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Thursday 02/22/2007 9:00 P.M. EST
Glory Road

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From: "Tim Morgan" <morganuci@gmail.com>

Subject HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING NOTICE

Date: 20 Jan 2007 17:00:26 -0800

HEINLEIN READERS GROUP MEETING SCHEDULED
WHEN: February 8, 2007, 9:00 PM EDT
WHERE: The usual AIM chatroom
TOPIC: Glory Road

Since The Heinlein Society is sending out copies of Glory Road, this seemed an appropriate topic for our discussion group this month. So no excuses about having your copy in storage! Not a member of the Society? Still no excuse: go to http://www.heinleinsociety.org and join!

Glory Road was Heinlein's only sword & sorcery novel, though it had a twist. George Scithers, at one time a student of Heinlein's brother Rex Ivar at West Point, published a leading fantasy-oriented fanzine in the early 1960s. Scithers at some point wondered "what does the hero of a sword-and-socery novel do once the adventure is over?". In answering this, Heinlein followed the lead of James Branch Cabell, who said that this form of his particular brand of comedy had three acts: the set-up, the resolution, and then what comes after. In Glory Road, the emotional satisfaction is in the adventure, not the attainment.

Two administrative topics:

If you would like to be added to a mailing list to get an email reminder for the readers group meetings, please send your request to David Wright at dwrighsr _at_ alltel.net.

The last two readers group meetings have been fairly well attended on Thursday nights, but not on the following Saturday afternoons, so you may notice that there's no Saturday discussion schedule for February. If you'd really like to continue having the Saturday meetings, please drop me a line at morganuci _at_ gmail.com.

Tim Morgan, for The Heinlein Society

(snip)

> 
> Glory Road was Heinlein's only sword & sorcery novel, though it had
> a twist.  George Scithers, at one time a student of Heinlein's brother
> Rex Ivar
> at West Point, published a leading fantasy-oriented fanzine in the
> early 1960s.  Scithers at some point wondered "what does the hero of a
> sword-and-socery novel do once the adventure is over?".  In answering
> this, Heinlein followed the lead of James Branch Cabell, who said that
> this form of his particular brand of comedy had three acts: the
> set-up, the resolution, and then what comes after. In Glory Road, the
> emotional satisfaction is in the adventure, not the attainment.
> 

(snip)

The major one, nevertheless, presents a clear example of Korzybski's principle of non-identity, "the word is not the thing", and the fact that all of our language represents 'abstractions' which should correctly match the structure of the 'real-world' event that it describes. Heinlein notes that the language used "stipulates ... the concept of identity", thus automatically being 'conscious of abstracting', another important GS principle.

"Questions?"
"Ask."
"Is sword?"
"Is."

She looked at it and her pupils dilated. "Is-was sword destroy construct guard Egg?" ("Is this sword now present the direct successor in space-time sequential change, aside from theoretical anomalies involved in between- universe transitions, of the sword used to kill the Never-Born?" The double tense of the verb, present-past, stipulates and brushes aside the concept that identity is a meaningless abstraction-is this the sword you actually used, in the everyday meaning, and don't kid me, soldier, I'm no child.) "Was-is," I agreed. ("I was there and I guarantee that I followed it all the way here, so it still is.") [Heinlein GR, p.223]

David Wright Sr.

-- 
The map is not the territory. 
A word is not the object that it refers to.
         A. Korzybski, _Science & Sanity_ (1933)

In article <1169341226.657229.9390@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
 "Tim Morgan" <morganuci@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Glory Road was Heinlein's only sword & sorcery novel, though it had
>> a twist. George Scithers, at one time a student of Heinlein's brother
>> Rex Ivar at West Point, published a leading fantasy-oriented fanzine 
>> in the early 1960s. Scithers at some point wondered "what does the 
>> hero of a sword-and-socery novel do once the adventure is over?" In
>> answering this, Heinlein followed the lead of James Branch Cabell,
>> who said that this form of his particular brand of comedy had three 
>> acts: the set-up, the resolution, and then what comes after. In Glory
>> Road, the emotional satisfaction is in the adventure, not the
>> attainment. 

What has been remarkable in _Glory Road_ is a certain ability Oscar Gordon possesses. As his mother put it, "sonny has always had a bump of direction." As Oscar notes, the main reason he kept being promoted to corporal and shoved in a sergeant's spot was patrols led by him were pretty certain not get lost and those who survived the object of the patrol came back to where they began, a comforting thing to city boys who didn't want to be in the jungle in the first place.

Oscar says this aspect is akin to the PSI subjects (aka ESP) studied at Duke; but is it? Most of what was studied at Duke has been eventually debunked even though ESP studies are said to have continued to produce statistically significant results, in spite of improvements in methodology designed to eliminate fraud or flaws.

But an "internal compass," so called, is "The hypothesized mechanism that allows organisms to orient themselves so as to proceed in the proper direction during long-distance movements such as migration. In birds, several internal compass systems have been proposed, but none are well investigated." Sibley, D.A.: _The Sibley Guide to Bird Life & Behavior_ Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2001.

"Not well investigated" as a label isn't very helpful. What have investigations shown about this so-called "bump of direction" that birds, or animals and certain humans are said to possess?

Some claim this is a magnetic orientation; and the discovery of magnetic particles (magnetite) in human brains suggests that humans may be sensitive to magnetic fields. However, while some studies report that humans can point to north when they have limited cues, others find no statistically valid evidence. Humans definitely prefer visual cues, as Oscar does, noting the location and direction of the sun.

How the brain processes magnetic information remains unclear. Some species have particular brain areas that respond to magnetic information, and there may be nerve cells in those areas that detect changes in the magnetic field. In a theoretical paper, Walker, M.M., Dennis, T.E., Kirschvink, J.L.: The magnetic sense and its use in long-distance navigation by animals, Curr Opin Neurobiol 12, 735-744 (2002), proposed that animals may be able to detect magnetic field information due to specialized nerve cells. Similar to how we have specialized nerve cells for senses such as vision and olfaction, Walker et al. hypothesized that there are nerve cells that react to different characteristics of the magnetic field such that the animal can respond behaviorally. Such cells are called magnetoreceptors. We can think of them as an internal compass that is hooked up to the body such that the needle of the compass moves with the changing magnetic field. When the needle is displaced, it can trigger the activation of other cells that help the animal sense where to direct its movements.

Experiments with pigeons and migrating turtle hatchlings using magnetic fields that disrupt the direction they fly or swim seem to support this theory. When the magnetic field is disrupted by putting magnetic coils around their heads or by gluing magnets to the back of their necks, pigeons cannot return to their loft. Navigation is also disrupted when pigeons must journey through anomalies, which are naturally occurring magnetic disruptions. When the magnetic field surrounding the swimming hatchlings is reversed, the hatchlings change their swim direction such that it matches the swim direction of their migratory path. More recently it was shown that when hatchlings are exposed to magnetic fields that mimic different natal beaches they redirect their swim direction to maintain the same migratory path.

This seems, to me, to indicate a little more validity to a claim of existence of this quality than most psi abilities.

Still, I've never experienced it, or known anyone I trust claiming to have it. Whenever I went into the bush I paid a lot of continuous attention to the map, landmarks and terrain, and compass.

Is it possible there's some other purpose here for Oscar's usually reliable "bump of direction"?

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

"David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in news:ag.plusone-
327899.06495725012007@individual.net:

> In article <1169341226.657229.9390@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>  "Tim Morgan" <morganuci@gmail.com> wrote:
> 

(snip)
> 
> How the brain processes magnetic information remains unclear. Some 
> species have particular brain areas that respond to magnetic 
> information, and there may be nerve cells in those areas that detect 
> changes in the magnetic field. In a theoretical paper, Walker, M.M., 
> Dennis, T.E., Kirschvink, J.L.: The magnetic sense and its use in 
> long-distance navigation by animals, Curr Opin Neurobiol 12, 735-744 
> (2002), proposed that animals may be able to detect magnetic field 
> information due to specialized nerve cells. Similar to how we have 
> specialized nerve cells for senses such as vision and olfaction, Walker 
> et al. hypothesized that there are nerve cells that react to different 
> characteristics of the magnetic field such that the animal can respond 
> behaviorally. Such cells are called magnetoreceptors. We can think of 
> them as an internal compass that is hooked up to the body such that the 
> needle of the compass moves with the changing magnetic field. When the 
> needle is displaced, it can trigger the activation of other cells that 
> help the animal sense where to direct its movements. 

-- 
Participate in the Newly Refurbished Heinlein Society Forums
http://heinleinsociety.org/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

David M. Silver wrote:

> In article <1169341226.657229.9390@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>  "Tim Morgan" <morganuci@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>>Glory Road was Heinlein's only sword & sorcery novel, though it had
>>>a twist. George Scithers, at one time a student of Heinlein's brother
>>>Rex Ivar at West Point, published a leading fantasy-oriented fanzine 
>>>in the early 1960s. Scithers at some point wondered "what does the 
>>>hero of a sword-and-socery novel do once the adventure is over?" In
>>>answering this, Heinlein followed the lead of James Branch Cabell, who
>>>said that this form of his particular brand of comedy had three acts:
>>>the set-up, the resolution, and then what comes after. In Glory Road,
>>>the emotional satisfaction is in the adventure, not the attainment. 
> 
> 
> The "Cabellian Comedy" form has always seemed pretty unremarkable to 
> me--it's a natural realism to a thinking reader or writer, except those 
> so attached to the notion of a "happy ending" to their fairy tales they 
> can tolerate no other. 
> 
> What has been remarkable in _Glory Road_ is a certain ability Oscar 
> Gordon possesses. As his mother put it, "sonny has always had a bump of 
> direction." As Oscar notes, the main reason he kept being promoted to 
> corporal and shoved in a sergeant's spot was patrols led by him were 
> pretty certain not get lost and those who survived the object of the 
> patrol came back to where they began, a comforting thing to city boys 
> who didn't want to be in the jungle in the first place. 
> 
> Oscar says this aspect is akin to the PSI subjects (aka ESP) studied at 
> Duke; but is it? Most of what was studied at Duke has been eventually 
> debunked even though ESP studies are said to have continued to produce 
> statistically significant results, in spite of improvements in 
> methodology designed to eliminate fraud or flaws. 
> 
> But an "internal compass," so called, is "The hypothesized mechanism 
> that allows organisms to orient themselves so as to proceed in the 
> proper direction during long-distance movements such as migration. In 
> birds, several internal compass systems have been proposed, but none are 
> well investigated." Sibley, D.A.: _The Sibley Guide to Bird Life & 
> Behavior_ Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2001.
> 
> "Not well investigated" as a label isn't very helpful. What have 
> investigations shown about this so-called "bump of direction" that 
> birds, or animals and certain humans are said to possess?
> 
> Some claim this is a magnetic orientation; and the discovery of magnetic 
> particles (magnetite) in human brains suggests that humans may be 
> sensitive to magnetic fields. However, while some studies report that 
> humans can point to north when they have limited cues, others find no 
> statistically valid evidence. Humans definitely prefer visual cues, as 
> Oscar does, noting the location and direction of the sun. 
> 
> How the brain processes magnetic information remains unclear. Some 
> species have particular brain areas that respond to magnetic 
> information, and there may be nerve cells in those areas that detect 
> changes in the magnetic field. In a theoretical paper, Walker, M.M., 
> Dennis, T.E., Kirschvink, J.L.: The magnetic sense and its use in 
> long-distance navigation by animals, Curr Opin Neurobiol 12, 735-744 
> (2002), proposed that animals may be able to detect magnetic field 
> information due to specialized nerve cells. Similar to how we have 
> specialized nerve cells for senses such as vision and olfaction, Walker 
> et al. hypothesized that there are nerve cells that react to different 
> characteristics of the magnetic field such that the animal can respond 
> behaviorally. Such cells are called magnetoreceptors. We can think of 
> them as an internal compass that is hooked up to the body such that the 
> needle of the compass moves with the changing magnetic field. When the 
> needle is displaced, it can trigger the activation of other cells that 
> help the animal sense where to direct its movements. 
> 
> Experiments with pigeons and migrating turtle hatchlings using magnetic 
> fields that disrupt the direction they fly or swim seem to support this 
> theory. When the magnetic field is disrupted by putting magnetic coils 
> around their heads or by gluing magnets to the back of their necks, 
> pigeons cannot return to their loft. Navigation is also disrupted when 
> pigeons must journey through anomalies, which are naturally occurring 
> magnetic disruptions. When the magnetic field surrounding the swimming 
> hatchlings is reversed, the hatchlings change their swim direction such 
> that it matches the swim direction of their migratory path. More 
> recently it was shown that when hatchlings are exposed to magnetic 
> fields that mimic different natal beaches they redirect their swim 
> direction to maintain the same migratory path.
> 
> This seems, to me, to indicate a little more validity to a claim of 
> existence of this quality than most psi abilities. 
> 
> Still, I've never experienced it, or known anyone I trust claiming to 
> have it. Whenever I went into the bush I paid a lot of continuous 
> attention to the map, landmarks and terrain, and compass. 
> 
> Is it possible there's some other purpose here for Oscar's usually 
> reliable "bump of direction"?
> 

One of his first complaints during the onset of Alzheimer's was an apparently rather sudden loss of this sense of direction.

