

Major oz has left the room.

AGplusone: Jon's gone to sleep ...

DavidWrightSr: Good Evening Guys. Sorry I couldn't be active tonight.

AGplusone: G'nite, David.

SageMerlin: Had a scare tonight. Someone mentioned my Citizen essay and I discovered that I didn't have a copy.

SageMerlin: Brother Bill supplied the necessary and I have one now. Question is: are you going to port those essays into the new site?

AGplusone: I'll send it to you ...

AGplusone: I think I will. Wanna amend it?

SageMerlin: I'll re-read both of them, but I think they stand up pretty well.

AGplusone: anyway ... see y'all Saturday?

DavidWrightSr: BTW. Bill, I got the issues of THJ. Have really enjoyed them. Wish I could have had more time to read them. That story about what happened to RAH at the Forrestal Lecture really tore me up.

SageMerlin: Good night david

BPRAL22169: Odd, isn't it? be sure to read Ginny's followup a few issues later.

AGplusone: bill, david, alan, g'nite

AGplusone has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: I'll be looking for it. G'night David

BPRAL22169: Thanks for coming, David.

BPRAL22169: Well, I guess we're finished. David, you have the log?

DavidWrightSr: I've got it.

BPRAL22169: Ok. Gentlemen, thanks for coming. In the words of number six, 'be seeing you.'

SageMerlin: cool

BPRAL22169: ciao.

BPRAL22169: have a good trip to jolly olde.

DavidWrightSr: See ya!

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Night Alan.

DavidWrightSr: Log Officially closed at 11:34 P.M. EST

Final End Of Discussion Log

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