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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Thursday 03-07-2002 9:00 P.M.

Another Robert's Mysteries

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings


From: "David Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>

Subject: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Date: Monday, February 25, 2002 10:46 PM

Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat

Theme: Another Robert's Mysteries (in preparation for author Robert

Crais' guest visit on Thursday, March 21)

Dates and times: Thursday, March 7, 2002, 9 PM to midnight, EST and

Saturday, March 9, 2002, 5 PM to 8 PM, EST.

Chat Host: Agplusone

Place: AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat"

Recommended Reading: Robert Crais' novel _L.A. Requiem_ (1999, Ballantine PB ISBN 0-345-43447-1) and _Hostage_ (2001, Doubleday HB, ISBN 0-385-49585-4) and others, as references to them may arise.

This meeting prepares for one in the ongoing series of guest author visits, speaking generally to the topic of Robert A. Heinlein's inspiration on them and their writings. Mr. Crais will visit on Thursday, March 21. More details later.

In February 2000, many of us who regularly read alt.fan.heinlein were suprised to find a "visitor," whom many of us did not recognize, had posted the results of his visit to Colorado Springs, referring us to his website where we found photographs of the interior of the fabled bombshelter Robert and Virginia Heinlein had placed in the home they had designed and built in the early 1950s.

See, http://www.robertcrais.com/worldheinlein.htm

Robert apparently visited the site during a rebuilding about five years earlier, and took the photos. He'd described the shelter years earlier, at a time (roughly 1997-1999) when he was more or less a regular in this newsgroup.

One thing his posts back then do not mention is his occupation. When he posted the website photos, that was, so far as I can discover, the first hint to many that he was a writer himself.

Who he was, and how he became who he is, as always, in our visitor chats, important; but I'll leave that up to his own explanation, contained in this interview on his website: http://www.robertcrais.com/interview.htm> and what he chooses to tell us two weeks from our next meetings.

Except for one statement: "I grew up reading science fiction and fantasy. Robert Heinlein, Ray Bradbury, people like that. Heinlein was a major, major influence on me, not only on my work, but on me as a boy trying to become a man. So much so that I'll return to his work every couple of years and reread those books which mean the most to me."

But for now, let's look at his books, themselves. After some early short stories, science-fiction ones, there came a series of mystery-dectective adventure stories, all involving two partners, Elvis Cole, the point-of-view character, and his partner, the somewhat obscure, very unique, and sometimes utterly terrifying Joe Pike.

I suggest we start discussion with these: there are eight of them, with a ninth due out in August this year.

These are, in order:

The Monkey's Raincoat

Stalking the Angel

Lullaby Town

Free Fall

Voodoo River

Sunset Express,

*Indigo Slam, and the latest, L.A. Requiem.

*Indigo Slam is a little hard to find as it was not published in the United States, but in the United Kingdom. An U.S. edition is also due out in August.

We can move on to Hostage and Demolition Angel, his non-Cole-Pike novels later; but let's begin with L.A. Requiem.

It's perhaps unfair that we have to do this, but I think we might as well start reading the latest of the series. It will be probably most easily obtained; and it was, for Robert Crais, the 'blockbuster, break-out' novel that attracted bestseller attention. It is, I think, his best of the Cole-Pike novels; and the reason I think it is the best is this:

It breaks out of genre conventions by truly showing developing characters.

Character development was Robert Heinlein's raison d'art.

Both Cole and Pike are developing characters in L.A. Requiem.

Cole breaks out of a fairly self-satisfied rut as the irreverent Hollywood private detective, an ageing bachelor living with his black tomcat in an A-Frame overlooking Hollywood, riding forth on occasion to do well, more of less, by doing good, more or less.

Pike is another story entirely. Pike is what I characterize, when I find him, either in books or in the rare real life form, as a "dragon's tooth." Let me say that in a real life of fifty-mumble years, I've met exactly two, that I know of for certain.

They are larger than live and, sadly, I think, sometimes live less than full lives, either in duration or quality. Seeing them portrayed well in fiction is unusual. I can think of one other, right now, done as well as Robert Crais has done Joe Pike -- that is: Stephen Hunter's Bob Lee Swagger ("Bob the Nailer").

You may read an excerpt of the novel, the first seven pages in fact, which is a flashback, here: http://www.robertcrais.com/excerptlarequiem.htm

I think I'll wait a couple days for those of you interested in these truly good novels to acquire them before I start talking about the character development of Cole and Pike.

Let me throw the floor open, however, to any of you . . . and expect a plot summary, at least of the opening chapters (basically the substance if not the form of opening paragraphs of a classic five-paragraph mission order, if I can remember what they are, so to speak), of L.A. Requiem, in the next day or so.

To attend our chats, and any reasonable person is welcome, you may receive instructions on how to download and use AIM freeware on the website located at http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

Email me ( ag.plusone@verizon.net or agplusone@aol.com ), or Dave Wright, Sr, ( dwrighsr@alltel.net ) if you require further help getting the freeware or getting into the room.

As always, the more pre-meeting posts we have, the better our chats.

-- 
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
   	Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
   	Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

From: James Gifford (jgifford@surewest.not)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-25 19:51:09 PST

David Silver wrote:

>Pike is another story entirely. Pike is what I characterize, when I find 
>him, either in books or in the rare real life form, as a "dragon's 
>tooth." Let me say that in a real life of fifty-mumble years, I've met 
>exactly two, that I know of for certain.

A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed?

Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring about him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!"

-- 

|           James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press            |
| http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
|  Tired of auto-spam... change "not" to "net" for replies  |

From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-25 20:04:04 PST

James Gifford wrote:

>David Silver wrote:
>
>>Pike is another story entirely. Pike is what I characterize, when I 
>>find him, either in books or in the rare real life form, as a 
>>"dragon's tooth." Let me say that in a real life of fifty-mumble 
>>years, I've met exactly two, that I know of for certain.
>
>
>
>A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed?
>
>Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring about 
>him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!"
>
Hard to tell apart -- you'll love him or he'll terrify you. Sometimes both at once.

--
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
        Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
        Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-26 08:41:51 PST

David Silver wrote:

>James Gifford wrote:
>
>>David Silver wrote:
>>
>>>Pike is another story entirely. Pike is what I characterize, when I 
>>>find him, either in books or in the rare real life form, as a 
>>>"dragon's tooth." Let me say that in a real life of fifty-mumble 
>>>years, I've met exactly two, that I know of for certain.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed?
>>
>>Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring 
>>about him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!"
>>
>
>Hard to tell apart -- you'll love him or he'll terrify you. Sometimes 
>both at once.
>

That was the short answer. Here comes the long one, another of my notorious "brief" essays:

The term "dragon's teeth" is an allusion pertaining to an episode in the epic we call The Voyages of the Argonauts, or Jason and the Golden Fleece. Unlike the epics The Iliad or The Odyssey, attributed to Homer, the blind Greek poet of antiquity, of whom we know only his name and blindness, we know with precision who wrote the Argonautica; and we know more than a bit about political and literary atmosphere of those times. He was Apollonius Rhodius, born between 300 and 250 years BCE, in Alexandria, Egypt, during the time the Greek-derived Ptolemies ruled Egypt [Ptolemy Soter founded the famous library).

Apollonius studied under Callimachus and, while still a youth, wrote and recited in public his Argonautica. There are references to a quarrel with his master Callimachus at this time. Perhaps as a result, the Poem was condemned by Alexandrians; in consequence he retired to Rhodes and there revised it, then recited it to great applause, and thereafter called himself a Rhodian. It is said by some he returned then to Alexandria, recited his epic again to great success, and thereafter, towards the end of a long life, during the time of Ptolemy Euergetes, was rewarded when he succeeded Eratosthenes in the headship of the Alexandrian Library.

At the time of its writing, literature of taking stock of itself. Epics were out of style; and Callimachus, his teacher, was one who directed criticism against the so-called "cyclic poets," those who wrote epics and dragged in conventional and commonplace phrases particular to the epics following Homer. Callimachus was in accordance with the spirit of the age when he proclaimed "a great book" to be "a great evil." Callimachus also conselled against literary political illusions. By writing and presenting an epic which did contain, among other things, allusions to political matters, his student exposed himself to the teacher's wrath.

Briefly, the story involves Jason, one of literature's many "lost princes" and an aspirant to a throne occupied by one Pelias. Pelias orders Jason to seek out, obtain, and return to him the fabled Golden Fleece which happens to be owned by another king, Aeestes of Colchis. The motive for the voyage ordered by Pelias is to destroy Jason by sending him on an impossible task. Among other things undisclosed to Jason, Pelias knows Aeestes is not likely to give up his treasure willingly. Jason's vessel is the Argo, and he gathers together heroes to crew it. Off they go. Various adventures ensue.

Unlike the heroes of Homer, Jason is the familiar 'modern-day' sort. He is indecisve, fearful, lacks confidence, etc. and is the sort Achilles would have ordered out of his way or brushed aside with the flat of his sword and Odysseus would have smiled sweetly at and faked out of his socks (and then cut his throat, because Odysseus was never stupid enough to leave a live enemy behind).

But the great redeeming of Jason is his finding and falling in love with Medea, whose counsel and "magic" fortifies her lover.

There is a good copy of it, translated into English, on line.

[See, http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Argonautica/ from which most of the above is cribbed in short form.]

At http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Argonautica/book3.html we get down to the nut-harvesting, so to speak; but before I do, let me say, you should read it, and not this cribbed, corrected, but probably still inaccurate, rewritten summary from another site:

When they reach Colchis, Jason tells King Aeetes they've come for the Golden Fleece. The king does not reveal his malign intent to destroy Jason and keep the Fleece, but tells Jason he must earn the Golden Fleece by proving his courage and strength. He must harness a pair of bulls, sow, and then harvest the crop of a field before sundown.

There's a little problem here: several actually, but we'll pass quickly by the ferocious fire-snorting bulls to the main point. The 'seed' provided happens to be teeth from a legendary dragon, slain by an earlier hero, and presented as gift to the King and folk of Colchis. They grow ferocious, giant, unstoppable, and unstopping warriors. Turn one of these guys on, point him in the right direction, and stand back to watch the entertaining slaughter!

Prior hereto, the gods, or rather a couple of godesses, had intervened: Hera favored Jason, so she told Aphrodite to have her son Eros shoot an arrow into the heart of Medea, King Aeetes' daughter. Struck by Eros' arrow, Medea fell instantly in love with the handsome young hero. Nor was Medea just any beautiful princess. She was also a priestess of Hecate, and a powerful, skilled sorceress--just as her Aunt Circe, who had transformed Odysseus's men into animals. That night Medea visits Jason and armors him with magical oil, which will protect him from the hooves and the fiery breath of her father's bulls. She also gifts him a bit of advice about the psychology of inhabitants of Colchis. The next day, Jason fearlessly approaches the bulls and harnesses them. With such power yoked, Jason makes short work of sowing the bag of seed he had been given.

Jason sows the seed as quickly as possible and gets out of the way. From each sown tooth springs forth an armed giant warrior [you didn't expect Steve's grits, did you?], until the field is crowded with armed men. Now it's time to harvest the nuts, so to speak, as I said before. The oil that had protected him from the bulls also gave him some protection from the warriors, but no matter how many Jason kills, there are always more to attack him. As Jason becomes too tired to keep up the battle, he remembers the counsel Medea had given him about the inhabitants of Colchis. He tosses a rock that hits one of the warriors on the back of his head. Thinking another dragon-seed warrior had struck him, the first one attacks his comrade. A few more well-placed rocks soon had the entire army of dragon-warriors fighting with each other, until not one was left alive.

So much for Jason.Ultimately, Jason picks up the Fleece, and sails off to herohood.

Describing Joe Pike as a "dragon's tooth" isn't exactly accurate, however. Joe's not quite that stupid. To find out why, you know the drill: go buy the book . . . and we'll talk about it further here, and a week from Thursday.

--
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
        Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29

From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-26 09:39:34 PST

James Gifford wrote:

>A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed?
>
>Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring about 
>him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!"
>
Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm weird...she has to be wrong :-))

Jane


From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-26 14:08:09 PST

Jane Davitt wrote:

>James Gifford wrote:
>
>
>>A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed?
>>
>>Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring 
>>about him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!"
>>

By the way, Jim, tell Audrey we'd be pleased to have her join the chat.

>
>Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm weird...she 
>has to be wrong :-))

Jane: Let me ask this: What did you think of the scene in the second flashback of L.A. Requiem, quoting for evaluation of Crais' style here:

        " . . . Pike's window came down and he looked out at her. 'Yes, Ma'am?'

        "Karen Garcia leaned forward with her hands on the window. 'I have a 
request.'

        "He stared at her, and her mouth went dry. She absolutely knew she was 
making a fool of herself. 'Would you take off your glasses, please? I'd 
like to see your eyes.'

        "The older officer made a face like he wanted to spit; irritated, as if 
she had interrupted something. 'Oh, for Christ's sake.'

        "Officer Pike took off his dark glasses, and looked at her.

        "She felt her breath catch. His eyes were the most liquid blue, the blue 
of the sky over the high deserts of Sonora, the blue of the ocean that 
has no bottom, and is infinitely clean. But it wasn't the blue that 
stopped her breath. For just a moment when the glasses were pulled away, 
she could have sworn that those eyes were filled with the most terrible 
and long-endured pain. Then the pain was gone and there was only the blue.

        "Karen Garcia said, 'Would you like to go to a movie with me this Friday 
night?'

        "Pike stared at her for so many hartbeats that she wondered if she'd 
really spoken the words aloud. But then, slowly, he fitted the dark 
glasses over the incredible eyes again and put out his hand for her to 
take. 'My name is Joe. May I have your phone number?'

        "When he touched her, she quivered."
                        -- L.A. Requiem, end of Chapter 3
What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities? His style? His ability to create an emotive scene?
--
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
        Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
        Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

From: Steve Burwen

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-26 14:47:39 PST

"David Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>wrote in message news:3C7C06BF.6020408@verizon.net...