I generally "know" which way is North but I have, on occasion, been very wrong about it, even when very sure. I'm inclined to ascribe the sense of direction to a sort of inertial navigation system which can become confused if one moves without paying attention.

Norm

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 06:49:57 -0800,  an orbital mind-control laser
caused "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> to write:

>In article <1169341226.657229.9390@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tim Morgan" <morganuci@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Glory Road was Heinlein's only sword & sorcery novel, though it had
>>> a twist. George Scithers, at one time a student of Heinlein's brother
>>> Rex Ivar at West Point, published a leading fantasy-oriented fanzine 
>>> in the early 1960s. Scithers at some point wondered "what does the 
>>> hero of a sword-and-socery novel do once the adventure is over?" In
>>> answering this, Heinlein followed the lead of James Branch Cabell, who
>>> said that this form of his particular brand of comedy had three acts:
>>> the set-up, the resolution, and then what comes after. In Glory Road,
>>> the emotional satisfaction is in the adventure, not the attainment. 
>
>The "Cabellian Comedy" form has always seemed pretty unremarkable to 
>me--it's a natural realism to a thinking reader or writer, except those 
>so attached to the notion of a "happy ending" to their fairy tales they 
>can tolerate no other. 
>
>What has been remarkable in _Glory Road_ is a certain ability Oscar 
>Gordon possesses. As his mother put it, "sonny has always had a bump of 
>direction." As Oscar notes, the main reason he kept being promoted to 
>corporal and shoved in a sergeant's spot was patrols led by him were 
>pretty certain not get lost and those who survived the object of the 
>patrol came back to where they began, a comforting thing to city boys 
>who didn't want to be in the jungle in the first place. 
>
>Oscar says this aspect is akin to the PSI subjects (aka ESP) studied at 
>Duke; but is it? Most of what was studied at Duke has been eventually 
>debunked even though ESP studies are said to have continued to produce 
>statistically significant results, in spite of improvements in 
>methodology designed to eliminate fraud or flaws. 
>
>But an "internal compass," so called, is "The hypothesized mechanism 
>that allows organisms to orient themselves so as to proceed in the 
>proper direction during long-distance movements such as migration. In 
>birds, several internal compass systems have been proposed, but none are 
>well investigated." Sibley, D.A.: _The Sibley Guide to Bird Life & 
>Behavior_ Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2001.

FWIW, I've got something of that ability. I usually know which way is north, have no trouble reading (or drawing) maps and can frequently find my way back to a place that I've been to *once* several years ago.

My "bump of direction" is not nearly as well-developed as Oscar's, but it takes *a lot* to get me lost, and even then I can usually find my way back to my starting point. The one thing that can foul me up is if I fly somewhere and land after dark. Then I'm totally befuddled about which way is north, at least until the next day when the sunrise tells me where east is.

	-Chris Zakes
		Texas

Rule #5. There will always be some people who can do some things 
that you just *can't*. Don't worry about it, work on your basics 
and have some double-stuff Oreos.

Chris mentions:

> FWIW, I've got something of that ability. I usually know which way is
> north, have no trouble reading (or drawing) maps and can frequently
> find my way back to a place that I've been to *once* several years
> ago. 
>
> My "bump of direction" is not nearly as well-developed as Oscar's, but
> it takes *a lot* to get me lost, and even then I can usually find my
> way back to my starting point. The one thing that can foul me up is if
> I fly somewhere and land after dark. Then I'm totally befuddled about
> which way is north, at least until the next day when the sunrise tells
> me where east is. 

E!

 
David M. Silver wrote:
  < snip >

> Is it possible there's some other purpose here for Oscar's usually 
> reliable "bump of direction"?
> 

In despite of that omission; I suggest the *main* reason Oscar's talent was important in the Quest for the Egg of the Phoenix was that he used it throughout. He used his talent in negotiating the forest of the rats and hogs and later used it to "aim" Star's arrow of flight to their encounter with the dragons. Most notably, of course, it enabled Oscar to distinguish and follow the True Path to the Egg through the Mile-High Tower of the Never-Born, the Eater of Souls.

Other incidents of its use presently evade my wetware.

Rufe

 In article <j98uh.18820$X72.6331@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
 "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

> David M. Silver wrote:
>   < snip >
> 
> > Is it possible there's some other purpose here for Oscar's usually 
> > reliable "bump of direction"?
> > 
> 	I don't believe I understand your question concerning "some other 
> purpose." 	In despite of that omission; I suggest the *main* reason
> Oscar's talent was important in the Quest for the Egg of the Phoenix
> was that he used it throughout. He used his talent in negotiating the 
> forest of the rats and hogs and later used it to "aim" Star's arrow 
> of flight to their encounter with the dragons. Most notably, of 
> course, it enabled Oscar to distinguish and follow the True Path to 
> the Egg through the Mile-High Tower of the Never-Born, the Eater of 
> Souls.
> 	 Other incidents of its use presently evade my wetware.
> 
> Rufe

It's like this, Rufo: I was just thinking on how to be this so-called Heinlein "competent man" and I started listing things about them in my mind.

"Slipstick" Libby has this intuitive sense of the relationship between numbers in mathematics and mathematic concepts.

The Great Lorenzo reads lips.

Max Jones has an eidetic memory.

Four-year-old Buster Stone cheats at chess by reading minds.

Huge Farnham plays a decent hand of bridge.

Podkayne Fries has huge lungs and an overly sympathetic heart.

Clark Fries has no qualms, no morals, and no conscience.

Potiphar Bream senses fluctuations and relationships in function between seemingly unrelated data which enables him to predict the future.

Johann Sebastian Bach Smith has a three-ring circus going on in his mind.

Kip Russell speaks Latin and mixes a mean ice-cream sundae.

Thorby Baslim knows how to pick pockets.

Four-year-old Woody Smith cheats at chess by moving your pieces if you look away at an opportune time.

Fourteen-year-old Maureen Johnson is precocious (in at least two ways).

Fourteen-year-old Marjorie Baldwin was physically and mentally enhanced.

Two-thousand plus year old Lazarus Long lies a lot (waddya expect of a grown-up four-year-old cheater at chess).

Zebidiah John Carter is the prototypical "clean-limbed fighting man" and plays pretty good poker.

And, good ol' Evelyn Cyril Gordon not only has that "bump of direction," he's also the prototypical "clean-limbed fighting man," plays decent poker, and he lacks aichmophobia.

Now if you've got a bump of direction that's going inevitably to put you right between the two red eyes into the sights of your enemy, every time, is it a plus, or minus, or metaphor, here?

 
-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

 
David M. Silver wrote:
> In article <j98uh.18820$X72.6331@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>  "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>David M. Silver wrote:
>>  < snip >
>>
>>>Is it possible there's some other purpose here for Oscar's usually 
>>>reliable "bump of direction"?
>>>
>>
>>	I don't believe I understand your question concerning "some other 
>>purpose." 	In despite of that omission; I suggest the *main* reason
>>Oscar's talent was important in the Quest for the Egg of the Phoenix
>>was that he used it throughout. He used his talent in negotiating the 
>>forest of the rats and hogs and later used it to "aim" Star's arrow 
>>of flight to their encounter with the dragons. Most notably, of 
>>course, it enabled Oscar to distinguish and follow the True Path to 
>>the Egg through the Mile-High Tower of the Never-Born, the Eater of 
>>Souls.
>>	 Other incidents of its use presently evade my wetware.
>>
>>Rufe
> 
> 
> Well, there's always somebody who reads the last sentence, isn't there?
> 	*I* thought I was responding to your "bait," Mr. Interlocutor. 
> 
> It's like this, Rufo: I was just thinking on how to be this so-called 
> Heinlein "competent man" and I started listing things about them in my 
> mind. 	Okay, I'll try to play your game, Dave. 
> 
> "Slipstick" Libby has this intuitive sense of the relationship between 
> numbers in mathematics and mathematic concepts. 
	Which had no relation to his having received less-than-typical 
formal schooling.
> 
> The Great Lorenzo reads lips.

 > 
> Max Jones has an eidetic memory. 
	Which he employed to further his learning and competency throughout 
the course of the novel and beyond.
> 
> Four-year-old Buster Stone cheats at chess by reading minds. 
	More light-handed praise? He later became "chief surgeon at Ceres 
General" if his Grandmother is to be a trusted source of information.
> 
> Huge Farnham plays a decent hand of bridge.
	Didn't he also go back to school (under the G.I. Bill?); 
subsequently create a successful contracting company and acquire 
enough "appreciation" to compile an arguably comprehensive 
end-of-the-world library for his safe harbor?
> 
> Podkayne Fries has huge lungs and an overly sympathetic heart.
	I believe her when she says that not all of that impressive bust 
measurement is hypertrophied lung development. She also claimed 
"female secondary sexual characteristics." This last is an 
often-mentioned (but NOT invariable) characteristic of RAH's women, 
innit?
> 
> Clark Fries has no qualms, no morals, and no conscience.
	Rather like Stinky Burke but provided with a character development 
arc necessary to the plot of the novel?
> 
> Potiphar Bream senses fluctuations and relationships in function between 
> seemingly unrelated data which enables him to predict the future. 
	Potty *Breen* takes copious NOTES first and LATER ascribes 
relationships as you've stated. He's one of RAH's Geeks who wins a 
Beauty.
> 
> Johann Sebastian Bach Smith has a three-ring circus going on in his mind.
> 	Yeah, well, there is that. An exception that proves the Rule? 
> 
> Kip Russell speaks Latin and mixes a mean ice-cream sundae. 

Shucks, right there is a "telling detail" that destroys any possible suspension of dis-belief while reading this otherwise charming novel: It's been my experience that in real-life, very few teen-aged males actually follow their parents' advice to the extent demonstrated by Kip.

 
> 
> Thorby Baslim knows how to pick pockets. 
	Which skill he learned from a low acquaintance, no? Baslim also 
provided Thorby with "Renshaw-type" training in several languages 
and other disciplines.
> 
> Four-year-old Woody Smith cheats at chess by moving your pieces if you 
> look away at an opportune time. 
	His Heinleinian competence must have set in at a later date. That 
the little So & So is "lovable" to anyone is one of the least 
believable elements of TEFL.
> 
> Fourteen-year-old Maureen Johnson is precocious (in at least two ways). 
> 	"Girls mature faster -- especially in one's memories." 
> 
> Fourteen-year-old Marjorie Baldwin was physically and mentally enhanced. 
	Wasn't her genetic alteration/enhancement completed before your 
indicated age? Her mother was a test-tube and her father was a knife.
> 
> Two-thousand plus year old Lazarus Long lies a lot (waddya expect of a 
> grown-up four-year-old cheater at chess). 
	To re-phrase from above: That Old Buddy-Boy is "lovable" to anyone 
is one of the least believable elements of TEFL.
> 
> Zebidiah John Carter is the prototypical "clean-limbed fighting man" and 
> plays pretty good poker.  	In his telling, he wasn't "playing" but
> "tutoring/teaching." 
> 
> And, good ol' Evelyn Cyril Gordon not only has that "bump of direction," 
> he's also the prototypical "clean-limbed fighting man," plays decent 
> poker, and he lacks aichmophobia. 
	"Ooo, get that pointy, sharp thing away from me!" would be a 
serious handicap for the hero of a sword & sorcery story, no? 
Similarly, "clean-limbed fighting man" is arguably another 
necessary, basic specification.
> 
> Now if you've got a bump of direction that's going inevitably to put you 
> right between the two red eyes into the sights of your enemy, every 
> time, is it a plus, or minus, or metaphor, here? 

