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Heinlein Reader's Discussion Group

Thursday 02-07-2002 9:00 P.M. EST

Heinlein's Mysteries

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings


Robert Heinlein Reading Group chat

Theme: Heinlein's Mysteries

Dates and times: Thursday, February 7, 9 PM to midnight, EST and Saturday, February 9, 5 PM to 8 PM, EST.

Chat Host: Agplusone

Place: AIM chatroom "Heinlein Readers Group chat"

Recommended Reading: The short story "They Do It With Mirrors" in the collection Expanded Universe; the novella "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag" collected in The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag or in The Fantasies of Robert A. Heinlein; and the novel The Cat That Walked Through Walls.

One of my brief essays follows. Caveat lector, as always.

The writing of science fiction and fantasy didn't evolve in a vacuum, springing from nowhere for no reason. The generally speculative fiction writings of Robert Heinlein we read, study and appreciate here, are self-described by their author as stories of character development. Heinlein reasoned early in his career stories of character development were of more enjoyment to him to write and more utility to readers than other sorts of tales. He also believed the speculative fiction genre, his term for both science fiction and fantasy, offered more power or utility to him than any other genre because it allowed more freedom from market conventions and publisher censorship than others.

Science fiction and fantasy didn't begin in the 20th century. Earlier, there were popular stories by Kipling, Verne, even Cyrano de Bergerac and Swift; and writing of them continued through the turn of this last century with Wells, Bellamy, and others. But speculative fiction transformed itself mightily in popularity when its major publication venue became the newsstand pulp magazines -- a rough equivalent of todays paperback market. At the same time, during the 1920s and -30s, that speculative fiction was being transformed in the pulps, there was another genre greatly changing in that same low-level and disregarded, but freer strata of publishing. It had been written earlier as well. Poe, Twain, Collins, Doyle, others, all tried their hands on it. This was mystery writing. For every Astounding Science Fiction magazine, there was another pulp just as popular and as good down a few places on the newsstand rack named something like Black Mask. And it became far more popular than science fiction, remaining so today.

A well-known, very successful mystery writer of that time once noted that mystery stories had a certain power of their own that appealed to him. He didn't think this power was "entirely a matter of violence ... certainly not a matter of fine writing ... [n]or was it because of any great originality of plot or character." He suggested, "[p]ossibly it was the smell of fear which these stories managed to generate. Their characters lived in a world gone wrong, a world in which, long before the atom bomb, civilization had created the machinery of its own destruction, and was learning to use it with all the moronic delight of a gangster trying out his first machine gun. ..."

Opening with a setting is one way to generate fear. My favorite opening passage, a very well-known one from the mystery genre, is this:

There was a desert wind blowing that night. It was one of those hot dry 
Santa Anas that come down through the mountain passes and curl your hair 
and make your nerves jump and your skin itch. On nights like that every 
booze party ends in a fight. Meek little wives feel the edge of the 
carving knife and study their husbands necks. Anything can happen. . . .
--from Raymond Chandler's "Red Wind," at page 7
in The Midnight Chandler (1971, Houghton Mifflin, Boston)

Try reading this, and compare:

That Sunday, the sun floated bright and hot over the Los Angeles basin, 
pushing people to the beaches and the parks and into backyard pools to 
escape the heat. The air buzzed with the nervous palsy it gets when the 
wind freight-trains in from the desert, dry as a bone, and cooking the 
hillsides into tar-filled kindling that can snap into flames hot enough 
to melt an auto body.
The Verdugo Mountains above Glendale were burning. . . .

I delight in finding obvious literary acknowledgements of those who have gone before us. I think this is one of them. It's from the opening chapter of the novel L.A. Requiem (1999, Ballantine, NYC), and its that same damned Santa Ana wind Raymond Chandler experienced.

L.A. Requiem is written by Robert Crais. Mr. Crais may be a guest author for an RAH-AIM reading group chat in the immediate future.

For this reason, and because we've never directly considered Robert Heinlein's use of the mystery genre in our previous chats, I've chosen this next meetings theme.

More about Mr. Crais later (you may look ahead to his writings if you're not familiar with them by visiting his website at http://www.robertcrais.com/ and note the photos and comments by him particularly at http://www.robertcrais.com/worldheinlein.htm ); but while we're awaiting the final word on scheduling, we can explore the conventions of mystery story writing, Robert Heinlein's works that make use of those conventions and see if there's greater or lesser differences between it and speculative fiction writing than we imagine.

What can we say about the recommended writings of Robert Heinlein above, and how they make use of the genre? Please remember, the more pre-meeting post we have, the better the chats.

To attend the chats, and any reasonable person is welcome, you may receive instructions on how to download and use AIM freeware on the website located at

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

Email myself ( ag.plusone@verizon.net or agplusone@aol.com ), or Dave Wright, Sr, ( dwrighsr@alltel.net ) if you require further help getting the freeware or getting into the room.

I'm looking forward to many more than the usual number of pre-meeting posts on this seldom discussed topic.

   --
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"

"David Silver"

>A well-known, very successful mystery writer of that time once noted
>that mystery stories had a certain power of their own that appealed to
>him. He didn't think this power was "entirely a matter of violence ...
>certainly not a matter of fine writing ... [n]or was it because of any
>great originality of plot or character." He suggested, "[p]ossibly it
>was the smell of fear which these stories managed to generate. Their
>characters lived in a world gone wrong, a world in which, long before
>the atom bomb, civilization had created the machinery of its own
>destruction, and was learning to use it with all the moronic delight of
>a gangster trying out his first machine gun. ..."
>
>> David M. Silver
>http://www.heinleinsociety.org
>"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
>
Interestingly, in an interview Asimov gave shortly before he passed away, he said he actually enjoyed writing mysteries more than s-f, but he got paid more for the s-f, so he still wrote it, and because he said he couldn't say no to his publisher who still wanted it.

--Steve B.


Steve Burwen wrote:
>"David Silver"
> 
> 
>>A well-known, very successful mystery writer of that time once noted
>>that mystery stories had a certain power of their own that appealed to
>>him. He didn't think this power was "entirely a matter of violence ...
>>certainly not a matter of fine writing ... [n]or was it because of any
>>great originality of plot or character." He suggested, "[p]ossibly it
>>was the smell of fear which these stories managed to generate. Their
>>characters lived in a world gone wrong, a world in which, long before
>>the atom bomb, civilization had created the machinery of its own
>>destruction, and was learning to use it with all the moronic delight of
>>a gangster trying out his first machine gun. ..."
>>
>>
>>>David M. Silver
>>>
>>http://www.heinleinsociety.org
>>"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
>>
>>
> 
>Interestingly, in an interview Asimov gave shortly before he passed away, he
>said he actually enjoyed writing mysteries more than s-f, but he got paid
>more for the s-f, so he still wrote it, and because he said he couldn't say
>no to his publisher who still wanted it.
> 
> --Steve B.
> 
> 
Regarding "They Do It With Mirrors," Heinlein observed "a) whodunnits are fairly easy to write and easy to sell; b) I was no threat to Raymond Chandler or Rex Stout as the genre didn't interest me that much; and c) Crime Does Not Pay -- Enough (the motto of the Mystery Writers of America)."

Heinlein was at least in agreement with Asimov on the last point (price paid for mystery stories).

I suppose the corollary of mystery's greater reader popularity is the larger number of publication opportunities, the greater number of writers, and the lower price of stories; but have you looked at "Mirrors," Steve?

Do you think it fair to describe Heinlein's skill in writing mystery as 'no threat' to Chandler or Stout? If so, why? Would you say the same comparing Hoag with the stories of Stout or Chandler?

   --
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
   Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
   Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

>Do you think it fair to describe Heinlein's skill in writing mystery as 
>'no threat' to Chandler or Stout? If so, why? Would you say the same 
>comparing Hoag with the stories of Stout or Chandler?
I do share Heinlein's assessment in regard to "Mirrors" -- it's just a gimmick story written in a fairly conventional way. A teacher at UC Riverside pointed out that when Heinlein was first working in a field, he would hew close to the conventions, gradually getting more individual as he became more experienced. I think that's what we're seeing in "Mirrors."

On the other hand, "Hoag" has many unexpected depths and is quite interesting.

Bill

Incidentally, I've been meaning to bring up that the Chris Isaak show uses a woman in one of those magic mirrors as a continuing story gimmick -- Chris talks freely to her (Mona) about what is going on in his life.

I don't think the club he supposedly plays at -- Bimbos 361 in SF -- is actually an active club. Last I heard they were renting out the hall for activities.

Bill


David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<3C5AB0EC.9000600@verizon.net>...
>Regarding "They Do It With Mirrors," Heinlein observed "a) whodunnits 
>are fairly easy to write and easy to sell; b) I was no threat to Raymond 
>Chandler or Rex Stout as the genre didn't interest me that much; and c) 
>Crime Does Not Pay -- Enough (the motto of the Mystery Writers of America)."
> 
>Heinlein was at least in agreement with Asimov on the last point (price 
>paid for mystery stories).
>
>I suppose the corollary of mystery's greater reader popularity is the 
>larger number of publication opportunities, the greater number of 
>writers, and the lower price of stories; but have you looked at 
>"Mirrors," Steve?
> 
>Do you think it fair to describe Heinlein's skill in writing mystery as 
>'no threat' to Chandler or Stout? If so, why? Would you say the same 
>comparing Hoag with the stories of Stout or Chandler?
I'm not Steve, but I'll weigh in here!

I read RAH's comment as having nothing to do with his skill: he's simply saying that he doesn't _care_ about mystery writing enough that Chandler or Stout need to worry about the competition!

For myself, who came rather late to enjoying mysteries, the attraction is primarily in (1) the character study of the protagonist and (2) the "atmosphere" (LA of Marlowe and Alex Delaware, NYC of Nero Wolfe, Victorian London of Holmes, medieval England of Brother Cadfael, etc). Note that many successful mystery/detective writers get stuck with a "series character", and that they usually write first person, even if it's "first person amanuensis": Chandler's Philip Marlowe, Stout's Archie Goodwin, Conan Doyle's Dr. Watson, Parker's Spenser, Kellerman's Alex Delaware. This can eventually be rather confining, to the point that the author literally (or "literarily", anyway! ;-) ) "kills off" the character. My instinct is that RAh was by nature an experimenter, and resented those sort of shackles. And he was a minimalist, not interested in long descriptive passages or "atmosphere", but instead looking for the most economical way to let the reader know that he's in very _different_ time and space ("The door dilated."). So perhaps the very things that we mystery fans adore about the genre are things that repulsed if not replled him about it. And what you don't _like_, you usually don't do well. That's how I read his comment.

That said, "Hoag" is one of my favorites... and as a "series character" I rather like Lazarus, though I think you need to make allowance for the fact that I probably read and enjoyed _Methusaleh's Children_ more than once before I read many mysteries at all, even Holmes.

George


"BPRAL22169" <bpral22169@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020201112151.09888.00000998@mb-fi.aol.com...
>>Do you think it fair to describe Heinlein's skill in writing mystery as
>>'no threat' to Chandler or Stout? If so, why? Would you say the same
>>comparing Hoag with the stories of Stout or Chandler?
>
>I do share Heinlein's assessment in regard to "Mirrors" -- it's just a gimmick
>story written in a fairly conventional way.  A teacher at UC Riverside pointed
>out that when Heinlein was first working in a field, he would hew close to the 
>conventions, gradually getting more individual as he became more experienced.
>I think that's what we're seeing in "Mirrors."
>
>On the other hand, "Hoag" has many unexpected depths and is quite interesting.
>Bill
Was the teacher at U.C. Riverside (where I attended grad school myself) Stephen Minot, by any chance? He was there when I was and I found this out by accidently stumbling on an announcement of a reading from some new book back in 1980. I was teaching there myself at the time, and I noticed an announcement about it outside the lecture hall for my own class.

--Steve B.


As I'm least familiar with "Mirrors" and a huge fan of mysteries

I decided to re read it first.

It was written in 1945, IOW fairly early in Heinlein's career and for a short story that no one ID'd as Heinlein's for a very long time, it's amazing how many bits and bobs turned up in other stories or are from other stories. More of that high grading I guess. Just for fun, I went through and listed the ones I spotted, there may be more I missed;

"Then the turntable picked up with _Hymn To The Sun_ from _Coq 
d'Or_and he started turning the rheostat slowly."
This tickled my memory until I nailed it;

'"Well, I suppose the catalogs wil list it as Vega Five. But they 
call it -" She threw back her head and vocalized; it recalled to me 
the cockcrow theme in _Le Coq d'Or'
The other music in the story is Valse Triste and Bolero. I don't want to seem like a knowitall so I'll let others mention where they crop up ( i.e, darned if I can though I'm sure they do :-)).

The hero is named Thomas Alva Edison Hill in hopes that he'll grow up like his namesake; shades of Tom and Pat in Time For The Stars (and JSB from IWFNE). Instead he's a ghost writer which brings to mind such characters as Jane, Colin and Jubal.

He sees Hazel and is struck all of a heap; like Oscar and Star. Hazel is a name that will be used again and Estelle D'Arcy's real name should ring bells; Audrey Johnson. So that's what happened to Maureen's sister!

Catsup and blood; remember the start of Sail?

The hero comes up with a 'logical' reason why Hazel dunnit (paging Rod Walker...)and leaps both to conclusions and on her (Hamilton Felix...). After some rather nasty physical violence she accepts his apology and kisses him (Phyllis).

The methods the police use to break their suspect are rather shocking by our standards; he'd not only walk free, he'd probably get a huge settlement nowadays.

OK, the story is interesting because it manages to be sort of SFy in details; the atom bomb gets mentioned and there's some science mixed in with the electrical trick and the way the lights work. Other than that, it's just average IMO. The bar setting is in lots of Heinlein's stories but that's certainly not unique to him.

If this were in an anthology of 40's detective stories and I didn't know who wrote it, I'd like it but not enough to go wild hunting down others in the series.

More later.

