Here Begins the Discussion
You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."
OscagneTX has entered the room.
OscagneTX: you beat me.
aggirlj has entered the room.
aggirlj: Hey Joe, thought I'd give it another try.
aggirlj: Kultsi is going to be here. In fact if you can invite him why dontcha?
Kultsi KN has entered the room.
Kultsi KN: Hi all!
aggirlj: Hi again Kultsi
Kultsi KN: This has usually been an hour later -- not that I complain; I get to bed at a more decent time.
OscagneTX: It's the same time... we haven't started yet.
aggirlj: Is it an hour to go?
OscagneTX: We have another... 1:10.
aggirlj: Oh, well then, I'll continue with my laundry. Sorry, just hanging out here then.
OscagneTX: Central time, Jane. %^)
aggirlj: I get confused, duh.
OscagneTX: I was just lurking to get early-comers.
aggirlj: Could I make a suggestion?
OscagneTX: use eastern time?
Kultsi KN: Ok, GA
aggirlj: I find it awfully hard to follow along with these chats if people are continually interupting a thought. Is there a way to kind of stay with one person and comment on that?
OscagneTX: With a moderator, I suppose.
OscagneTX: I don't really like the idea, myself.
aggirlj: Can we get a consensus at the beginning and try to at least hold comment a little bit until everyone is on the same page?
OscagneTX: The early chats were organized with some kind of moderation, I think, but that was when big-time authors were guesting.
OscagneTX: I don't get what you mean... you mean sorta shut everyone up and then start the topic formally?
Kultsi KN: It was very much politeness towards the guests
aggirlj: Not really intending to shut anyone up.
OscagneTX: that's just verbal shorthand for "get everyone's attention and ask them to withhold comment until a formal topic is proposed."
Kultsi KN: I think Jane means to have one person get all finished before starting yakking about what was said.
OscagneTX: K: We'd have to have formal moderation for that, I think.
aggirlj: Of course being on the hot seat would be a bit intimidating, for me at least.
OscagneTX: I've never been a formal moderator. Have you, K?
OscagneTX: I've never even been in a formally moderated chat.
aggirlj: I like the free flow of some of this but I really was lost Thursday.
Kultsi KN: Well, David did do a fairly good bit of, informal perhaps, moderation.
OscagneTX: The way the used to do it was, anyone who had a question would type "question" and then wait to actually post the question until David called on them.
OscagneTX: Going from the logs, that is.
aggirlj: I remember that.
Kultsi KN: I have never been on a chat _that_ formal
aggirlj: It worked somewhat. But you have some very strong and forceful people who need to be heard sometimes.
OscagneTX: But... we don't really have a guest. We'll probably have to revert to that if I can ever get us a guest again. I've got inquiries in to NASA, and Homer Hickham says he'll join us in about May.
Kultsi KN: But prompting people really does the same thing
aggirlj: Just a thought.
OscagneTX: I _don't_ want to leave anyone behind, and we can definetly bring it up for discussion once everyone gets here. Or post it for input on afh.
aggirlj: Back to the laundry. See you in about 45
Kultsi KN: Me too -- not laundry until tomorrow, but other things. Cya in an hour.
Merfilly27 has entered the room.
aggirlj: Hi Steph,
aggirlj: Joe, are you there. Ron needs help getting in the room.
OscagneTX: dehede, right?
Merfilly27 has left the room.
Merfilly27 has entered the room.
Dehede011 has entered the room.
Dehede011: Thank you for the invite.
OscagneTX: No problem.
aggirlj: I haven't yet figured it out.
Kultsi KN: Hello Steph, Ron!
OscagneTX: Are you using a Mac, Jane?
Merfilly27: gee seems we just met, Kultsi
Dehede011: Well, Janie, you have everything else figured out so all goes well.
Kultsi KN: Indeed, Steph -- just making this formal :-P
OscagneTX: Okay, so I'd be clueless to help.
Dehede011: We will overlook one little shortcoming.
Merfilly27: as if we have ever stood on formality, mon ami
Dehede011: Hi, Merphilly
aggirlj: There is always the "kindness of strangers" to help out.
Dehede011: What is going on that is new and exciting??
Merfilly27: Spirit snarked a Boojum
aggirlj: Did you read tht tiny url on what's wrong with the lander?
Dehede011: No, what is it.
aggirlj: Very funny.
OscagneTX: That was a joke, Jane.
OscagneTX: Oh, ok.