Oscar's bump takes him to where he, the Hero, needs to be to deal with his task. It's one of the handy accessories included in his hero-ing bag o' tricks.

Coulda been "bred" into him by Her Wizzy's instructions - like the physical training obtained from playing football and the fencing instructions.

TBIYC,

Rufe

 
In article <1170102912.508838.16730@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
 "Puppet_Sock" <puppet_sock@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 25, 5:29 pm, "David M. Silver" <ag.plus...@verizon.net> wrote:
> [snip]
> > Zebidiah John Carter is the prototypical "clean-limbed fighting man" and
> > plays pretty good poker. 
> 
> Also a top rated pilot, a fair-dinkum computer tech,  good with
> a sword or a gun, can dance fairly well, and he has his
> "guardian angel." Just about any RAH hero I'd be proud
> and pleased to call a friend. But if I'm ever in a scrape I
> hope there's somebody like Zeb around to give me hand.
> Socks

Zeb appears indistinguishable from your idle favored son (unless you know he had to win that first million to get the more-than-matching inheritance), taking his ease in a sinecure his own university donation created, grazing among the limited pool of academia squares, unaffected in an unchallenged, undistinguished and unfocused on any goal status other than present gratification. He's as much a dilettante as anything else and, certainly, as unrealized as his social hostess, Sharpie, who, I'd suspect, keeps him on her guest list mainly as a pleasing potential stud.

Compare him to Oscar. Oscar knows what he is and very early on realizes what he is not. Oscar knows his destiny; he just doesn't know how rocky that road is going to be.

Compare him to his cousin Ed, with whom he is confused by Deety and Jake. Ed was focused, accomplished, but just didn't know they were out to get him and is taken from the stage without our ever knowing just how good he danced or was.

What made Zeb tick? What, besides some modest intelligence and skills many young men (perhaps most of the midshipmen and junior officers Heinlein grew up among) possess?

 
-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

 
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 01:55:17 -0800, "David M. Silver"
<ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

> He's as much a dilettante as anything 
>else and, certainly, as unrealized as his social hostess, Sharpie, who, 
>I'd suspect, keeps him on her guest list mainly as a pleasing potential 
>stud. 

Keeping in mind that she's described as a top-notch party arranger*, one might speculate that Zeb is on her "A-list" for obvious reasons: friendship (and a potential bouncer, if things get _too_ out of hand), conversationalist, dancer, and potnetial practical joker. And possibly someone to hide behind, if a guest gets _too_ ardent - I'm pretty sure that Zeb would have played right along if Hilda had played the "I'm taken, sir" card.

*Holy cats, I'm slow. It just now occurred to me that RAH was, by accident or (more likely) intent, foreshadowing Hilda's eventual Captaincy. Above all, a commander must be able to manage skill sets and personalities among his subordinates - as well as the various strangers his command interacts with - a skill/talent which Hilda Corners has been quietly honing for years by way of party planning. D'oh!

Regards,

 
--
Rusty the bookman
WWFSMD?
http://www.venganza.org/ 

http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus/ 

"The difference between food and beer is that beer 
has some food value, while food has no beer value"
- Linda the waitress

 
In article <a6aur2pv00vct1e6vc6f4t22s740jlqo6g@4ax.com>,
 Bookman <thebookman@kc.rr.comNULL> wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 01:55:17 -0800, "David M. Silver"
> <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> > He's as much a dilettante as anything 
> >else and, certainly, as unrealized as his social hostess, Sharpie, who, 
> >I'd suspect, keeps him on her guest list mainly as a pleasing potential 
> >stud. 
> 
> David, I must disagree with this supposition.  As I remember the
> story, Sharpie specifically arranged an "opportunity" for Zeb, and he
> made a polite pass - which she firmly ignored.  Her stated reasoning
> for doing this was to the effect that good male bedmates are easy to
> come by, while good male _friends_ are not.  Ergo, she didn't want Zeb
> as a lover, she wanted to keep being friends with him.  
> 

 
> Keeping in mind that she's described as a top-notch party arranger*,
> one might speculate that Zeb is on her "A-list" for obvious reasons: 
> friendship (and a potential bouncer, if things get _too_ out of hand),
> conversationalist, dancer, and potnetial practical joker.  And 
> possibly someone to hide behind, if a guest gets _too_ ardent - I'm 
> pretty sure that Zeb would have played right along if Hilda had played
> the "I'm taken, sir" card.  
> 
> *Holy cats, I'm slow.  It just now occurred to me that RAH was, by
> accident or (more likely) intent, foreshadowing Hilda's eventual
> Captaincy.  Above all, a commander must be able to manage skill sets
> and personalities among his subordinates - as well as the various
> strangers his command interacts with - a skill/talent which Hilda
> Corners has been quietly honing for years by way of party planning.
> D'oh! 

Meanwhile, back to the "heroing packages" of Oscar, et al.

To you as well as others: what makes Zebbie tick?

 
> 
> Regards, 

 
-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:53:03 -0800, "David M. Silver"
<ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

>In article <a6aur2pv00vct1e6vc6f4t22s740jlqo6g@4ax.com>,
> Bookman <thebookman@kc.rr.comNULL> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 01:55:17 -0800, "David M. Silver"
>> <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> > He's as much a dilettante as anything 
>> >else and, certainly, as unrealized as his social hostess, Sharpie, who, 
>> >I'd suspect, keeps him on her guest list mainly as a pleasing potential 
>> >stud. 
>> 
>> David, I must disagree with this supposition.  As I remember the
>> story, Sharpie specifically arranged an "opportunity" for Zeb, and he
>> made a polite pass - which she firmly ignored.  Her stated reasoning
>> for doing this was to the effect that good male bedmates are easy to
>> come by, while good male _friends_ are not.  Ergo, she didn't want Zeb
>> as a lover, she wanted to keep being friends with him.  
>> 
>
>Rather, ergo, "her stated reasoning ... was to the effect of" yadda, 
>yadda, etc. Perhaps politeness wasn't aligned with her wishes that evening
>and she decided to remove her hook from his gills and put him back in the
>pool until further passion kindled his attitude into a more pleasing
>episode. ("One day I'll make him beg.") It's always nice to  have a reserve
>in stock. 

 
>
>> Keeping in mind that she's described as a top-notch party arranger*,
>> one might speculate that Zeb is on her "A-list" for obvious reasons: 
>> friendship (and a potential bouncer, if things get _too_ out of hand),
>> conversationalist, dancer, and potnetial practical joker.  And possibly
>> someone to hide behind, if a guest gets _too_ ardent - I'm pretty sure
>> that Zeb would have played right along if Hilda had played the "I'm
>> taken, sir" card.  
>> 
>> *Holy cats, I'm slow.  It just now occurred to me that RAH was, by
>> accident or (more likely) intent, foreshadowing Hilda's eventual
>> Captaincy.  Above all, a commander must be able to manage skill sets
>> and personalities among his subordinates - as well as the various
>> strangers his command interacts with - a skill/talent which Hilda
>> Corners has been quietly honing for years by way of party planning.
>> D'oh! 
>
>Nice perception. Hilda is always going to be a match for Lazarus Long 
>because, among other things, this skill but also because she lies almost 
>as much as he does. 

 
>("I just want to keep being friends with you, 
>Zebbie.") One day when they're all bored, and Jake is off romancing 
>someone he thinks is "Lib," Hilda will sink her fangs in Zeb--only to 
>find out it's Hero Gordon, on leave from Her Wizzy. (Lazarus, meanwhile, 
>will think "Deety" is seducing him, and Andy will get his most desired 
>wish.) [I just know there's a reason to make Deety and Lib and Zeb and 
>Oscar physical matches. How's that for polymorphic perversity?] 

 
>
>Meanwhile, back to the "heroing packages" of Oscar, et al.
>
>To you as well as others: what makes Zebbie tick? 

In short, Zeb Carter isn't a "hero" - he's a "sidekick". Sidekicks can occasionally take the lead (Spock, f'rex, or Tonto, IIRC), but they cannot "keep the story going". Without an immediate crisis, left to his own devices, he looks for a comfortable place to settle down, and things to keep himself amused - which is exactly where we find him at the opening, and right where they end up at the "false ending*", i.e. Snug Harbor II. (*as in false dawn", not implying anything fake here. )

Contrast Oscor Gordon: Gordon begins his Quest in exactly the same role, i.e. "sidekick" to Star, but eventually devolps a sense of purpose, and shifts roles to "hero"- which role he retains until the end. Left without another Quest (since, in this context, completing quests is his hero's purpose), he becomes more and more emotionally unstable. He finds his way out, though, and departs upon a quest or two: A quest to connect with his former life, and then a quest to find the next quest. At the end of GR, Oscar Gordon is without question, a Hero. (Please note that "hero" is a multi-valued term, and I am using it here in the iliterary sense impled by the thread, not in the "he's a hero! He ran into a burning building and saved the lives of those children!" or "He's a sandwich!" (VMS came closest - but he was a soup!) )

Hilda, OTOH...

There, I've let my ignorance run wild for considerable wordage, giving all and sundry plenty of Tenessee windage to tell me how wrong I am.

Happy now, David? ;-)

Regards,

 
--
Rusty the bookman
WWFSMD?
http://www.venganza.org/ 

http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus/ 

"The difference between food and beer is that beer 
has some food value, while food has no beer value"
- Linda the waitress

 
David asked:
> >To you as well as others: what makes Zebbie tick?

 
> Zebbie is The Man Without a Purpose at the opening of TNotB.  Slick,
> talented, physically gifted, and a hard worker when necesary, he's had 
> a measure of success at pretty much everything he's turned his hand
> to, but he lacks the drive to dominate any field in particular.
> Marriage gives him a low-level purpose, and running for their lives
> gives him a higher-level purpose, but once the heat wears off, it's
> back to dabbling - especially when leading his command out of the
> immediate threat and into the unknown.  The latter has its risks, but
> the bigger danger is that Zeb has no idea, IMO, of what the ultimate
> goal should be - or even the intermediate goal.  Thus his crew cannot
> really follow, since he has no real sense of direction.  Zeb can see
> the former, but is not really self-aware enough to be consious of the
> latter.  Zeb is well-suited for short-term leadership, with
> pre-defined objectives, but lacks the drive & imagination for
> independent command.  I wouldn't hesitate (assuming the requisite army
> specialist training) to send him out on patrol - even a longish one -
> as a Lieutenant, with a platoon, provided he had a solid lead NCO to
> nudge him occasionally & keep him on-task.  Field-grade commander?
> Uh-uh.  
>
> In short, Zeb Carter isn't a "hero" - he's a "sidekick".  Sidekicks
> can occasionally take the lead (Spock, f'rex, or Tonto, IIRC), but
> they cannot "keep the story going".  Without an immediate crisis, left
> to his own devices, he looks for a comfortable place to settle down,
> and things to keep himself amused - which is exactly where we find him 
> at the opening, and right where they end up at the "false ending*",
> i.e. Snug Harbor II.  (*as in false dawn", not implying anything fake
> here. ) 

Superb analysis. Had I the skills, I woulda said that.

[ snippage ]

cheers

oz, who identifies with Zeb more than with any other H character

In article <1170289707.993374.314900@a34g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
 "MajorOz" <MajorOz@centurytel.net> wrote:

> BRAVO !
> Superb analysis.  Had I the skills, I woulda said that.