Jane
-- 
http://www.heinleinsociety.org

In article <3C5B1763.4040207@rogers.com>, Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com> wrote:
>Just for fun, I went through and listed the ones I spotted, there 
>may be more I missed;
>"Then the turntable picked up with _Hymn To The Sun_ from _Coq 
>d'Or_and he started turning the rheostat slowly."
>This tickled my memory until I nailed it;
>'"Well, I suppose the catalogs wil list it as Vega Five. But they 
>call it -" She threw back her head and vocalized; it recalled to me 
>the cockcrow theme in _Le Coq d'Or'
"Have Space-Suit -- Will Travel" Peewee identifying the name of the Mother Thing's Home World.
>The other music in the story is Valse Triste and Bolero. I don't 
>want to seem like a knowitall so I'll let others mention where they 
>crop up ( i.e, darned if I can though I'm sure they do :-)).
The "Valse Triste" is played in "Methusaleh's Children" while the Howard Families are on the planet of the Little People. It is used as not very subtle "subliminal" prodding by Lazarus to influence the members to chose to return to Earth.

<snip the rest>

Is anyone else going to play?

Bonne Chance !

Dr. Rufo

Pax Vobiscum


>Is anyone else going to play?
> 
>Bonne Chance !
>Dr. Rufo 
>Pax Vobiscum
This may prove to be one of the most fascinating topics yet! Hazel, get your chessboard set up.

[Denis Paradis]


George Partlow wrote:
>David Silver  wrote in message news:
>
>>Regarding "They Do It With Mirrors," Heinlein observed "a) whodunnits
>>are fairly easy to write and easy to sell; b) I was no threat to Raymond
>>Chandler or Rex Stout as the genre didn't interest me that much; and c)
>>Crime Does Not Pay -- Enough (the motto of the Mystery Writers of America)."
>> 
>>Heinlein was at least in agreement with Asimov on the last point (price
>>paid for mystery stories).
>> 
>>I suppose the corollary of mystery's greater reader popularity is the
>>larger number of publication opportunities, the greater number of 
>>writers, and the lower price of stories; but have you looked at 
>>"Mirrors," Steve?
>> 
>>Do you think it fair to describe Heinlein's skill in writing mystery as
>>'no threat' to Chandler or Stout? If so, why? Would you say the same 
>> comparing Hoag with the stories of Stout or Chandler?
>
>I'm not Steve, but I'll weigh in here!
>
Forgive me, George, for not making it clear that anyone and everyone should jump right in with their POV!
>I read RAH's comment as having nothing to do with his skill: he's
>simply saying that he doesn't _care_ about mystery writing enough that
>Chandler or Stout need to worry about the competition!
>
I think that's an appropriate assessment. Perhaps Heinlein might have explored the genre a bit further had circumstances not changed his mind. John D. MacDonald, for example, wrote in both genre, although his mix was mostly mystery, loosely defined, he wrote at least two nice science fiction and one nice fantasy novels.
>For myself, who came rather late to enjoying mysteries, the attraction
>is primarily in (1) the character study of the protagonist and (2) the
>"atmosphere" (LA of Marlowe and Alex Delaware, NYC of Nero Wolfe,
>Victorian London of Holmes, medieval England of Brother Cadfael, etc).
This 'atmosphere' -- an overal term that can often include within it, a 'mean streets' setting, is one of the attractions I enjoy greatly. Authors often write of what they know best: MacDonald often wrote of Florida; Crais writes of Hollywood, both the city and industry, apparently based on his screenwriter's background, but also having grown up in Louisiana, writes about it, having at least one novel involving an out-of-town assignment; James Lee Burke, another good writer, situates his stories in Louisiana and, lately, Texas. If I look at my paperbacks shelves (those I've kept around for one reason or another) I can look at different authors and say: Crumley -- basically the mountain and western states; Peter Corris -- Australia; Connolly -- L.A.; Ellroy -- (another L.A. sometimes one so surealistic I don't recognize it); Gores -- pretty scattered, but San Francisco-based like his adopted mentor, Dashiel Hammett; Pete Hamill -- NYC as you might expect; Sanford -- Minnesota; Patterson -- Washington, D.C. and hither and yon as Alex Cross gets about; Robert B. Parker -- Boston; Hiassen -- another Floridian along with James Hall and MacDonald. You want Chicago, "da Windy City and home of da Bears"? I present to you Eugene Izzi, whose recent death was a bit of a mystery as well; want Detroit? I give you Elmore Leonard, bearing in mind that Leonard gets around to Miami and L.A., lately, too. Maybe I should rack these writers geographically instead of alphabetically. And so forth and so on . . . I keep way too many paperbacks.

Sometimes the character studies are very fascinating: Elmore Leonard's and James Ellroy's and Michael Connelly's spring into my mind; but all of them usually come up with a compelling character or three. And not always only of the 'detective' doing the detecting.

These strong characters as so well known that parodies are written: the incomparable cartoonist Bill Watterson's incomparable Calvin comes up in his imagination with "Tracer Bullet" to go along with Sci-Fi hero "Spaceman Spiff" when he's not plotting deviltry with that tiger of his. And Tracer goes out to solve crime in his own not unexpected ways.

>Note that many successful mystery/detective writers get stuck with a
>"series character", and that they usually write first person, even if
>it's "first person amanuensis": Chandler's Philip Marlowe, Stout's
>Archie Goodwin, Conan Doyle's Dr. Watson, Parker's Spenser,
>Kellerman's Alex Delaware.  This can eventually be rather confining,
>to the point that the author literally (or "literarily", anyway! ;-) )
>"kills off" the character.  
I agree; and a good example of 'killing' [note the half quotes] will be found when we get to looking at Crais, in L.A. Requiem. Elvis Cole and Joe Pike, for novel after novel, must approach tiresome; but I suspect an alternative might be some remarkable character developments. We, who read Crais, will find out in August when the next Cole and Pike novel is due out.

John D. MacDonald, who wrote all those Travis McGee goldmines, must have toyed with the notion of wacking out McGee more than once. Instead, McGee's character ages more or less gracefully and developes more or less maturely, IMO.

>My instinct is that RAh was by nature an
>experimenter, and resented those sort of shackles. And he was a
>minimalist, not interested in long descriptive passages or
>"atmosphere", but instead looking for the most economical way to let
>the reader know that he's  in very _different_ time and space ("The
>door dilated.").  So perhaps the very things that we mystery fans
>adore about the genre are things that repulsed if not repelled him
>about it.  And what you don't _like_, you usually don't do well. 
>That's how I read his comment.
>
Heinlein was after character development, not gadget stories. One Edison Hill short story really wasn't enough to see where he might have taken his ghost writer of political autobiographies. It might have been interesting to have seen what John Riverside would have done with a second, or third, or later stories. But, instead, he sold that first juvenile he experimented with writing, apparently to the second publisher that looked at it and took a branch in life.

Both this detective story, as Bill Patterson notes, and the first juvenile, Rocket Ship Galileo, hewed closely to established formulae.

>That said, "Hoag" is one of my favorites... and as a "series
>character" I rather like Lazarus, though I think you need to make
>allowance for the fact that I probably read and enjoyed _Methusaleh's
>Children_ more than once before I read many mysteries at all, even
>Holmes.
Hoag and Lazarus, the strong character, I'll leave to another post; and hope that someone along with you, George, picks up these very interesting threads before I get to it.
-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
  "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
  --Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, (1907-88)
    Lt.(jg) USN R'td

Bill Patterson, concerning the show in "Mirrors":
>Incidentally, I've been meaning to bring up that the Chris Isaak show uses a
>woman in one of those magic mirrors as a continuing story gimmick -- Chris
>talks freely to her (Mona) about what is going on in his life.
>
>I don't think the club he supposedly plays at -- Bimbos 361 in SF -- is
>actually an active club.  Last I heard they were renting out the hall for
>activities.
'splain a little further, please, Bill. Is Isaak a character or a real person, and in what media or venue is he to be found?

About the actual tavern or club RAH noted existing with the mirrors at the intersection of Hollywood Boulevard and Gower gulch in Expanded Universe, it's a shame I was only ten or eleven years old in 1953 when we lived on Bronson Avenue, a block north of the intersection of Hollywood Boulevard and "Gower gulch" (which by then was the Hollywood Freeway, being used in its first year or so -- which made the rent very cheap), because although I remember a liquor store on the northwest corner of Bronson and Hollywood (a very short skip, maybe two doors, from the freeway), and delight to remember Reginald Denny's Hobby Shop [where the owner, a silent screen leading man, let us, all the kid in the neighborhood, fly his and our own gasoline powered model airplanes after school every day in his back lot] on the northeast corner across the freeway bridge, I cannot remember a particular bar or nightclub in the area that might have had the mirror set up. [Of course there were some bars and nightclubs up and down the street that could have -- at age ten, I wasn't yet a patron or really yet that interested in The Form Divine.]

Gower Gulch, for those who do not know, was a huge gully (medium size ravine) running from the southeast to the northwest through Hollywood until they used it for the freeways. In the 1920s, -30s, and on through the early -50s, cowboy extras in the movies and others used to regularly camp out down in its bushes, until the LAPD cleaned them out, and sometimes the LAPD left them alone. The six lane Hollywood Freeway fit nicely in it, unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on whether you had to drive out over or through the Hollywood Hills to the San Fernando Valley and its chicken farms, and later movie studios and suburbs.

We're talking about the East end of Hollywood, where the bars then began to be a little less upscale, but not too far east. Earl Rogers' [?] Moulin Rouge, with all the Hollywood autographs on the wall, was only a block or two west. The Palladium only about two or three blocks west; and Hollywood and Vine about a quarter mile.

It wasn't quite yet a mean street area, but getting there ...

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
  "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
  --Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, (1907-88)
    Lt.(jg) USN R'td

>'splain a little further, please, Bill. Is Isaak a character or a real person,
>and in what media or venue is he to be found?
Sorry for the assumptions. Chris Isaak is a singer -- I suppose he would be classified as a kind of upscale rockabilly type -- who periodically hits the charts and has done some quite memorable songs. I think his last big hit was the album "Heart Shaped World" four or five years ago. You might be able to find the CD in your local library. The video for, I think, "Wicked World" from that album was one of the sexiest music videos ever made.

Isaak has taken flyers at acting in the last several years -- he had a bit part in Silence of the Lambs (he was the head of the SWAT team) and had one of the leads in David Lynch's movie prequel to the Twin Peaks television show, "Fire Walk With Me." He played the FBI agent who disappeared -- the trigger that brought Agent Cooper to Twin Peaks in the TV show. Come to think of it, he has the same kind of look as Kyle McLaughlan -- seems to be a favorite look for Lynch.

He's got his own loosely real-life based show on Showtime -- that is, it's about a band he heads and involves Isaak's IRL band and agent -- but the conceit is a lot like the old Burns & Allen show; their TV life owes very little to real biographical incidents.

The club, Bimbos (which really does exist on lower Columbus in SF), has a magic-mirror illusion of a very beautiful naked blond women (Mona) swimming in an aquarium tank. Chris talks over his life with Mona, staying out of the imaging area. Mona is a Wise Woman.

Bill


>Was the teacher at U.C. Riverside (where I attended grad school myself)
>Stephen Minot, by any chance? 
No, it was Gary Westfahl, who has done some very insightful work on Heinlein for Extrapolations. Bill
"George Partlow" <pricerbumanto@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:e5dfe6d0.0202011211.607a86da@posting.google.com...
>David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<3C5AB0EC.9000600@verizon.net>...
>
>>Regarding "They Do It With Mirrors," Heinlein observed "a) whodunnits 
>>are fairly easy to write and easy to sell; b) I was no threat to Raymond 
>>Chandler or Rex Stout as the genre didn't interest me that much; and c) 
>>Crime Does Not Pay -- Enough (the motto of the Mystery Writers of America)."
>> 
>>Heinlein was at least in agreement with Asimov on the last point (price 
>>paid for mystery stories).
>> 
>>I suppose the corollary of mystery's greater reader popularity is the 
>>larger number of publication opportunities, the greater number of 
>>writers, and the lower price of stories; but have you looked at 
>>"Mirrors," Steve?
>> 
>>Do you think it fair to describe Heinlein's skill in writing mystery as 
>>'no threat' to Chandler or Stout? If so, why? Would you say the same 
>>comparing Hoag with the stories of Stout or Chandler?
> 
>I'm not Steve, but I'll weigh in here!
> 
>I read RAH's comment as having nothing to do with his skill: he's
>simply saying that he doesn't _care_ about mystery writing enough that
>Chandler or Stout need to worry about the competition!
> 
>For myself, who came rather late to enjoying mysteries, the attraction
>is primarily in (1) the character study of the protagonist and (2) the
>"atmosphere" (LA of Marlowe and Alex Delaware, NYC of Nero Wolfe,
>Victorian London of Holmes, medieval England of Brother Cadfael, etc).
> Note that many successful mystery/detective writers get stuck with a
>"series character", and that they usually write first person, even if
>it's "first person amanuensis": Chandler's Philip Marlowe, Stout's
>Archie Goodwin, Conan Doyle's Dr. Watson, Parker's Spenser,
>Kellerman's Alex Delaware.  This can eventually be rather confining,
>to the point that the author literally (or "literarily", anyway! ;-) )
>"kills off" the character.  My instinct is that RAh was by nature an
>experimenter, and resented those sort of shackles. And he was a
>minimalist, not interested in long descriptive passages or
>"atmosphere", but instead looking for the most economical way to let
>the reader know that he's  in very _different_ time and space ("The
>door dilated.").  So perhaps the very things that we mystery fans
>adore about the genre are things that repulsed if not replled him
>about it.  And what you don't _like_, you usually don't do well. 
>That's how I read his comment.
> 
>That said, "Hoag" is one of my favorites... and as a "series
>character" I rather like Lazarus, though I think you need to make
>allowance for the fact that I probably read and enjoyed _Methusaleh's
>Children_ more than once before I read many mysteries at all, even
>Holmes.
> 
>George
I've only just dipped into Chandler and Stout, although I've read one volume of Asimov's mysteries, so I'm no expert on them, but I agree with David that Heinlein just didn't have as much of an interest in the mystery area. I see Heinlein as basically an inheritor of the H.G. Wellsian tradition of sociologically-oriented science-fiction. Like Wells, Heinlein excelled at taking certain scientific and technological factors, extrapolating from them, and then building a plausible society on those elements. And his considerable scientific and mathematical training meant that he understood science and technology better than most writers, and even most S-F writers, and I think naturally attracted him to a venue like S-F where his own natural inclination, talents, and formal education would be major strong points. --Steve B.
"Jane Davitt" <jdavitt01@rogers.com> wrote in message news:3C5B1763.4040207@rogers.com...
>The other music in the story is Valse Triste and Bolero. I don't
>want to seem like a knowitall so I'll let others mention where they
>crop up ( i.e, darned if I can though I'm sure they do :-)).