>Jane Davitt wrote:
>
>>James Gifford wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed?
>>>
>>>Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring
>>>about him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!"
>>>
>
>
>By the way, Jim, tell Audrey we'd be pleased to have her join the chat.
>
>
>>
>>Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm weird...she
>>has to be wrong :-))
>
>Jane: Let me ask this: What did you think of the scene in the second
>flashback of L.A. Requiem, quoting for evaluation of Crais' style here:
>
>" . . . Pike's window came down and he looked out at her. 'Yes, Ma'am?'
>
>"Karen Garcia leaned forward with her hands on the window. 'I have a
>request.'
>
>"He stared at her, and her mouth went dry. She absolutely knew she was
>making a fool of herself. 'Would you take off your glasses, please? I'd
>like to see your eyes.'
>
>"The older officer made a face like he wanted to spit; irritated, as if
>she had interrupted something. 'Oh, for Christ's sake.'
>
>"Officer Pike took off his dark glasses, and looked at her.
>
>"She felt her breath catch. His eyes were the most liquid blue, the blue
>of the sky over the high deserts of Sonora, the blue of the ocean that
>has no bottom, and is infinitely clean. But it wasn't the blue that
>stopped her breath. For just a moment when the glasses were pulled away,
>she could have sworn that those eyes were filled with the most terrible
>and long-endured pain. Then the pain was gone and there was only the blue.
>
>"Karen Garcia said, 'Would you like to go to a movie with me this Friday
>night?'
>
>"Pike stared at her for so many hartbeats that she wondered if she'd
>really spoken the words aloud. But then, slowly, he fitted the dark
>glasses over the incredible eyes again and put out his hand for her to
>take. 'My name is Joe. May I have your phone number?'
>
>"When he touched her, she quivered."
>-- L.A. Requiem, end of Chapter 3
>
>What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities?
>His style? His ability to create an emotive scene?
>
>--
>David M. Silver

I like it myself. Very original and powerful and nothing hackneyed in the entire scene, and it's probably pretty hard to do anthing very creative in a boy-meets-girl scene anymore. Just hard-hitting, concise and very expressive prose.

--Steve B.


From: BPRAL22169 (bpral22169@aol.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-26 15:30:27 PST

>What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities? 
>His style? His ability to create an emotive scene?
It seems to me occasionally that Crais is trying too hard. I get that feeling occasionally from Poul Anderson, too. I found Elvis Cole's self-evaluation and self-description a little disturbing at times -- just a little too self-approving for my tastes . . . though that is a matter of taste.

As some other poster has remarked, the Hard Boiled Dick genre has been very extensively worked, and it's tough to distinguish oneself. I think Crais is generally successful, and I also think he makes a more credible 'successor to Raymond Chandler" than Robert Parker does.

Bill


From: Ward Griffiths (wdg3rd@comcast.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-26 19:22:43 PST

BPRAL22169 wrote:

>>What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities?
>>His style? His ability to create an emotive scene?
>
>It seems to me occasionally that Crais is trying too hard.  I get that feeling
>occasionally from Poul Anderson, too.  I found Elvis Cole's
>self-evaluation and self-description a little disturbing at times -- just
>a little too self-approving for my tastes . . . though that is a matter of taste.
>
>As some other poster has remarked, the Hard Boiled Dick genre has been very
>extensively worked, and it's tough to distinguish oneself.  I think Crais
>is generally successful, and I also think he makes a more credible
>'successor to Raymond Chandler" than Robert Parker does.
Probably my favorite item in that "genre" is _The Jehovah Contract_ by Victor Koman. (Although Del Ammo isn't a detective, he's a career assassin). Previous dead-tree editions out of print, but available from www.pulpless.com. (Vic's later Prometheus-winning novel, a great Heinlein tribute, _Kings of the High Frontier_ is available electronically from Pulpless or as a hardcover from www.bereshith.com. Yes, I've plugged the book in this newsgroup before, and I probably will again).

"I've seen it all and I've done half of it. Frankly, I was ready to cash it
in. So the word from the doctor didn't hit me too hard. I was halfway
through the Times when Evangeline, his nurse, poked her gorgeous
head into the waiting room and glanced toward me. Her fawn eyes
misted as though she had just said good-bye to a beloved teddy bear."
                The first paragraph of _The Jehovah Contract_
-- 
Ward Griffiths      wdg3rd@comcast.net

It's questionable for a doctor to get involved with one of his
patients.  For a vet, it's right out.   Freefall Comic 3/23/2001

From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-27 16:34:22 PST

Ward Griffiths wrote:

>BPRAL22169 wrote:
>
>
>>>What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities?
>>>His style? His ability to create an emotive scene?
>>>
>>It seems to me occasionally that Crais is trying too hard.  I get that
>>feeling
>>occasionally from Poul Anderson, too.  I found Elvis Cole's
>>self-evaluation and self-description a little disturbing at times -- just
>>a little too self-approving for my tastes . . . though that is a matter of
>>taste.
>>
Bill: On this piggyback to Ward, I can't say I disagree about Elvis being a bit too self-approving in the earlier novels. L.A. Requiem begins to put an end to that, which is why I think it's a character development novel for him as well as Pike.
>>As some other poster has remarked, the Hard Boiled Dick genre has been very
>>extensively worked, and it's tough to distinguish oneself.  I think Crais
>>is generally successful, and I also think he makes a more credible
>>'successor to Raymond Chandler" than Robert Parker does.
>>
>
>Probably my favorite item in that "genre" is _The Jehovah Contract_ by 
>Victor Koman.  (Although Del Ammo isn't a detective, he's a career 
>assassin).  Previous dead-tree editions out of print, but available from 
>www.pulpless.com.  (Vic's later Prometheus-winning novel, a great Heinlein 
>tribute, _Kings of the High Frontier_ is available electronically from 
>Pulpless or as a hardcover from www.bereshith.com.  Yes, I've plugged the 
>book in this newsgroup before, and I probably will again).
>
>"I've seen it all and I've done half of it. Frankly, I was ready to cash it
>in. So the word from the doctor didn't hit me too hard. I was halfway
>through the Times when Evangeline, his nurse, poked her gorgeous
>head into the waiting room and glanced toward me. Her fawn eyes
>misted as though she had just said good-bye to a beloved teddy bear."
>       The first paragraph of _The Jehovah Contract_
>
Ward: Victor Koman joined The Heinlein Society some time back.

I've written him asking him consider being one of our chat guest authors.

I'm waiting to hear back -- if you contact him occasionally, let him know, please.

--
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
        Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
        Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

From: Teresa Redmond (pixelmeow@yahoo.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-27 15:10:58 PST

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:05:53 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net>quoth:

>Jane Davitt wrote:
>
>>James Gifford wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed?
>>>
>>>Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring 
>>>about him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!"
>>>
>
>
>By the way, Jim, tell Audrey we'd be pleased to have her join the chat.
>
>
>>
>>Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm weird...she 
>>has to be wrong :-))
>
>Jane: Let me ask this: What did you think of the scene in the second 
>flashback of L.A. Requiem, quoting for evaluation of Crais' style here:
>
>" . . . Pike's window came down and he looked out at her. 'Yes, Ma'am?'
>
>"Karen Garcia leaned forward with her hands on the window. 'I have a 
>request.'
>
>"He stared at her, and her mouth went dry. She absolutely knew she was 
>making a fool of herself. 'Would you take off your glasses, please? I'd 
>like to see your eyes.'
>
>"The older officer made a face like he wanted to spit; irritated, as if 
>she had interrupted something. 'Oh, for Christ's sake.'
>
>"Officer Pike took off his dark glasses, and looked at her.
>
>"She felt her breath catch. His eyes were the most liquid blue, the blue 
>of the sky over the high deserts of Sonora, the blue of the ocean that 
>has no bottom, and is infinitely clean. But it wasn't the blue that 
>stopped her breath. For just a moment when the glasses were pulled away, 
>she could have sworn that those eyes were filled with the most terrible 
>and long-endured pain. Then the pain was gone and there was only the blue.
>
>  "Karen Garcia said, 'Would you like to go to a movie with me this Friday 
>night?'
>
>  "Pike stared at her for so many hartbeats that she wondered if she'd 
>really spoken the words aloud. But then, slowly, he fitted the dark 
>glasses over the incredible eyes again and put out his hand for her to 
>take. 'My name is Joe. May I have your phone number?'
>
>  "When he touched her, she quivered."
>                  -- L.A. Requiem, end of Chapter 3
>
>What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities? 
>His style? His ability to create an emotive scene?

...wow.... <shake>Okay, I have to read this.

-- 
~teresa~

 ^..^    "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein    ^..^
  http://www.heinleinsociety.org/  
 "Blert!!!"  quoth Pixel, a small, yellow cat.
  email me at pixelmeow at aol dot com
  Yahoo Messenger and AIM id = pixelmeow

From: TreetopAngel RN, BSN (zyoumans@bigsky.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-27 15:54:13 PST "Teresa Redmond" wrote:

>...wow....  <shake>Okay, I have to read this.
>
>--
>~teresa~
>
I have now purchased two books based on comments from AFH. "LA Requiem" is one of them. I started it this morning and am halfway through. It is wonderful and I can't wait to go find the rest of Robert Crais' books.

That excerpt is really powerful.

TreetopAngel


From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 03:56:50 PST

TreetopAngel RN, BSN wrote:

>"Teresa Redmond" wrote:
>
>
>>...wow....  <shake>Okay, I have to read this.
>>
>>--
>>~teresa~
>>
>>
>I have now purchased two books based on comments from AFH.  "LA Requiem" is
>one of them.  I started it this morning and am halfway through.  It is
>wonderful and I can't wait to go find the rest of Robert Crais' books.
>
>That excerpt is really powerful.
>
Glad you're enjoying it. Hope a lot of you are.
--
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
        Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
        Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 09:02:29 PST

David Silver wrote:

>Jane Davitt wrote:
>
>>James Gifford wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A dragon's tooth as in a warrior grown from seed?
>>>
>>>Good characterization of Pike. Every time I say something admiring 
>>>about him, Audrey looks at me blankly and says, "But he's a *psycho*!"
>>>
>
>
>By the way, Jim, tell Audrey we'd be pleased to have her join the chat.
>
>
>>
>>Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm 
>>weird...she has to be wrong :-))
>
>
>Jane: Let me ask this: What did you think of the scene in the second 
>flashback of L.A. Requiem, quoting for evaluation of Crais' style here:
>
>" . . . Pike's window came down and he looked out at her. 'Yes, Ma'am?'
>
>"Karen Garcia leaned forward with her hands on the window. 'I have a 
>request.'
>
>"He stared at her, and her mouth went dry. She absolutely knew she 
>was making a fool of herself. 'Would you take off your glasses, please? 
>I'd like to see your eyes.'
>
>"The older officer made a face like he wanted to spit; irritated, as 
>if she had interrupted something. 'Oh, for Christ's sake.'
>
>"Officer Pike took off his dark glasses, and looked at her.
>
>"She felt her breath catch. His eyes were the most liquid blue, the 
>blue of the sky over the high deserts of Sonora, the blue of the ocean 
>that has no bottom, and is infinitely clean. But it wasn't the blue that 
>stopped her breath. For just a moment when the glasses were pulled away, 
>she could have sworn that those eyes were filled with the most terrible 
>and long-endured pain. Then the pain was gone and there was only the blue.
>
>"Karen Garcia said, 'Would you like to go to a movie with me this 
>Friday night?'
>
>"Pike stared at her for so many hartbeats that she wondered if she'd 
>really spoken the words aloud. But then, slowly, he fitted the dark 
>glasses over the incredible eyes again and put out his hand for her to 
>take. 'My name is Joe. May I have your phone number?'
>
>"When he touched her, she quivered."
>        -- L.A. Requiem, end of Chapter 3
>
>What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities? 
>His style? His ability to create an emotive scene?
>
>-- 
>David M. Silver
>http://www.heinleinsociety.org
>http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
>"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
>  Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
>  Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
>
I loved that scene and the twist that the story of Joe and Karen will take..hey, Joseph and Karen; an FF reference maybe?
From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 09:21:07 PST

Jane Davitt wrote:

>David Silver wrote:
>
>>
>>What do you (or anyone else) think about Crais descriptive abilities? 
>>His style? His ability to create an emotive scene?
>>
>
>I loved that scene and the twist that the story of Joe and Karen will 
>take..hey, Joseph and Karen; an FF reference maybe?
>
I goofed and this got sent before I'd finished or snipped; I'll try again.

I think you have to read the books in order to see how his style has evolved, getting progressively darker in tone and less reliant on one liners to carry the narrative along. That's not to say the earlier books were bad, they weren't, just that they don't have the polish and confidence of the later ones IMO. Monkey's Raincoat, which I think is the first one, has a very different Cole, incredibly aggravating sometimes because he won't stop joking, and an almost non existent Pike. Now in LA Requiem we get Pike in far more detail (fascinating and heartbreaking in turn) and we've moved away from Cole as being just a generic wise cracking P.I.

I'm hampered in this discussion by a lack of reference points in the hardboiled genre. I've never read a Travis McGee, a Dashiell Hammett...none of that sort of story. I like Paretsky and Grafton, it's not that I stick to cosys but that end of the spectrum seems to be 'for the boys'.

All the jackets mention Crais's books as being part of the hard boiled clan but I like them (and I've read every one, even Indigo Slam) so they can't be :-) Cole has a cat; an indispensable cosy genre tradition. He cooks. He has a romance. The stories have children (well written kids too, with plenty of depth) and they just don't seem to have that brooding, misogynist, always raining feel of the hardboiled story.

Jane


From: BPRAL22169 (bpral22169@aol.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 09:37:05 PST

Misogynist? No, the hard-boiled dick is typically hard-boiled to protect an interior life preoccupied with fierce dedication to humanity-loving qualities. Justice and hatred of hypocrisy are two qualities that come to mind as especially prominent in the hard-boiled tradition -- Phillip Marlowe particularly.

Bill


From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 10:19:17 PST

BPRAL22169 wrote:

>Misogynist?  No, the hard-boiled dick is typically hard-boiled to protect an
>interior life preoccupied with fierce dedication to humanity-loving qualities. 
>Justice and hatred of hypocrisy are two qualities that come to mind as
>especially prominent in the hard-boiled tradition -- Phillip Marlowe
>particularly.
>
>Bill
>
>
Well, I can't argue with that as I've never read any of the Marlowe stories either...I'm just curious as to what it is about the Crais books that makes people label them hard boiled. I can rattle off a list of qualities that make a cosy cosy but I'm at a loss when it comes to this style.

It isn't violence necessarily; I tell you, when it comes to gruesome ways of dying, a cosy beats a HB hands down. The imagination of some of those authors is amazing . Maybe it's that they're more realistic because of the setting but they aren't really; OK, it's less mind boggling that a P.I should trip over bodies constantly than it is when it's a housewife, a little old lady, an actor or a restaurant critic to name but a few - but is the L.A of Cole really there either? Is it as unreal as St Mary's Mead?

Jane


From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 11:43:02 PST

Jane Davitt wrote:

>>
>
>Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm weird...she 
>has to be wrong :-))
>
>Jane
>

Let me amplify on why he's attractive; he has an aura of complete trustworthiness. If you were his friend, if he loved you, you'd be totally and utterly safe if he was around. He is capable of intense violence but none of it is directed at 'good' people. Now some might say none of it should be directed anywhere but that's another matter.

Add into the mix that pain, vulnerability buried so deep you need a JCB to get to it and the blue eyes and you've got a babe magnet...though the not talking bit would bug me. That's not something most Heinlein heroes have..but there is one precedent; anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't got anything to say?