Kultsi KN: There is this new exciting book in circulation.
OscagneTX: Some folks were having trouble getting it.
aggirlj: Are you kidding?????
OscagneTX: Thanks for noticing, Kultsi...
OscagneTX: "Dystopic Utopias"
Kultsi KN: That's the one, Ron.
OscagneTX: By me.
Dehede011: I understand EU is out in a hardback edition
Dehede011: I have always thought that TEFL was a major dividing line in RAHs career. Now I am trying to figure out if FUTL changes my opinion on that.
aggirlj: Have you read FUTL completely or as I am not finished yet?
Dehede011: I've finished FUTL
aggirlj: What did you think?
Merfilly27: with TEFL, he went back to FUTL's idealism?
aggirlj: For a first attempt.
Dehede011: It isn't bad, it makes us revise some of our thinking in that some of his ideas formed earlier than I first believed
OscagneTX: How are you connecting TEFL and FUTL?
Dehede011: Me or Murph?
Merfilly27: He tackled customs in FUTL...but customs are mere extensions of taboos, which TEFL dealt with breaking
Dehede011: I am not connecting it yet, at least not in a major way, but it has me looking for a connection
OscagneTX: I'd say FUTL is more about having different taboos than about breaking any.
OscagneTX: I just got the impression of a very repressed societyl.
aggirlj: Certainly restricted in some sense.
aggirlj: By custom.
Merfilly27: yes, but I am not decisively connecting the two...just noting that TEFL is the ex perienced retake of culture with his hopes of FUTL there
Dehede011: FUTL has me thinking about the connection between Heinlein's ideas on sexual practices and the practices outlined in the Officers etiquette manual for the US Navy
Dehede011: I used to have a copy of the Officer's Manual and this has me wondering if I still do.
Dehede011: Pretend for a moment that Jane and I are married and I am a Naval Officer as Heinlein was?
Dehede011: So you gentlemen on here today and are brother officers.
BPRAL22169 has entered the room.
Merfilly27: I don't wanna be a gentleman
Dehede011: I am at sea and word comes to me that one of my brother officers has been seen dining out with Jane.
Dehede011: According to the Navy Manual what should my reaction be?
OscagneTX: Put it off until you get back? Repress it?
aggirlj: He's a brother officer and honorable.
Dehede011: Anyone want to take a try at that?
aggirlj: Until proven otherwise.
Dehede011: Yes, he is a brother officer and assumed to be honorable.
Dehede011: I am to be grateful that a brother officer saw fit to get Jane out of the house for a couple of hours.
Dehede011: I am not to consider that he might not be honorable until I have evidence to the contrary.
aggirlj: Would there not be a list of acceptable escorts and might he not be on that list.
Dehede011: Jane and I may have a list of guys that are off limits -- yes, but that is private
Dehede011: Now, my question is this?
Dehede011: Given the background that I have just given you just how strange is Heinlein's mores
starfall2 has entered the room.
aggirlj: Hi Jackie.
starfall2: i guess this is going to kill any chance of me unpacking from winter break before my roomies get back =P
Dehede011: Now let me have Merfilly for a wife and let Jane be married to one of you other gentlemen.
OscagneTX: (jackie... just hypothetical)
Dehede011: The way things were often actually done would be for Merfilly and I to take Jane out while her hubby was at sea.
starfall2: i figured that out
aggirlj: Exactly correct.
Dehede011: But that other example was in the manual.
OscagneTX: That was _in_ the manual? I'd have thought that'd be one of those "unspoken" things.
aggirlj: From what I understand thinking back to then, no woman would be out with any other man if married than her husband.
Dehede011: Still I am asking given his background was Heinlein so strange??
Merfilly27: No, there are explicit examples of conduct in the manual...remember from my JROTC
Dehede011: I bought my copy in 1955 roughly -- could have been 56
aggirlj: In the military there are differences, but the women seem to be the judges or critics in this regard.
Aurorax13 has entered the room.
jilyd has entered the room.
JudyjediJudy has entered the room.
Merfilly27: hey Stranger Dee
aggirlj: Hi Dee.
Merfilly27: hello JJJ
jilyd: Fancy meeting you here, steph!
Merfilly27: you know, I had the same feeling with Kultsi
Dehede011: Is my brain misfiring, I thought Dee was on here when I came on?
Kultsi KN: Hi, gals!
Merfilly27: And I missed Aurora
Merfilly27: hi there
JudyjediJudy has left the room.
aggirlj: And what I mean by that is there is a hierarchy within the married women in the military and you are made to conduct yourself in certain ways.