 
-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

 
On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 01:07:21 -0800, "David M. Silver"
<ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

>In article <1170289707.993374.314900@a34g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> "MajorOz" <MajorOz@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
>> BRAVO !
>> Superb analysis.  Had I the skills, I woulda said that.
>
>He's right about it being a nice analysis. Thanks, Rusty.

Regards,

 
--
Rusty the bookman
WWFSMD?
http://www.venganza.org/ 

http://zapatopi.net/treeoctopus/ 

"The difference between food and beer is that beer 
has some food value, while food has no beer value"
- Linda the waitress

RG meeting

When: Tonight, Thursday, February 22, at 9 PM, ET.
Where: The usual AIM chatroom
Topic: Glory Road

When last heard from, the questions between Mutt and Jeff were these, all involving "Heroing Packages":

Will Mutt show up to answer his gadfly tonight?

 
In article <ag.plusone-D76DFB.10472027012007@individual.net>,
 "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

> In article <8Fbuh.15206$w91.13318@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>  "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> > David M. Silver wrote:
> > > In article <j98uh.18820$X72.6331@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> > >  "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > >>David M. Silver wrote:
> > >>  < snip >
> > >>
> > >>>Is it possible there's some other purpose here for Oscar's usually 
> > >>>reliable "bump of direction"?
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>	I don't believe I understand your question concerning "some other 
> > >>purpose." 	In despite of that omission; I suggest the *main* reason
> > >>Oscar's talent was important in the Quest for the Egg of the Phoenix was 
> > >>that he used it throughout. He used his talent in negotiating the 
> > >>forest of the rats and hogs and later used it to "aim" Star's arrow 
> > >>of flight to their encounter with the dragons. Most notably, of 
> > >>course, it enabled Oscar to distinguish and follow the True Path to 
> > >>the Egg through the Mile-High Tower of the Never-Born, the Eater of 
> > >>Souls.
> > >>	 Other incidents of its use presently evade my wetware.
> > >>
> > >>Rufe
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Well, there's always somebody who reads the last sentence, isn't there?
> > > 	*I* thought I was responding to your "bait," Mr. Interlocutor. 
> > > 
> > > It's like this, Rufo: I was just thinking on how to be this so-called 
> > > Heinlein "competent man" and I started listing things about them in my 
> > > mind. 	Okay, I'll try to play your game, Dave. 
> > > 
> > > "Slipstick" Libby has this intuitive sense of the relationship between 
> > > numbers in mathematics and mathematic concepts. 
> > 	Which had no relation to his having received less-than-typical  formal
> > schooling. 
> 
> Attained in formal schooling or not, his trait for comprehending 
> mathematical relationships enables his heroics in saving several of his 
> comrades in the CCCs in "Misfit" and that act attracts the attention of 
> the officers in charge of the program to him (a fact that just as easily 
> could have caused him to stand out higher than the others in his squad,  and,
> therefore, caused someone to pound him back down--in fact, in the original
> story, before the cuts made by Campbell, there was a beating he received from
> another corpsman who envied him); he wins a commission in the Space Navy,
> somehow discovers he's a member of the Howard families,  and becomes
> thereafter again a hero in _Methuselah's Children_ when he invents the Libby
> Drive that allows his group of outlaws to escape persecutions. Yet, until her
> "Death and Resurrection" [(Part Three) of _The Number of the Beast_] and
> reappearance as Elizabeth Long when Zeb, Deety, Jake and Hilda find
> themselves "fallen into another story," like Oscar, below. Elizabeth (or
> "Lib") is as much a look-alike of Deety as Zeb is a look-alike of Oscar. Both
> share the mathematical ability. Yet biography, environment, and personality
> appear different. Deety seemed self-assured in her own identity from the
> beginning of her "story" and Lib, despite telling us "I've been ever so much
> happier as Elizabeth Long than I was as Andy Libby," never really seems to be
> satisfied in his/her triplet (XXY) persona--the difference between a mixed-up
> male and a self-assured female ("shy, solitary, and regarded as queer"), 
> unless we accept at face value the assurances she makes in Dora's cabin to
> the four travelers in _Number_. (She seems happy, but Lazarus still avoids
> her in the manner she most desires, siring a child with her,  avoiding her
> wishes with the same phrase Her Wisdom once uses, "when the Greeks tell time
> by the Kalends.") 
> 
> Is there some difference in the "heroing package" here, between Lib and 
> Andy? or between Elizabeth and Deety? What's its effect? 
> 
> > > 
> > > The Great Lorenzo reads lips.
> > 	Damning him with faint praise, Counselor? He was a "trained" stage 
> > actor who was equally comfortable in other venues. IIRC, he was 
> > expert in the application of make-up, adept as a "quick-change 
> > artist;" a mime (cf. the tramp character drinking from the cat's 
> > dish lazzo); a self-professed acrobat (cf. His words to the effect 
> > that "by the age of 15 I could recite pages of Shakespeare and Shaw 
> > while balancing on my head on a slack wire.") He also demonstrates 
> > throughout the observation of detail used by the most proficient  actors in
> > all ages. 
> 
> Larry Smith is another look-alike, or close enough, to Joseph Bonforte 
> that the impersonation in _Double Star_ is possible. The "faint praise" 
> that makes him first stand out actually is coupled with his false pride 
> and causes him to stand out higher than others in his "squad." If he 
> hadn't eavesdropped by lipreading the conversation between Jacques and 
> Dak he'd never have accepted the job and never placed himself in 
> jeopardy. He vows he'll make Jacques laugh and cry with his acting 
> ability within moments. He never gets the chance. An exigency and 
> Jacques' heroing package precludes that. Smith develops in character to 
> achieve a passable simulacrum of Bonfonte but I'd submit that 
> development stems more from a desire to achieve approval (a father's 
> approval) from those he finds himself associating with (Dak, Penny, the 
> others on Bonforte's team, the Emperor) than anything else. He never 
> really had, or never really thought he had, achieved his father's  approval. 
> 
> What's Larry Smith's "heroing package" really amount to here? 
> 
> > > 
> > > Max Jones has an eidetic memory. 
> > 	Which he employed to further his learning and competency throughout  the
> > course of the novel and beyond. 
> 
> No. It's simply a parlor trick that gets him into trouble. It enables 
> him to show the false front necessary to cheat his way into space. It 
> incidentally enables him to save the ship's passengers and crew, later; 
> but it isn't anything but a tool. What he employs to further himself is 
> emulation of the character he finds in those he encounters: Dr. 
> Hendricks, Kelley, the first officer, and even Sam Roberts or Richards, 
> whatever his name was, Late of the Imperial Marines. 
> 
> What makes Max Jones stand out, not as a savant, but as a hero? 
> 
> > > 
> > > Four-year-old Buster Stone cheats at chess by reading minds. 
> > 	More light-handed praise? He later became "chief surgeon at Ceres 
> > General" if his Grandmother is to be a trusted source of information.
> 
> How did reading minds and cheating make him suited to become chief 
> surgeon? I'd think, going with Heinlein's comments in another work about 
> another skilled surgeon, that sadism, the enjoying of cutting into 
> another human's flesh and drawing blood, like a swordsman such as Oscar,  was
> worth more in getting through medical school. 
> 
> What makes Buster, potentially, a hero other than his ability to cheat 
> at chess?
> 
> > > 
> > > Hug[h] Farnham plays a decent hand of bridge.
> > 	Didn't he also go back to school (under the G.I. Bill?); 
> > subsequently create a successful contracting company and acquire 
> > enough "appreciation" to compile an arguably comprehensive 
> > end-of-the-world library for his safe harbor? 
> 
> Hugh's a failure as an equalitarian, a husband, a father (twice, for he 
> couldn't save his daughter and grandchild), a survivalist in the future,  and
> a rebel. He only escapes because of a sense of noblesse oblige on the part of
> Ponse, and repays Ponse's nobility and graciousness by sending the bomb back
> into his lap. What's heroic about that? If there is something that qualifies,
> what's the package Hugh displays? 
> 
> > > 
> > > Podkayne Fries has huge lungs and an overly sympathetic heart.
> > 	I believe her when she says that not all of that impressive bust 
> > measurement is hypertrophied lung development. She also claimed 
> > "female secondary sexual characteristics." This last is an 
> > often-mentioned (but NOT invariable) characteristic of RAH's women,  innit?
> 
> Yah, but where's the heroism? Is it enough to believe in fairies? Is it 
> worthwhile to hazard--to throw away--your life to save baby fairies? 
> Let's just clap our hands? Talk about someone without a "bump of 
> direction," Poddy's lost her compass, I believe, in many ways throughout 
> the novel. Can you count the ways? For starters, she abandons her 
> dreams; then, she decides perhaps she'd like to emulate Goldie; and 
> after that ... ? She's throwing away the package. Why?
> 
> > > 
> > > Clark Fries has no qualms, no morals, and no conscience.
> > 	Rather like Stinky Burke but provided with a character development  arc
> > necessary to the plot of the novel? 
> 
> How is Clark showing heroism in doing what he is doing, at the end, not 
> during the novel? Whatever that is, how does it fit into a "heroing 
> package"? 
> 
> > > 
> > > Potiphar Bream senses fluctuations and relationships in function between 
> > > seemingly unrelated data which enables him to predict the future. 
> > 	Potty *Breen* takes copious NOTES first and LATER ascribes 
> > relationships as you've stated. He's one of RAH's Geeks who wins a 
> > Beauty.
> 
> And the BIG BANG. What's heroic about his preparation for and reaction 
> to that? What's in his package? 
> 
> > > 
> > > Johann Sebastian Bach Smith has a three-ring circus going on in his mind.
> > > 	Yeah, well, there is that. An exception that proves the Rule? 
> 
> Too glib, Rufo. Think, please. Why is the name of the child being born 
> important? 
> 
> > > 
> > > Kip Russell speaks Latin and mixes a mean ice-cream sundae. 
> > 	His competence in the alchemy of ice-cream sundaes aside, Kip also 
> > learns/speaks Spanish better/more fluently than required by his 
> > nursery, er. . . "high" school and further augments his curriculum 
> > through the suggestions of his Father.
> > 	Shucks, right there is a "telling detail" that destroys any 
> > possible suspension of dis-belief while reading this otherwise 
> > charming novel: It's been my experience that in real-life, very few 
> > teen-aged males actually follow their parents' advice to the extent 
> > demonstrated by Kip. 
> 
> Nice diversion, but, back to the basic question: what is heroic about 
> Kip? So we got a kid that listens to his old man for a change--now 
> instead of later, what did listening lead to? 
> 
> > > 
> > > Thorby Baslim knows how to pick pockets. 
> > 	Which skill he learned from a low acquaintance, no? Baslim also 
> > provided Thorby with "Renshaw-type" training in several languages  and
> > other disciplines. 
> 
> Other disciplines such as what?
> 
> How did they fit into a package of heroics?
> 
> > > 
> > > Four-year-old Woody Smith cheats at chess by moving your pieces if you 
> > > look away at an opportune time. 
> > 	His Heinleinian competence must have set in at a later date. That 
> > the little So & So is "lovable" to anyone is one of the least  believable
> > elements of TEFL. 
> 
> How does moving a chess piece differ from jamming a wad of gum into a 
> door latch? This, I'll remind you, is the four-year-old who grows into a 
> man who just knows that the better part of valor is "fading into the 
> woodwork" and maybe heading down Mexico way (he thinks on doing that 
> twice, doesn't he?). Instead he saves his family, and goes after Dinkie 
> (was that the name of the maladroit private?), doesn't he? 
> 
> What's the component of the heroing package, here? 
> 
> > > 
> > > Fourteen-year-old Maureen Johnson is precocious (in at least two ways). 
> > > 	"Girls mature faster -- especially in one's memories." 
> 
> Come, come, let's talk about rewriting the commandments, at least. 
> What's with Maureeen's heroing package? 
> 
> > > 
> > > Fourteen-year-old Marjorie Baldwin was physically and mentally enhanced. 
> > 	Wasn't her genetic alteration/enhancement completed before your  indicated
> > age? Her mother was a test-tube and her father was a knife. 
> 
> Do you think she ever realizes she's being used by Baldwin? If so, why 
> does she submit to it? What's in her heroing package? What relationship 
> does it have to her notable lack of self-esteem? Why is/isn't it a flaw 
> rather than a sterling quality? 
> 
> > > 
> > > Two-thousand plus year old Lazarus Long lies a lot (waddya expect of a 
> > > grown-up four-year-old cheater at chess). 
> > 	To re-phrase from above: That Old Buddy-Boy is "lovable" to anyone  is one
> > of the least believable elements of TEFL. 
> 
> I dunno. Ted Bronson has his good days. He didn't kill the brat several 
> times. Now, if a four-year-old had spit in _my_ derby ... . (Well, I 
> can't always be responsible.) Hint, hint. What's the one notable thing 
> in his heroing package? 
> 
> > > 
> > > Zebidiah John Carter is the prototypical "clean-limbed fighting man" and 
> > > plays pretty good poker.  	In his telling, he wasn't "playing" but
> > > "tutoring/teaching." 
> > > 
> > > And, good ol' Evelyn Cyril Gordon not only has that "bump of direction," 
> > > he's also the prototypical "clean-limbed fighting man," plays decent 
> > > poker, and he lacks aichmophobia. 
> > 	"Ooo, get that pointy, sharp thing away from me!" would be a 
> > serious handicap for the hero of a sword & sorcery story, no? 
> > Similarly, "clean-limbed fighting man" is arguably another  necessary,
> > basic specification. 
> 
> What are these two guys clones? Why are Lib and Deety clones? What's 
> going on here?
> 
> > > 
> > > Now if you've got a bump of direction that's going inevitably to put you 
> > > right between the two red eyes into the sights of your enemy, every 
> > > time, is it a plus, or minus, or metaphor, here? 
> > 	"Metaphor? We don' need no stinkin' metaphors!"
> > 	Oscar's bump takes him to where he, the Hero, needs to be to deal 
> > with his task. It's one of the handy accessories included in his 
> > hero-ing bag o' tricks.
> > 	Coulda been "bred" into him by Her Wizzy's instructions - like the 
> > physical training obtained from playing football and the fencing 
> > instructions. 
> > 
> 
> I don't doubt it for a minute, Rufe. I suspect Evelyn Cyril's father had 
> the same bump that got him and his squad back on track whenever they got 
> off track on that happy road between Hagaru-ri and Hungnam. Remind me to 
> lend you a copy of _Hold Back the Night_ sometime.
> 
> Her Wizzy, btw, is a GS-5 clerk out on sick leave most of the time, who 
> should have kept knitting when Hero Gordon's request passed over her 
> desk. He might have been happier if his "heroing package" hadn't been 
> activated, in some universes. Being dropped into the "middle of a story" 
> isn't a very kind fate. Look at what it gets you into. 
> 
> > TBIYC,
> > Rufe
> 
> But, what do you think? Rufe? Anyone?