    Jane--
"Bolero" shows up in "By His Bootstraps" when the protagonist picks up a lllist of musical selections heavy on emotional effect. (BHS is pretty high on my "least favorite" RAH list, so I don't often re-read it, but I just happened to, recently.)

--Dee


On 01 Feb 2002 23:50:03 GMT, agplusone@aol.com (David M. Silver) wrote:
>
>I think that's an appropriate assessment. Perhaps Heinlein might have explored
>the genre a bit further had circumstances not changed his mind. John D.
>MacDonald, for example, wrote in both genre, although his mix was mostly
>mystery, loosely defined, he wrote at least two nice science fiction and one
>nice fantasy novels.
I recall, many years ago, being surprised not only that JDM had ventured into the worlds of science fiction/fantasy, but also how *good* his work was in those areas. I always kind of wished for more.

>>For myself, who came rather late to enjoying mysteries, the attraction
>>is primarily in (1) the character study of the protagonist and (2) the
>>"atmosphere" (LA of Marlowe and Alex Delaware, NYC of Nero Wolfe,
>>Victorian London of Holmes, medieval England of Brother Cadfael, etc).
One of the few differences I find, with David.[1] I got a relatively early start in mysteries, due to the influence of my Mom's family, with whom we lived for many of my younger years.

<much snippage>

You're not the only one; I've boxes *full* of them around the house, in addition to all the hardbacks.

I've always enjoyed the works of Joe Gores; while I've never lived in the Bay Area, I've spent considerable time there. Friends in the area; my folks lived there for a few years, and many trips to the area in the past years when my work involved a lot of travel. (Not to mention the occasional trip to have Jim Wolf work his magic on my Z. <g>) Gores' words ring true to me.

James Lee Burke is a favorite of mine. Dave Robicheaux is not only a sympathetic and very interesting protagonist, but also someone whom I'd like to consider a friend, should I encounter that particular aspect of the World as Myth. <g> (As an aside, while I'm not a particular fan of Alec Baldwin, I thought that he rendered the character reasonably well.)

I guess I discovered Nero Wolfe somewhere before high school; likely around the time I discovered RAH (1950ish.) Wolfe is one to whom I keep returning, and while the stories obviously date themselves[2], I don't find them becoming stale.

>Sometimes the character studies are very fascinating: Elmore Leonard's and
>James Ellroy's and Michael Connelly's spring into my mind; but all of them
>usually come up with a compelling character or three. And not always only of
>the 'detective' doing the detecting. 
Connelly is another favorite of mine; I like just about everything he's done. While I enjoy Leonard, he's not quite in that category for me; I'm enthralled with a few of his books, but others are very much "take it or leave it."

Speaking of Leonard, George Clooney as a Leonard hero? Please....

>I agree; and a good example of 'killing' [note the half quotes] will be found
>when we get to looking at Crais, in L.A. Requiem. Elvis Cole and Joe Pike, for
>novel after novel, must approach tiresome; but I suspect an alternative might
>be some remarkable character developments. We, who read Crais, will find out in
>August when the next Cole and Pike novel is due out. 
I'm not wildly enamored of Elvis Cole, but I find Joe Pike to be an intensely intriguing and appealing character. (I know that Robert lurks occasionally; if he reads this, Bravo!! And, how about a story centered around Joe? If Cole gets killed off, I'd not be overly displeased, but I'd hate to think we've seen the last of Pike.)

And, it's always fun to play "spot the Heinlein reference," too.

[1] I sometimes wonder if David and I may have been separated at birth. :) Our tastes are very similar, in many ways.

[2] My understanding is that Timothy Hutton purchased the NW rights largely because he, himself is a fan. He not only wanted to do these stories himself, but also wanted the opportunity to ensure that they were done correctly. I applaud that, and personally, I think he's done it quite well. The only thing I found a bit jarring at first (and I've adjusted) was the setting in the '50s; I've always pictured Wolfe as taking place in the '30s and '40s.

I also think that they've done a creditable job with the casting, and I enjoy the somewhat "ensemble" aspect of it (if that makes any sense.)

          /mnt/brain/clue.tar.gz: No such file or directory
internet extremist at large                                       TINC
wiz {at} spamcop {dot} net              "What evil shall I do, today?"
TINLC   (If there were, you couldn't tell if I were part of it or not)

[Editor's Note: This one was on a different thread, but it seemed appropriate to place it here]

Ogden Johnson III wrote:

>[snip EMail and other changes announced]
> 
>Just a FWIW.  We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion
>of my favorite authors, RAH and JDM.  ;->
> 
>OJ III
> 
This will tickle the cockles of even a leatherhead's heart, OJ.

This morning I had a chat IM with Mrs. RAH. Somehow the topic of whether RAH read mysteries got into the conversation. Yes, she said, and he even kept one whole shelf of one writer after he pared down the library [presumably when they moved to Carmel, giving away or selling most of the 10,000 volumes]. Who was the writer I asked? I'll have to check, an old-timer who wrote real hard-boiled ones, said she. A pause of about two minutes. "John D. MacDonald. I always confuse him with Ross."

Just a FWIW. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of my favorite authors, RAH and JDM. ;->

"for a duck may be somebody's mother!"

   --
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
   Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
   Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

It's interesting that Heinlein never tried mixing the genres and producing a futuristic mystery as Asimov did with his Wendell Urth and Caves of Steel stories.I suppose one could say that he got round to it in Cat but more on that later.

Genre mixing is more common nowadays maybe; Nora Roberts (romance/suspense) for instance writes a series under the name J.D Robb. They are about a female police officer in a futuristic New York (detective and SF) and have large dollops of sex (with her incredibly good looking, slightly criminal multi billionaire husband; romance). Whether cramming so much into one book alienates or increases readership I don't know. (I like the Robb books btw, I'm just jealous of the heroine, Dallas :-))

Hoag combined detective with fantasy which, on the face of it is an unusual pairing. The first is dependent on logic and attention to details, a painstaking reconstruction of a crime, an investigation into motives, alibis and an almost inevitable uncovering of the villain. The second is set in alternate worlds where magic, not science, is the norm and the aliens are called faery.

The start of Hoag has some classic P.I details, shadowing, fingerprints, lots of focus on the husband/wife pairing. But slowly, things happen that _can't_ be explained, can't have a logical outcome. Inexorably the Randalls feel the ground crumble beneath them until all is lost of their familiar world, lost for ever. Another genre encroaches; the horror story...

Cat is perhaps a combination of mystery and SF but, despite the fact that it has some nice clichés I don't think Heinlein really made enough of the mystery angle for it to qualify. The murder happens, the list of questions to be resolved is drawn up; all good stuff...but then, nothing. So busy are Richard and Gwen in their headlong fleeing that it all gets forgotten about...until the final pages. Poirot would have pulled out his moustache in horror.

In some ways, To Sail is better. That too opens with a murder and if you ignore Maureen's life story and read just the bits set in the present it's quite classic in the details of wrongful accusation, escape from prison, identification of the group responsible...

To sum up; Heinlein didn't write great mysteries because he didn't seem interested enough in the mechanics required of such a story. Too constricting. Shame; the couple in Hoag would have been fun if they were on the tail of a more prosaic villain.

But the fragments he did write are intriguing and show that he had a good working knowledge of the genre and its conventions. Mystery's loss is SF's gain.

Jane

-- 
http://www.heinleinsociety.org

Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@rogers.com> wrote in news:3C5DED62.2010709 @rogers.com:

>It's interesting that Heinlein never tried mixing the genres and 
>producing a futuristic mystery as Asimov did with his Wendell Urth 
>and Caves of Steel stories.I suppose one could say that he got round 
>to it in Cat but more on that later.
> 
>Genre mixing is more common nowadays maybe; Nora Roberts 
>(romance/suspense) for instance writes a series under the name J.D 
>Robb. They are about a female police officer in a futuristic New 
>York (detective and SF) and have large dollops of sex (with her 
>incredibly good looking, slightly criminal multi billionaire 
>husband; romance). Whether cramming so much into one book alienates 
>or increases readership I don't know. (I like the Robb books btw, 
>I'm just jealous of the heroine, Dallas :-))

I love the Robb books and have managed to get husband hooked. However, there is a definite timeline problem in them for hard science SF fans. There is no way that the future she describes could have taken place in the time constraints. I ignore any dates that she gives and I am fine - but I do not think we will have regular interplanetary travel by 2065.

However, you will note that she moves penal facilities off Earth. The moon is a harsh mistress, anyone?

> 
>Hoag combined detective with fantasy which, on the face of it is an 
>unusual pairing. The first is dependent on logic and attention to 
>details, a painstaking reconstruction of a crime, an investigation 
>into motives, alibis and an almost inevitable uncovering of the 
>villain. The second is set in alternate worlds where magic, not 
>science, is the norm and the aliens are called faery.
>The start of Hoag has some classic P.I details, shadowing, 
>fingerprints, lots of focus on the husband/wife pairing. But slowly, 
>  things happen that _can't_ be explained, can't have a logical 
>outcome. Inexorably the Randalls feel the ground crumble beneath 
>them until all is lost of their familiar world, lost for ever. 
>Another genre encroaches; the horror story...
Hoag who? The suspense writer that I am familiar with - Tammy Hoag, doesn't have a faery collection that I know of.

>snip some discussion that was actually on topic
>
>But the fragments he did write are intriguing and show that he had a 
>   good working knowledge of the genre and its conventions.
>Mystery's loss is SF's gain.
> 
>Jane
> 
BTW - if you enjoy horror fantasy and erotic with your mystery, I HIGHLY recommend Laurell Hamilton and Tanya Huff.

-- 
-K-----
"I am Scylla, the Rock.  At least on my good days."

Kate Collins wrote:
> 
>BTW - if you enjoy horror fantasy and erotic with your mystery, I HIGHLY 
>recommend Laurell Hamilton and Tanya Huff.
> 
Read 'em all, already :-) They're lots of fun though I sometimes wish Anita would angst less, enjoy Jean Claude more and stop giving quite so much gruesome detail about people dying in nasty ways. I'm sort of a wuss about those things. I think the earlier stories are better but I'm hooked on them now.

The Huff vampire stories are great, especially as I live near Toronto and know some of the places that get mentioned.

And Hoag is just my lazy way of not writing out, 'The Unpleasant profession of Jonathan Hoag' by Robert Heinlein in full. Darn, now you made me do it!

Jane
-- 
http://www.heinleinsociety.org

>.... Matt Helms(sic), fundamentally amoral....
Expand, please.

cheers

oz, who places Hamilton in a tie with JDM just behind RAH for a good read.


I may have had a second brain fart within 24 hours. I was reaching for the name of the Mickey Spillane continuing detective character.

Bill


>Friday kills a guy on page 1. 
>
True -- and Friday is a reworking of "Gulf."

So we've got -- what, 3 out of the last 18 books?

Perhaps the original statement that prompted this question was a tad hyperbolic?

Bill


Colin wrote:

>Maybe GULF and PUPPET MASTERS were attempts at "hardboiled" stories, even
>though they're not mysteries. (Plus it's hard to evaluate GULF because it
>was part of Campbell's "trick" issue.)  But you don't see such implacable
>protagonists in other RAH stories before or after until the Late Period,
>when he had to kill somebody on page 1 just to get the story started. 
>
You might be correct, Colin. The "mystery genre" opens up in later development to, among others things, the dectective adventure, the police adventure, and spy adventure varients, changing from 'who dunnits' into 'howtodunnits' and both Gulf and Puppet Masters are these, as well as, at its beginning, Friday.

>
>In article <20020203232851.23271.00002316@mb-mq.aol.com>,
>bpral22169@aol.com (BPRAL22169) wrote:
>
>>>To sum up; Heinlein didn't write great mysteries because he didn't 
>>>seem interested enough in the mechanics required of such a story. 
>> 
>>There may be something else.  The pure puzzle mystery has some of the same
>>sterility as the Gernsbackian gadget story, so the "cozy mystery" just wouldn't
>>appeal to him.  
Chandler's influence (and Hammet's) moved mystery away from the pure puzzle mystery into a more action setting -- somewhere between, as he put it: "[a reader's] demand [for] a ground plan of Greythorpe Manor, showing the study, the gun room, the main hall and staircase and the passage to that grim room where the butler polishes the Georgian silver, tight-lipped and silent, hearing the murmur of doom" yet not so far as to require that the reader believe "the shortest distance between two points is from a blonde to a bed." [with or without a bottle of hooch].

>>He wrote one "hardboiled" detective story -- but the figures
>>that dominate that genre are morally wounded -- Philip Marlowe, for example
>--
>>or else, like Matt Helms, fundamentally amoral -- and I can't see either of
>>those appealing much to Heinlein.
>> 
>>I think there was just a poor fit between Heinlein as a writer and the mystery
>>genre.
>>Bill
Yet, as I noted in another thread, Heinlein enjoyed and kept, even after he culled his library down when moving to Carmel, MacDonald's writings. I suspect he enjoyed what MacDonald did in the last series he finally settled upon writing, the Travis McGee ones, inventing a figure who kept, despite his cynicism, galloping off to rescue fair maidens in that rusty armor, aboard the spavined steed. I suggest perhaps he enjoyed these stories because they took the genre hero in the direction he might have taken him: cf. Oscar, Colin Campbell/Richard Ames, Hartley Baldwin ...

-- 
David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
  "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
  --Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, (1907-88)
    Lt.(jg) USN R'td


majoroz@aol.com (Major oz) wrote in news:20020204134743.21842.00000049@mb-fo.aol.com:
>>.... Matt Helms(sic), fundamentally amoral....
> 
>Expand, please.
> 
>cheers
> 
>oz, who places Hamilton in a tie with JDM just behind RAH for a good read. 
> 
> 
I don't know, I might agree with describing Matt Helm as "amoral" though I think "pragmatic" fits better. And I can easily see him agreeing both L. Long and J. Harshaw about practicalities . . .

-- 
-K-----
"I am Scylla, the Rock.  At least on my good days."

On 4 Feb 2002 22:53:30 GMT, Kate Collins <krcollins@alltel.net> wrote:
>I don't know, I might agree with describing Matt Helm as "amoral" though I 
>think "pragmatic" fits better.  And I can easily see him agreeing both L. 
>Long and J. Harshaw about practicalities . . .
I'm not an expert; I outgrew Helm *many* years ago. :) I wouldn't describe him as "amoral", though; I'd consider him to be working to his own morality, which may not be the norm.