Jane


From: David M. Silver (agplusone@aol.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 14:39:14 PST

Jane:

>That's not something most Heinlein heroes have..but there is one 
>precedent; anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't 
>got anything to say?
But it is a fairly common trait for other 'strong, silent' types. I'd guess Manny without looking.
-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
  "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
  --Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, (1907-88)
    Lt.(jg) USN R'td

From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-01 07:43:44 PST

David M. Silver wrote:

>Jane:
>
>
>>That's not something most Heinlein heroes have..but there is one 
>>precedent; anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't 
>>got anything to say?
>>
>
>But it is a fairly common trait for other 'strong, silent' types. I'd guess
>Manny without looking. 
>
I was thinking of Mary in Puppet Masters; from memory, "she had that quality, rare in babes, of never speaking when she had nothing to say." Sam had a lot to learn.

Jane


From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-01 07:56:13 PST

Continuing with the identification of the Heinlein references which appear in each book;

In Demolition Angel, the villain who makes and explodes bombs, uses an alias of Kip Russell and codenames on his computer of Oscar and Peewee <gasp>. How dare he!

Then it clicked; what does the Mother Thing do on Pluto?

"She made two bombs and a long distance communicator-and-beacon."
She then times it to explode when various factors converge, one of which 
is feeding time for the Wormfaces,

"They all ate together when there were few enough not to have to use 
their mess hall in relays - crowded round one big tub and sopping it 
up,I gathered - a scene out of Dante. That would place all her 
enemies on one target, except possibly one or two on engineering or 
  communication watches."
Mr Red would approve....

Jane


From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-01 13:07:28 PST

Jane Davitt wrote:

>Continuing with the identification of the Heinlein references which 
>appear in each book; 
>

There's also a Buffy the Vampire Slayer reference in Demolition Angel; the heroine was invited to the prom by James Marsters (pause to mop up drool)...I haven't seen any more for Buffy but I'll try and get as many of the Heinlein ones as I can; anyone want to join in looking? Elvis lives on Woodrow Wilson Drive and Laurel Canyon gets mentioned a lot...no tesseract house though.

Jane


From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-02 08:13:45 PST

This morning I read a post from David asking about a specific incident in L.A Requiem. Now the server says that post has expired <sigh>. I think I can remember it well enough to answer. David, you were wondering why Elvis immediately guessed why two men would go off road and the police didn't.

In cosies as well as hard boiled it all depends on who the heroes are. If it's a Poirot book, then we have bumbling Japp. If it's a Marsh book, the police are brilliant becasue Alleyn is the hero. In Requiem the police are not only not the lead characters but they are biased against Pike; two strikes against them.

It also took Elvis a while to get to the real reason why the men left the trail; he didn't instantly go, 'aha!'. One of the men was married with children (I know, doesn't mean he wasn't homosexual but it also make that assumption lower on the list of possibilities for overworked cops). In fact, Elvis didn't even really find out himself; he visits Riley's office and as Elvis leaves, Riley's secretary, Holly tells Elvis that Riley and Gene are 'very close friends' and that they fell for each other straight away. Once he has that information it all falls into place.

Jane


From: Teresa Redmond (pixelmeow@yahoo.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 14:59:54 PST

On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:42:44 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com>quoth:

>Jane Davitt wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>
>>Hmm..I think he's sexy myself. If Audrey is right, then I'm weird...she 
>>has to be wrong :-))
>>
>>Jane
>>
>
>Let me amplify on why he's attractive; he has an aura of complete 
>trustworthiness. If you were his friend, if he loved you, you'd be 
>totally and utterly safe if he was around. He is capable of intense 
>violence but none of it is directed at 'good' people.
>Now some might say none of it should be directed anywhere but that's 
>another matter.
>Add into the mix that pain, vulnerability buried so deep you need a 
>JCB to get to it and the blue eyes and you've got a babe 
>magnet...though the not talking bit would bug me.
>That's not something most Heinlein heroes have..but there is one 
>precedent; anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't 
>got anything to say?

Wyoh?

-- 
~teresa~

 ^..^    "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein    ^..^
  http://www.heinleinsociety.org/  
 "Blert!!!"  quoth Pixel, a small, yellow cat.
  email me at pixelmeow at aol dot com
  Yahoo Messenger and AIM id = pixelmeow

From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-01 08:02:26 PST

Teresa Redmond wrote:

>>That's not something most Heinlein heroes have..but there is one 
>>precedent; anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't 
>>got anything to say?
>>
>
>Wyoh?
>
>

Heh, definitely not; she's a politician :-)) But Hazel as a kid is described as using lip glue.

Jane


From: Teresa Redmond (pixelmeow@yahoo.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-01 10:40:48 PST

On Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:01:54 GMT, in alt.fan.heinlein, Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com>quoth:

>Teresa Redmond wrote:
>
>
>>>That's not something most Heinlein heroes have..but there is one 
>>>precedent; anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't 
>>>got anything to say?
>>>
>>
>>Wyoh?
>>
>>
>
>Heh, definitely not; she's a politician :-)) But Hazel as a kid is 
>described as using lip glue.
>

I saw your post to David, and realized that Mary was who I was originally trying to think of, but had recently read MIAHM and Wyoh was the only one I could bring to mind. Haven't read PM in a while. Both babes, confused them in my mind. :-)

-- 
~teresa~

 ^..^    "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein    ^..^
  http://www.heinleinsociety.org/  
 "Blert!!!"  quoth Pixel, a small, yellow cat.
  email me at pixelmeow at aol dot com
  Yahoo Messenger and AIM id = pixelmeow

From: Simon Jester (simonjester@freeuk.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-01 05:20:33 PST

Jane Davitt wrote:

...
>anyone think of a HH who doesn't talk when they haven't
>got anything to say?
>

Paul Dirac?


From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 03:55:14 PST

David Silver wrote:

>Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat
>
>Theme:  Another Robert's Mysteries (in preparation for author Robert 
>Crais' guest visit on Thursday, March 21)
>
>Dates and times:  Thursday, March  7, 2002, 9 PM to midnight, EST and 
>Saturday, March 9, 2002, 5 PM to 8 PM, EST.
>
>Chat Host:  Agplusone
>
>Place:  AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat"
>
>Recommended Reading:  Robert Crais' novel _L.A. Requiem_ (1999, 
>Ballantine PB ISBN 0-345-43447-1) and _Hostage_ (2001, Doubleday HB, 
>ISBN 0-385-49585-4) and others, as references to them may arise.
>
>

We've one week to go before the chat.

While I'm waiting for enough folk here to acquire copies and read enough of L.A. Requiem to discuss without spoilers, I have another little teaser.

Gradually through the novel we learn quite a bit about Joe Pike, through flashbacks, and here's part of another. Pike is seventeen, enlisted with his father's consent in the USMC. It's 1971 or so, and although Uncle Walter Cronkhite had well assured us it was lost two years earlier, men are still going to Vietnam. Pike is in advanced infantry training at Pendleton; and his gunny has arranged for Pike an interview with another NCO, the one assigned to train replacements for its elite Force Recon.

The scene opens with Pike surprising both the Force Recon sergeant and his gunny by slipping closer to them without detection than both believe possible on a cameoflague and infiltration training range -- or whatever the smaller green machine calls those things. After Pike doffs the ghillie suit and is stood at attention before the Force Recon trainer, Aimes, after some humor, this ensues:

      . . . Aimes came around the other side of Pike and stopped in front of 
him; only now Aimes had taken anything even remotely humorous from his 
eyes and carefully folded it away. "The gunnery sergeant says you're 
good at hand-to-hand."
        Nothing again, and Aimes wondered why this boy said so little. Maybe he 
just came from people who didn't say much.
        Aimes unsnapped his fighting knife from its Alice sheath. He held it out 
handle first to the boy. "You know what this is?"
        The blue eyes never even went to the knife. "It isn't a K-Bar."
        Aimes considered his knife. "The standard Marine Corps issue K-Bar 
fighting knife is a fine weapon, none finer, but not to a warrior such 
as myself." He twirled the knife across the backs of his fingers. "This 
is a handmade fighting dagger, custom made to my specifications by a 
master blademaker. This edge is so goddamned sharp that if you cut 
yourself the asshole standing next to you starts to bleed."
        Horse [the gunny] nodded, pursing his lips knowingly as if truer words 
were never spoken.
        Aimes flipped the knife, caught its tip, then handed it to the boy who 
held it in his right hand.
        Aimes spread his hands, "Try to put it in my chest."
        Pike moved without that moment's hesitation that Aimes expected, and he 
moved so damned blurringly fast that Aimes didn't even have time to 
think before he trapped the boy's arm, rolled the wrist back, and heard 
the awful crack as the wrist gave and the boy went down on his back.
        The boy did not grimace, and he did not say a word.
        Aimes and Horse both made a big deal, helping the kid to his feet, Aimes 
feeling just horrible, feeling like a real horseshit donut for pulling a 
bush stunt like that when the private put those blue eyes on him and 
said, "What did you do?" Not to accuse or blame, but because he wanted 
to know the fact of it.
        . . . "That was an arm trap. It's something they do in a fighting art 
called Wing Chun. A Chinese woman invented it eight hundred years ago."
        "Woman." The boy almost seemed to nod, not quite but almost, thinking it 
through. He didn't seem bothered at all that Aimes had just broken his 
wrist. He said, "You used me against me. A woman, smaller, would have to 
do that."
                *     *     *     *     *
        "Will you teach it to me?"
                *     *     *     *     *
        The young marine didn't speak again until they were at the infirmary, 
where, in filling out the accident report, Aimes took full and complete 
responsibility for the injury. What the boy said to him then was, "It's 
okay you hurt me."
        That evening, still feeling nauseated from guilt, Aimes and Horse 
practiced the art of unarmed war in the Pendleton gym with an ugly 
ferocity that left both men bloody as they tried to burn away their 
shame. . . .

Does anyone see what I see here? A hint: as I noted four weeks ago in discussing Robert Heinlein's Mysteries, I love to find tributes, or tips of the hat, to those who have gone before in the writings of those coming along later.

     
--
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
        Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
        Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 09:16:25 PST

David Silver wrote:

>
>Does anyone see what I see here? A hint: as I noted four weeks ago in 
>discussing Robert Heinlein's Mysteries, I love to find tributes, or tips 
>of the hat, to those who have gone before in the writings of those 
>coming along later.
> 

ST, when Breckenridge's wrist gets snapped by Zim?

Jane


From: Steve Burwen

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 11:03:23 PST

"Jane Davitt" <jdavitt01@rogers.com>wrote in message news:3C7E6596.6070501@rogers.com...

>David Silver wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Does anyone see what I see here? A hint: as I noted four weeks ago in
>>discussing Robert Heinlein's Mysteries, I love to find tributes, or tips
>>of the hat, to those who have gone before in the writings of those
>>coming along later.
>>
>
>ST, when Breckenridge's wrist gets snapped by Zim?
>
>Jane
>

It's been many years since I last read it, but IIRC, wasn't it a "greenstick fractuh" of his thumb?

--Steve B.


From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 11:36:12 PST

Steve Burwen wrote:

>"Jane Davitt" <jdavitt01@rogers.com>wrote in message 
>>ST, when Breckenridge's wrist gets snapped by Zim?
>>
>>Jane
>>
>>
>
>It's been many years since I last read it, but IIRC, wasn't it a "greenstick
>fractuh" of his thumb?
>
>--Steve B.
>

You made me walk all the way over to my library and check and then I'm right after all. Don't you know exercise is bad for you? <g> It said,

"It started - and it was over. The big recruit was sitting on the 
ground, holding his left wrist in his right hand. He didn't say 
anything.
Zim bent over him."Broken?"
"Reckon it might be...suh."
"I'm sorry. You hurried me a little."

What is a greenstick fracture anyway? Green sticks don't snap, they bend?

Jane


From: TreetopAngel RN, BSN (zyoumans@bigsky.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 12:45:28 PST

"Jane Davitt" <jdavitt01@rogers.com>wrote in message news:3C7E8648.8050602@rogers.com...

<snip>

< What is a greenstick fracture anyway? Green sticks don't snap, they bend?
>
>Jane
>

Something else you really don't want your bones to do. Greenstick fractures leave the bone "mostly" whole. There are little splinters coming out at the top of the bend and crushed bone tissue at the bottom. This severely weakens the bone and allows for odd calcium or cartilage deposits between the splinters. And it is terribly painful, to boot!

TreetopAngel

(whose Dad had a greenstick fx of his ankle many moons ago)


From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 14:00:54 PST

Jane Davitt wrote:

>Steve Burwen wrote:
>
>>"Jane Davitt" <jdavitt01@rogers.com>wrote in message
>
>
>>>ST, when Breckenridge's wrist gets snapped by Zim?
>>>
>>>Jane
>>>

[snip]


>>
>
>You made me walk all the way over to my library and check and then I'm 
>right after all. Don't you know exercise is bad for you? <g>
>It said,
>"It started - and it was over. The big recruit was sitting on the 
>ground, holding his left wrist in his right hand. He didn't say anything.
>Zim bent over him."Broken?"
>"Reckon it might be...suh."
>"I'm sorry. You hurried me a little."

So far so good, but . . . look again at the final paragraph I quoted.

Doesn't it look as if he's conflated Zim and Breckenridge into Zim and Frankel after Hendricks? A Twofer?

--
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
        Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
        Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

From: Jane Davitt (jdavitt01@rogers.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 14:14:17 PST

David Silver wrote:

>
>So far so good, but . . . look again at the final paragraph I quoted.
>
>Doesn't it look as if he's conflated Zim and Breckenridge into Zim and 
>Frankel after Hendricks? A Twofer?
>

Lucky for you I hadn't put the book back on the shelf...:-) Yes, Frankel and Zim expiate their guilt by fighting too,

"If you're not too busy this evening, why don't you bring your soft 
shoes and your pads over to officers' row and we'll go waltzing 
Matilda? Say about eight o'clock."
and a few sentences later,
"Seriously, Charlie, we've had a miserable day and it's going to be 
worse before it gets better. If you and I work up a good sweat and 
swap a few bumps, maybe we'll be able to sleep tonight despite all 
of mother's little darlings."

The last few words ring a chord with me; I know how guilty you feel when a child gets hurt through your carelessness, even if it's just a bump followed by a few tears. Can't say I take that way of resolving the issue though but I can dimly get why they do it. They hurt someone and they can't beat themselves up to make it equal out so they do it to each other.

Jane


From: Steve Burwen

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-02-28 16:13:03 PST

"David Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>wrote in message news:3C7E1A9E.8020002@verizon.net...