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

 
In article <ag.plusone-E8D568.04005822022007@individual.net>,
 "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

> > > > Zebidiah John Carter is the prototypical "clean-limbed fighting man" 
> > > > and  plays pretty good poker.  	In his telling, he wasn't "playing"
> > > > but "tutoring/teaching." 
> > > > 
> > > > And, good ol' Evelyn Cyril Gordon not only has that "bump of 
> > > > direction," he's also the prototypical "clean-limbed fighting man,"
> > > > plays decent  poker, and he lacks aichmophobia. 
> > > 	"Ooo, get that pointy, sharp thing away from me!" would be a 
> > > serious handicap for the hero of a sword & sorcery story, no? 
> > > Similarly, "clean-limbed fighting man" is arguably another  necessary,
> > > basic specification. 
> > 
> > What are these two guys clones? Why are Lib and Deety clones? What's 
> > going on here?
> > 
> > > > 
> > > > Now if you've got a bump of direction that's going inevitably to put 
> > > > you right between the two red eyes into the sights of your enemy,
> > > > every  time, is it a plus, or minus, or metaphor, here? 
> > > 	"Metaphor? We don' need no stinkin' metaphors!"
> > > 	Oscar's bump takes him to where he, the Hero, needs to be to deal 
> > > with his task. It's one of the handy accessories included in his 
> > > hero-ing bag o' tricks.
> > > 	Coulda been "bred" into him by Her Wizzy's instructions - like the 
> > > physical training obtained from playing football and the fencing 
> > > instructions. 
> > > 
> > 
> > I don't doubt it for a minute, Rufe. I suspect Evelyn Cyril's father had 
> > the same bump that got him and his squad back on track whenever they got 
> > off track on that happy road between Hagaru-ri and Hungnam. Remind me to 
> > lend you a copy of _Hold Back the Night_ sometime.
> > 
> > Her Wizzy, btw, is a GS-5 clerk out on sick leave most of the time, who 
> > should have kept knitting when Hero Gordon's request passed over her 
> > desk. He might have been happier if his "heroing package" hadn't been 
> > activated, in some universes. Being dropped into the "middle of a story" 
> > isn't a very kind fate. Look at what it gets you into. 

" ... I had fallen into a book.

"Well, I hoped it was a success and that the writer would keep me alive for lots of sequels. It was a pretty nice deal for the hero, up to this chapter at least. There was Dejah Thoris, curled up in her sleeping silks not twenty feet away.

    *     *      *     *

    "I watched the hurtling moons of Barsoom and fell asleep."
                           -- p. 76, end of Chapter 5, Glory Road

In _The Number of the Beast_ Heinlein dropped all four of his heroes "into a book" or several. [Or stories potentially several orders of magnitude higher than simply "a" book.]

Among other things we have to look forward to this centennial year of Heinlein is the fact that the archives of the UC Santa Cruz library are going on line (and will be on line by July 7). Included among them, as the trustee's letter informs us, will be "the unpublished original ending to _Number of the Beast_.

What do you suppose the original adventures Heinlein brought Oscar back to experience included?

And what does the fact that he changed the ending to one that brought Zeb and Oscar together portend?

 
-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

 
In article <ag.plusone-DDC665.04330722022007@individual.net>,
 "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

> Among other things we have to look forward to this centennial year of 
> Heinlein is the fact that the archives of the UC Santa Cruz library are 
> going on line (and will be on line by July 7). Included among them, as 
> the trustee's letter informs us, will be "the unpublished original 
> ending to _Number of the Beast_. 
> 
> What do you suppose the original adventures Heinlein brought Oscar back 
> to experience included? 
> 

    *     *     *     * 

kategladstone@mac.com: I wish I could see the before-"chopping" NUMBER 
OF THE BEAST.

AGplusone: The orginal was the one he wrote when he was suffering from 
the transient brain disease he described in Spin Off, that when he 
finished, everyone said wasn't publishable. So he put it aside.

OscagneTX: Does it resemble the published version at all?

kategladstone@mac.com: I suspect that RAH could write better works under 
the influence of a transient ischemic attack & its aftermath than most 
other best-selling authors manage in a lifetime.

BPRAL22169: I don't think time travel specifically -- all continuum 
travel is time travel, but not like specific.

AGplusone: Manuscript still exists so they say at UC Santa Cruz, and I 
think Bill said he glanced over it .... hence my question to Bill ...

BPRAL22169: It was an early sketch of the 1980 version

     *     *     *     *

BPRAL22169: It had them hooking up with Dr. Lafe Hubert, but not with 
the Tellus Tertius family

AGplusone: I was sorta hoping for a preview of Maureen's trip into 1930s 
Japan.

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes - I would have loved to see that! And to see 
her double, of course!

AGplusone: "Lafe Hubert" is one of Laz' many alias.

BPRAL22169: About 40% of the book was on Barsoom, about 50% with Lensman 
Ted Smith.

kategladstone@mac.com: Wow!

LV Poker Player: All right, my "One Impossibility that permits all else 
to be possible" is from a novel, not a story. That was direct quote this 
time.

BPRAL22169: And the Black hats -- Panki -- were all the vermin there 
were.

AGplusone: He the one who was unfrocked because of the argument over 
eugenics in TEFL? Before the plague?

OscagneTX: She was her double. At least I thought that was the allusion.

BPRAL22169: Yes -- the bit about finding a place with advanced medical 
facilities for the births occupied a much more prominent place. They 
ultimately

kategladstone@mac.com: The quote rings a Heinleinian bell ... but I 
can't remember WHICH bell! And, yes, "Dr. Lafe Hubert" lost his license 
over statements re eugenics (has this chat-group ever discussed that 
subject, by the way?)

BPRAL22169: decide not to stay in the Lensman universe because the War 
on Drugs was going on.

> And what does the fact that he changed the ending to one that brought 
> Zeb and Oscar together portend?

Would that have anything to do with our hero, Oscar, in _Glory Road_?

 
-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

 
David M. Silver wrote:
  < snip >
> Here's a similarity between two books by Heinlein, fifteen years apart, 
> that should be explored: early on during _Glory Road_ Oscar realizes 
> something strange: 
> 
>    " ... I had fallen into a book. 
> 
>    "Well, I hoped it was a success and that the writer would keep me 
> alive for lots of sequels. It was a pretty nice deal for the hero, up to 
> this chapter at least. There was Dejah Thoris, curled up in her sleeping 
> silks not twenty feet away. 
> 
>    *     *      *     *
> 
>    [Oscar thinks about curling up next to Deety 	It's Her Wiz, Dave, that
>    Oscar refers to as Dejah Thoris. 
>, but then remembers Rufo 
> curled up on the other side of the tent and his disconcerting habit of 
> coming awake with a dagger in his hand.]
> 
>    "I watched the hurtling moons of Barsoom and fell asleep."
>                            -- p. 76, end of Chapter 5, Glory Road
> 
> Fifteen years later, Heinlein recreates Evelyn Cyril, his clean-limbed 
> fighting man, and gives him another Dejah Thoris, literally, named Dejah 
> Thoris Burroughs, bringing him back to life for "lots of sequels." We 
> find later in the story that this new hero is physically identical to 
> Oscar, save he's named Zebidiah John Carter in this incantation. 
	But the parallelism you suggest does not exist: The apparent pairs are

2. (Andrew Jackson) Libby Long & Dejah Thoris Burroughs Carter Long

When the Hero & Mrs. Gordon arrive at the First Centennial Do, they are mistaken [at the distance of half a kilometer] for Zebby & Hamadryad ISHTAR Weatheral Long[!].

 
> 
> In _The Number of the Beast_ Heinlein dropped all four of his heroes 
> "into a book" or several. [Or stories potentially several orders of 
> magnitude higher than simply "a" book.] 
> 
> Among other things we have to look forward to this centennial year of 
> Heinlein is the fact that the archives of the UC Santa Cruz library are 
> going on line (and will be on line by July 7). Included among them, as 
> the trustee's letter informs us, will be "the unpublished original 
> ending to _Number of the Beast_. 
> 
> What do you suppose the original adventures Heinlein brought Oscar back 
> to experience included? 

 
> 
> And what does the fact that he changed the ending to one that brought 
> Zeb and Oscar together portend?

And then, Who Cares!

Of course, to continue to Mutt at you, I suggest both that

1. Not everyone mentioned in the Catalogue of that L'Envoi is destined to participate in the Further Adventures of the Senior and His Tribe - May they ever increase!

2. Assuredly RAH was familiar with and MAY have been somehow obliquely referencing Rostand's

 	"Qu'à la fin de l'envoi je touche!"

 	"And then, as I end the refrain, thrust home!"

Rufe

 
In article <tvrDh.5526$Jl.835@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
 "Dr. Rufo" <baybus@mindspring.com> wrote:

> 2. Assuredly RAH was familiar with and MAY have been somehow 
> obliquely referencing Rostand's
> 	"Qu'à la fin de l'envoi je touche!"
> which Brian Hooker beautifully rendered as: 	"And then, as I end the
> refrain, thrust home!" 