You're right, though; "pragmatic" works. <g>

          /mnt/brain/clue.tar.gz: No such file or directory
internet extremist at large                                       TINC
wiz {at} spamcop {dot} net              "What evil shall I do, today?"
TINLC   (If there were, you couldn't tell if I were part of it or not)

BPRAL22169 wrote:

>I may have had a second brain fart within 24 hours.  I was reaching for the
>name of the Mickey Spillane continuing detective character.
>Bill
> 
> 
Mike Hammer. Another one, almost in that league, was Richard Prather's Shell Scott, who was my dad's favorite escapism.

   --
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
   Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
   Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

"BPRAL22169" <bpral22169@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020204164117.22900.00001372@mb-cg.aol.com...
>I may have had a second brain fart within 24
hours.  I was reaching for the
>name of the Mickey Spillane continuing detective character.
>Bill
>
Mike Hammer?

--
Bill Dennis
http://peoriatimesobserver.com
http://billdennis.net

Jane Davitt wrote:
>It's interesting that Heinlein never tried mixing the genres and 
>producing a futuristic mystery as Asimov did with his Wendell Urth and 
>Caves of Steel stories.I suppose one could say that he got round to it 
>in Cat but more on that later.
>[snip]

>Hoag combined detective with fantasy which, on the face of it is an 
>unusual pairing. The first is dependent on logic and attention to 
>details, a painstaking reconstruction of a crime, an investigation into 
>motives, alibis and an almost inevitable uncovering of the villain. The 
>second is set in alternate worlds where magic, not science, is the norm 
>and the aliens are called faery.

>The start of Hoag has some classic P.I details, shadowing, fingerprints, 
>lots of focus on the husband/wife pairing. But slowly,  things happen 
>that _can't_ be explained, can't have a logical outcome. Inexorably the 
>Randalls feel the ground crumble beneath them until all is lost of their 
>familiar world, lost for ever. Another genre encroaches; the horror story...
So far I agree, maybe. Except I'm not quite sure that the encroaching "horror story" isn't merely a form of speculative fiction, i.e., fantasy without wholly, or mainly, benevolent imaginary creatures and physical laws. How do you differentiate? If Magic, Inc., with all those malignant beings, Lucifer himself included, and humans, is fantasy, why isn't Hoag?

Rather than stopping at genre classification, I'd look at what Heinlein turned a not too terribly complicated mystery into: a parable or illustrative fable. The commentary on the state of happiness or satisfaction of the inhabitants of Chicago, generally, even adults generally, the more than merely "mean streets" description of Chicago itself, not only Hoag's reaction to those he encounters but Cynthia's as well. Hoag, from the beginning is portrayed as a bit of an epicure, somewhat of the society gentleman, the "extra bachelor" invited by hostesses to fill in their dinners, attendee at operas, etc. Cynthia, in contrast, more average in cultural pretentions, happy with her husband, a beer and a club sandwich, a working wife and business partner with her detective husband. Hoag sees rudeness, flat or piggish eyes, skin marred by blackheads and enlarged pores, fat vicious shrill suspicious mothers, even mean, troublemaking and gutterwise little girls. Cynthia's descriptions not so vivid, but she sees unhappy adults; and she and Ted Randall, her husband, worry when they'll 'grow up' and become as unhappy as the adults they see around them.

There's also something else working here. Adults living during the years 1940-1 in the United States had a feeling of forboding: despite the isolationist and anti-war movements in the United States during those years, it was obvious the League of Nations had failed, September 1939 had seen the invasion of Poland and respective declarations of war between Germany and Italy, on the one hand, and essentially the rest of western Europe; and each month seemed to bring worse news. We who have within the last five months seen the NYC World Trade Towers terrorism got a little taste of that. Imagine what they felt. There wasn't going to be a war against ten thousand Taliban that might, as it turns out, be subdued by aerial bombardments and Afghan's own indiginous forces, along with a few thousand allied advisors. Europe was quite certain what would occur would be a return to the massive armies of the First World War; and Americans had no doubt they were correct. Another _World_ War.

The Depression, bad as it was or had been, wasn't quite so terrible by contrast. Depressions have been endured without massive death and destruction. And then there was Japan's program of Asian conquest, ongoing. The Rape of Nanking, and so on.

As "A Biographical Sketch" observes "Heinlein had been following the war news from Europe with increasing unease: the lights of democracy were going out all over Europe and Asia (to both fascism and communism, which Heinlein, regarded as equally evil)."

He had been paying attention to much more than Europe. He considered himself a Naval officer, of the regular establishment, inconveniently retired because of his 'cured' tuberculosis. He had his eyes closely watching the Pacific as well.

In November 1941, John Campbell became concerned about Heinlein finishing Beyond This Horizon so that it would be available for scheduled publication. He wrote, in Heinlein's words,

". . . insisting that I come to New York (from Hollywood) on the 1st of December, and finish the book there. I refused and gave him this as my reason ('reason,' not excuse, not a stall): 'If the Japanese start a war with us, and it looks as if they intend to, then they will do so this coming weekend and probably on a Sunday, as they have a record of surprise attacks and they certainly know our Navy's habits on weekends. They'll try to catch us with our pants down. John, if I go to New York now and that happens, I'll never finish the book; I'll report in instead--and I'll need the check for this book for uniforms and such. So I'll finish the book first--and I'll be on the train for New York on Monday the 8th. If they don't attack by Sunday, then this flurry is just a feint and I'll be able to stay in the East for several weeks, go over the MS with you, talk story, stay for Christmas, and have some fun. If war breaks out, all bets are off except that you will have the MS this coming week either way."

These words appear in a letter Heinlein wrote in 1974 to a Navy officer then researching the biography of Admiral Ernest J. King. Heinlein refers the officer to copies of his correspondence then already in the archives at UC Santa Cruz to verify that the fact that what he states he wrote was truly writen to Campbell, at the time he wrote them. He goes on to observe "The Nips followed my scenario exactly, attacking at daylight on the day I picked as the only logical one." [Unpublished Letter to Commander Thomas B. Buell, U.S. Navy, 3 Oct 1974, at pp. 40-1, ©Robert A. Heinlein. Cmdr. Buell eventually wrote the biography which was published by the Naval Institute about three years ago.]

Heinlein, as we all know from Grumbles and elsewhere reported for duty to the San Pedro Naval Station on December 8, but was refused recall to active service because of his physical condition. After various appeals, he eventually was allowed to serve the Navy as a civilian engineer at the Materials Laboratory at the Naval Air Experimental Station at Mustin Field, near Philadelphia. While awaiting his appointment as a Navy civilian employee, Heinlein finished "Waldo" while living on John Campbell's couch in NYC (the proceeds of the sale paying off a hospital bill for Leslyn's gallstone operation), and "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag," according to Gifford's RAH:ARC in April 1942. Its appearance in Unknown Worlds in October 1942 was the last of his prewar fiction.

Is it sheer coincidence that two of his major 'fantasies' involving malignant beings (or in Waldo's case, a truly malignant human being originally) were written by RAH during the period that he, frustrated at not being allowed to return as a commissioned officer and sea duty, and waiting to see whether the Navy would even employ him as a civilian? Both Waldo, which ends with a rescue, and Hoag, which ends somewhat ambiguously, certainly reflect that degree of terror that Chandler (the well-known and very successful author I quoted without identifying in my lead-off) felt mystery was ideally suited to convey.

April 1942 wasn't a particularly bright time, either. In March, President Roosevelt had ordered MacArthur to leave the Philippines and set up his headquarters in Australia, build a base from which to defend it and to retake the Philippines which, by then, Washington had apparently written off. MacA arrived in March 17, only a week after the Dutch had surrendered 20,000-odd troops in Java, removing the only military obstacle between the Imperial Japanese Army and Australia, except the Ozzies and EnZacs themselves (and most of their men were fighting in North Africa). The only bright spot, a minor event militarily, but perhaps brilliant for propaganda purposes was Dolittle's raid on Toyoko, the last week of March. Bataan fell as expected in mid-April. It wasn't until May that the battle of Coral Sea took place, but that was counterbalanced by the surrender of Corregidor the same month, with Wainwright also ordering the surrender of 30,000 U.S./Filipino forces in Mindanao without the firing of a shoot; nor was until August until the raid on Makin Island and the invasion of Guadalcanal commenced.

A frustrated and somewhat terror-ridden story perhaps emerged from Heinlein's pen in April as a result more easily than something else.

>To sum up; Heinlein didn't write great mysteries because he didn't seem 
>interested enough in the mechanics required of such a story. Too 
>constricting. Shame; the couple in Hoag would have been fun if they were 
>on the tail of a more prosaic villain.
I'm not sure Heinlein was at all concerned with getting the mechanics "right" in Hoag. Hoag is a judgment on a large segment of American society -- or, if nothing else, on Chicago society. Something's wrong here is the fable conveyed.

The "aesthetic" judgment is it's time to erase and start over. That's the solution to the mystery, I believe. Not exactly Colonel Mustard in the Conservatory with the the candlerstick, nor Mike Hammer plugging the blonde as she tries one last time to seduce him with his trusy .45.

> 
>But the fragments he did write are intriguing and show that he had a 
>good working knowledge of the genre and its conventions.
I agree. I'm not sure he felt mystery had established conventions. Chandler, for example, didn't write his list until after the war in "The Simple Art of Murder," and what had been written before them as 'rules' would amuse all of us tremendously (and lengthen this post too much), so I'll omit them.

>Mystery's loss is SF's gain.
> 
Mystery already had Hammett and Chandler and James Cain and others. It was doing quite well without him. Heinlein's leadership and example was still needed by speculative fiction.
   --
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
   Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
   Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

Jane Davitt wrote:

[snip]

> 
>In some ways, To Sail is better. That too opens with a murder and if you 
>ignore Maureen's life story and read just the bits set in the present 
>it's quite classic in the details of wrongful accusation, escape from 
>prison, identification of the group responsible...
> 
The title "To Sail Beyond the Sunset" is from Tennyson's "Ulysses," a fairly well known Victorian work.

The introduction to Hoag is a quotation identified only as from a work of Algernon Charles Swinburne (1837-1909), a younger Victorian, pre-Rafaelite poet. I'm informed by my anthology collections that Swinburne's works are contained in 20 volumes, but none of my anthologies and no internet site I could find contains this quoted passage:

--- the end is not well.
 From too much love of living.
 From hope and fear set free.
We thank with brief thanksgiving.
Whatever gods may be
That no life lives forever:
That dead men rise up never:
That even the weariest river
Winds somewhere safe to sea.
Just as the title in To Sail bears a relationship to the novel, this quotation bears one; but is anyone able to identify it precisely? [and perhaps have access to the rest of the poem?]

   --
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
   Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
   Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

David handed us the following:
> --- the end is not well.
>From too much love of living.
>From hope and fear set free.
>We thank with brief thanksgiving.
>Whatever gods may be
>That no life lives forever:
>That dead men rise up never:
>That even the weariest river
>Winds somewhere safe to sea.

>Just as the title in To Sail bears a relationship to the novel, this
>quotation bears one; but is anyone able to identify it precisely? [and
>perhaps have access to the rest of the poem?]
At our service David. The poem is "The Garden of Persephone" by A.C.Swinburne, 1866. This is another of those often misquoted poems which is likely why you could not find it. The portion the is most quoted is the eleventh stanza. Complete work follows:
The Garden of Persephone

Here, where the world is quiet;
     Here, where all trouble seems
Dead winds' and spent waves' riot
     In doubtful dreams of dreams;
I watch the green field growing
For reaping folk and sowing,
For harvest-time and mowing,
     A sleepy world of streams.

I am tired of tears and laughter,
     And men that laugh and weep,
Of what may came hereafter
     For men that sow to reap:
I am weary of days and hours,
Blown buds of barren flowers,
Desires and dreams and powers
     And everything but sleep.

Here life has death for neighbour,
     And far from eye or ear
Wan waves and wet winds labour,
     Weak ships and spirits steer;
They drive adrift, and whither
They wot not who make thither;
But no such winds blow hither,
     And no such things grow here.

No growth of moor or coppice,
     No heather-flower or vine
But bloomless buds of poppies,
     Green grapes of Proserpine.
Pale beds of blowing rushes
Where no leaf blooms or blushes
Save this whereout she crushes
     For dead men deadly wine.

Pale, without name or number,
     In fruitless fields of corn,
They bow themselves and slumber
     All night till light is born;
And like a soul belated,
In hell and heaven unmated,
By cloud and mist abated
     Comes out of darkness, morn.

Though one were strong as seven,
     He too with death shall dwell,
Nor wake with wings in heaven,
     Nor weep for pains in hell;
Though one were fair as roses,
His beauty clouds and closes;
And well though love reposes,
     In the end, it is not well.

Pale, beyond porch and portal,
     Crowned with calm leaves, she stands
Who gathers all things mortal
     With cold immortal hands;
Her languid lips are sweeter
Than love's who fears to greet her
To men that mix and meet her
     From many times and lands.

She waits for each and other,
     She waits for all men born;
Forgets the earth her mother,
     The life of fruits and corn;
And spring and seed and swallow
Take wing for her and follow
Where summer song rings hollow
     And flowers are put to scorn.

There go the loves that wither,
     The old loves with wearier wings;
And all dead years draw thither,
     And all disastrous things;
Dead dreams of days forsaken,
Blind buds that snows have shaken,
Wild leaves that winds have taken,
     Red strays of ruined springs.

We are not sure of sorrow,
     And joy was never sure;
Today will die tomorrow;
     Time stoops to no man's lure;
And love, grown faint and fretful,
With lips but half regretful
Sighs, and with eyes forgetful
     Weeps that no loves endure.

From too much love of living,
     From hope and fear set free,
We thank with brief thanksgiving
     Whatever gods may be
That no man lives for ever;
That dead men rise up never;
That even the weariest river
     Winds somewhere safe to sea.