>David Silver wrote:
>
>>Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat
>>
>>Theme:  Another Robert's Mysteries (in preparation for author Robert
>>Crais' guest visit on Thursday, March 21)
>>
>>Dates and times:  Thursday, March  7, 2002, 9 PM to midnight, EST and
>>Saturday, March 9, 2002, 5 PM to 8 PM, EST.
>>
>>Chat Host:  Agplusone
>>
>>Place:  AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat"
>>
>>Recommended Reading:  Robert Crais' novel _L.A. Requiem_ (1999,
>>Ballantine PB ISBN 0-345-43447-1) and _Hostage_ (2001, Doubleday HB,
>>ISBN 0-385-49585-4) and others, as references to them may arise.
>>
>>
>
>
>We've one week to go before the chat.
>
>
>While I'm waiting for enough folk here to acquire copies and read enough
>of L.A. Requiem to discuss without spoilers, I have another little teaser.
>
>Gradually through the novel we learn quite a bit about Joe Pike, through
>flashbacks, and here's part of another. Pike is seventeen, enlisted with
>his father's consent in the USMC. It's 1971 or so, and although Uncle
>Walter Cronkhite had well assured us it was lost two years earlier, men
>are still going to Vietnam. Pike is in advanced infantry training at
>Pendleton; and his gunny has arranged for Pike an interview with another
>NCO, the one assigned to train replacements for its elite Force Recon.
>
>The scene opens with Pike surprising both the Force Recon sergeant and
>his gunny by slipping closer to them without detection than both believe
>possible on a cameoflague and infiltration training range -- or whatever
>the smaller green machine calls those things. After Pike doffs the
>ghillie suit and is stood at attention before the Force Recon trainer,
>Aimes, after some humor, this ensues:
>
>. . . Aimes came around the other side of Pike and stopped in front of
>him; only now Aimes had taken anything even remotely humorous from his
>eyes and carefully folded it away. "The gunnery sergeant says you're
>good at hand-to-hand."
>Nothing again, and Aimes wondered why this boy said so little. Maybe he
>just came from people who didn't say much.
>Aimes unsnapped his fighting knife from its Alice sheath. He held it out
>handle first to the boy. "You know what this is?"
>The blue eyes never even went to the knife. "It isn't a K-Bar."
>Aimes considered his knife. "The standard Marine Corps issue K-Bar
>fighting knife is a fine weapon, none finer, but not to a warrior such
>as myself." He twirled the knife across the backs of his fingers. "This
>is a handmade fighting dagger, custom made to my specifications by a
>master blademaker. This edge is so goddamned sharp that if you cut
>yourself the asshole standing next to you starts to bleed."
>Horse [the gunny] nodded, pursing his lips knowingly as if truer words
>were never spoken.
>Aimes flipped the knife, caught its tip, then handed it to the boy who
>held it in his right hand.
>Aimes spread his hands, "Try to put it in my chest."
>Pike moved without that moment's hesitation that Aimes expected, and he
>moved so damned blurringly fast that Aimes didn't even have time to
>think before he trapped the boy's arm, rolled the wrist back, and heard
>the awful crack as the wrist gave and the boy went down on his back.
>The boy did not grimace, and he did not say a word.
>Aimes and Horse both made a big deal, helping the kid to his feet, Aimes
>feeling just horrible, feeling like a real horseshit donut for pulling a
>bush stunt like that when the private put those blue eyes on him and
>said, "What did you do?" Not to accuse or blame, but because he wanted
>to know the fact of it.
>. . . "That was an arm trap. It's something they do in a fighting art
>called Wing Chun. A Chinese woman invented it eight hundred years ago."
>"Woman." The boy almost seemed to nod, not quite but almost, thinking it
>through. He didn't seem bothered at all that Aimes had just broken his
>wrist. He said, "You used me against me. A woman, smaller, would have to
>do that."
>*     *     *     *     *
>"Will you teach it to me?"
>*     *     *     *     *
>The young marine didn't speak again until they were at the infirmary,
>where, in filling out the accident report, Aimes took full and complete
>responsibility for the injury. What the boy said to him then was, "It's
>okay you hurt me."
>That evening, still feeling nauseated from guilt, Aimes and Horse
>practiced the art of unarmed war in the Pendleton gym with an ugly
>ferocity that left both men bloody as they tried to burn away their
>shame. . . .
>
>Does anyone see what I see here? A hint: as I noted four weeks ago in
>discussing Robert Heinlein's Mysteries, I love to find tributes, or tips
>of the hat, to those who have gone before in the writings of those
>coming along later.
>
>--
>  David M. Silver
>  http://www.heinleinsociety.org
>  http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
>  "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
>  Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
>  Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
>

Sure sounds like the scene with Zim and Breckinridge in ST.

The particular technique he's referring to here is probably a Chin Na technique, as it's called, rather than simply a trap, which, in Wing Chun, would be used to lead into the Chin Na wristlock. Many kung-fu styles and also tai chi styles incorporate these wrist and armlocking techniques.

--Steve B.


From: Helen (linnea4mapson@yahoo.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-01 08:30:58 PST

David Silver wrote:

<snip>

>But for now, let's look at his books, themselves. After some early short 
>stories, science-fiction ones, there came a series of mystery-dectective 
>adventure stories, all involving two partners, Elvis Cole, the 
>point-of-view character, and his partner, the somewhat obscure, very 
>unique, and sometimes utterly terrifying Joe Pike.
>
>I suggest we start discussion with these: there are eight of them, with 
>a ninth due out in August this year.
>
>These are, in order:
>
>The Monkey's Raincoat
>Stalking the Angel
>Lullaby Town
>Free Fall
>Voodoo River
>Sunset Express,
>*Indigo Slam, and the latest,
>L.A. Requiem.
>
>*Indigo Slam is a little hard to find as it was not published in the 
>United States, but in the United Kingdom. An U.S. edition is also due 
>out in August.
>
>We can move on to Hostage and Demolition Angel, his non-Cole-Pike novels 
>later; but let's begin with L.A. Requiem.
>

Wow.. would you believe all but one of his books are available at my local library. (Some are checked out though) And the one that is missing, is Lullaby Town, not Indigo Slam.

How cool. :) Guess I will have to start reading. I might even be able to read them all by the 7th.. depends on how long they are. :)

May even put an interlibrary loan request for Lullaby Town... we'll see.

Helen


From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-02 00:10:10 PST

David Silver wrote:

>Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat
>
>Theme:  Another Robert's Mysteries (in preparation for author Robert 
>Crais' guest visit on Thursday, March 21) [snip] 
>Recommended Reading:  Robert Crais' novel _L.A. Requiem_ (1999, 
>Ballantine PB ISBN 0-345-43447-1) and _Hostage_ (2001, Doubleday HB, 
>ISBN 0-385-49585-4) and others, as references to them may arise.

[snip]

With seven days left to the chat meeting, I suppose there's been enough time for books to be acquired and, at least, partly read, so now it's time to start talking specifically about L.A. Requiem, not teasing with excerpts. Spoilers follow.

L.A. Requiem is a little different than the other Cole-Pike novels. Hitherto, through six of the seven volumes (I haven't read the one published in the U.K.) the series follows a traditional formula. Elvis Cole, the front man of the successful detective firm, is, despite his obnoxious and irreverent attitudes, hired to do various things: protect the studio executive's family, and then recover the missing daughter from the cult that seeks to program her, see why the studio accountant husband disappeared mysteriously and find him if alive, discovery the identity of the parents of the 'adopted' Hollywood Star, and so on -- things that Raymond Chandler asked of Philip Marlowe, and Dashiell Hammet of his "Op," stuff of the sort that occupied Sam Spade, when he wasn't pursuing a love affair with Archer's wife.

Elvis Cole pursues his assignment, more of less cleverly, of solving the mystery, shaking the trees and bushes in his irreverent wise-cracking manner, wearing his loud shirts, the cartoon clock in his office ticking away, until something falls on him, or rattling cages until out of them something evil this way comes.

Now comes the Cole-Pike difference from traditional single operative stories: once Cole is close to accomplishing his assignment and faced with violence by those he's identified as miscreants, in comes the Pike. Crais runs the plot from that point on just as an infantry company in the assault would be run. Elvis Cole takes the role of the lead rifle platoons (his wise-cracking, garishly clothed self) to noisily reconnoiter possibility after possibility until he makes contact with the enemy and is brought under fire, then in rolls Pike just as a maneuver rifle platoon in reserve would be used to flank the enemy and, along with Cole, overrunning and destroying them with the added heavy fire of the weapons platoon.

Pretty slick, and good reading stuff if you like that, which I do if it's cleverly written; and Crais writes cleverly.

Crais has thrown away that formulaic plot, not entirely, but mainly, in L.A. Requiem. There's a detecting job, of course, but it doesn't come in the front door of Cole's office as usual. It isn't being done for pay either. Instead, an old friend of Pike is missing a 30-some-year-old daughter; and she quickly turns out to be dead, shot inexplicably while she was on her morning jog alongside a reservoir in the Hollywood Hills. The old friend is a self-made millionaire with lots of political influence on the city council and that results in the LAPD's downtown Robbery Homicide division being ordered to allow Cole access to their ongoing investigation -- about as likely an order for the LAPD to comply with as your finding hen's teeth in a bowl of chicken noodle soup.

Nevertheless, the LAPD Robbery Homicide division seemingly follows the orders the politicians, in and out of uniform, have issued it. But for half the book, they don't seem to be getting anywhere. Instead, while nothing happens, the first half of the book gives us piecemeal the backstory on Joe Pike, former LAPD officer, who killed his partner and, unjustly, according to most of the LAPD, got away with it -- they obviously hate him.

Finally, midway through the story, because he realizes R-H is feeding him doctored reports, Elvis Cole does his 'detecting' schtick and discovers what Robbery Homicide is really investigating: a series of five serial killings. Just as that occurs, based upon an FBI profile, the lead R-H detective decides to pin the last murder on one of the two guys who discovered the client's daughter's body when they went off a jogging trail into the bushes near a Hollywood Hills reservoir.

The lead R-H detective is a politician, not really up to the par ordinarily encountered in this elite unit established in real life over sixty years about by Chief Wild Bill Parker and Chief of Detectives Thad Brown, which doesn't mean his subordinates are on his level; but they're his subordinates and take his orders. The Deputy Chief in overall charge seems of the same stripe of politician behind a badge (probably a result of influence by the "NEA, unions and rampant liberalism" back when he was in high school).

The lead detective fixes on his prime suspect because the profile by the Feebies suggests the killer is the sort who would intrude himself into the case [by for example 'discovering' a body] and, under interview, the two guys who found the body when they went into the bushes seem to be hiding something.

Here's the first problem I have with the story; and let's discuss it. Good old politically incorrect I have lived in Los Angeles, except for six years when I was wearing a green suit my rich uncle gave me, since I was an infant. That's fifty-mumble years. Lemme see here now: two thirtish guys, both employed in artistic professions, one living in West Hollywood (known locally to some of the politically incorrect stripe as "Boy's Town") and one in the old Los Feliz area (adjacent to and aka Silverlake, also renowned for being an 'artistic' area) inexplicably duck into the bushes whilst jogging and seem to have something to 'hide.' And it doesn't occur to the pencil-neck in charge, or any of his subordinates to ask if maybe these two fellows were going somewhere where no one could see their intended exchange of affection for each other. I guess political correctness has finally come to the LAPD. Ramona Ripston of the local ACLU will be delighted. We've found another mouthful of hen's teeth, folk.

Elvis, of course, figures it out, not too swiftly or astutely I might add. Why would an author do that to us? Anyone? Jane? You're a fan of cosy mysteries. Do they do that in 'cosy ones,' too?

Why?

-- 
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
        Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
        Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-02 09:26:46 PST

David Silver wrote:

>David Silver wrote:
>
>>Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat
>>
>>Theme:  Another Robert's Mysteries (in preparation for author Robert 
>>Crais' guest visit on Thursday, March 21)
>
>[snip]
>
>>Recommended Reading:  Robert Crais' novel _L.A. Requiem_ (1999, 
>>Ballantine PB ISBN 0-345-43447-1) and _Hostage_ (2001, Doubleday HB, 
>>ISBN 0-385-49585-4) and others, as references to them may arise.
>
>[snip]
>
>
>With seven days left to the chat meeting, I suppose there's been enough 
>time for books to be acquired and, at least, partly read, so now it's 
>time to start talking specifically about L.A. Requiem, not teasing with 
>excerpts. Spoilers follow.
>
>L.A. Requiem is a little different than the other Cole-Pike novels. 
>Hitherto, through six of the seven volumes (I haven't read the one 
>published in the U.K.) the series follows a traditional formula. Elvis 
>Cole, the front man of the successful detective firm, is, despite his 
>obnoxious and irreverent attitudes, hired to do various things: protect 
>the studio executive's family, and then recover the missing daughter 
>from the cult that seeks to program her, see why the studio accountant 
>husband disappeared mysteriously and find him if alive,  discovery the 
>identity of the parents of the 'adopted' Hollywood Star, and so on -- 
>things that Raymond Chandler asked of Philip Marlowe, and Dashiell 
>Hammet of his "Op," stuff of the sort that occupied Sam Spade, when he 
>wasn't pursuing a love affair with Archer's wife.
>
>Elvis Cole pursues his assignment, more of less cleverly, of solving the 
>mystery, shaking the trees and bushes in his irreverent wise-cracking 
>manner, wearing his loud shirts, the cartoon clock in his office ticking 
>away, until something falls on him, or rattling cages until out of them 
>something evil this way comes.
>
>Now comes the Cole-Pike difference from traditional single operative 
>stories: once Cole is close to accomplishing his assignment and faced 
>with violence by those he's identified as miscreants, in comes the Pike. 
>Crais runs the plot from that point on just as an infantry company in 
>the assault would be run. Elvis Cole takes the role of the lead rifle 
>platoons (his wise-cracking, garishly clothed self) to noisily 
>reconnoiter possibility after possibility until he makes contact with 
>the enemy and is brought under fire, then in rolls Pike just as a 
>maneuver rifle platoon in reserve would be used to flank the enemy and, 
>along with Cole, overrunning and destroying them with the added heavy 
>fire of the weapons platoon.
>
>Pretty slick, and good reading stuff if you like that, which I do if 
>it's cleverly written; and Crais writes cleverly.
>
>Crais has thrown away that formulaic plot, not entirely, but mainly, in 
>L.A. Requiem. There's a detecting job, of course, but it doesn't come in 
>the front door of Cole's office as usual. It isn't being done for pay 
>either. Instead, an old friend of Pike is missing a 30-some-year-old 
>daughter; and she quickly turns out to be dead, shot inexplicably while 
>she was on her morning jog alongside a reservoir in the Hollywood Hills. 
>The old friend is a self-made millionaire with lots of political 
>influence on the city council and that results in the LAPD's downtown 
>Robbery Homicide division being ordered to allow Cole access to their 
>ongoing investigation -- about as likely an order for the LAPD to comply 
>with as your finding hen's teeth in a bowl of chicken noodle soup.
>
>Nevertheless, the LAPD Robbery Homicide division seemingly follows the 
>orders the politicians, in and out of uniform, have issued it. But for 
>half the book, they don't seem to be getting anywhere. Instead, while 
>nothing happens, the first half of the book gives us piecemeal the 
>backstory on Joe Pike, former LAPD officer, who killed his partner and, 
>unjustly, according to most of the LAPD, got away with it -- they 
>obviously hate him.
>
>Finally, midway through the story, because he realizes R-H is feeding 
>him doctored reports, Elvis Cole does his 'detecting' schtick and 
>discovers what Robbery Homicide is really investigating: a series of 
>five serial killings. Just as that occurs, based upon an FBI profile, 
>the lead R-H detective decides to pin the last murder on one of the two 
>guys who discovered the client's daughter's body when they went off a 
>jogging trail into the bushes near a Hollywood Hills reservoir.
>
>The lead R-H detective is a politician, not really up to the par 
>ordinarily encountered in this elite unit established in real life over 
>sixty years about by Chief Wild Bill Parker and Chief of Detectives Thad 
>Brown, which doesn't mean his subordinates are on his level; but they're 
>his subordinates and take his orders. The Deputy Chief in overall charge 
>seems of the same stripe of politician behind a badge (probably a result 
>of influence by the "NEA, unions and rampant liberalism" back when 
>he was in high school).
>
>The lead detective fixes on his prime suspect because the profile by the 
>Feebies suggests the killer is the sort who would intrude himself into 
>the case [by for example 'discovering' a body] and, under interview, the 
>two guys who found the body when they went into the bushes seem to be 
>hiding something.
>
>Here's the first problem I have with the story; and let's discuss it. 
>Good old politically incorrect I have lived in Los Angeles, except for 
>six years when I was wearing a green suit my rich uncle gave me, since I 
>was an infant. That's fifty-mumble years. Lemme see here now: two 
>thirtish guys, both employed in artistic professions, one living in West 
>Hollywood (known locally to some of the politically incorrect stripe as 
>"Boy's Town") and one in the old Los Feliz area (adjacent to and aka 
>Silverlake, also renowned for being an 'artistic' area) inexplicably 
>duck into the bushes whilst jogging and seem to have something to 
>'hide.' And it doesn't occur to the pencil-neck in charge, or any of his 
>subordinates to ask if maybe these two fellows were going somewhere 
>where no one could see their intended exchange of affection for each 
>other. I guess political correctness has finally come to the LAPD. 
>Ramona Ripston of the local ACLU will be delighted. We've found another 
>mouthful of hen's teeth, folk.
>
>Elvis, of course, figures it out, not too swiftly or astutely I might 
>add. Why would an author do that to us? Anyone? Jane? You're a fan of 
>cosy mysteries. Do they do that in 'cosy ones,' too?
>
>Why?
>