 
-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
     Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
     Lt.(jg), USN, R'td

Go To Postings Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room "heinleinreadersgroup."

morganuci: Hi David

AGplusone: Evening

LVPPakaAspie: This is off topic for Glory Road, but the following site should be of interest to any Heinlein fan http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phys98.htm

ichiban slug: my heart speeds up & my wrist twiches automatically like when gorden is describing being toyed with by his opponent...

ichiban slug: hullo mr. david, bethany pepper here.

AGplusone: A pleasure

AGplusone: "And then, as I end the refrain, thrust home!" (How many of us have the Hooker translation?)

AGplusone: What are we answering, Tim? And to where?

ichiban slug: mr. morgan has asked no leading questions yet mr. david

morganuci: Sorry, I had to run to check on dinner.

morganuci: We were just getting warmed up, so I hadn't asked any leading questions yet.

ichiban slug: nod

DocJam00 has entered the chat room.

morganuci: Hi Robert.

AGplusone: Hi, Robert ... Glory Road arrive out in the sticks, yet?

ichiban slug: ->wonders if it usually a stag affair here...

DocJam00 has left the chat room.

ichiban slug: joys of dial up?

AGplusone: What would Oscar do without Her Wisdom?

morganuci: You mean, if she never showed up on the island?

ichiban slug: biz. degree, 2 car garage, 2 marriges 1.5 kids?

DocJam00 has entered the chat room.

ichiban slug: *wave*

DocJam00: hello

xarophti has entered the chat room.

morganuci: Maybe. Or maybe he'd get into trouble (e.g., drugs) and his life would go down the toilet. I think a hero needs direction.

LVPPakaAspie: General comment: I distrust ANY government where one person has unchecked power. Sometimes you get Her Wisdom. Other times you get Caligula, Adolph Hitler, Ivan the Terrible, and such.

ichiban slug: no trouble for our oscar...he had a spine...

AGplusone: welcome again ... law degree (they make the money), 5 bedroom home in Valley--heroic sized family.

xarophti: Good Evening, all.

ichiban slug: he might have 'scotch & highballed' away his evenings though...

ichiban slug: eh?

LVPPakaAspie: Well, ok, I distrust any government, but one with a single person having unchecked, unquestioned power I distrust more than usual.

AGplusone: Hi, Xarophti

ichiban slug: but there's the catch, she was not 'one person' eh?

xarophti: Hi. I'm new to the group.

ichiban slug: *wave* me too!

JJ Brannon has entered the chat room.

ichiban slug: i'm bethany pepper, down in mississippi.

xarophti: (glad I'm not the only newbie in tonight)

AGplusone: We're discussing Glory Road generally ... and assembling. Hi, JJ, discussion of Glory Road ...

J Brannon: Coinkadentally I received a copy of that yesterday. :>)

AGplusone: wadda surprize!

ichiban slug: read it yet mr. [?]brannon?

morganuci: We wanted to make sure you had a copy for the discussion!

xarophti: I'm Shelly, in Pennsylvania. Yes, I know the topic for the evening. I was reviewing my (battered, old) copy for the originally scheduled date.

DocJam00 has left the chat room.

ichiban slug: lol!

J Brannon: Chance favors the prepared mind.

xarophti: beats cold shoulder!

J Brannon: Oddly, I was reflecting on Scar's preparation as a child.

J Brannon: The day before I received the book.

AGplusone: We usually start with a question from our moderator about the topic ....

J Brannon: Speaking of prepared minds, Her Wisdom left as little to chance as possible.

georule1861 has entered the chat room.

georule1861: Howdy

J Brannon: But I seek the answer to a mystery plaguing me from the first time

ichiban slug: *wave*

LVPPakaAspie: Are you the moderater tonight David?

J Brannon: I read the novel:

J Brannon: Who wrote the dust-jacket copy?

AGplusone: Hi, Geo, just starting Glory Road. Nope, Aspie, just here ... . (Probably David Hartman arranged for it, JJ).

J Brannon: "A tougher Tolkien or a more urban Burroughs"

AGplusone: Why?

LVPPakaAspie: Who is our moderator tonight?

morganuci: I guess I am. OK, how does Glory Road fit in with the rest of Heinlein's works? Is it Science Fiction?

AGplusone: Funny he should mention Burroughs ... Deety and Edgar Rice

ichiban slug: mr.morgan i do belive

georule1861: It's sort of new gen.

georule1861: Kind of Zelazny or Brust-ish.

georule1861: Fantasy dressed up as SF.

AGplusone: I think it's another beginning of the World As Myth ... Oscar finds himself fallen into a book.

J Brannon: This is the novel he wrote in six days from receiving a postcard?

xarophti: (oddly, someone had mentioned Scar's preparation as a child, and I was comparing in my mind Scar's childhood preparation for his adventures with Zeb's...)

ichiban slug: hmm, i say yes science fiction.

georule1861: My theory is it is the #1 guilty (unnecessarily) pleasure of Heinlein fans.

georule1861: I've read from this book at a wedding!

georule1861: (i.e. as part of the ceremony)

AGplusone: The "I wanted ... " passage?

ichiban slug: galactic-multi unerverse ruler, 4th demension, space travel, laser or light based weapons...

georule1861: Yep

georule1861: The very one, David.

georule1861: That passage is as quotable Heinlein as it gets.

AGplusone: It would fit.

morganuci: Was it written in 6 days?

georule1861: The Giffords wedding, if anyone cares.

morganuci: (Giffords' wedding) Completely appropriate then!

AGplusone: 'splain who the Giffords are, Geo.

AGplusone: test

morganuci: I hear you, David

AGplusone: Geo is bounced (despite showing in the room, still)

morganuci: Must be. Jim Gifford wrote the Heinlein Reader's Companion, a very useful reference work. Other connections?

AGplusone: The Giffords and a couple who met on the old Heinlein prodigy group

AGplusone: are

georule1861 has left the chat room.

AGplusone: and actually got married as a result ... Geo and Deb Rule are another couple who did the same.

Ron0859 has entered the chat room.

georule1861 has entered the chat room.

AGplusone: (as Geo fights his way back, I was explaining the similarity Jim and Audrey and you and Deb have)

georule1861: Ah.

georule1861: I introduced them.

AGplusone: Hi, Ron, welcome tonight. We're discussing Glory Road and the "I wanted ... " passage.

Ron0859: sounds good. tried getting in earlier but ran into "technical problems"

AGplusone: Geo was telling us he read it at a wedding of a couple who met on Internet discussing Heinlein in old Prodigy group.

georule1861: But two of the most different Heinleiners I know love that passage deeply.

georule1861: Gifford and Chuck Coffin.

georule1861: And that's pretty much two ends of this group of loonies we love.

AGplusone: Why does Oscar love the "I wanted ... " passages?

georule1861: You mean Chuck?

AGplusone: Is he an unrealized romantic like Roderick Walker, living anacronism?

ichiban slug: he could see clearly what HE wanted rather than what he had been 'sold' as his lifes ambition? @@

DavidWrightSr has entered the chat room.

AGplusone: (I know Chuck, and why--got drunk with him in Chicago couple years ago).

georule1861: He was created, of course. That's clear.

georule1861: Nor was he the only one.

ichiban slug: *wave* to mr. wright!

DavidWrightSr: Hi folks sorry I'm late.

georule1861: He's the successful end of the breeding and raising program.

morganuci: Evening David

ichiban slug: ridiculous mr.rule, positively

xarophti: Good Evening.

georule1861: He's not just the romantic. He's the frustrated romantic, which is even more powerful.

AGplusone: That's nothing more than Her Wizzie telling the guy out on point that he's a superman -- eine volk, eine leder, eine Reich!

georule1861: You think?

ichiban slug: a fencing master does not make a person recognize 'live' steel when one holds it.

georule1861: I think Star is much too much of a pragmatist to not have a few more arrows in the quiver.

AGplusone: Why not, Geo? Raise his morale somehow.

ichiban slug: i don't doubt you there mr. rule

AGplusone: Who believes what Her Wizzie sez? Rufo doesn't.

georule1861: Well, there is that.

ichiban slug: it was in a convo somewhere that she would spend as much time as needed to find the hero who would be successful

AGplusone: She's probably been lying to him since she stole his nice new candy sucker in the cradle.

J Brannon: There were back ups. Who doesn't believe Her Wisdom didn't pick the best whenher life was on the line for the first, maybe last shot?

AGplusone: Her Wizzie is searching for an egg, Dejah Thoris laid them--what's the difference?

AGplusone: How do we know Oscar isn't the last shot?

ichiban slug: the trials before the tower test the mettle of the sword a bit as well as put an edge on it?

georule1861: That part is clear.

J Brannon: Rufo says as much to Scar.

morganuci: Agreed

ichiban slug: nod

AGplusone: And it's not all a bad dream, and he's laying in the mud, bled out, while the chopper blades go, "Wup, wup, wup ... "

georule1861: This doesn't mean they hadn't been scouted in advance however.

morganuci: It could be a dream, but then, what's the point of the book?

MizzezHappy has entered the room.

ichiban slug: she sang to the doral oscars exploits from a child onwards,yes?

AGplusone: What's the point of any "ficta" as Heinlein, and Hazel, call them?

ichiban slug: ficta?

JJ Brannon: RAH's stroke of genius is all that transpires after the Ring of the Nibelung is retrieved

toxdoc1947 has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Everybody welcome Sarah(MizzezHappy) She has been trying to get my attention but I've been offline.

JJ Brannon: Howdy, Sarah!

MizzezHappy: I got lost on my way in

toxdoc1947: hello everyone

xarophti: Hello, Sarah

MizzezHappy: Hello everyone

ichiban slug: *wave*

AGplusone: Yeah, the pun Hazel makes in Number of the Beast (both versions), describing multi-watchmacallit--sopholism.

AGplusone: Hi, Mizzez

NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Jim.

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello!

ichiban slug: what were you sold as your 'dream'?

georule1861: Why Cyrano, btw?

georule1861: There are other great swordsmen.

georule1861: For the poetry?

toxdoc1947: I'm a fencer - anyone else?

AGplusone: (for the Hooker translation), for the fact that the character wrote the first SF in French ...

ichiban slug: ->jumps up & down i am!

AGplusone: first trip to the moon?

morganuci: Sorry David, you lost me.

toxdoc1947: then you're familiar with the mind-set of a competitive fencer

georule1861: Ah, I'd forgotten that part.

xarophti: Is the pun you mean "The First Centennial Convention of the Interuniversal Society for Eschatological Pantheistic Multiple-Ego Solipsism"?

AGplusone: And a house fell on his head?

AGplusone: That one, zarophti.

ichiban slug: <grin> wanna find out?

xarophti: (sorry, it took me a minute to find it in "Beast")

toxdoc1947: are we digressing from glory road?

AGplusone: Actually, a discussion by Hazel before then, when four in Number realize that why they're going where they're going is because of their creative minds

georule1861: The other thing I've always felt about this book, is that it starts RAH's habit of kicking his previous works in the shin on purpose.

ichiban slug: nod, lotsa tangents...

AGplusone: And foreseeing his later ones.

toxdoc1947: ahhh - business as usual

morganuci: Geo, can you elaborate on that?

georule1861: Maybe kicking his previous books is not quite right. . . maybe kicking those who put them a bit high on the shelf.

ichiban slug: if they were within reach of my point i could herd these cats....;-)

georule1861: Well, Tim, I read Heinlein, particularly in that one interview, as being a big believer in 'there are no final answers"

AGplusone: problem is, each cat has as sharp a point, on each paw, times five.

morganuci: Stranger in particular (put on a high shelf)?

georule1861: Stranger, Trooper, Moon.

georule1861: Principally.

morganuci: Moon wasn't written yet

ichiban slug: yup but my claw is 35"....

georule1861: No, but he kicks Moon later.

georule1861: In CAT

AGplusone: The Omni interview?

morganuci: Yes, right.

toxdoc1947: ichi: epee?

georule1861: So everyone who thinks that Trooper glorifies the bloody infantry gets a bit of comeuppance in Glory Road.

ichiban slug: schallgewr i duel in the sca now

JJ Brannon: RAH was more interested in the right kind of questions than "a" right answer.

georule1861: That goes right back to the beginning too.

georule1861: Listen to the Denvention speech.

georule1861: it's clear.

toxdoc1947: I'm still in the olympic fencing style arena

georule1861: He wants you to think, not think for you.