Then star nor sun shall waken,
     Nor any change of light;
Nor sound of waters shaken,
     Nor any sound or sight;
Nor wintry nor vernal,
Nor days, nor things diurnal;
Only the sleep eternal
     In an eternal night.
--
Steve
"Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book
publications." - Fran Lebowitz
eegle1@exis.net
webmaster@mnsdesigns.com
http://www.mnsdesigns.com/

jump101 wrote:
>David handed us the following:
> 
[snip]
> 
>At our service David.  The poem is "The Garden of Persephone" by
>A.C.Swinburne, 1866.  This is another of those often misquoted poems which
>is likely why you could not find it.  The portion the is most quoted is the
>eleventh stanza.  Complete work follows:
> 
>The Garden of Persephone
> 
>[snip from beginning to last line of stanza six]
>     [In] ... the end, it is not well.
>[snip stanzas seven through ten]
> 
>From too much love of living,
>     From hope and fear set free,
>We thank with brief thanksgiving
>      Whatever gods may be
>That no man lives for ever;
>That dead men rise up never;
>That even the weariest river
>     Winds somewhere safe to sea.
>
 [snip twelfth stanza]
Yes, I do have it: inter alia at pp. 1158-9, Oxford Anthology of English Poetry (2d printing 1965).

I wonder why, if for any reason other than the obvious commentary on the story, Heinlein took lines from two stanzas and combined them? That's unusual practice.

Thank you very much, Steve.

   --
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
   Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
   Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)

Snipped:
>I wonder why, if for any reason other than the obvious commentary on the
>story, Heinlein took lines from two stanzas and combined them? That's
>unusual practice.
That was a question I was asking myself as well. My first thought was that perhaps he had memorized it at one time and that he merely misquoted it, but I doubt that is the case.

You are very welcome.

--
Steve
"Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book
publications." - Fran Lebowitz
eegle1@exis.net
webmaster@mnsdesigns.com
http://www.mnsdesigns.com/

David Silver wrote:
>How do you differentiate? If Magic, Inc., with all those malignant 
>beings, Lucifer himself included, and humans, is fantasy, why isn't Hoag?
Well it is fantasy but fantasy does touch on horror. It's very difficult to put walls between genres; the best you can do in the way of classification is to assign a weight to each element in a book and slot it onto the shelf according to which seems to be heaviest. Which will be a subjective rather than objective decision and is one reason why such labels are artificial and of limited use. IMO.

> 
>Rather than stopping at genre classification, I'd look at what Heinlein 
>turned a not too terribly complicated mystery into: a parable or 
>illustrative fable. big snip
>A frustrated and somewhat terror-ridden story perhaps emerged from 
>Heinlein's pen in April as a result more easily than something else.
Interesting point. I've always said that the publication date and the world events at the time are important elements in assessing a story. Unless the writer was a hermit on an island with no phone, TV or newspapers...

>>But the fragments he did write are intriguing and show that he had a 
>>good working knowledge of the genre and its conventions.
> 
> 
> 
>I agree. I'm not sure he felt mystery had established conventions. 
>Chandler, for example, didn't write his list until after the war in "The 
>Simple Art of Murder," and what had been written before them as 'rules' 
>would amuse all of us tremendously (and lengthen this post too much), so 
>I'll omit them.
I've read one such list....and it was noted that Dame Agatha broke most of the rules :-) There are rules though and there are for SF; Heinlein himself wrote about some. Not calling Martins 'Smith' springs to mind :-)). I see mysteries as being slightly more limiting than SF back then; it's a whole new ball game nowadays.

Jane

-- 
http://www.heinleinsociety.org

>here are rules though and there are for SF; 
The people who make the art tend to rely more on their "sense" of the subject matter than on formal rules -- when you get overt rules, that's generally a sign that the genre is no longer organically alive; it's become a historical canon.

Bill


On 04 Feb 2002 22:19:42 GMT, agplusone@aol.com (David M. Silver) wrote:
>
>Yet, as I noted in another thread, Heinlein enjoyed and kept, even after he
>culled his library down when moving to Carmel, MacDonald's writings. I suspect
>he enjoyed what MacDonald did in the last series he finally settled upon
>writing, the Travis McGee ones, inventing a figure who kept, despite his
>cynicism, galloping off to rescue fair maidens in that rusty armor, aboard the
>spavined steed. I suggest perhaps he enjoyed these stories because they took
>the genre hero in the direction he might have taken him: cf. Oscar, Colin
>Campbell/Richard Ames, Hartley Baldwin ... 
Ok...does that make Gay Deceiver the functional equivalent of Miss (?) Agnes? or of the Busted Flush?

ck
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)

On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 23:28:37 GMT, David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
>BPRAL22169 wrote:
>
>>I may have had a second brain fart within 24 hours.  I was reaching for the
>>name of the Mickey Spillane continuing detective character.
>>Bill
>> 
>> 
>
>Mike Hammer. Another one, almost in that league, was Richard Prather's 
>Shell Scott, who was my dad's favorite escapism.
>
>
Shell Scott, of the white caterpillar eyebrows....

At least no one has brought up the "baens" of the early 70s genre, the Executioner and The Destroyer....

ck
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)

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AGplusone: watcha got him doin', Ginny, writing for real?

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jump101st:

AGplusone: Sure is ... Ginny meet Steve: Steve, Ginny

jump101st: Hello Ginny.

SAcademy: I know. I suggested that he do a novel and he's doing it!

AGplusone: Steve's not all bad: jumped out of perfectly good airplanes once when he was young.

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jump101st: Jim? A novel? There's a scary concept.

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fgherman: About 250 pages ;-)

AGplusone: Where's Virginia Beach in Virginia?

jump101st: I jumped out of a good airplane last summer. It's not the same as it was in '72.

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fgherman: not yet

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AGplusone: Good for you. Me, gave this up the same year I gave up riding motorcycles, dating actresses, and picking fights in bars -- T. McGee

jump101st: In my day, you fell slowly under one. Now you fly them.

SAcademy: Boy, David you were really a heller, weren't you?

AGplusone: [ actually did date two actresses before they made it. Karen Black was a nice girl.]

AGplusone: Yes. Not exactly your father's T-10 are they?

Paradis402: Confession time?

AGplusone: sure, why not?

Paradis402: :-)

jump101st: I had lunch with Nichelle Nichols once. Does that count?

jump101st: :-)

Paradis402: Oh Yes!

AGplusone: She was a nice girl after I dated her too. Beat me badly in the bowling game we had on that date.

jump101st: You took her bowling??

AGplusone: Yes. We were eighteen.

AGplusone: Double date.

jump101st: OIC... that explains it.

AGplusone: Beautiful eyes!

SAcademy: Denis, are you that pale blue?

Paradis402: Paradis402 eyes of blue?

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Paradis402: You are pale blue on my screen Ginny. We match. We should get on the ice.

AGplusone: Lunch with Nichelle Nichols definitely counts

jump101st: Nice eyes is NOT all the she had either. ;-)

SAcademy: Denis, I am too creaky to skate any more.

Paradis402: Yes Steve. Ginny, you just don't trust me on skates.

SAcademy: That is right. I trust no one on skates.

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AGplusone: [just checked EMail ... ]

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AGplusone: I remember that cartoon .... Onus, the penquin ...

SAcademy: Adelies. Bill found them for me.

AGplusone: Ever been down to Capistrano?

SAcademy: Yes.

AGplusone: they still get a few ...

SAcademy: Swallows don't go there anymore.

jump101st: There were a PITR in WA.

jump101st: They were... rather.

AGplusone: I think the Franciscans smuggle one or two in every year to try to reestablish them

SAcademy: I was telling Denis about the penguins.

AGplusone: but they may have given it up

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AGplusone: 'bout time to start?

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SAcademy: Back to ddavitt.

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SAcademy: Good evening.

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Paradis402: Hi Alan.

AGplusone: Welcome everyone. Tonight is *mystery" theatre ..... ....

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SAcademy: Hello, Jim

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jump101st: Hi Jim.

NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening all.

Paradis402: Is Gwen coming? Hi Jim.

NuclearWasteUSN: Refresh my memory, Paradis402?

AGplusone: Why do you 'spose Heinlein didn't mention Hoag as a mystery when he talked about writing Mirrors, anyone?

NuclearWasteUSN: (and Hello, :-)

Paradis402: Grewn fro Cat Who Walks....

AGplusone: Denis=Paradis

NuclearWasteUSN: Thanks

Paradis402: Gwen:-)

AGplusone: what I'm getting at is: where was Hoag published originally?

SAcademy: Gwen=Hazel?

SAcademy: 1942 I think.

Paradis402: I think so. Gwen Hardisty

AGplusone: True, but it was in Unknown Worlds ... did that mag survive past the war?

Paradis402: Where was Hoag published David? New York?

AGplusone: looking

SAcademy: Paper shortaage shut it down.

AGplusone: And the collection in which it later appeared wasn't published until '69

AGplusone: Were all the psuedonyms still not known in '47?

SAcademy: Likely not. Although it wasn't a closely kept secret.

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jump101st: My copy is from 1959... Ace in NY.

LadyS122: hi... do I need to adjust my text?

SAcademy: Nope, it's okay.

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello. :-)

AGplusone: I'm wondering, since Riverside was different than York, the Mirrors psued. whether there was some onus between mystery and sci-fi writers, whether editors felt one couldn't write others.

SAcademy: Jim, have you seen the smileys that move?

AGplusone: Hi, Lady ...

NuclearWasteUSN: No, not yet. I have been pretty much burried except for a short respite when Steve stopped by last month.

NuclearWasteUSN: The advantage to living way up North, lots of writing time during the Winter.

jump101st:

AGplusone: i.e., Ginny, whether the editor of Popular Detective had any connection at all with the sci-fi people?

NuclearWasteUSN: Hasn't that always been the case? Pigeon-holing that is. If you write A, you can't write B...

AGplusone: Whether the editor knew he was dealing with the author he was really dealing with?

SAcademy: Not that i k now of. R. decided he didn't like writing straight mysteries, so he didn't do any more.

AGplusone: Felt straight ones were confining? How: formula or preventing cross-genre stories?

AGplusone: I don't know whether weird thriller tales were even considered mysteries by editors then ... and I'm curious

SAcademy: He wanted to do the definitive story in each sub-genre.

ddavitt has entered the room.

AGplusone: wb Jane

ddavitt: Grr..computers!

SAcademy: Time travel, sword and sorcery, etc.

ddavitt: Sorry; did you all get any IM's from me?

AGplusone: so each was strictly that, a water test ...

NuclearWasteUSN: Not me

ddavitt: I got booted and couldn't get in.

jump101st: Nor I.

SAcademy: No.

ddavitt: Oh wel, I'm here now.

Paradis402: No.:'(

AGplusone: [nor I]

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Dave Wright said AIM was a little flakey earlier

ddavitt: It said I needed I.E to get in! cheek.

BPRAL22169: Hi, all -- I wanted to check the last few posts on AFH before signing on.

ddavitt: Hi Bill

AGplusone: so when he submitted, did he say to the editors, I'm from Sci-fi, or did he send the stories in blind so to speak, or did you know, Ginny?

jump101st: Greetings Bill.

BPRAL22169: Yo

McKevin0 has entered the room.

Paradis402: Hi Bill

AGplusone: Hi, McKevin

McKevin0: Hello

BPRAL22169: Hi, Denis.

SAcademy: He sent t=stories to Lurton who marketed them

BPRAL22169: That would have been 1946 or so -- he wasn't from sf at that point. He was starting over

AGplusone: Okay, then what Lurton did was whatever was necessary ...

AGplusone: Any possibilty there was ever any other Edison Hill tale?

SAcademy: Yes.

OtherP1ans has entered the room.

SAcademy: No more stories of that genre.

BPRAL22169: We have Other Plans...

AGplusone: Hi, Plans ... welcome.

OtherP1ans: Hello

ddavitt: Hi there.

ddavitt: Lots of people here tonight...

AGplusone: Okay, sorry to ask the questions, but I was trying to clear something up in my mind.

SAcademy: Any more questions, David?

AGplusone: When Hoag was published, at first, Unknown Worlds was sort of a Weird Tales type magazine ...

reclusekrc has entered the room.

AGplusone: did mystery writers submit tales to it, or does anyone know?

ddavitt: Hi Kate glad you could make it.

BPRAL22169: It's curious -- "Hoag" was one of the last things he wrote before the War and it's a detective story in which the detectives find out a lot of stuff -- but not the job they were hired for.

SAcademy: I think Hoag was published in 1942

BPRAL22169: Oh, sure, Anthony Boucher was in it as H.H. Holmes.

AGplusone: okay

reclusekrc: hi - I'm a newbie to this sort of thing so I will sit quiet - for a while

BPRAL22169: There were quite a number of mostly American mystery writers.

jump101st: Yes, it was Ginny.

AGplusone: "krc" is Kate?

reclusekrc: reclusekrc

AGplusone: welcome, Kate ... yes.

SAcademy: Thanks, jump.

jump101st: Welcome :-)

AGplusone: What's the appeal about mystery stories that makes them attractive ... the puzzle, or the terror ... or, today, is it different for us?

SageMerlin: solving the problem

ddavitt: Morality tales; comforting as villainy always pays the price

NuclearWasteUSN: That is more Jane's field

ddavitt: :-)

ddavitt: I dunno; I've given up trying to guess whodunnit.

AGplusone: Reason I ask is: are they nothing more than 'gadget tales'?

SageMerlin: mcguffins

ddavitt: It's a battle of wits

AGplusone: sometimes a pyschological battle?

SAcademy: No, there were some really good mysteries in the 30's. S. S. Van Dine.

ddavitt: Definitely, if not always

reclusekrc: not for me - I am one of those horrid people who read the last section of a story first. I read for the people - regardless of the type of story - who do I want to visit in my head.

ddavitt: Very exciting too, especially the end when there's always a confrontation.

SAcademy: Followed by the rough tough detective school.

AGplusone: And, about Hoag, is there something that is particularly disconcerting about it?

ddavitt: You read the end of a mystery first?!

BPRAL22169: And the cozy mystery before those.

reclusekrc: yep - makes husband crazy

AGplusone: What tale, for example, does Hoag remind everyone of?

ddavitt: I'm a cozy; Mike hammer type doesn't appeal

ddavitt: Give up?

BPRAL22169: I like the Brits, particularly Dorothy Sayers. Except for Raymond Chandler, the Americans didn't much appeal to me.

AGplusone: [that's cause blonde broads obviously don't appeal to you Jane]

ddavitt: I like both styles

SAcademy: Oh, yes, the one aabout Roger something. Agatha Christie I think

reclusekrc: see - I see hoag as more horror than mystery.

ddavitt: I am one:-)

SAcademy: Roger Ackroyd.