Aurorax13: well I am here right now but I need to cook and make arrangements for my children for the evening
OscagneTX: Okay... so how are you relating the Naval ettiquite to FUTL, Ron?
jilyd: Hi, Judy and Aurorax. I'm Dee. And no, Ron, you were here ahead of me.
Dehede011: I haven't experienced that but as one woman's conduct would reflect on the others I imagine you are right
Dehede011: I just think I detect a familiar ring to the non jealousy pattern
aggirlj: During the 50's.
Dehede011: Hi Dee.
aggirlj: Jealousy is a wasted emotion.
moultonfcx has entered the room.
OscagneTX: Maybe... seems like to me a manual from the '30s would be more trying to control the behavior, and the folks in FUTL were trying to control the emtions, themselves.
Merfilly27: who here has not felt at least a pinch of the green monster in their past?
Dehede011: Oh Jane, I have taken leave of my senses. In the Navy I believe there is a little hierarchy among the wives with the CO's wife being the ranking wife.
aggirlj: Hand up.
BPRAL22169: Me too
Dehede011: Hi Bill.
Merfilly27: Then you are a fine woman, for as tolerant as I am, I did get miffed at being ignored by my love in favor of others at time
aggirlj: Hey, when did you sneak in, Hi Bill.
BPRAL22169: Oh, I've been here for a bit. I came in almost on the dot.
aggirlj: Wellll, maybe a long time ago.
aggirlj: I did get that green thingy.
Merfilly27: hiya Bill...I missed you too
BPRAL22169: I'm not sure "being miffed at being ignored" quite qualifies as jealousy -- it's one of the things you could do about being jealous.
Dehede011: brb, I am going to make a quick scan for my manual.
Merfilly27: it was jealousy, for I would find myself less civil with my rivals
BPRAL22169: But, generally, one can have appropraite feelings about being treated one way or another
jilyd: When I think of jealousy, I think of the kind that is full of suspicion. I have never had that kind.
aggirlj: Get away from that fast. Eats one up.
jilyd: But I have sometimes fallen prey to feeling left out.
Merfilly27: I find the people of FUTL too flat...lacking most of the deeper passions
Merfilly27: I have not been bitten by that one either, Dee
BPRAL22169: Yeahbut -- "feeling left out" isn't jealousy -- it's feeling left out
Merfilly27: just the little green monster
aggirlj: I agree Steph. I think it's because he chose to limit his exposition for some reason.
OscagneTX: My jealousy has always had root in insecurity. When I root out the insecurity, the jealousy follows.
jilyd: THe way not to have jealousy is to remember that you believe in your partner's honor.
BPRAL22169: There's a danger to that approach, Dee --
BPRAL22169: when your partner's conception of honor differs from yours.
BPRAL22169: The better way is to say to yourself: "it's not about me."
Merfilly27: I've never been jealous on a "physical" level...only on one of room in the heart, so to speak
jilyd: Well, to believe in it, you sort of have to both be onthe same page.
BPRAL22169: I'd say, again, that's not jealousy, Steph. Maybe an analogy of jealousy, though.
Merfilly27: (by the way, I may be distracted, the girls are changing their brother's diaper)
BPRAL22169: Not having one's proper social place acknowledged is a factual, social trauma (in the loose sense).
BPRAL22169: It's one of those things Aristotle talks about under the combined heading of "honor" in the Nichomachean Ethics -- public virtues.
BPRAL22169: Recognizing and feeling bad about a social insult is not pathological.
Dehede011: Nope, it seems to be gone, but I still have my Watch Officer's Guide
jilyd: Oops, gotta run. See you guys another time.
jilyd has left the room.
Merfilly27 has left the room.
Merfilly27 has entered the room.
Dehede011: Bye Dee.
aggirlj: Dee left so fast Steph was booted but you got back quick!
Kultsi KN: LOL
aggirlj: I wonder why there was so little expositon in FUTL?
Dehede011: I was a Naval Aviation Cadet but that was for training and there was a degree of professionalism.
BPRAL22169: Exposition of what, Jane?
Dehede011: Economics??? LOL
aggirlj: More about main characters, especially where I am right now and Diana.
OscagneTX: I've always liked a start en medias res.
moultonfcx: Don't forget Olga as a main character.
BPRAL22169: I thought he did almost all of his character development in the scenes; I came out with a clear sense of their personalities.