DavidWrightSr: Does anyone have a log upto when I got in that they could e-mail me?

morganuci: I'll save the log and email it to you, barring disconnection!

DavidWrightSr: Thanks.

Krin135 has entered the room.

Krin135: evening all...ltnc

morganuci: Someone mentioned 6 days---was this book written that fast? If so, is that Heinlein's speed record??

LVPPakaAspie: 28 days, if I remember right.

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello Chuck

morganuci: 28's more believable. Door into Summer was supposed to be 14?

LVPPakaAspie: I haven't heard anything about Door.

Krin135: NW, howdy

morganuci: The story was, their cat kept wanting to be let out, but there was snow on the ground outside every door.

morganuci: Ginny said he (she?) was looking for the door into summer. Robert jumped up and said "Don't say another word!", rushed off and produced Door.

georule1861: Gifford says 23 days in ARC

georule1861: For GR, that is.

morganuci: (he/she is the cat, that is)

morganuci: Ready for a new question?

georule1861: Go for it.

morganuci: Was Star ever really interested in Oscar, or was she spending just a second (from her perspective) with him only as a means to manipulate him into doing her bidding?

LVPPakaAspie: She would not have started him on the long life treatment program if that were the case.

ichiban slug: i think she loved him in her own strange primitive way myself...

georule1861: I think Star was as female as a cat in heat (to steal).

toxdoc1947: I'd say she was using him

Krin135: I'd have to say she had no interest in him initially

JJ Brannon: Define "interest".

georule1861: And that meant big musclebound heroes who can wield their blade(s) curled her toes.

Krin135: in terms of long term, JJ

NuclearWasteUSN: Given some of the views he gave about enlightened self interest and philanthropy the answer would seem to be yes and no.

JJ Brannon: I think Star was an admirer of art and examples of arete.

toxdoc1947: but she held up her end of the bargain

JJ Brannon: Therefore, yes.

Krin135: once she had invested in him to the point of having her tender tush on the line

Krin135: UNLIKE the others recorded, I'd say that she bought into Scar

toxdoc1947: yeah, but if he had failed, she'd have started looking for another "hero"

JJ Brannon: I think she was interested in Gordon for the long term, only...

AGplusone: One of many tools ... ? Start the mission and check in occasionally to see if he's done yet? Although she claims she'll die on the mission if he fails.

JJ Brannon: ...he was a tad green.

Krin135: and the long life therapy is a good indication that she was looking a long term relation

ichiban slug: nod, she was not a lovesick fool, she had a empire to rule

JJ Brannon: Supremely pragmatic.

AGplusone: Maybe she's just granting his wishes, for a long life and a lot of sequels, he made when he realized he'd fallen into a book.

Krin135: AG, I think that there are indications that Star came to realize that the others failed for that reason

xarophti: I think it is entirely possible to begin with pragmatic self-interest and have it evolve into something deeper.

Krin135: that Herself wasn't along

ichiban slug: but his happines was important to her own... so

Krin135: Ichi, that is part of RAH's definition of love

xarophti: by the Heinleinien definition of love...

NuclearWasteUSN: good point slug

georule1861: She knew long term was hopeless, but I don't see any reason to think she wasn't pretty much as represented. . .which was enjoying him for as long as he would let her, knowing he wouldn't stay a pet for long.

AGplusone: Agreed, chuck.

morganuci: That's my take as well.

JJ Brannon: Recall, Star Herself was a tool -- one of many -- cultivated for a purpose.

AGplusone: He needs her and Rufo.

Krin135: so once she accepted that she would have to play a part, she also accepted that she would become vulnerable

AGplusone: And Rufo might have to turn out to be a back up, to take their bodies home.

ichiban slug: ->thinks it is great to be in a room full of people who know how to define love properly...!

Krin135: to a long term emotional entaglment

AGplusone: To shave Oscar, so to speak.

Krin135: good point David

georule1861: Don't forget, and I think this is important. . .she has a mini fit at Rufo right after they've got the egg, because he insists on telling Oscar the truth.

georule1861: She has the egg.

georule1861: He's not strictly necessary anymore.

Krin135: but then, Rufo ended up with HIS tush just as much on the line at the end

AGplusone: (unlike Dejah Thoris, who lays them, as I said earlier).

georule1861: So the only rational explanation right then is she is truly enjoying what's going on and isn't ready for it to end yet.

Krin135: well, Geo, Herself also realizes that each level of memory She adds to her mind

morganuci: How long would she have let it go on?

AGplusone: Well, she needed a break from the Ruler mode.

ichiban slug: as well as letting oscar enjoy his triumph without any doubts thrown in...

Krin135: changes her enough to potentially ruin any relationship she might have

georule1861: It's an emotional reaction for sure.

Krin135: and Rufo realizes that those changes are as much would not be fair to Scar as anything else

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georule1861: At some level the ruler had to know that she needed to get cracking on catching up with the egg.

Krin135: another point here is the 'there are no atheists in Foxy Holes' rule

georule1861: So she couldn't let it go much longer anyway.

AGplusone: eeew! Chuck, that's soooo evil.

Krin135: the shared danger, and the relief thereof, tends to rile the hormones of ANY human type

AGplusone: Besides, Oscar believes in falling into books--isn't that enough for a belief? If you clap your hands?

Krin135: David, you and I and Nuke, and I don't know how many others here, share the common bond of Rufo and Scar, if not that of Star and Scar

AGplusone: Oscar's bond has even got a Fairy Godmother Department, although I don't recall seeing one during any tour I had of it.

Krin135: I did...first tour, Ft Sill, OK, 1980

AGplusone: (I guess she was out on sick leave).

morganuci: New question, the crux of the book: what IS the value of a hero, once the quest is over?

toxdoc1947: I got touched by the fairy godmother department when I was in the army

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Krin135: ok, first define heroism for me

morganuci: Takers?

Krin135: When was that, Tox? FLW class of 1979 here

AGplusone: what makes heroes a valuable item other than cannon fodder?

Krin135: wait one, Morgan

Krin135: first define heroism

JJ Brannon: Heinlein's whole metatheme is on the nature and importance of context.

ichiban slug: doing it even though ya want someone else to do it?

Krin135: nope, Ichi

AGplusone: Laying in the mud, while the choppers go "wup, wup, wup ... "

Krin135: not good enough

georule1861: Are a hero and a Hero the same thing/

georule1861: ?

Krin135: still not good enough, AG...that one goes along with 'never share a bunker with anyone braver than you are'

MizzezHappy: risking yourself for a cause that continues beyond yourself?

georule1861: The canon fodder remark is why I asked.

Krin135: postulate: anyone can be a hero, but it takes a hero to be a Hero

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Krin135: and Heros live through the Ages

U Wolf: Hello All.

Krin135: hi Wolf

JJ Brannon: Hi, Wolf.! Everybody say hi to my friend.

MizzezHappy: Hi Wolf

xarophti: Hello!

morganuci: Hi Wolf

AGplusone: How many true Heroes in Heinlein? Dalquist ain't--it was an accident; Sam Roberts or Richards wasn't--it just worked out that way and he ate what was on his plate ... name a hero other than Oscar.

Ron0859: Hi Wolf

Krin135: I'd argue there, AG

Krin135: the hero can be the little girl playing the piano as the smoke curls around her head

MizzezHappy: the biggest heroes don't choose to be heros

U Wolf: Name is Lowell, or Uncle is usuall nick name.

AGplusone: /ga, Chuck. Argue

Krin135: so that her classmates can march out to safety

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toxdoc1947: US Army Intelligence School '68-69

AGplusone: The difference is Oscar does choose to be a Hero, and heads right back for Glory Road. That's the point of the second part of the novel.

JJ Brannon: But David's talking about avatars with a capital H.

U Wolf: A hero is someone who chance puts in harms way, and they choose to deal with the situation rather than dying of fear.

Krin135: agreed, Lowell

Krin135: the Hero then goes beyond that

morganuci: I'm not so sure Dahlquist isn't a Hero. True, he fell into the circumstances, but he could have been a louse.

xarophti: yes, I agree. He could have just "followed orders" and gone along with his commander

JJ Brannon: Agreed. And Heinlein has many fine heroes who eat what's set before them and

Krin135: Dahlquist also was a Hero, as were the Three Never Left Behind

JJ Brannon: ask for a tad more Tabasco.

U Wolf: And in Glory Road, Oscar makes that choise, and then follows through...And goes beyond.

AGplusone: He just keeps trying to solve the smallest piece of the problem, which is what gets him into the end, Tim.

toxdoc1947: I agree about dahlquist

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U Wolf: Jim, no, Liquimen and Tabasco

ichiban slug: so mr.krin, hero of the capital h?

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Krin135: A Hero goes beyond, by ending up, for what ever reason, even in the agony of de feet

AGplusone: But Dalquist and the others are

Krin135: something or someone so well known, as to Inspire future victories

AGplusone: accidental heroes

AGplusone: not Heroes'

ichiban slug: hmm

Krin135: don't matter, deliberate, or accidental, David

xarophti: wasn't Oscar, at the beginning?

Krin135: Oscar was a hero from the start

JJ Brannon: Did Scar plan his heroism? Star did, but did he?

U Wolf: Krin, a hero does not need to be "recognised by future generations"... Most are infact unknown...

AGplusone: Naw, Oscar is bred to the trade.

Krin135: by 'eating what was on his plat

ichiban slug: no anon 'Heros then in your book?

Krin135: agreed, Lowell

georule1861: Yes, he did.

Krin135: but Heros must by definition, be known by the future

georule1861: That's what "I wanted" is about, isn't it?

AGplusone: Daddy Hero ... Oscar Hero ... sons will be Heroes.

Krin135: inspirations

georule1861: Planning on that hero bit.

JJ Brannon: You know what I regret?

xarophti: what?

Krin135: besides not having a sequel to the book, JJ?

U Wolf: LOL, both Star and Scar probably arranged for Oscar's breeding ..

JJ Brannon: That kids today reading about the Irish Sweepstakes will totally miss the significance.

Krin135: Star and Rufo, you mean, Lowell?

ichiban slug: 'unsung heros''

AGplusone: Daddy uses "bump of direction" to walk out of Hagaru to Hangnam,

Oscar uses bumb to find egg.

U Wolf: Krin, I disagree that heros must be known..

Krin135: Ichi, there are unsung heros...I work with a lot of them

Krin135: but Heros must be

U Wolf: And yes, Star and Rufo, not Scar, except in an oblique way.

Krin135: among some group or another

Krin135: how many have visited the Alamo?

JJ Brannon: There's Heinlein's own unnamed tramp on the railroad tracks.

georule1861: I have.

toxdoc1947: Interesting, my dad was a Hero - landed on Omaha beach D-day; later got transferred to Pacific and was on iwo jima as well as okinawa

Krin135: or the pass where the Spartans stood?

AGplusone: Alergic to Texas, sorry.

U Wolf: Krin, the ACT of heroism must be known, but the hero might not.

toxdoc1947: I guess I never had the opportunity to see if it was inherited

Krin135: chuckle...have you been in active practice of medicine, Tox?

U Wolf: And Krin, I have been to the Alamo, but the road to the pass was blocked by tourists...

AGplusone: Be nice to visit Hot Springs, tho, sometimes.

xarophti: Anyone consider Jubal's description of "The Fallen Caryatid" to Ben in "Stranger"? Does that fall under the catagory of "hero"?

Krin135: ah...must have been there when they were filiming the movie several years ago

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AGplusone: Could, xaro

U Wolf: Xaro, I would say so.

toxdoc1947: am not a reall doctor ;-) pharm.d. clinical toxicologist poison control center director

ichiban slug: so mr.krin, by your definition one must have pig boys agog to be a 'real capt. h hero'?