At 8:03 AM, this morning Jane found, on her server, this post had already expired. Let me see if this works for her to restore the question. She said:

"This morning I read a post from David asking about a specific incident 
in L.A Requiem. Now the server says that post has expired <sigh>. I 
think I can remember it well enough to answer. David, you were wondering 
why Elvis immediately guessed why two men would go off road and the 
police didn't."

"In cosies as well as hard boiled it all depends on who the heroes are. 
If it's a Poirot book, then we have bumbling Japp. If it's a Marsh book, 
the police are brilliant becasue Alleyn is the hero. In Requiem the 
police are not only not the lead characters but they are biased against 
Pike; two strikes against them."

"It also took Elvis a while to get to the real reason why the men left 
the trail; he didn't instantly go, 'aha!'. One of the men was married 
with children (I know, doesn't mean he wasn't homosexual but it also 
make that assumption lower on the list of possibilities for overworked 
cops). In fact, Elvis didn't even really find out himself; he visits 
Riley's office and as Elvis leaves, Riley's secretary, Holly tells Elvis 
that Riley and Gene are 'very close friends' and that they fell for each 
other straight away. Once he has that information it all falls into place."

"Jane"
--
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
        Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
        Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

From: David M. Silver (agplusone@aol.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-02 10:25:01 PST

Jane Davitt as I requoted her post observed:

>"This morning I read a post from David asking about a specific incident
>in L.A Requiem. Now the server says that post has expired . 

It's probable the reason the posts are expriring so fast relates to the number of 'clam' and alt.fan.panshin being made. ;-)

>I 
>think I can remember it well enough to answer. David, you were wondering
>why Elvis immediately guessed why two men would go off road and the 
>police didn't."

Actually, no. I was wondering why I, in contrast to both the police and Elvis Cole, immediately noted the possibility while I read. I really didn't need to know the particularities about some stereotypes inhabiting West Hollywood and the other area, either.

Could it possibly be that the author of a mystery makes it easier for the reader to 'detect' along with or in advance of the protagonist, by tossing out these big clay pigeons to be shot down? Is this always a good tactic? Is it a good tactic here in this story? Why?

>One of the men was married 
>with children (I know, doesn't mean he wasn't homosexual but it also 
>make that assumption lower on the list of possibilities for overworked 
>cops). In fact, Elvis didn't even really find out himself; he visits 
>Riley's office and as Elvis leaves, Riley's secretary, Holly tells Elvis
>that Riley and Gene are 'very close friends' and that they fell for each
>other straight away. Once he has that information it all falls into place.

Riley's being married explains why they, even in this day and age, have 'something to hide.' Elvis really doesn't figure it out until Holly hands it to him. I found that a little strained, for a "Hollywood detective." Goodness sakes, what would Shell Scott have said? Don't ask!

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
  "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
  --Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, (1907-88)
    Lt.(jg) USN R'td

From: BPRAL22169 (bpral22169@aol.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-02 17:32:18 PST

I read LA Requiem when it came out but haven't been able to find a copy in Santa Rosa -- I may run across a copy in Santa Cruz, though; I'll check tomorrow.

So anyway thanks for the recap of the story, David. It helps.

I did find a copy of Demolition Angel, which I think was Crais' next book after LA Requiem, and this books seems a lot more tightly written than LA Requiem. It's in an established genre but not using the suspense genre formulas so far (I'm about 1/4 of the way into it). Crais may simply have decided he doesn't need the formula crutch any more.

You mentioned that West Hollywood is known locally as a gay area; both Los Feliz and Silverlake have recently taken on that coloration, too -- Los Feliz in particular was recently the recipient of a gay "gentrification" trend. And let's not mention Atwood Village, shall we? I thought not.

Bill


From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-02 18:41:52 PST

BPRAL22169 wrote:

 
> 
> So anyway thanks for the recap of the story, David.  It helps.
> [snip]
> 
> You mentioned that West Hollywood is known locally as a gay area; both Los
> Feliz and Silverlake have recently taken on that coloration, too -- Los Feliz
> in particular was recently the recipient of a gay "gentrification" trend.  And
> let's not mention Atwood Village, shall we?  I thought not.

Why not? Atwater Village, not Atwood. "Atwater" refers to the Los Angeles River that runs along Riverside Drive on its southern side. I used to live in Atwater, and my home masonic blue lodge is still there. The entire Los Feliz, Atwater Village, and Silverlake districts are contiguous to the Eastern side of Hollywood, the Hollywood hills, and south of the City of Glendale. I grew up in that area. Further east and south lies "Frogtown," also known as Toonerville, (alongside the river and railroad tracks), Dodger Stadium aka Chavez Ravine, Echo Park, and downtown Los Angeles.

-- 
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
        Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
        Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

From: BPRAL22169 (bpral22169@aol.com)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-02 21:03:34 PST

You're absolutely right -- Atwater Village it is. I mentioned it because it is the northernmost -- I think I have the direction right -- boundary of the gentrification that ran out of steam a few years ago.

Bill


From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM chat, Robert Crais' Novels, Mar 7 & 11, 2002

Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein

Date: 2002-03-07 17:35:28 PST

David Silver wrote:

Simple reminder. Chat is tonight, starting in about thirty minutes. See 
below:


>Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat
> 
>Theme:  Another Robert's Mysteries (in preparation for author Robert 
>Crais' guest visit on Thursday, March 21)
> 
>Dates and times:  Thursday, March  7, 2002, 9 PM to midnight, EST and 
>Saturday, March 9, 2002, 5 PM to 8 PM, EST.
> 
>Chat Host:  Agplusone
> 
>Place:  AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat"
>  [snip]
>To attend our chats, and any reasonable person is welcome, you may 
>receive instructions on how to download and use AIM freeware on the 
>website located at
> 
>http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html
> 
>Email me ( ag.plusone@verizon.net or agplusone@aol.com ), or Dave 
>Wright, Sr, ( dwrighsr@alltel.net ) if you require further help getting 
>the freeware or getting into the room.
> 


-- 
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
        Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
        Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)
Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

mkeith54 has entered the room.

TreetopAngelRN has entered the room.

TreetopAngelRN has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Keith

DavidWrightSr: Hi Mike I mean

mkeith54: HI David, sorry was out of the room

DavidWrightSr: S'ok. I always arrive early to make sure I get a full log

mkeith54: As soon as the invite came through I log on that way I don't forget, I'l just have to follow along tonight, didn't get a chance to buy the book yet.

DavidWrightSr: I've only read one and it's not the one they

DavidWrightSr: have been discussing

mkeith54: well we can both sit back and watch

DavidWrightSr: Right on.

TreetopAngelRN has entered the room.

mkeith54: hello nurse, just had to say it 8-)

ddavitt has entered the room.

OscagneTX has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi everyone

OscagneTX: howdy

mkeith54: Hi

ddavitt: Looks like the usual gang are on their way; I see them on AIM

DavidWrightSr: Greetings everyone. Sorry about that announcement. I forgot that tonight was just the preview

ddavitt: You got me all confused for a minute:-)

OscagneTX: 's ok. It reminded me there WAS one tonight.

ddavitt: I was frantically paging thru the books

ddavitt: trying to get some intelligent questions ready

ddavitt: Now I have two more weeks to get intelligent:-)

TreetopAngelRN: Hi Everyone!

ddavitt: Oscagne, if SAcademy joins in, can you make your type bold so she can read it?

DavidWrightSr: I've only been able to find one book so far. 'Free Fall'

mkeith54: I didn't figure it'd take you that long, not from your posts

TreetopAngelRN: Hey Mike you watching the Animaniacs?

ddavitt: Hi TreetopAngel

AGplusone has entered the room.

mkeith54: not right now, just wondering if you'd get it

AGplusone: ah, hah .... made it

ddavitt: I have read them all and have 6 here in front of me

ddavitt: Hi AG

AGplusone: Hi, Jane, everyone!

TreetopAngelRN: It's my license plate!

TreetopAngelRN: Hi Jane!

mkeith54: ok

ddavitt: Free Fall is a good one

BRSTAHL has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: I enjoyed it.

ddavitt: Hi Bryan

DavidWrightSr: Didn't spot any Heinlein references

AGplusone: Good to see you, Bryan

ddavitt: Oh, there must be one somewhere...

BRSTAHL: Hello, thought I'd see what's going on.

ddavitt: Apart from the usual address

AGplusone: Anyone not enjoy Crais?

ddavitt: We're looking at Robert Crais books Bryan; he is GoH next chat

mkeith54: Actually I can't recall reading him and the nearest book store is 60 miles and I haven't made it yet this month

ddavitt: Library?

mkeith54: 20 miles and my library has more books

ddavitt: :-(

AGplusone: If not, . . . then perhaps we'll give Mike a reason to ride 60 miles in the next two weeks.

Heinleinsmof has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Bill

AGplusone: g'evening Bill

Heinleinsmof: Yo

mkeith54: going Saturday, if the weather co-operates

ddavitt: That is so far away...open one nearer; you'll make a fortune <g>

TreetopAngelRN: My dream job...my own bookstore!

ddavitt: Mine too:-)

AGplusone: How should we start this tonight. How about this? Why read a detective mystery writer? What does that do to illuminate Heinlein's science fiction writings?

ddavitt: I even have a name planned; Looking Bookwards

mkeith54: I would except I'm not sure many people out here read anymore TV has teir minds

ddavitt: maiden name was Ward, see:-):-)

mkeith54: oops Their

ddavitt: Worse than Puppet masters

TreetopAngelRN: Cool, mine is Bonfire Books...out of respect for Bradbury.

mkeith54: Ding ding ding

ddavitt: cool.

ddavitt: Or hot...

mkeith54: 451

ddavitt: Bill, before we start, has the Journal gone out yet?

TreetopAngelRN: 8-) it would be cool if I could get 451 as the street addy

ddavitt: Or in the phone number

Heinleinsmof: Yes, it went out last week. People are notifying me that it's arrived.

ddavitt: Oh.

ddavitt: Tim hasn't had his yet

Heinleinsmof: Jane's in the Tronna area, so hers would have to be 415.

TreetopAngelRN: Speaking of which, I expect to be ordering the whole set of the Journals when I get my tax refund!

Heinleinsmof: Strange --he's i Mission Viejo, isn't he? He should have gotten his already.

ddavitt: No; 519 actually

Heinleinsmof: I had some full sets printed up, so I'll be able to send them out more expeditiously.

Heinleinsmof: I see -- you're an outlying area, then.

ddavitt: Well, he hadn't had it yesterday

ddavitt: Yep.

Heinleinsmof: And I just realized Tronna is 416 anyway -- never mind.

mkeith54: how much

BRSTAHL: I'll have to check out ordering a set, if they don't give me any more unplanned trips.

ddavitt: Did I get one this time? As I'm not exactly in it

TreetopAngelRN: My tax refund or the set? :-D

ddavitt: If not, I'll order one too.

Heinleinsmof: I was shocked when Panshin wrote saying how good it was.

mkeith54: the set

TreetopAngelRN: I think it was decided it would be $85.00

ddavitt: Heh..I cancel my order then <g>

Heinleinsmof: Yes, Jane -- you're in it. You're a co-author. I think your name is even first.

ddavitt: Nifty.

Heinleinsmof: The $85 includes a subscription for the next three issues as well as all the first 10

ddavitt: I have an anti AP thread but his name isn't in the title so I think he's missed it

LadyS122 has entered the room.

LadyS122: hi

ddavitt: Mr Kiku one

mkeith54: ok, whenever payday rools around I'll order

AGplusone: G'evenin' lady

ddavitt: Hi there

Heinleinsmof: Oh, goody -- but he's peeking into other threads now. What's your thread?

ddavitt: Mr kiku's Age

Heinleinsmof: I read some of that earlier -- I checked the posts before signing on here.

ddavitt: AP didn't get he was old till the end

TreetopAngelRN: AP hasn't found it, yet. It is getting interesting.

ddavitt: Shows how well he read it

Heinleinsmof: There's a lot of that in HID

ddavitt: And says it's a fatal flaw cos it confuses the reader<cough>AP

mkeith54: Does AP get any of it?

ddavitt: I do agree with some of what he says but then bit that that come along and I go "huh?"

ddavitt: like that

Heinleinsmof: There's a lot of that, too.

SageMerlin has entered the room.