BPRAL22169: Ackroyd.

ddavitt: Yes; it crosses over into horror/fantasy very soon

AGplusone: There are two archtypal tales I'm thinking about

BPRAL22169: Agatha Christie?

ddavitt: Poe?

AGplusone: regarding the ending in Hoag

jump101st: Ellery Queen?

AGplusone: no, think Bible

reclusekrc: yeah, kinda Poe - not Queen!

BPRAL22169: The bit about not rolling down the window reminds me of Lot's wife

AGplusone: yes!

SAcademy: E. A. Poe, too.

ddavitt: don't look back...

BPRAL22169: But it also reminds me of Cabell's end of Figures of Earth.

AGplusone: And the other ...

AGplusone: Adam and Eve leaving Eden?

Paradis402: Eeek!

BPRAL22169: Yes -- after God leaves them.

SAcademy: A Cask of Amontillado.

ddavitt: Hmm....they lost their innocence certainly

ddavitt: And gained dangerous knowledge

AGplusone: so, maybe the reason they're still frightened when they get to the beach in Florida, is they looked back ...

ddavitt: They wound down the window and saw the fog

AGplusone: [and gained dangerous knowledge]

ddavitt: Never quite got that; was it temporaray as erasures were made?

AGplusone: End of Sodom not in brimestone, but in 'fog' ... the 'fog of war' perhaps.

SAcademy: Not to mention the mushroom cloud.

BPRAL22169: In Figures of Earth Manuel opens a window in his study and sees the fog -- while wife and child are still visible in the window pane.

reclusekrc: fog of mystery

ddavitt: Really?

AGplusone: Uh-huh ... but that's ex post facto ...

ddavitt: That's interesting

ddavitt: When was that published?

BPRAL22169: FOE? 1922, I think.

AGplusone: '42 for Hoag ....

BPRAL22169: The basic idea for the story may have been derived from Cabell's next book, The Silver Stallion.

ddavitt: It's interesting that H brought in the P.I's and got at the secret that way

ddavitt: He could have done it other ways

ddavitt: not involving the Randalls

jump101st: 1921 BP.

BPRAL22169: There's a segment in there where one of Manuel's knights gets adopted into a pantheon and spends his time playing at world-making until the older gods say stop playing at childish things.

ddavitt: Maybe the juxtaposition of down to earth and surreal appealed to him?

BPRAL22169: Ah, but a detective'sjob is to uncover hidden knowledge. It's thematic for the story. A fraught device.

AGplusone: Isn't it also very interesting that the Randall couple are the only ones still having a great deal of fun ... perhaps the reason Hoag saves them?

ddavitt: How did he pick them?

ddavitt: In his alter ego state?

ddavitt: How would the oblivious Hoag know that though?

AGplusone: Maybe his god, art critic stage knew who they were ... the 'upright' couple, like the angels knew Lot

ddavitt: They're an nice couple. Similar to the ones in let there Be Light

AGplusone: just as the art critic knew Potiphar

BPRAL22169: Stock characters in 30's pulp tec fiction.

AGplusone: as a Son of the Bird

BPRAL22169: Made it into film as Nick and Nora Charles.

ddavitt: The Thin Man?

AGplusone: And why Potiphar as a name?

ddavitt: GMTA

AGplusone: or Boston Blackie and wife .... etc., etc.

ddavitt: What does it mean?

BPRAL22169: Potiphar was the Egyptian master of Joseph the slave, wasn't he?

ddavitt: Joseph?

AGplusone: yes

ddavitt: Hmm

BPRAL22169: After his brothers had sold him into slavery.

AGplusone: the master of the wife Joseph seduces

ddavitt: poor Donny

ddavitt: That doesn't seem to fit

AGplusone: Is the business about extracting the soul related somehow to Lot's daughters being used to satisfy the mob?

BPRAL22169: IIRC the biblical story, Potiphar has Joseph thrown into prison -- where his dream-interpreting it noticed and he is thereafter elevated.

ddavitt: hang on; potiphar is in year of the jackpot?

AGplusone: That TOO

BPRAL22169: Slusser, I think, pointed out that there is a lot of failing in order to succeed in Heinlein.

SAcademy: Who is in the running?

SAcademy: Orson Scott Card?

BPRAL22169: I think in Jackpot, Potiphar is just the man in his culture; in Hoag the name might be more significant.

BPRAL22169: Running for what?

SAcademy: To succeed Heinlein?

AGplusone: And in Jackpot, despite winning Potiphar loses the battle, because the world ends ... another erasure?

BPRAL22169: I don't think there is any succession -- no candidates I know of.

LadyS122 has left the room.

ddavitt: Soul extraction is also just a genre cliche; they're holding his wife hostage so he'll drop the investigation

reclusekrc: none worth discussing

Paradis402: Jubal Harshaw

ddavitt: They're just doing it in a supernatural way

ddavitt: A scary way too

reclusekrc: confused now - what about Jubal?

AGplusone: And where, exactly, does Hoag come from ... possibly They?

BPRAL22169: The horror or discomfort of the story is that nothing it what it appears to be -- while all the time being right there in front of your face.

Paradis402: Successor to Heinlein in another dimension.

ddavitt: Mirrors..that was spooky.

AGplusone: They Do It With Mirrors, Jane.

ddavitt: doors into other diemnsions a la Alice

ddavitt: dimensions

Paradis402: Yes.

ddavitt: Heh, yes.

BPRAL22169: Metaphor for initiates -- all around and visible but hidden.

AGplusone: :-)

mkeith54: or doors into your soul... mike

AGplusone: thought I remembered Mike, wb

mkeith54: tks

ddavitt: What you see in one is not what people see when they look at you...

ddavitt: Disconcerting

NuclearWasteUSN: Sorry folks, I have to run. Will be here Saturday.

AGplusone: wasn't there also a bit of the genie in the bottle in the release of the soul back into Cynthia

reclusekrc: mirror = looking glass

ddavitt: Night Jim

NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.

AGplusone: g'night, Jim

McKevin0: been away - RAH - Sui generis

ddavitt: Scrying maybe?

AGplusone: define 'scrying' please

reclusekrc: a metaphor that has been used a lot - scrying bowl with water, etc

ddavitt: Foreseeing..predicting?

reclusekrc: farseeing, as well

BPRAL22169: Oh, scrying is very good. I had forgotten entirely about magic mirrors.

reclusekrc: to see what is happening elsewhere/elsewhen

AGplusone: Anyone do an analysis of the names used in Hoag ...?

AGplusone: lots of 'bury' names ....

ddavitt: cynthia and Edward is it?

SAcademy: Falling asleep now. Sorry. Have to go. Nite all

SAcademy has left the room.

ddavitt: Night Ginny

AGplusone: night Ginny

reclusekrc: night

ddavitt: teddy..

AGplusone: And did you notice 'briteyes' again?

ddavitt: Missed that!

AGplusone: From Project Moonbase ...

AGplusone: explanation: a character in the Project Moonbase script is Major Briteyes ...

AGplusone: the lady commanding!

BPRAL22169: Cynthia is a moon-goddess

AGplusone: Ah, hah!

ddavitt: Really?

BPRAL22169: I believe that's right.

AGplusone: And she's "Briteyes" to Teddy.

AGplusone: But what do it mean?

AGplusone: Moonbase is another first flight to the moon story

ddavitt: Does it have to? Does Stranger cast too much of a shadow?:-)

AGplusone: Well, he's working toward it ... names and all.

AGplusone: I think Cat is a rewrite of Hoag.

ddavitt: Names certainly significant in Mirrors

Paradis402: Really?

ddavitt: Audrey johnson?

AGplusone: Yes ...

ddavitt: Significant in that Heinlein would reuse them

ddavitt: How no one picked up on that story being him for so long is incredible

AGplusone: look how it starts and how he leave Campbell in Cat ... dying, in a 50% failure mode

ddavitt: Full of clues

ddavitt: Cat was a mess when it came to the detective story

BPRAL22169: Had to go look it up. Cynthus is the mountain on which Artemis was born, so Cynthia = Artemis, virgin huntress moon goddess -- and moon gods and goddesses are always associated with esoteric knowledge.

ddavitt: Gwen confessed! What a cop out

AGplusone: Gwen is the knowing one in Cat ...

Paradis402: Gwen is Ginny.

ddavitt: Cat doesn't count as a mystery after chapter2 or 3

AGplusone: How did Richard Ames/Colin Campbell roll down the window in Cat?

ddavitt: They don't interview suspects, check alibis...not a railway timetable in sight

markjmills has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: I don't quite see the relation between Cat and Hoag. Could someone point me in the right direction?

BPRAL22169: I do see the relationship to All You Zombies...

ddavitt: Gwen = Hazel was one way

Paradis402: I'm lost. Hi Mark

ddavitt: Proved to him that there are parallel universes

AGplusone: Unknown mysterious client (Tolliver) visits with mysterious request not fully stated ... is killed first ...

Paradis402: Gwen-Hazel-Ginny allee samee

AGplusone: and Cynthia

markjmills: Good evening, all -- sorry I'm so late, new computer with fresh AOL dl. I'll try to catch up....

ddavitt: Denis, I think AG is saying that like Randalls Colin learns disconcerting truth about what had been a stable universe.

AGplusone: Hi, Mark, I'll send you a log ... EMail addy, please?

ddavitt: Hi mark

reclusekrc: hello

BPRAL22169: That part I see -- so thematic relationship, not plot or story line.

BPRAL22169: Of course, that's equally true of Job, isn't it?

ddavitt: Suddenly he's nearly shot, kicked out of flat and on the run

Paradis402: Yes.

reclusekrc: very

ddavitt: Yes; boring life then wham bam it hits you.

BPRAL22169: And of NOTB.

ddavitt: And life is never quite the same again

ddavitt: Just like

reclusekrc: and yet - if you don't like the game change it. Look in the mirror

markjmills has left the room.

ddavitt: But all stories start with the exciting bit I suppose

markjmills has entered the room.

ddavitt: Certainly can do that in cat; just get out the eraser

BPRAL22169: Depends on what you mean by "exciting."

BPRAL22169: I'm still thinking about all the time loops in Cat.

BPRAL22169: Very complicated.

ddavitt: Change the past, delete that embarrassing incident in the past; no problem

ddavitt: I cannot ever read cat and feel i get it

BPRAL22169: Except that you don't delete it -- you just start a new track.

reclusekrc: a paradox can be paradoctored

Paradis402: Mystery messages in Cat.

AGplusone: just pour a little paint thinner on it ...

ddavitt: I've tried but it still doesn't make sense

ddavitt: Either h was being very clever or I'm very dim.

ddavitt: Or both.

BPRAL22169: Part of the problem is that up to Cat his theory was multiple parallel and diverging time lines through multiple dimensions.

jump101st: I'm with you on that one Jane.

ddavitt: Good, it's not just me then :-)

BPRAL22169: In Cat he introduces some of the paradoxes of a fixed-immutable single-strand timeline.

reclusekrc: not necessarily diverging time lines

jump101st: Nope. :-\

ddavitt: Bill, it's way too late for me to get my head round that

ddavitt: I just know he cheated

ddavitt: And he has to kill gwen now

ddavitt: But he doesn't

BPRAL22169: Fortunately, I don't have to write a study on it yet, so I have some time to think about it.

reclusekrc: all space in here all time is now . . .666

reclusekrc: okay - I'm talking to myself

ddavitt: I defy anyone to answer who the guy at the table was, why Gwen killed him and all the rest of it

BPRAL22169: That bit about killing Gwen is the Schroedinger's Cat/Lady and the Tiger bit.

ddavitt: Multi person solipsism Kate:-)

ddavitt: We're all talking to our tummy buttons

AGplusone: Hmmm ... hitting the hour, suggest a five minute break?

Paradis402: Yes.

AGplusone: Then Jane can throw out a question?

reclusekrc: alive or dead Schroedinger's Cat is pissed.

mkeith54: I always felt Cat was to be the middle of something a lot larger and I got cheated in some way

ddavitt: we're all talking too fast; it scrolls up and I miss comments

BPRAL22169: A dead pissed off cat is easier to ...er... live with.

ddavitt: Just seen yours about not divergent

AGplusone: Okay, informal break ... startup at 5 past the hour. anyone else need a log to catch up, speak up now ....

ddavitt: I can't type and look at screen at same time so i miss bits

AGplusone: Otherwise I'm going to water my Cat

BPRAL22169: Thre's a lot of *stuff* going on in Cat.

Paradis402: Cat never died. Nor did Pixel.

ddavitt: OK, break it is.

jump101st:

AGplusone: I just had an evil thought ...

ddavitt: ga

AGplusone: Naw, after the break ...

ddavitt: While we're on a break, did my money order arrive AG?

AGplusone: Yes, it has.

ddavitt: Good!

BPRAL22169: The Panshin thread on AFH is over 400 posts! Sheesh!

ddavitt: How's THJ going Bill? Is it at the publishers?

BPRAL22169: (I just used the break to go check)

AGplusone: Yeah .... #@!&

ddavitt: Really? You don't notice as you go along.

BPRAL22169: With any luck at all, it will go to the printer's tomorrow.

AGplusone: waste of time ... largely ...

ddavitt: The journal? that's a bit unkind:-)

BPRAL22169: I agree.

BPRAL22169: I always agree just after finishing one.

ddavitt: Kate, do you ever post to the sff groups?

AGplusone: But begrudgingly he said: I like the guy's writing style. Does flow nicely.

ddavitt: Two heinlein and one Buffy group there.

BPRAL22169: Wormtongue

ddavitt: Lower volume, higher quality.

ddavitt: I haven't read the next installment yet

ddavitt: deliberate mistake my ...

ddavitt: If it's there, someone would've noticed by now.

AGplusone: That was a very nice question you asked Jane ... the one that led to the handout.

BPRAL22169: Actually, his sf is not bad -- nothing wonderful IMO, but a good read.

BPRAL22169: Kind of like Keith Laumer.

ddavitt: And posting it guarantees it; the net is a bunch of nitpickers par excellence

jump101st: Panshin puts my knickers in a knot. :-(

BPRAL22169: His Villiers always reminds me of Retief.

ddavitt: Yes; funny he can quote from a lost document at length

ddavitt: But I don't want to hand out my home addie

BPRAL22169: Well -- If I got a letter from Northrup Frye, I'd have the good parts in MY wallet!