Krin135: Xaro, I'd class She who Was the Beautiful as more of a Hero than 'The fallen'

Krin135: nope, Ichi

Krin135: must also be able to inspire girls as well

ichiban slug: mr. tox =mr.yuk!

JJ Brannon: I've seen that in Philly at the Rodin Museum.

Krin135: "She who Was" didn't fail spectacularly

xarophti: I see what you mean, but RAH expounds on it when describing "Caryatid". The phone operator staying at her post while smoke chokes her escape, the father working for one more paycheck while cancer eats him inside, etc...

Krin135: as did Fallen

toxdoc1947: nah - Mr. Yuk requires up front money and significant royalties

JJ Brannon: Heinlein's one strange mistake in Stranger.

toxdoc1947: i had better uses for the money

Krin135: yes...and I've already refered to that, and I can agree it was a mistake

U Wolf: It seems to me that Krin's definition is a person whos actions inspire, and who must stand up for all to worship...

AGplusone: How come Zebbie is a remade Hero, in Oscar's image? What was Heinlein up to there?

Krin135: may not survive to be worshipped, Lowel

U Wolf: And unfortunately, most of those are frauds of one sort or another, living on the actions of others.

JJ Brannon: Helmetmaker's Wife.

JJ Brannon: The Dutch Boy in the Dark.

Krin135: besides those of us who are former military, how many know the percentage of non posthoumus US Medal of Honor awardees?

U Wolf: Jim, agreed...

AGplusone: Helmet prices musta dropped a lot from when she was young.

AGplusone: Considering that it's known as the "You Should Really, Really Be Dead" Medal, we can guess.

U Wolf: Krin, never been officially in the military, I suspect it is 85+% never live to enjoy it.

Krin135: more like 95 plus

JJ Brannon: Tad higher, eh?

Krin135: eyah

U Wolf: Well, not having officially been in the military, I came pretty close.

Krin135: even higher than that of Vickies Cross among the Brits

JJ Brannon: But Heinlein speaks to this in Glory Road. About unseen heroes.

Krin135: ummm...fire fighters, police officers

ichiban slug: yes?

Krin135: single moms doing their best

U Wolf: Jim, not only speaks, but elucidates to make a point that the unseen heros are often the real Heros

ichiban slug: capital h? or lower case?

JJ Brannon: The student that bumps into him at the soda shop. "Sorry, Pops." I let him live.

AGplusone: Heroism is something like Pug aspires towards ... he'll heroically shovel manure for years for the Doral.

JJ Brannon: Walking the Glory Road only brings intermittant glory. Else why doesn't Scar recognize Cyrano???

ichiban slug: nod

Krin135: esp since many of the later problems he has to solve are actually out of his own mind

AGplusone: Until the time someone tells everyone else he killed "Seven With One Blow" and then he'll try manfully to deliver against the stranger in the castle in Carpenthia.

U Wolf: JJ, in an unexpected encounter, some people wouldn't recognise their own brother...

AGplusone: Why is Cyrano is a castle in Carpenthia?

ichiban slug: nope, not buying that mr wolf

Krin135: chuckle...I get that all the time, Lowell

AGplusone: Is he in a dream after the House Fell on His Head?

Krin135: 'I didn't recognize you in clothing'

ichiban slug: mr.heinlein was making a point

JJ Brannon: I failed to recall my brother's name once while introducing him.

AGplusone: Him and Oscar both coming on this thing from bad dreams, fallen into books?

Krin135: mmmm....Mr. Heinlein was writing to amuse and to make money

ichiban slug: he even rubbed our noses in it..."funny he did not tell me his name, he seemed to expect i knew it already.."

Krin135: making folks think was a delightful consequence for all but two of the books

U Wolf: Ich, well, perhaps not brother, but one of my student's didn't recognise me last wednesday, and I had her for five courses...

JJ Brannon: And thought the mature woman exiting the elevator defintiely had the most class of all the occupants.

JJ Brannon: It took me another minute to recognize my own mother.

JJ Brannon: It happens.

U Wolf: and she only graduated last year.... She didn't recognise me in my grubbies in front of her at the cash register, till I spoke her name.

Krin135: lol...Lowell, what do you teach?

ichiban slug: mr. krin i think it would be foolish to ascribe a single motivator for creating...

U Wolf: Krin, Computer Infrastructure, Ecology..AA Level

Krin135: then please read comments that Sr. Heinlein has made...

JJ Brannon: As I said earlier. RAH's metatheme in this book is the importance of context.

Krin135: to borrow from Belisarius, RAH was a craftsman, and one good enough to be paid well for his efforts

JJ Brannon: Easy Gordon's a nutcase to the LA police, carrying that pigsticker.

AGplusone: What's his metatheme, JJ ... that Gordon's fallen into a fairy tale?

Krin135: that I can agree with, JJ

JJ Brannon: Glory Road was also the first Vietnam War novel I read.

U Wolf: Krin, which set of comments? I can steer a ship, deliver a baby, sew a garmet, cook a tasty meal, ect.

Krin135: did you read it before or after, SST?

AGplusone: Unless it was Laos, and the White Teams in '59-61.

U Wolf: JJ, yep, an early one for sure, I read it about that time as well.

JJ Brannon: That a hero in one context is a loser without a job, a house, a college degree in another.

Krin135: David, was it in EU or Tramp where RAH discusses his motivation for writing as being one to get paid?

JJ Brannon: Before SST.

AGplusone: I never believe what writers say about their motivation.

Krin135: the few times I was graced with a short conversation with Ms. Ginny

xarophti: I saw some in his letters in "Grumbles from the Grave"

U Wolf: Heinlein probably did it cause it was fun, and less work than not farming corn

georule1861: That getting paid stuff was blatantly defense mechanism to deflect acolytes who expected to get it spoon fed to them for the asking.

ichiban slug: you got that right mr.plus one!

AGplusone: I think his motivation was a fetish to dirty paper on one side.

Krin135: oh, that's low, David

Krin135: I refer you to the Apple Pie discussion in SST

georule1861: He said that early at one point.

AGplusone: That how Cabell described it.

JJ Brannon: yes, but his genius was to be paid for his fetish.:>)

JJ Brannon: Paid well!

AGplusone: He was quoting Cabell.

georule1861: That after telling Campbell he was through as soon as one was rejected. . .

Krin135: both in cash and in respect

U Wolf: David, besides, he dirtied paper on both sides , and yes, Cabell did make that statement.

georule1861: he let himself get talked back into it.

AGplusone: I dunno. The manuscripts I've read are all typed on one side.

Krin135: foo...no being talked back into it

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Krin135: hi Osc

OscagneTX: howdy. Just got home form class. still goign?

U Wolf: David, the typed ones are, the hand written ones are on both sides

georule1861: I do love Campbell's description tho.

AGplusone: Hi, Joe, we're nice and busy ... talking about Heinlein's motivation in writing GR.

JJ Brannon: As to his metatheme of context's importance, we are talking about a "failed" sailor.

georule1861: He said something like. . .when I want a story from Bob Heinlein, first I have to convince him he needs a new pool. . .

U Wolf: Ok, I need to go, perhaps I will drop by again...

georule1861: . . and then I have to convince him not to build it himself.

Krin135: nice to meet you Lowell

ichiban slug: *wave*

AGplusone: I've seen notes but never handwritten manuscripts, but I've only seen a few. STill, FUTL, was typewritten.

xarophti: good night

Krin135: Geo, considering the amount of work with the wheel barrows, I can beleive that one

morganuci: Bye!

AGplusone: And I know I've seen it.

U Wolf: I book marked this, now when I find out what nights I teach next quarter...

georule1861: I've seen a few ms of late.

georule1861: No handwritten.

U Wolf: Getting my second masters degree and teaching 3-4 classes...

DavidWrightSr: Lowell, if you aren't on the notification mailing list email me at dwrighsr@alltel.net

U Wolf: So, I am, a wee bit less sure of my availability....

AGplusone: Speaking of manuscripts, do you know that Dula sent me Number when I went in for my by-pass, Geo. I think he was trying to cheer me up. Nice of him.

U Wolf: Thank you david, I will do that right now.

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georule1861: No, I didn't. Good for him and you.

AGplusone: Reread it last night for fun.

AGplusone: Fascinating ...

JJ Brannon: David, I know I'll see you in July. Will you becoming to Balticon?

morganuci: That manuscript is going to be available on the web at some point?

Krin135: I hate to say it, but I'm selfish enough that I've got FUTL stuck back as my only 'unread' Heinlein

AGplusone: Nice to go in for surgery knowing that Dula wanted to be sure that I'd read it all. Yes, in July, Tim. Why I keep mentioning the similarities between GR's Oscar, and Number's Zebbie.

Krin135: mmmm...I'll have to chew on that one

Krin135: there are some similarities, I'll agree

toxdoc1947: me too

Krin135: but Zeb is a child of privelege when push comes to shove

toxdoc1947: I think there's a fundamental difference

AGplusone: He sez they're dopplegangers in Number

Krin135: still have to chew on that one

georule1861: Zeb's childhood wasn't manipulated by Star.

Krin135: may need to stop and check the books out of the local library

AGplusone: but what difference do you see Toxdoc

Krin135: still down in Butler, MO

Krin135: the main difference I see is in the beginnings

AGplusone: physically the same when they meet, but as to character, what?

georule1861: Zeb knew he had $1M coming if he diddled the system.

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georule1861: Or whatever it was.

georule1861: His share of grandpas will.

Krin135: other thing being that Scar ended up being able to make command decisions

AGplusone: I think Zebbie's a dilletante, Oscar's the Real Deal.

Krin135: while Zeb never got beyond pilot when push came to shove

AGplusone: But, consider, how did Heinlein write Zebbie originally? What will the original unpublished manuscript show?

Krin135: possibly the Scar, and the reason for the Scar, was part of the difference

AGplusone: Where was Heinlein going with the unpublished "Panki-Barsoom" Number.

Krin135: AG, you have an advantage on me there...

AGplusone: Yeah ... and I'm hinting it might be fun to find out.

georule1861: Zeb is partly the --If This Goes On Zeb too tho.

georule1861: The incredibly smart guy who's playing the system for fun.

Krin135: point taken

georule1861: Until Sh*t Happens and he has to make a stand.

AGplusone: Zeb most reminds me of Sam from Puppet Masters. Untried until Push Came to Shove.

Krin135: and to a certain extant IFTGO results in that Z turning into at least a hero

AGplusone: Like Smitty in Red Planet. Sticking around to make sure his investments don't get lost.

Krin135: mmmm...

georule1861: Well, at least Sam is already a highly trained operative in the organization.

Krin135: taking that stand is part of the definition of hero that we've already discussed

georule1861: He's not hanging out at a university having fun.

toxdoc1947: Zebbie had the potential, buy allowed himself to be pushed around too much when he knew what should have been done

georule1861: Tho it is "the family business"

AGplusone: The beginning scene if both Numbers are the same. He meets Mad Scientist's Daughter and they leave to exploading cars and encounter the "Beasts" called Pankera or Panki.

AGplusone: And they find that all close time lines are infested with Panki ...

georule1861: /me makes a note to look that up.

AGplusone: And wind up on Barsoom ... that much is pretty well know, and where they find that the Beasts are identical to Pankera who once invaded Barsoon.

xarophti: I'm not sure what you mean by "both Numbers"

xarophti: different version?

AGplusone: Although which of the John Carter books it was, I'll be damned if I can find it.

AGplusone: Yeah, Heinlein's first version was deemed unpublishable. Ginny told him not to. So he put it aside. Later, after the operation on his brain, he went back

AGplusone: highgraded part of it, and rewrote parts.

Krin135: brain or neck, AG?

AGplusone: brain

xarophti: ah. Guess I've never seen that version

Krin135: k

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AGplusone: Few have. It's (what's left of it, which has the highgraded parts removed) is i