OscagneTX: How did you like that smarmy shot at the ng in a recent post of his?

AGplusone: Evenin' alan

ddavitt: Small drying up pool?

LadyS122: I never did get to read the books.. shame on me.. the only copies not checked out were at a branch too far away and I wouldn't have been able to get them til tomorrow at the earliest, so I decided to wait til I had more reading time.

ddavitt: Hi Alan.

TreetopAngelRN: When I read SB everyone over the age of 20 was old, so Mr. Kiku's age wasn't that big a surprise!

LadyS122: but thought I would lurk tonight anyway..

ddavitt: True!

SageMerlin: boy do I hate aol 7.0

AGplusone: maybe in the next two weeks before his visit, Lady.

Heinleinsmof: I haven't figured out quite what "pool" he meant -- sf readers?

ddavitt: Just us adoring acolytes in afh I think

Heinleinsmof: Actually I've found 7.0 more stable than 6.0

AGplusone: Let me know when we're done with alt.fan.panshin, and I'll get started . . .

ddavitt: Cos we're the only H fans left of course <sarcasm>

SageMerlin: I took me 15 minutes to get logged in

Heinleinsmof: ARE there any Heinlein sycophants in afh?

Heinleinsmof: "Idolators." That's the word he used.

ddavitt: Takes one to know one

LadyS122: we'll see..would be nice. :-) I like the occasional mystery.. haven't read any since I went through the libraries LoveJoys (I guess I like Cosies)

ddavitt: Jnathan gash? Couldn't get into them...

LadyS122: I loved the show.. the books weren't as good.

ddavitt: You go AG

mkeith54: I think psychophant describes me better

AGplusone: Is it a mystery why we'd read a mystery in a Heinlein chat group, then, Lady.

LadyS122: (shame on me)

Heinleinsmof: I'm holding out for just plain psycho.

AGplusone: What if anything would a mystery writer have to show us?

SageMerlin: you got it

OscagneTX: psychophant? A mentally ill pachyderm?

AGplusone: Even one who says he rereads his favorite Heinleins every year ...

mkeith54: :-(

SageMerlin: How about how to get away with ripping off Robert Parker plots and getting away with it.

Heinleinsmof: Well - it certainly shows how he's spreading around the other bodies of genre literature.

LadyS122: I think it is fine.. I think the best books I have read (including the cheap harlequins) were better with a mystery for a plot

ddavitt: He does like that elephant allegory

SageMerlin: over and over agian

SageMerlin: On a certain level, all novels are mystery novels.

LadyS122: so I have noticed.

Heinleinsmof: I've only read his last three books -- no two alike.

ddavitt: How's that Alan?

SageMerlin: Hamlet: did the king really do it.

ddavitt: Where is the mystery in a cowboy say?

SageMerlin: MacBeth: is MacBeth Really going to do it.

ddavitt: Could have phrased that better...

SageMerlin: To kill a mockingbird???

AGplusone: who are 'dem masked guys?

ddavitt: But they ARE murder mysteries

BRSTAHL: Who really shot the sheriff?

SageMerlin: People die.

Heinleinsmof: You might have to broaden the classification out to include "suspense" as well as mystery.

OscagneTX: mystery in a cowboy book... How is the white-hat going to kill the black-hat?

SageMerlin: How many novels have you read where no one dies?

ddavitt: About to type lots and then stopped to think

ddavitt: Hmm...

ddavitt: Some definitely

SageMerlin: I use the term mystery here to describe the process through which the protagonist discovers something, learns something.

Heinleinsmof: I defy you to find a death in any Howells novel or James, either. It Just Isn't Done, you know.

TreetopAngelRN: Harlequin Romances:-[

DavidWrightSr: Gaudy Night by Dorothy Sayers. No one died during the novel, but a death had a part in setting it up

LadyS122: Harlequins have death

ddavitt: Georgette Heyer

SageMerlin: No but people die of boredom reading James

ddavitt: Deaths in some but not all

Heinleinsmof: Good point.

TreetopAngelRN: not the ones I read a long time ago

SageMerlin: So that amounts to the same thing

ddavitt: Though she did write a dozen murder stories too

Heinleinsmof: Your logic is impeccable.

Heinleinsmof: I can't remember -- did anyone die in Murder Must Advertise?

LadyS122: Of course.. the ones a long time ago (mid 80s) didn't uaully have a lot of sex either, unless it was about a couple who was previously married getting back together. :-)

AGplusone: Funny how someone like James translates so nicely when BBC does it, but drive you mad when you read it ....

ddavitt: initial murder

ddavitt: On the stairs

SageMerlin: Because the descriptions turn into camera angles.

TreetopAngelRN: I am talking about the early 80's.

mkeith54: how about the Hardy Boys? Had to reach way back for that

ddavitt: Not sure about book itself

Heinleinsmof: Oh, the BBC Golden Bowl nearly drove me mad.

ddavitt: Does it have to be a violent death?

SageMerlin: Hell, wait a minute

Heinleinsmof: Right -- I forgot -- that's how Whimsey gets there in the first place.

SageMerlin: You don't have to have a death to have a mystery

mkeith54: I think to the one who dies all deaths are violent

AGplusone: Heinlein said he wrote 'speculative fiction' because it enabled him a certain detachment of setting that he could use to say things about here and now .... does mystery detective genre do the same thing?

ddavitt: I have read murder mysteries with no deaths.

SageMerlin: I think it does in the hands of Crais and Parker.

Heinleinsmof: 'Tec stories are a highly formalized box that gives you absolute freedom to say stuff within those constraints.

AGplusone: Alan, for example, points out that 'real detectives' rarely do what fellows like Pike and Cole do ... or even Marlowe did

ddavitt: They sanitize murder a little

SageMerlin: In fact, most of the mystery writers working today are saying things about society in the here and now.

ddavitt: I'd never read a true crime story but I lap up mysteries

TreetopAngelRN: Yes, murder mysteries allow you to discuss current events.

AGplusone: MacDonald did it all the time.

ddavitt: free fall; Rodney king?

ddavitt: Was Crais' book before or after that?

SageMerlin: Rodney King wasn't a mystery but it was an incident.

ddavitt: 1993

AGplusone: Which is why so many in alt.fan.heinlein feel MacDonald wrote in the same voice as Heinlein

ddavitt: for the book

SageMerlin: It was after, because Rodney King is mentioned in the book

SageMerlin: Several times

ddavitt: Duh..haven't re read it yet; got it out today

AGplusone: King was before I had retired so it was before 90

ddavitt: OK; did Crais want to use it as an incident for a reason?

SageMerlin: 1989 folks

SageMerlin: How can you forget

ddavitt: It's a pivotal plot point

TreetopAngelRN: >>>has only read L.A. Requiem

Heinleinsmof: Just a sec -- what's the relationship of the Rodney King incident to the plot of Free Fall?

ddavitt: I was in the UK; we don't get all your news in detail

ddavitt: No need for spoilers?

Heinleinsmof: "Why can't we just get along?"

SageMerlin: Bunch of rogue cops get caught in the act on tape.

AGplusone: Why don't we talk about Requiem, then?

DavidWrightSr: Camera catching the crime in action

Heinleinsmof: Ah.

SageMerlin: Rather inCRIMinating

AGplusone: Jury bought the explanation, however ... you'll recall.

Heinleinsmof: Apparently not if you're an LAPD officer. The rules are for the LIttle People.

AGplusone: The jury in Simi Valley

SageMerlin: The jury was right.

AGplusone: That was what started the riot.

SageMerlin: A suspect resists, you put him down.

ddavitt: maybe Crais wanted to have a different ending?

ddavitt: rewrite it to suit his own convictions?

SageMerlin: The fact of the matter is that the cops in the King matter should have shot Rodney.....by trying to be humane they put the ax to their own necks.

ddavitt: The victim in the book was essentially innocent

SageMerlin: No he wasn't. He was fencing stolen goods

SageMerlin: He didn't deserve to die, true, but he was far from innocent

ddavitt: 'Essentially"

Heinleinsmof: Uh, LA has the second most corrupt police force in the country. I don't think the people of LA want to send that message to their police force.

ddavitt: Not a rapist/drug dealer/murderer

SageMerlin: No, essentially innocent means having done nothing wrong.

SageMerlin: No, all he does is convert the stuff that others steal into money to feed their drug habits.

AGplusone: anyone think it remarkable that the cop in Free Fall was named Mark Thurman?

SageMerlin: Not at all.

ddavitt: He did nothing that warranted his death at that moment at the hands of those people

SageMerlin: I thought it was a stitch

ddavitt: Who was he AG?

SageMerlin: Mark Thurman was the dectective in the OJ Simpson case

DavidWrightSr: Thurman --- Furrman wasn't it

Heinleinsmof: Mark Fuhrman from the OJ Simpson case.

SageMerlin: Yes, but we all get the point.

SageMerlin: Thurman is Fuhrman with a lisp

AGplusone: Mark Furman, you'll recall, spent a lot of time talking to that writer at UNC. They called her as a witness to prove perjury

Heinleinsmof: Strom Furhman?

ddavitt: Was that before 93 then?

SageMerlin: Who, by the way has written couple of very good true crime books since he left the LAPD

ddavitt: How soon you forget...

AGplusone: And Crais has a foundation benefitting Duke o

Heinleinsmof: If only --

AGplusone: I wouldn't be too surprised if Crais didn't know Fuhrman

AGplusone: or of him, before the Simpson trial

Heinleinsmof: Quite possible -- he was fairly high-profile within the Dept. around that time.

SageMerlin: Fuhrman was a figure in "Robbery Homicide for years.

SageMerlin: I had heard of him a couple of times before the Simpson case broke, all the way from

SageMerlin: Boston

AGplusone: Not Robbery Homicide, WLA Homicide

ddavitt: Does that incident in a contemporary mystery have more impact than it would in an SF book set on mars say?

AGplusone: there's a difference, significant

Heinleinsmof: RHD gets news exposure from time to time.

Heinleinsmof: I thought Krantz might have been patterned on Furhman.

AGplusone: RHD are the downtown hotshots.

ddavitt: Are there some issues SF is too distanced to deal with effectively?

Heinleinsmof: SF had a lot of experience with that around the late 60s early70's.

AGplusone: It can be, Jane ... and maybe the audience is too small

BRSTAHL: Robbery Homicide, now you've put the theme song from "Dragnet" in my head.

Heinleinsmof: (shame on us!)

SageMerlin: Hey, has anyone actually seen a picture of this guy, Crais

AGplusone: exactly. Webb modeled Friday on the old Hat Squad RHD detectives

AGplusone: I'm met him, Sage

Heinleinsmof: It's on the back of all his books. Man, I think he models Cole after himself

ddavitt: On his books I have

SageMerlin: I have one from 1995 and I swear he doesn't look 30

Heinleinsmof: And on his website.

AGplusone: He looks a lot younger than his age, even now

SageMerlin: I hnve only one book with his picture on it.

TreetopAngelRN: I think he looks about the age of my 26 year old.

ddavitt: He's not hard on the eyes.

Heinleinsmof: His face is starting to fill out -- he looks like Steven Segal's younger (smarter) brother now.

ddavitt: :-)

SageMerlin: He also looks disturbingly like one of my ex-business partners may he rot in hell if he isn't dead yet.

AGplusone: Paperback back flyleaf of Demolition Angel is what he currently looks like

ddavitt: i have that right here in hardcover

SageMerlin: I couldn't find Demolition Angel.

AGplusone: [crew cut]

TreetopAngelRN: Getting that one next then starting out with number one!

ddavitt: Stand alone but same universe

ddavitt: Samantha Dolan gets mentioned in it

SageMerlin: So the question is how old is this guy?

ddavitt: 40+ I think

SageMerlin: I make him no more than 40 tops in 1995

AGplusone: Same photo as the back flyleaf of the LA Requiem

ddavitt: Why?

SageMerlin: Because he is much younger than his characters./

ddavitt: Do you think he IS your ex partner?

SageMerlin: No.

ddavitt: First Elvis book was quite a while ago

ddavitt: They will have aged with him

Heinleinsmof: No, I get the impression cole and Pike are in their mid-thirties, and that would have been about right for him.

AGplusone: He takes a good photo ... hair is thinner than it appears, hence the crew cut

SageMerlin: First book appeared in 1987

ddavitt: 15 years ago; mid 30's

AGplusone: I'd put him in his late forties IRL

ddavitt: But about the same age as the hero

ddavitt: Only kinsey ages in real time...

ddavitt: And a margaret maron character

Heinleinsmof: No time travel threads!

ddavitt: :-)

SageMerlin: Did he actually serve in Vietnam? that's the question I am getting to

AGplusone: Dave, could you invite "rminvest" ....?

ddavitt: It's funny when the earlier books the offices have no computer, 3 books (10 years) later, they have the net..

AGplusone: Didn't ask him ...

ddavitt: Not Crais but others

SageMerlin: Reason I ask is that Spenser by virtue of having served in Korea at 18 in 1952 is now, let's see

DavidWrightSr: Don't see her.

AGplusone: rmpinvest

AGplusone: sorry

Heinleinsmof: My father's age.

Heinleinsmof: b. 1932

SageMerlin: 48+18+2= 68 years old

ddavitt: Is it on his website?

TreetopAngelRN: Spenser is getting into my realm of expertise!

AGplusone: He doesn't claim Vietnam service on website and it doesn't mention his true age, Janew

ddavitt: OK

Heinleinsmof: I had a friend who liked the Spencer for Hire TV show, so I tried to read some of them. Couldn't see what all the fuss was about.

SageMerlin: I have just finished a project on Parker, reading all the Spenser novels in order and adding up the number of times he's been wounded (eight) and the number of people that he and hawk have killed, 16,245.

ddavitt: That war has been well enough documented that a writer can have a character who's a vet without having personal experience..

Heinleinsmof: Parker is a better wine writer, IMO , than a mystery writer.

TreetopAngelRN: I thought Spenser was hokey, the hubby likes him.

ddavitt: Never read any.

SageMerlin: That's not the same Parker, but I think you know that.

Heinleinsmof: 16,245? Did they use tommy guns in these books?

SageMerlin: The point is that in any discussion of Crais, it is impossible not to discuss and compare Cole/ Pike with Spenser/Hawk

ddavitt: Or a bomb or two?

Rmpinvest has entered the room.

mkeith54: one gun, infinte bullets

ddavitt: Not if you haven't read any Spenser it isn't...

SageMerlin: Sorry, that should have been 162

Rmpinvest: Hello everyone, AGGirl here

AGplusone: Hi, Jane .... meet everyone. We have another Jane in the room ....

Heinleinsmof: *whew* I was about to join Jane's hand-gun ban.

AGplusone: AGGirl is guess who?

mkeith54: hi

ddavitt: More the merrier! Hi there

ddavitt: Not your daughter?

Rmpinvest: So, if it's not to presumptous, bring me up to speed

AGplusone: Not exactly.