AGplusone: If he'd just un-obsess we could actually talk the guy into writing a better HiD (in my dreams)

ddavitt: I've never read his fiction, never come across it

jump101st: You saw my post regarding that, Jane?

AGplusone: I'd have it framed on the wall.

ddavitt: Yes; too much baggage.

ddavitt: Yes i did!

ddavitt: I don't like him feeling picked on...but he isn't in rasfw; why come to afh?

ddavitt: He knows what will happen...

ddavitt: He'll start off fine and annoy people in a really short space of time

AGplusone: Actually if you go back about four years on Google, you'll see they butchered him when he showed up on rasfw

jump101st: It didn't take too long for me to get annoyed I and I just got here.

ddavitt: He has lots of defenders now who think we pick on him

SageMerlin: Well, if annoyed is what you want....

AGplusone: He learned a lot from that experience .... became ingratiating

ddavitt: Some people are talented that way

SageMerlin: At last something I can talk about

ddavitt: remeber the 'secret' of NOTB?

AGplusone: and adopted victimization as his mode of argument

ddavitt: maybe we can cut this from the log?

SageMerlin: maybe you should

reclusekrc: ha! just saw ddavitt message. - nope

SageMerlin: and I don't even know what you're talking about

SageMerlin: which is how I have felt all night

AGplusone: I'll let Dave Wright make up his mind about it. Me, I'm not very nice .... "cross" is my attitude.

BPRAL22169: Do you think anyone noticed, David?

BPRAL22169: you're so . . . *subtle* . . . about it.

AGplusone: I keep telling everyone ...

ddavitt: If you mean the sff groups kate, try them.

ddavitt: If yor server will let you add them

AGplusone: Okay, back into the subject chat ...

Paradis402: Cat was a multifaceted mystery by Robert. I think. Partly written for Ginny. A love story after Antarctica. Ask Jubal or the Penguins.

reclusekrc: are you talking about rasff?

BPRAL22169: One of these day's I've got to load Netscape and get access to the sff. group.

ddavitt: Alan, why are you feeling lost?

AGplusone: I just thought of something: in a series mystery, something always seems to happen between the authors and his characters .... what?

BPRAL22169: She has a wonderful set ofpictures of Penguins with a copy of Friday. Penguin critics.

ddavitt: Denis I'm intrigued, say more

ddavitt: I know about that trip but how did it lead to cat?

Paradis402: Read Cat again. I keep rereading it.

ddavitt: Penguin is a fampus mystery publsiher

ddavitt: Famous

EBATNM has entered the room.

AGplusone: .... what happens, folk?

ddavitt: Sheesh..stone cold sober too

SageMerlin: Because everyone keeps talking about stuff I don;t know nothing about

BPRAL22169: Yo, Andy.

AGplusone: You have to lurk afh, Alan

SageMerlin: which I should be used to by now

ddavitt: Hi Andy

reclusekrc: not me - I have had a good 4 fingers of single malt

ddavitt: You should drag the talk firmly down to your level; that's what i do:-)

EBATNM: Hi all, I actually *remembered* this was chat night

Paradis402: Sorry Alan. I keep going back to the mysteries in Cat.

ddavitt: Which one?

ddavitt: My husband collects them

reclusekrc: McCallums

ddavitt: You mean Macallan?

AGplusone: I ask again: in a series mystery, something always happens between the author and his protagonist character .... what?

ddavitt: Whcih is the name of one of our cats..

SageMerlin: Seems to me that Cat is filled with conundrums moreso than mysteries.

ddavitt: Talisker being the other

reclusekrc: ah, yes. Bottle is in other room and my spelling is not too good on my best day.

ddavitt: How old?

ddavitt: I got him the 25 year old instead of a wedding ring

SageMerlin: Topped off with one unfinished time travel paradox that gives me a headache every time I think about it.

reclusekrc: 12 - I can't afford the others. Though I gifted myself with the 18 one xmas

ddavitt: No, that's easy

BPRAL22169: Andy, I just sent you a copy of the log.

ddavitt: gretchen gets pregnant; hasn't yet so they must survive

ddavitt: hasn't slept with her yet I mean

EBATNM: Thanks

AGplusone: No, the author doesn't inseminate the protagoist, Jane ... :-)

ddavitt: Tho artifical methods and a quick trip back in time could do the job too

ddavitt: Lost me there..must be my sweet innocent mind

BPRAL22169: I'd like to hear an exposition from Denis -- the most important points he thinks abuot CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS

ddavitt: 18 is nice and smooth ( the whisky, not Gretchen)

AGplusone: gonist ... well, was asking what always happens in a mystery series between author and protagonist ....

AGplusone: almost always

Paradis402: Ouch. My conjectures.

ddavitt: And how it relates to the penguins

McKevin0: But they're both very costly, Jane

ddavitt: Oh yes.

SageMerlin: I don't know but I think that Robert Parker is doing a Dorian Gray thing with Spenser in reverse

ddavitt: So was a wedding ring

AGplusone: LOL

reclusekrc: *snicker*

SageMerlin: Parker gets older and older and Spenser seems to be 45 forever

AGplusone: when he made Spenser start to have 'feelings' I nearly puked

ddavitt: Is Richard hard boiled then?

AGplusone: Think he should shoot Susan Silverman

SageMerlin: Last time I saw Parker, he looked a little peaked

SageMerlin: I think someone should

Paradis402: Richard loves Gwen.

reclusekrc: Parker is not bad compared to Charteris. I think the saint is 35 forever.

SageMerlin: But as I recall Leslie really had some real world experience in the business

AGplusone: Okay: I'll answer myself. Doyle kills Sherlock Holmes.

ddavitt: And poirot should have been 120

SageMerlin: parker was an english teacher at Northeastern

SageMerlin: Not really.

SageMerlin: It was only attempted murder.

AGplusone: Is it possible that Cat was the novel that Heinlein decided to kill his characters off?

SageMerlin: As we find out Sherlock never went into the Chasm

AGplusone: Gwen and Richard

ddavitt: tell that to the jury

McKevin0: All this talk of Scotch - now I've fallen off the wagon into some Bruichladdich

SageMerlin: Except that he brings them back again

ddavitt: Why would he be such a Black hat?

SageMerlin: I think the most interesting scene in Cat is the one between Richard and Lazarus

Paradis402: No. Cat was not meant to kill characters. Not the good ones. I think.

AGplusone: Yep, we call that a sherlock, bringing them back

ddavitt: father and son; just like a soap opera

BPRAL22169: I liked Grandfather Stonebender in CAT

ddavitt: But the baddies are so out of the picture; it's like Star wars and you never meet darth Vader

AGplusone: Crais, btw, does that almost in L.A. Requiem

SageMerlin: Richard's criticisms of Lazarus sound very much like Robert disclaiming responsibility for his most original creation

reclusekrc: I _liked_ Cat until we introduced LL. Am I the only one who got SICK of LL?

ddavitt: Oh yes.

AGplusone: Through Colin's critical eye?

ddavitt: I really dislike him

SageMerlin: Ginny told me once that Robert was never able to control Lazarus

AGplusone: Maybe Colin is the inheritor of Hoag's mantle of criticism

reclusekrc: ????

SageMerlin: that he keeps popping up whether you want him to or not

ddavitt: I would have had big fights with The Senior

AGplusone: You do.

reclusekrc: Most would

ddavitt: I mean, i got sick of him too

ddavitt: loved it when gwen gave him what for

ddavitt: ( as we British people say)

SageMerlin: No, I think that Richard/Colin is is Robert telling Robert=Lazarus to grow up and face facts

reclusekrc: oh, yeah. rather have a bastard in the family than . . .

Paradis402: That was what Robert wanted to achieve, I think, Jane. Lazarus did that to you.

rjjutah has entered the room.

ddavitt: So he got away from Heinlein? And Heinlein let him live?

AGplusone: Hi, Randy

SageMerlin: No, I think

EBATNM: Even LL didn't like LL when he met him as a child

rjjutah: Hi, ladies and gentlebeings ...

ddavitt: Yes; no reason to have a nice hero all the time; look at Job

ddavitt: Hi Randy

reclusekrc: hello. Single malt?

AGplusone: Good ol' Alex Hergenshimer.

ddavitt: A true afher

rjjutah: Chocolate Shake, please.....

ddavitt: And an intruder

ddavitt: :-):-)

Paradis402: Lazarus enjoyed himself. Always.

AGplusone: We're talking about the aspect of RAH's possibly deciding to kill off his protagonists in Cat, just as Doyle killed Holmes.

rjjutah: How's it going, Jane?

ddavitt: Fine, thanks, Ok your end?

AGplusone: ~ to mystery detective series ...

rjjutah: Cold, but you already know about that.... :-)

ddavitt: So; did he relent? Or what?

ddavitt: Oh yes. Windchill is something I've never encountered before moving to Canada

BPRAL22169: LL isn't the star of the show any more. He's no longer in his element.

ddavitt: And he hates it

SageMerlin: okay I am off the wagon....and into a bottle of creme boulard, thank you very much

reclusekrc: I don't think you CAN kill LL. . .muttermutter

ddavitt: Bet he wishes he hadn't picked up Gay Deceiver sometimes

ddavitt: Except it got him Maureen

EBATNM: The whole point of CAT is that the author - Heinlein - didn't write THE conclusion so - in the World of Myth - both endings were equally possible

SageMerlin: believe me I KNOW that's a fact

AGplusone: But Colin is a LL substitute, isn't he. the cloned leg even works for him as a transplant

BPRAL22169: Horus gives way to Isis.

ddavitt: The King is dead, long live the king

AGplusone: After all Laz is a little too old and important to get into all those 007 missions anymore

reclusekrc: huh? Where did Horus and Isis come in?

BPRAL22169: No -- I think he's got bigger fish to fry.

SageMerlin: but David's right....it's exactly like Doyle and Sherlock because the ending is so ambiguous

AGplusone: that too

ddavitt: So jr gets 'volunteered'

AGplusone: 'subbed in' so to speak

BPRAL22169: Lazarus is the incarnatino of the magical child. When the Age of Aquarius passes, we're back to Isis again.

rjjutah: Lazarus does what he always does best - manipulate others to do what he wants...

BPRAL22169: Then, I guess, Osiris again, but he doesn't cover that.

SageMerlin: what else do leaders do

ddavitt: But it doesn't work on his own chip off the block

BPRAL22169: Isis represents the age of the magna mater deities.

AGplusone: Or maybe, since Colin is really an author, the character is inverted as killing the author?

ddavitt: Head aches and I'm on diet pepsi

reclusekrc: 'course not. Colin UNDERSTANDS LL

BPRAL22169: Perhaps Colin is RAH.

SageMerlin: But Colin isn't really an author, that;s his cover

AGplusone: RAH: "This damned LL is killing me!!@!"

ddavitt: What genre is he in?

jump101st:

ddavitt: And he is a writer; he can'rt retire

SageMerlin: too much caffene

SageMerlin: Writers can too retire

ddavitt: ooh, sugar high; i might get hyper

ddavitt: Stephen King is..

SageMerlin: all you have to do is destroy all computers and stop making paper\

AGplusone: he's really disabled military temporarily employed as a writer, isn't he?

ddavitt: So that proves something

reclusekrc: nope - according to RAH they only stop selling

SageMerlin: which is how heinlein saw himself sometijmes

BPRAL22169: Well -- RAH was disabled military "temporarily" employed as a writer, wasn't he?

BPRAL22169: GMTA

ddavitt: Richard is real and so is Hazel; TWO authors

Paradis402: Lazarus is a spectator in Cat. The main thread is Gwen and Colin.

ddavitt: Nice point

AGplusone: [as I said, Jane, a real evil thought ... ]

ddavitt: And Ginny helped Heinlein write?

AGplusone: uh-huh

BPRAL22169: I hadn't thought about Hazel being a writer, too -- Captain Sterling.

ddavitt: She was his first reader

Paradis402: She would deny that.

SageMerlin: Maybe ginny wrote the books and heinlein fronted for her

ddavitt: That's how she convinced him she was her

AGplusone: Hazel kept sending the stories in under Roger's name

ddavitt: Not very convincing incidentally

Paradis402: NO. Ginny inspired but she would deny that too.

ddavitt: Then she can write more!!!

ddavitt: We're teasing Denis.

EBATNM: Jubal Hardshaw - another writer

SageMerlin: Earl Stanley Gardner

BPRAL22169: Unfortunately, one of the most important preconditions for writing is thinking you can write

Paradis402: I know. :-)

AGplusone: telling Anne, now go finish it yourself. Anne: already did boss.

ddavitt: But I'm sure without her they would have turned out different. I'm sure she influenced them for the good

BPRAL22169: I think that was Miriam.

ddavitt: All the same...:-)

AGplusone: Okay, I'll concede ... Miriam is the name of the mother

ddavitt: Anne was mum too

EBATNM: *groan*

Paradis402: My opinion is that Robert wrote because Ginny was there.

BPRAL22169: They were all mothers.

ddavitt: Any of them could have finsihed off a Jubal story

AGplusone: <----mum myself somethings (when I'm sleeping)

reclusekrc: ah, Jane, Miriam=Mary

AGplusone: sometimes

ddavitt: Dorcas not one unless she was right at the end

BPRAL22169: Andy and I have a supplement to the Names Appendix in the upcoming issue of the Journal -- about the Secretaries in specific.

AGplusone: Dorcas is the widow

ddavitt: Stranger is one where the names do count, yes

ddavitt: Neat.

EBATNM: who was the telepathic computer that finished the Stonebender story in NotB?

AGplusone: with a 'widow's son'

ddavitt: It's a theme with this journal then...names

ddavitt: Dora

ddavitt: Ot Teena

BPRAL22169: I hadn't thought about that -- it's a theme of half the journal, anyway.

ddavitt: Teena I think it was

SageMerlin: teena

ddavitt: Yes. see; writing's easy, even a sentient computer can do it

EBATNM: So you don't have to be human to be a writer & therefore a creator

ddavitt: But did it sell?

AGplusone: In a way, Hilda/Gwen was left to finish the story in 50% of the universes when Colin dies. Like Clarke is left to finish Poddy's.

ddavitt: don't get that david; when does he die?

EBATNM: It sold but was banned in Boston

ddavitt:

AGplusone: 50% of the time when you open the box

ddavitt: Oh..the box...

AGplusone: Called Cat in the Box

EBATNM: What _does_ one do with a dead cat. Anyway?

ddavitt: But Pixel did get hurt..that was nasty.

McKevin0: goes back in the box

ddavitt: Bury it in the garden under a tree it used to climb

BPRAL22169: Swing it. The dont object quite so m uch.

ddavitt: BILL!!

Paradis402: BILL!

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SageMerlin: Right on bill

EBATNM: OK here's one - since all of the Worlds are equally valid then it doesn't matter if they lived or died in one universe since they would be alive in another

ddavitt: It matters to the one who dies

SageMerlin: Boo Hiss

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ddavitt: Got booted too?

reclusekrc: sorry - my isp dumped me off

ddavitt: There goes another

AGplusone: Yeah ... okay, Jane ... you get the next question ....

EBATNM: but only in that universe - in the other they escape by the skin of their teeth

ddavitt: Happens all the time Kate

ddavitt: What question?

Paradis402: The real Pixel has never been found. Went to find Robert.

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BPRAL22169: That's it, Denis. Exactly right.

DavidWrightSr: Hi folks. Just got bumped. Missed a few lines.

Paradis402: Thanks Bill.

DavidWrightSr: Sorry I've missed most of the discussion. Had to doctor a sick computer for a friend.

AGplusone: Get rid of the virus, Dave?

ddavitt: Fix it?

DavidWrightSr: Two viruses. Cleaned out

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DavidWrightSr: Can someone cut an paste from 'What_does_one_do_with_a_dead_cat' down to 'That's, Denis. Exactly right' and send it to me.

AGplusone: doing it

DavidWrightSr: Thanks

DavidWrightSr: I'll be quiet until I've read back over the log and see where we are

reclusekrc: I think we are all being quiet. Bedroom slippers

ddavitt: We seem to have stopped...I might have to disappear now

SageMerlin: we'll wait

ddavitt: lauren may have chicken pox...

DavidWrightSr: Good crowd.

ddavitt: She's kept me awake all week. Not that that's new

SageMerlin: yeah....I am having trouble finding the waiter..

AGplusone: sent ... aw, come on Jane ... we need a question to roll the ball.

EBATNM: The Heinlein chat crept into the room on little cat feet ...

ddavitt: Hey, pick on a quiet one

BPRAL22169: Actually we started out with mirrors -- Jonathan Hoag and "They Do It With Mirrors."

ddavitt: Who hasn;t said anything?

reclusekrc: I must fly - dinner calls.

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ddavitt: It's nearly 11 pm for me..

AGplusone: thanks for coming Kate

ddavitt: Glad you could make it kate

BPRAL22169: We do seem to be winding down.

ddavitt: See you on the groups

ddavitt: I'm suddenly exhausted

AGplusone: Mike: gotta question (disadvantage of quiet)

BPRAL22169: Unfortunately, we don't seem to have said anything much this time around.

AGplusone: Other than: are we crazy?

Paradis402: Lots of meat left for Saturday. Should be most interesting.

mkeith54: to me or another Mike

AGplusone: Yes, it should. I'll make another post or two between then and now.

BPRAL22169: No, no - that always goes without saying.

AGplusone: You, sir.

mkeith54: Go ahead

AGplusone: So if someone answers the posts ....

ddavitt: I think it was a good discussion Bill; what makes you say that?

mkeith54: Does that mean some one is there

ddavitt: Stayed pretty much on topic

AGplusone: Any questions .... any questions at all ... or thoughts, or interpretations

ddavitt: i answered your long post before I came in the room AG

AGplusone: Oh ... missed it .... gotta read it.

ddavitt: And the Tunnel one is fun; thanks Dave!

ddavitt: Can't beleive you never read PP as a child but it's one to read as an adult too.

SageMerlin: Well, folks, hate to say it but I have to go back to work now

EBATNM: PP?

DavidWrightSr: You are welcome. Lots of things I haven't read. Got hung up on SF and never read much else

DavidWrightSr: Peter Pan

ddavitt: Well, I'm off then. Don't know if I can make saturday but I'll try

SageMerlin: Have a good evening everyone

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: Q: what about the chat topic for next? Bill?

DavidWrightSr: Bye Jane. Oops too late

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markjmills: G'night...maybe next time I can get the swing of the topic...

BPRAL22169: Did you want to do that one we talked about?

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AGplusone: Yes, please.

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EBATNM: What time is the chat on Saturday?

AGplusone: 5 PM EST, 2PM PST

BPRAL22169: 2 pm, pst

rjjutah: DW-SR: According to your usual email message about the chats, there is supposed to be a link on your page, for getting info on AIM and joining the chats.

EBATNM: that means 1PM MST

DavidWrightSr: Anybody new who wants to be added to the mailing list for announcements? if so email me at dwrighsr@alltel.net and I'll put you on the list

jump101st: 5? I'll miss "Andromeda".

rjjutah: I can't seem to find it. Where am I going wrong?

BPRAL22169: OK -- "No Bands Playing -- No Flags Flying." is it or is it not Science Fiction?

jump101st: :-)

BPRAL22169: I'm sure your life will be forever improved.

BPRAL22169: I don't think we've ever done anything at all with that story.

DavidWrightSr: It's in the link called Introduction in the left panel

AGplusone: And we could segue into cross-genre and borders of genres?

EBATNM: "Stone Pillow" w/o the prophet

AGplusone: And what Heinlein and others may have done with them ...

rjjutah: Got it. Thanks.

AGplusone: pigeon holes or no pigeon holes ...

BPRAL22169: Right. What about "Stone Pillow," Andy?

EBATNM: are you going to define 'Science Fiction' before the chat or let it emerge?

DavidWrightSr: If you are on a PC, you can save a shortcut on your desktop to get you into the room automatically.

rjjutah: That's what I'm trying to set up. This is a new machine and isn't quite "broken in" yet.

AGplusone: Premeeting posts .... expect Sci-Fi, it's faults and virtues to show up a little maybe?

BPRAL22169: No -- that way lies madness.

AGplusone: emerging?

EBATNM: "No Bands - & etc" it would fit in nicely as "Stone Pillow" in the Future History if some sf'ian trappings were added.

BPRAL22169: How about "ignoring" instead?

AGplusone: 'kay, but you'll have to generate posts with something ...

EBATNM: How can you say if something is SF if you don't have a definition of SF? (Or am I being logical, _again_.)

BPRAL22169: I thin kI'll start out with te background.

AGplusone: Okay ... leadoff by Monday?

BPRAL22169: We can use the "Nature, Faults, Virtues" essay as background.

AGplusone: And you get to host?

BPRAL22169: All right.

BPRAL22169: Let

jump101st: Drat. I have an 0400 wakeup tomorrow. Catch you all on the boards. I really enjoyed this. :-)

AGplusone: Dave sent out great notices this time, really generated attendance

AGplusone: See ya, Steve

AGplusone: and thanks

BPRAL22169: Let's see -- the discussion topic could be -- why is it an issue at all?

jump101st: :-) Yep.

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BPRAL22169: So we can use it to talk about where the boundaries are and why.

AGplusone: first thought I had, Bill ...

AGplusone: exactly

rjjutah: Does anyone here remember reading Asimov's story "In a Good Cause"? It might make an interesting read when compared to some of Heinlein's works.

AGplusone: I cannot. In print, Randy?

BPRAL22169: I'm sure I've read that one -- but I don't recall what it was abut.

EBATNM: I can't recall

EBATNM: the work at all

rjjutah: It was about the contrast between a military man and a "peace activist" dealing with an alien war.

BPRAL22169: Not ringing bells -- I know I've read it.

EBATNM: is it available in one of his collections?

rjjutah: It was set over three time periods, and in the end, the two were both trying to achieve the same goal, but by different routes.

AGplusone: be a good thought-provoking summary for the premeeting, Randy?

rjjutah: Give me a second and I'll give you a citation......

AGplusone: kay

BPRAL22169: So we're talking about the 21st and 23rd of February? Bad time for me -- I'm supposed to go back to Santa Cruz at that time.

AGplusone: kick it to three weeks? Nothing sacrosanct about two weeks.

AGplusone: Go 28th and 2d

rjjutah: Jeopardy theme playing in the background .....

EBATNM: I'll take ASIMOV for 50, Alex

BPRAL22169: I can make the 21st ok. The Saturday one is the kicker. It doesn't get better for these long sessions once I'm in Santa Cruz -- I pay for connect by the minute.

BPRAL22169: So neither 3 nor 4 weeks doesn't do it for me.

DavidWrightSr: Did we ever work out anything with Connie Willis?

BPRAL22169: Or crais?

BPRAL22169: However, if someone else can host the saturday chat on the 23rd, I can do the one on the 21st.

rjjutah: It's available in Nightfall and other stories, and "The Complete Stories", and "New Tales of Space and Time," edited by Healy. I suspect that those here have at least one of those books on their shelf.

BPRAL22169: (I have to get back in time to get the work cleared away before Norwescon)

mkeith54: time to go, bye all

AGplusone: Nothing that I know of on Crais. I think he may have gone into anabolic shock at 3 hour chats.

AGplusone: Night Mike. But I'm following up.

AGplusone: So far as Willis is concerned, know nothing

mkeith54: k

AGplusone: thanks for coming

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BPRAL22169: We seem to be having 2 hour chats lately, anyway.

EBATNM: thank you

AGplusone: But, I think we can m/adjourn now, if no one has further .... I can do the Saturday, Bill.

rjjutah: EBATNM - I finally found a copy of "The Road Home," and I am a happy person, because I can finally find out what happened to the survivors of our stalwart band.

DavidWrightSr: Anything need editing out?

AGplusone: I think I'll mention that ... a little discussion about Panshin midway Dave

BPRAL22169: OK -- if that can work out, it's the best of those weeks for me.

EBATNM: Man, I have not read that in DECADES!

rjjutah: I should be able to be here all Saturday also. I just got in from my Russian refresher class, when I showed up.

EBATNM: What about getting Norman Spinrad to talk about Heinlein and the Beats?

AGplusone: Great, see you all Saturday. Sure, if you know him Andy

DavidWrightSr: Horosho. ochen priyatno

BPRAL22169: You know, that's not a bad idea -- he's really far off the beaten track. But he's president of SFWA this year, and he may not want to tak ethe time.

EBATNM: *sniff* I dont, alas

rjjutah: Priyatno. Kak dela?

BPRAL22169: You can always reach himthrough normanspinrad.com.

BPRAL22169: "All Spinrad, All the Time. We never Shut Up"

EBATNM: I haven't talked to him since 1979

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DavidWrightSr: fsyo ochen horosho so mnoj.

BPRAL22169: David Wright could make the initial contact.

BPRAL22169: (Bet that gets him spluttering english again!)

DavidWrightSr: Norman Spinrad?

BPRAL22169: He wrote the introduction for Beyond This Horizon -- very insightful.

AGplusone: That could be a leadin ... we haven't done BTH in a while either.

DavidWrightSr: Don't recall that. I thought he came along much later than BTH.

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DavidWrightSr: Was that a later edition?

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EBATNM: He wrote an intro for a later re-issue

rjjutah: I'm very rusty with the transliterations - it's been 25 years since I used it, which is why I'm going back and getting "refreshed." Your skills are far above mine. But, at least I can eat and get to the toilet.

EBATNM: The important things in life

rjjutah: Don't need much beyond that. :-)

AGplusone: Well, my spousal overlord unit informs me we are about to eat, says to tell you all her best regards but if I don't come now, "the pigs get it"

rjjutah: See you later, David.

EBATNM: bye david,

AGplusone: Bye all ... thanks for coming. I enjoyed it.

Paradis402: Good night all. See you Saturday.

BPRAL22169: Me too. Have fun all.

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EBATNM: bye all

EBATNM has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: I hate transliterations myself. I learned mine almost 40 years ago, but I do get a chance to practice it occasionally and I listen daily on the internet.

Paradis402 has left the room.

rjjutah: Yes, I'd rather see the actual characters. Transliteration just screws me up, instead of helping.

DavidWrightSr: If you want David, I'll try to get in touch with Spinrad and set up something for sometime in March or later.

AGplusone: I gotta back up if you need it, Dave. Bye again

AGplusone has left the room.

rjjutah: Do svedanya, David!

DavidWrightSr: fsyo dobrovo. i do svedanye

DavidWrightSr: Log officially closed at 11:08 P.M. EST

rjjutah: Ya ne panimaiyu "fsyo"?

DavidWrightSr: fsyo=all 'bce' with the little dots.

DavidWrightSr: Where did you learn Russian?

DavidWrightSr: Is this Randy Jost?

rjjutah: Spent two years at West Point (Junior College plan) and took Russian while I was there. Yes, this is Randy Jost

DavidWrightSr: When were you there. I have a friend who is a west point graduate.

TAWN3 has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: I learned mine in the Army too, Language School at Monterey.

DavidWrightSr: 62-63

rjjutah: I was there from July 1974-Sept 1976. Decided to go out and get a real EE degree, which you couldn't do there, at that time. Monterey is the best, from what I hear.

rjjutah: Hi Tawn

DavidWrightSr: Hi Tawn. most everybody has gone already

TAWN3: Looks that way.

TAWN3: Hi.

TAWN3: Hi all.

rjjutah: But now that you are here, the party starts! :-)

TAWN3: I haven't been here for awhile. Was the discussion good?

TAWN3: :-)

DavidWrightSr: I'll check with John and see when he was there. It seems about right, IIRC. Qualls was the name.

rjjutah: I'm a tale-end charlie, too. But the part I caught looked good. I plan to be here Saturday and be a "player."

DavidWrightSr: Don't know how good. I only got back myself about 10:30.

DavidWrightSr: I do have the log and I'll get it tomorrow I hope.

DavidWrightSr: get it out tomorrow.

rjjutah: You'd probably find the story "In a good cause" pretty germane,

David. Take a look at it if you get a chance.

DavidWrightSr: I don't recall it, but I've read most of Asimov at one time or another, so I probably did read it.

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DavidWrightSr: Got to run. See you Saturday, I hope.

rjjutah: Your best bet is to get the "Nightfall and other Stories" collection, which you've probably got knocking around somewhere. It has a very Heinleinish flavor, which is somewhat unlike Asimov, when it comes to military matters.

rjjutah: OK David


Final End Of Discussion Log

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