AGplusone: But close

ddavitt: We're discussing Robert Crais's books

SageMerlin: How can you be close to a daughter without getting arrested.

ddavitt: Wife? No, wrong name..

ddavitt: I give in

AGplusone: sister?

Heinleinsmof: The last remark was that Pike/Cole have to be compared to Spencer/Hawk

ddavitt: Hello and welcome

Rmpinvest: Me too. How aprpos, forgive my spelling.

AGplusone: Spencer/Hawk from the Robert Parker books and that TV series "Spencer" which starred whatizname

Heinleinsmof: Urich? Another Robert, anyway.

Rmpinvest: Okay, okay, okay, yes, Urich, too late.

Heinleinsmof: And Commander Sisco.

AGplusone: Robert Ulrich and Sisco as "Hawk"

AGplusone: Avery something

ddavitt: Does Cole need Pike? most P.I's work in splendid isolation

TreetopAngelRN: I must read a Parker to see if there is a comparison...I have many to choose from.

SageMerlin: Brooks

Heinleinsmof: Don't try "Poodle Springs."

AGplusone: I think having Pike around makes it possible for Cole to be a 'good, dumb ol' guy' ....

ddavitt: Was that the posthumous one?

SageMerlin: Most detectives work in teams....rarely alone

AGplusone: warm and cuddly

DavidWrightSr: Pike's the cavalry. I could tell that was coming, so I didn't have to make any 'adjustment' when he showed up to save the day.

ddavitt: Not in books they don't

Heinleinsmof: Most PI work is slogging through documents -- not the kind of thing you can team-share.

TreetopAngelRN: which Parker should I start with, we have them all...

AGplusone: Can you imagine calling Pike "Studly Do-Right" for example and walking away.

ddavitt: Well, maybe the MEN need help but the female PI's don't..<g,d,rlh>

SageMerlin: A standard surveillance requires three teams of two each

Rmpinvest: How many titles does Crais have, I've read at least four, however don't quiz me on details yes.

BRSTAHL: But a partner's traditional, goes back at least to Holmes and Watson.

ddavitt: You wouldn't finsih the sentence david

ddavitt: More men..

ddavitt: V.I Warshawski and Kinsey Millhone work alone

AGplusone: Eight Cole-Pikes (including the one coming out) and two others

Heinleinsmof: No -- Warshawski hsa to have her fuck-me pumps!

Rmpinvest: So I have to read mail, whee!!!!

BRSTAHL: True, but I thought it was time I said something.:-)

Heinleinsmof: The high point of Kathleen Turner's career!

ddavitt: They are silent partners; hush puppies:-):-)

Heinleinsmof: LOL. ROFLMAO!

ddavitt: You say something whenver you like Bryan

AGplusone: Holmes and Watson were interesting, tho ... Watson's ignorance let Holmes tell everyone what a genius he was . . . over and over and over again

Rmpinvest: I'm back.

AGplusone: "Elementary, my Dear Watson ... "

ddavitt: Pike is almot not there the first few books; he is a silent partner literally

ddavitt: Developing him in LA Req was a good move

AGplusone: Really true ... Pike is little more than cavalry

ddavitt: Combined it with the lessening of the wisecracks for Elvis

SageMerlin: More like artillery

Heinleinsmof: I think Pike needs Cole. What I can't figure out is, why is it that Pike loves Cole?

TreetopAngelRN: Then I am glad I read Requiem first, I really like Pike!

SageMerlin: My question exactly

ddavitt: He and Elvis are more caricatures at first.

AGplusone: maybe Pike needs comic relief in his life, and Cole provides it?

ddavitt: He is a friend he can trust

SageMerlin: Cole is way too much like Spenser with the wisecracks

ddavitt: In a life that has had precious few

SageMerlin: But Pike is much more realistic than Hawk.

SageMerlin: Pike has scruples, where Hawk has none.

ddavitt: Yes; opening of Stalking the Angel he throws himself off a chair in front of a client; clown stuff

AGplusone: I think Cole is amused by the Studly-Do-Right aspects of Cole ....

ddavitt: Pike you mean?

ddavitt: A bemused amusement?

SageMerlin: Spenser is Hawk's moral compass. Without Spenser Hawk is total evil.

AGplusone: He's Wozniak. Yes, Pike is amused

ddavitt: An onlooker who can't join in himself but likes watching the fun?

Heinleinsmof: Possibly -- Pike needs Cole to talk to people. Pike has purified himself and honed away all that.

TreetopAngelRN: nods

SageMerlin: I don't buy that.

ddavitt: You just want to cuddle him...

AGplusone: Cole is an interface for Pike

SageMerlin: I don't buy that because Pike owns a gun shop.

ddavitt: If you're female that is

AGplusone: otherwise Pike just fires guns at the gun shop

SageMerlin: In his own world, talking to his customers, Pike may be --wouldhave to be-- much more greggarious.

AGplusone: goes home is practices BEING

TreetopAngelRN: he owns the shop, but he doesn't run it

ddavitt: you think he chats to the customers about their pets and holidays?

SageMerlin: Not true....he's sthere all the time

ddavitt: can't see it myself

SageMerlin: That's where Cole calls him

Heinleinsmof: There is that. But in a gun shop you don't have to set up a cracker barrel, doyou? You talk ... shop.

ddavitt: He's not a people person

SageMerlin: Exactly,

Rmpinvest: What an understatment.

TreetopAngelRN: the shop seems to keep going fine when he is not there

ddavitt: But the cat likes him. Animals; they can always tell

SageMerlin: Having once had an interest in a gun shop, I can tell you that talking about guns is a passion

AGplusone: He's got a lot of employees working for him ...

SageMerlin: Oh, you;ve been to the shop have you?

ddavitt: He can drop the shop when Elvis needs him

Heinleinsmof: Yes -- it's the kind of "clubbability" Lewis talked about.

TreetopAngelRN: just from what I have read in the book

AGplusone: and he seems to have hinted, other businesses ...

Heinleinsmof: But in talking shop you don't have to talk personality - there is no small talk

AGplusone: interests

SageMerlin: The economics of a gun shop are very precise....except for the Kittery Trading Post I have never seen one with more than four employees.

ddavitt: Maybe he can wax eloquent about a machine but that's not interacting really

Heinleinsmof: Yes, in LA Requiem there are hints that he has a lot of different business interests.

SageMerlin: Not to mention a thriving practice as a mercenary.

ddavitt: He has an office at Cole's place..but it's empty

TreetopAngelRN: I don't want to spoil LA Requiem...so I won't

SageMerlin: Well, there's no point in furnishing the office if he's never there.

AGplusone: Be willing to bet there's a call forwarding system at the gun shop too

Heinleinsmof: It really depends, doesn't it, on what kind of trade you have. There are specialists' establishments that might not take general customers from the public -- to the trade only.

SageMerlin: Can't survive on the specialist trade

SageMerlin: the mark-up on new guns is very thin

Heinleinsmof: Sure you can -- you don't deal in new guns mostly.

SageMerlin: Where gunshops make their money is on the resale of used guns

SageMerlin: Exactly the opposite.

SageMerlin: By cheap and sell dear.

AGplusone: And cops, one source, probably wouldn't patronize the shop, one the word got out who ownes it.

TreetopAngelRN: no kidding, paid a lot for my used pistol!

Heinleinsmof: That's the public kind -- it's like L.W. Currey jus tbarely will open their door toyou if you walk in off Santa Monica Boulevard.

SageMerlin: Of course, you did.

AGplusone: owns

AGplusone: I don't see Joe Pike waiting on the counter

AGplusone: He's the guy in the back they send you in to if you need something serious

ddavitt: He's a bit like Ranger in the Evanovich books..

AGplusone: Or maybe the guy who gives you shooting lessons

SageMerlin: If you own a gun shop and you want to make money, you HAVE to go to gun shows, because that's where you pick up merchandise.

SageMerlin: And that requires talking to people.

ddavitt: Probably a millionaire who has the shop cos he likes guns, not for the money

AGplusone: Thing is: we really don't know, do we?

SageMerlin: Agreed. Supposition is all.

AGplusone: We've never seen Elvis visit the shop, have we?

TreetopAngelRN: but still people with a single thread of thought

Heinleinsmof: And probably never will: the closer you get to this kidn of person, the less mystery, and the less we want to know.

ddavitt: I'd have to read them to know; he telephones it lots

SageMerlin has left the room.

SageMerlin has entered the room.

Heinleinsmof: Not only that -- Cole has never to the best of my knowledge mentioned that he got a gun from Pike.

AGplusone: Anymore than we've ever been to Hawk's place of business ...

ddavitt: I don't have the total rreacall with them that i do with Heinlein <g>

ddavitt: recall..gods I'm tired.

SageMerlin: Hawk has a place of business?

SageMerlin: Oh, right, the Jaguar.

AGplusone: Back of his Caddy?

Heinleinsmof: Incidentally -- if anyone wins a copy of The World Beyond The Hill from Panshin, I'd like to buy it.

AGplusone: <g>

TreetopAngelRN: LOL

ddavitt: Spot an error; get a free one

DavidWrightSr: Hah!

Heinleinsmof: David Wright is beavering away at the project.

ddavitt: Can't argue with those odds

ddavitt: Well, kiku is an error

TreetopAngelRN: yipee!

AGplusone: Okay, 1900 my time. Ten minute break, free chat. Time to go water the cat.

ddavitt: I will change the thread title to lure in my victim

AGplusone: be back on at 10 past the hour

Rmpinvest: Okay, on another note, and perhaps in conjunction, what about the folks who owned the guns hop in that Travolta flick, god it's got to be Alzhiemers, ah......

ddavitt: 'Panshin was Wrong About Kiku" or something subtle like that

TreetopAngelRN: Too subtle

mkeith54 has left the room.

OscagneTX: creepy, I was ready Horatio Hornblower today... and there is the exact story on A&E.\

LadyS122: the thread is Mr. Kiku;s Age ( I am reading it now

mkeith54 has entered the room.

TreetopAngelRN: AP needs a note wrapped in a brick

ddavitt: That's the one. I said I wasn't joining in any threads with AP or critic in the title..so i had to start a new one

OscagneTX: Jane... thank you for the Kiku's Age thread. I had been looking for an opportunity to stick the Asimov quote into the ng somewhere.

Heinleinsmof: I need to go -- I'm paying for access by the minute and about an hour is it for me.

ddavitt: I love that quotation; it says it all

ddavitt: Oh, night Bill

OscagneTX: 'night

TreetopAngelRN: Bye! Night!

AGplusone: nite Bill

mkeith54: nite

BRSTAHL: Good Night!

Heinleinsmof: 'deed it do. You practice on your subtlety, jane -- "PanshinCriticizes the Critics of Panshin" Something subtle like that there.

AGplusone: I'm boycotting alt.fan.panshin ....

Heinleinsmof: Hard to do that when the prep posts are there.

ddavitt: I am..but i can't resist reading it (for free)

Heinleinsmof: I gave up on that.

AGplusone: Yeah, but I'm staying out of the threads

Heinleinsmof: Any way, g'night all.

ddavitt: And when I see something so obviuosly wrong i can't keep it zipped

Heinleinsmof has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Nite Bill

ddavitt: I would love to see some contemp critiques of that book; all his readers can't have missed the errors then?

TreetopAngelRN: I have never even seen a copy of HiD...

ddavitt: Nor I; and I've looked for years

DavidWrightSr: He's posting it on his webpage

ddavitt: Yes; that's why i want to read it, to see what all the fuss is.

TreetopAngelRN: I don't trust what he is posting, just based on what he posts in afh.

OscagneTX: must be pretty desperate to post it and spam it like he does. I mean... it was originally a book for $, right?

DavidWrightSr: Says he still has it for sale

ddavitt: Lots is fine, if a little ...young..but it is flawed

BRSTAHL: There was a copy in my University's library; I tried it, but didn't finish...

TreetopAngelRN: I want the real thing in my hand

ddavitt: Just slightly skewed so it doesn't hit the right note.

mkeith54: is it a self published book?

ddavitt: To compare it word for word...

TreetopAngelRN: exactly

ddavitt: No, not then it wasn't

OscagneTX: I never tried it, really. Other than what's seeped into afh. I think Spider prejudiced me.

ddavitt: And it won the Hugo

ddavitt: For best book about SF or something like that

DavidWrightSr: It was a new category and I doubt that there was much competition

SageMerlin: Yes

ddavitt: I think it was just that it was a book about Heinlein and so people wanted it.

TreetopAngelRN: a gimme category?

BRSTAHL: That's why I tried it.

OscagneTX: That's the reason I bought the... whowasit... Neil (?) interview. I was kinda disappointed, though.

ddavitt: I have that too.

ddavitt: Panshin wrote it with hurt feelings and it shows

TreetopAngelRN: hubby is laughing...must see...

BRB!

OscagneTX: I've recently become amazed at how able I am at recalling Heinlein-related trivia. I'm sure I'd be blown away in this company, though.

LadyS122: I know I am. :-)

OscagneTX: I recently found myself answer a friends question by recalling from memory the general time of publication of Moon. I was more suprised than he was.

ddavitt: I'm not good at dates and things so I'm sure you wouldn't be in comparison to me at least

mkeith54: wow looked it up on B&N, it is a real book, 1968 copyright avail in HB 17.00

TreetopAngelRN: just a commercial! Oscagne--I feel overwhelmed in this company, too and I have been reading Heinlein for ages.

ddavitt: I have that "just an egg' feeling all the time on afh when some posts pop up about authors and events I barely recognise

ddavitt: humbling but challenging

Rmpinvest: Okay, here's the deal. I've maybe read only one of Heinlein's, and I think the title was "Stranger In A Strange Land."

ddavitt: That's the one

OscagneTX: what a one to start with..

mkeith54: If you read just one thet's the one

ddavitt: Blew me away at 14

Rmpinvest: So lead me.

BRSTAHL: What's bad is I see old posts with things I used to know, but now don't remember.

ddavitt: juveniles; read them next:-)

LadyS122: Then go tot the library and read some more. :-) It will be fun (and everyone ont he group wil be envious)

ddavitt: Been there Bryan...:-(

mkeith54: The Moon would be my next choice

ddavitt: Go raid David's bookshelves

TreetopAngelRN: I got lucky, started out with the juveniles

ddavitt: Me too

AGplusone: [ . . . none of the wimmen in my family listen to me . . . ]

ddavitt: Double Star is a good starter too

AGplusone: ['cause they're smarter than I am, of course]

TreetopAngelRN: only ones the library would let me check out way back then

Rmpinvest: Yes they do. And I will get juveniles, (lower case?)

mkeith54: Fist book for me was rockeship, all of 5 years old

OscagneTX: There are two now, that I haven't read, I think. Is _Time for the Stars_ the one about the telepathic twins?

BRSTAHL: Yes

ddavitt: Try my fave; have Space Suit Will Travel

OscagneTX: Ok... I haven't read that one.

ddavitt: I'm not so keen on that one

DavidWrightSr: I hate people who still have new Heinlein's to read :-)

TreetopAngelRN: <<ddavitt: Bit depressing

OscagneTX: I also never read S.Ship Galeleo.

ddavitt: Stra Beast is gret fun

BRSTAHL: My first was Starship Troopers.

mkeith54: me too david

ddavitt: That's another that's not his best

ddavitt: But still better than most

mkeith54: Hey when your young it's great

TreetopAngelRN: ST was on the adult (not X-rated) shelves and I was not allowed

AGplusone: I think Star Beast might amuse you ....

ddavitt: Heinlein wasn't wild about it either IIRC

DavidWrightSr: Which RSG or ST?

ddavitt: Doesn't Lucy's son read Space Suit in a Cole book?

ddavitt: RSG

AGplusone: Yes.

LadyS122: I still have some to read David... but I can't find them. Have to do an interlibrary loan.. I think they are Juvies though, Farmer int he Sky, Orphans of the Sky, and another.. can't think of the name off the top of my head

ddavitt: He recognised its limitations

AGplusone: In the one after Voodoo

LadyS122: Rocket Ship Galileo is on the list

AGplusone: when they are visiting

SageMerlin: And the desk clerk in Lullaby is reading Stranger

TreetopAngelRN: had to get a special dispensation at the age of 7 to go read some books without pictures

ddavitt: Requiem?

ddavitt: No, that's when she moves in

SageMerlin: I thought it was Sranger

DavidWrightSr: I didn't see anything in Free Fall. Was there one?

ddavitt: I have them all piled here; i will read them before the chat

ddavitt: There's always one; we needa list

mkeith54: My mom didn't belive in picture books or primers

AGplusone: Crais refers to Heinlein books and characters in his stories, Jane Ellen

ddavitt: I was gald I finally clicked on why the Dem Angel one

ddavitt: glad

SageMerlin: In freefall there is a Lt. Dees. I am sure there is a Mr. Dees in one of the books

BRSTAHL: My family thought I was odd for reading.

SageMerlin: but I can't remember which

ddavitt: Don't recall that name in a Heinlein

DavidWrightSr: Don't remember any Dees in RAH

SageMerlin: And Pinkworth I believe is the name of the one of the Venusians in between planets

Rmpinvest: Brstahl, very strange, but some people don't read.

mkeith54: There nothing odd about reading, not reading is odd

DavidWrightSr: Don't think so

ddavitt: No, i don't think so

SageMerlin: Okay, but I thought so.

ddavitt: poor Alan.

ddavitt: We're smacking you down.

TreetopAngelRN: not reading is odd, one of my sibs doesn't read

ddavitt: It's a weird mutation.:-)

SageMerlin: I am leaving.

DavidWrightSr: I have read that less than 1% of the population ever read a book.

SageMerlin: to get a drink

ddavitt: Phew

SageMerlin: Where did you read that?

mkeith54: my wife doesn't read, drives me nuts

ddavitt: Thought you meant it

SageMerlin: And how come I can never find a parking space at Barnes and Noble.

DavidWrightSr: Don't recall. It was years ago

OscagneTX: couple hundred years ago?

ddavitt: TV shareholder propaganda

mkeith54: picture books and coffee

TreetopAngelRN: I know people who are proud of the fact they have never read a book...they scare me.

SageMerlin: Why is the line at Borders longer than the check out at the supermarket.

ddavitt: Avoid them; it might be catching

SageMerlin: Hey, people think I'm strange because I don't have television

TreetopAngelRN: try to!

LadyS122: because there are more check-out lanes in a grocery store?

ddavitt: People who say they don't have time to read boggle me

ddavitt: What dod they DO in the bath?! (Don't answer that)

SageMerlin: I read five of these Crais books in the past week.

BRSTAHL: The 1% that does read is always there, plus the people picking up the latest Playboy.

AGplusone: Is there still a skating rink near the Broadmore, Jane? Ginny was asking the other day if it was still there.

mkeith54: TV is good for keeping others occupied while I read

SageMerlin: (Don't have a bathtub either)

ddavitt: I can do a book a day easily, sometimes more

Rmpinvest: I live in Colorado Springs, which can be great, except when the news shows those idiots shooting at the White House.

LadyS122: My mom likes to read, but she doesn't have time.. she works nights so if shhe isn't sleeping during the day, she is working. (that and although she likes to read, she liked to knit more. <G>)

ddavitt: My mum could knit and read

ddavitt: at the same toime

TreetopAngelRN: everyone told me I wouldnt have time to read when I started college...fooled them...I just got less sleep8-)

ddavitt: Unless it was complicated

LadyS122: My kids keep distracting me when I read.. just read Peter Pan (because of afh) and it took two days becauuse of the kids.

SageMerlin: I read at traffic lights

ddavitt: Like an Arran sweater

mkeith54: mine too

ddavitt: Did you like it?

SageMerlin: My son, whom some of you know, reads on average two books a day

LadyS122: how does she hold the book?

TreetopAngelRN: I read at traffic light (singular), too!

Rmpinvest: Yes. Only place I could buy a house at a reasonable price, coming from L.A.

AGplusone: Not the Disney, but the Barrie version!

SageMerlin: and is keeping up a strong B in college

DavidWrightSr: My wife's cousin lives in Centennial and he sent us a great cd of screen savers showing scenes of colorado taken 100 years ago and what it looks like today

ddavitt: On her lap in front of her

LadyS122: I liked it, but I didn't see a part where The Lost Boys and Tiger Lily were just elft to die

ddavitt: Tiger Lily is..water creeping up her legs

SageMerlin: Order Order....we are losing our subject.

SageMerlin: Oh, right. I'm not leading tonight, am I

Rmpinvest: Love you SageMerlin.

ddavitt: OK, Iam going in a min; very tired

SageMerlin: What is the subject,. I think I forget.

mkeith54: two burges and fries to go

LadyS122: OK.. I thought you meant at the end.. ok.. but they were going to kill her int he Disney version too.. was just done differently

AGplusone: Okay, back to business ......

ddavitt: One question; why so long before Elvis got a regular girl

LadyS122: Alright.. gotta put the kids down.. later.

ddavitt: Night!

SageMerlin: because thank god Crais didn't want to inflict another Susan Silverman on us.

AGplusone: I asked Bill to note the significant difference between Pike and the imitation Pike (Sobek) .... did anyone note what it was?

mkeith54: read to them

ddavitt: Is she in those books I haven't read?

BRSTAHL: Good Night!

ddavitt: Was it no love interest AG?

AGplusone: Night, Lady

ddavitt: I meant to reply and didn't

SageMerlin: siliverman is spenser's squeeze

ddavitt: get chance

AGplusone: No, he had plenty of love interests up in SF we can assume

Rmpinvest: What a lady.

SageMerlin: What a bore.

LadyS122: Thanks, and we usually read a story at night.. (unless it is really late)...

ddavitt: Sobek had a true love as Pike did?

AGplusone: but he imitates Pike in every respect, or parallels him, but one

ddavitt: Lucy disappointed me in requiem

SageMerlin: Choice of weapons

ddavitt: Didn't stick up for Pike

SageMerlin: Pike carries a .44 Sobek uses a .22 for the murders.

AGplusone: Pike fights a war in Vietnam, Sobek fights a war hustling on the street .... analogies, of course ....

LadyS122 has left the room.

SageMerlin: By the way, why is Cole so stupid as to not care more than the six rounds in his wesson .357

AGplusone: But what does Pike do, clearly, that Sobek can be said not to imitate or parallel by analogy. what's the difference in formative development?

ddavitt: I will go to sleep; night all. I'll have to try a Parker book beefore the chat

AGplusone: They are mirrors ... Sobek a very flawed mirror

TreetopAngelRN: stick up for the underdog?

TreetopAngelRN: Night Jane!

SageMerlin: Sobek is the negatives without the positives

OscagneTX: 'night

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: No. there's something Sobek never is shown doing

Rmpinvest: TreetopAngelIRn, nite nite

AGplusone: Pike, otoh, does it, and it is commented on

mkeith54: nite

AGplusone: by the Marines

BRSTAHL: Good Night, and I think I have to go, too. Class tomorrow, then have to spend the weekend on airplanes.

Rmpinvest: nite.

AGplusone: night Bryan

mkeith54: have a good trip

TreetopAngelRN: Night Bryan

BRSTAHL has left the room.

SageMerlin: How about a hint David

SageMerlin: Pike READS

AGplusone: The Marine Gunnies .... yes!

TreetopAngelRN: Yes!!!

AGplusone: Is that the difference?

TreetopAngelRN: Something Sobek would not know

AGplusone: Both beaten, abused children .... etc., and on and on ....

AGplusone: one read, one didn't

SageMerlin: Pike is a rescuer...beginning with the cat and culminating with Cole.

TreetopAngelRN: Pike takes care of.stands up to his abusers

SageMerlin: Actually, beginning with his mother

AGplusone: and where did Pike learn to rescue

Rmpinvest: Viet Nam?

SageMerlin: In Vietnam, where the team is everything

AGplusone: reading

AGplusone: I think that's Crais point

TreetopAngelRN: I think you are right!

AGplusone: I deliberatedly didn't quote what Gunnery Sergeant Aimes thought about reading, but go back and read what he said

AGplusone: or thought

AGplusone: when Horse brought up the fact that Pike read

AGplusone: . . . anything . . .

TreetopAngelRN: page #?

Rmpinvest: Where is Pike when he's not here?

AGplusone: page 141 in paperback

TreetopAngelRN: thanks

DenvToday has entered the room.

AGplusone: he's either being, or possibly, reading ... I would say

DenvToday: Greetings one and all

Rmpinvest: Howdy.

SageMerlin: He reads POETRY

AGplusone: Hi, Ron. "A poet would die for a rose!"

mkeith54: Hi

Rmpinvest: My nondeplume(?) is aggirl.

DenvToday: Good to see you all

TreetopAngelRN: reading poetry shows a person the idea of duty and honor

Rmpinvest: It also makes you think.

DenvToday: brb

DenvToday has left the room.

TreetopAngelRN: or gives them the notion of duty and honor

DenvToday has entered the room.

DenvToday: I love those short trips.

AGplusone: In combat they'll die for their buddies, because that's what they are trained to do ... but Aimes is looking for a few good men who will, if need be, die alone.

AGplusone: and reading, Aimes thinks, can instill that

AGplusone: very rare

TreetopAngelRN: And that is what he thinks poetry gives to a person, that ability to fight alone

OscagneTX: g'night all.

AGplusone: Night Oscagne

TreetopAngelRN: Night Oscagne!

OscagneTX has left the room.

Rmpinvest: Night as well.

DenvToday: Night

mkeith54: Goo noight folks, it's been fun

DenvToday: Take care mk

mkeith54: God Night, I mean, fat fingers all night

TreetopAngelRN: Night!

TreetopAngelRN: *READING FRANTICALLY*

mkeith54 has left the room.

AGplusone: Okay, so two weeks from tonight we get Crais himself

TreetopAngelRN: I'll be here!

Rmpinvest: You bet I'll be there!

TreetopAngelRN: going out to get more of his books tomorrow

Rmpinvest: I'm goin' to the library.

DavidWrightSr: Don't forget Saturday

AGplusone: We'll talk about Hostage and Demolitions Angel next two weeks ...

AGplusone: some about other Coles of course if anyone wants to

SageMerlin: Hey, those are the two I haven't read

TreetopAngelRN: I have to work Saturday...Nightshift!

AGplusone: Well they're the easiest to get. Last two published.

TreetopAngelRN: writing them down

AGplusone: Denv, anything you'd like to talk about?

AGplusone: Anyone?

SageMerlin: Sorry, David, but I am played out for the night

AGplusone: Yeah, I think we are ....

SageMerlin: I have to go to work anyway....rate lock time.

SageMerlin: Good night folks

AGplusone: We'll think of a few things to say about the next two novels I'm sure

TreetopAngelRN: what points would you like us to get out of Hostage and Demolitions Angel? You had to drag that last bit out with a page number:-D

SageMerlin: Nice meeting you Jane.

TreetopAngelRN: Night SageMerlin

Rmpinvest: Thank you, and I must away as well.8-)

AGplusone: Well, I'll write some tricky little posts ....

AGplusone: I'm devious

TreetopAngelRN: LOL

AGplusone: ask my sister

Rmpinvest: I'm still here.

TreetopAngelRN: sister's will always say that

AGplusone: that's cause you're tough

TreetopAngelRN: or taught their brother's very well

Rmpinvest: And LOL as well, see you guys later, I'm really going now.8-)

AGplusone: You're in Montana, right, Angel?

Rmpinvest has left the room.

TreetopAngelRN: Yes!

AGplusone: night Jane Ellen

TreetopAngelRN: Live in Missoula

AGplusone: Well, next time the elk are as big as buffalo, give me a call?

TreetopAngelRN: You want me to get you one? They might troop through town tonight!

AGplusone: LOL

TreetopAngelRN: It's snowing like crazy and they always come down off the mountain

AGplusone: What's the name of the actor who played the indian in Big Jake ....

AGplusone: you remember?

TreetopAngelRN: not me

AGplusone: "Wa'al, [he said, bitting off a chew] they say the elk in Montana as a big as buffalo this year."

TreetopAngelRN: LOL

TreetopAngelRN: Now I need to watch Big Jake again...

TreetopAngelRN: Yup, I have it on tape!

AGplusone: "Wished they was buffalo," sez the indian. "What say we go hunt some when this is over?" says the Big Jake.

AGplusone: One of my favorite scenes ... <g>

AGplusone: Anyway, I think we're about done ... glad everyone came and hope it was enjoyable.

TreetopAngelRN: Bruce Cabot?

AGplusone: yes! Him

TreetopAngelRN: Hubby scores the point

AGplusone: Good

AGplusone: Cabot got to be the good guy only a few times. That firefighting one ...

TreetopAngelRN: I had fun ....Hellfighters

AGplusone: Yes. Hellfighters. See you next meeting, Angel

TreetopAngelRN: John Wayne nut

TreetopAngelRN: Good Nihgt...I'm up ALL night!

AGplusone: <----that's my middle name

DavidWrightSr: He was one of Wayne's regulars

TreetopAngelRN: Good Night David and David and SageMerlin and Denv

SageMerlin has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Good Night

TreetopAngelRN has left the room.

AGplusone: Dave, got log?

DavidWrightSr: Got it.

AGplusone: Good night from New York, then ...

DenvToday: Good night everybody. I'm off to bed.

DavidWrightSr: So long

AGplusone: Night Ron

DenvToday: See you on Saturday :-)

AGplusone: :-)\

DenvToday has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 10:55

AGplusone: . . . and good night from NBC ....


Final End Of Discussion Log

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