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Heinlein Readers Discussion Group
Saturday January 24, 2004
For Us, The Living

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Here Begins the Discussion

You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group chat."

OscagneTX has entered the room.

OscagneTX: you beat me.

aggirlj has entered the room.

OscagneTX: howdy

aggirlj: Hey Joe, thought I'd give it another try.

OscagneTX: another?

aggirlj: Kultsi is going to be here. In fact if you can invite him why dontcha?

OscagneTX: ok

Kultsi KN has entered the room.

Kultsi KN: Hi all!

OscagneTX: howdy

aggirlj: Hi again Kultsi

Kultsi KN: This has usually been an hour later -- not that I complain; I get to bed at a more decent time.

OscagneTX: It's the same time... we haven't started yet.

aggirlj: Is it an hour to go?

OscagneTX: We have another... 1:10.

aggirlj: Oh, well then, I'll continue with my laundry. Sorry, just hanging out here then.

OscagneTX: hehe

OscagneTX: Central time, Jane. %^)

aggirlj: I get confused, duh.

OscagneTX: I was just lurking to get early-comers.

aggirlj: Could I make a suggestion?

OscagneTX: use eastern time?

Kultsi KN: Ok, GA

aggirlj: I find it awfully hard to follow along with these chats if people are continually interupting a thought. Is there a way to kind of stay with one person and comment on that?

OscagneTX: With a moderator, I suppose.

OscagneTX: I don't really like the idea, myself.

aggirlj: Can we get a consensus at the beginning and try to at least hold comment a little bit until everyone is on the same page?

OscagneTX: The early chats were organized with some kind of moderation, I think, but that was when big-time authors were guesting.

aggirlj: Oh.

OscagneTX: I don't get what you mean... you mean sorta shut everyone up and then start the topic formally?

Kultsi KN: It was very much politeness towards the guests

aggirlj: Not really intending to shut anyone up.

OscagneTX: that's just verbal shorthand for "get everyone's attention and ask them to withhold comment until a formal topic is proposed."

Kultsi KN: I think Jane means to have one person get all finished before starting yakking about what was said.

OscagneTX: K: We'd have to have formal moderation for that, I think.

aggirlj: Of course being on the hot seat would be a bit intimidating, for me at least.

OscagneTX: I've never been a formal moderator. Have you, K?

OscagneTX: I've never even been in a formally moderated chat.

aggirlj: I like the free flow of some of this but I really was lost Thursday.

Kultsi KN: Well, David did do a fairly good bit of, informal perhaps, moderation.

OscagneTX: The way the used to do it was, anyone who had a question would type "question" and then wait to actually post the question until David called on them.

OscagneTX: Going from the logs, that is.

aggirlj: I remember that.

Kultsi KN: I have never been on a chat _that_ formal

aggirlj: It worked somewhat. But you have some very strong and forceful people who need to be heard sometimes.

OscagneTX: But... we don't really have a guest. We'll probably have to revert to that if I can ever get us a guest again. I've got inquiries in to NASA, and Homer Hickham says he'll join us in about May.

Kultsi KN: But prompting people really does the same thing

aggirlj: Just a thought.

OscagneTX: I _don't_ want to leave anyone behind, and we can definetly bring it up for discussion once everyone gets here. Or post it for input on afh.

aggirlj: Kewl.

aggirlj: Back to the laundry. See you in about 45

OscagneTX: Ok.

OscagneTX: afk

Kultsi KN: Me too -- not laundry until tomorrow, but other things. Cya in an hour.

OscagneTX: b

Merfilly27 has entered the room.

aggirlj: Hi Steph,

Merfilly27: howdy

OscagneTX: howdy

aggirlj: Joe, are you there. Ron needs help getting in the room.

OscagneTX: dehede, right?

aggirlj: Right

Merfilly27 has left the room.

Merfilly27 has entered the room.

Dehede011 has entered the room.

OscagneTX: Howdy.

aggirlj: Xlent

Dehede011: Thank you for the invite.

Merfilly27: np

OscagneTX: No problem.

aggirlj: I haven't yet figured it out.

Kultsi KN: Hello Steph, Ron!

OscagneTX: Are you using a Mac, Jane?

Merfilly27: gee seems we just met, Kultsi

aggirlj: Yes

Dehede011: Well, Janie, you have everything else figured out so all goes well.

aggirlj: :-)

Kultsi KN: Indeed, Steph -- just making this formal :-P

OscagneTX: Okay, so I'd be clueless to help.

Dehede011: We will overlook one little shortcoming.

Merfilly27: as if we have ever stood on formality, mon ami

Dehede011: Hi, Merphilly

aggirlj: There is always the "kindness of strangers" to help out.

Merfilly27: hello

Dehede011: What is going on that is new and exciting??

Merfilly27: Spirit snarked a Boojum

Merfilly27: :-)

aggirlj: Did you read tht tiny url on what's wrong with the lander?

Dehede011: No, what is it.

aggirlj: Very funny.

OscagneTX: That was a joke, Jane.

OscagneTX: Oh, ok.

Kultsi KN: There is this new exciting book in circulation.

OscagneTX: Some folks were having trouble getting it.

aggirlj: Are you kidding?????

Dehede011: FUTL?

OscagneTX: Thanks for noticing, Kultsi...

OscagneTX: "Dystopic Utopias"

Kultsi KN: That's the one, Ron.

OscagneTX: By me.

OscagneTX: %^)

aggirlj: Yea!

Dehede011: I understand EU is out in a hardback edition

Dehede011: I have always thought that TEFL was a major dividing line in RAHs career. Now I am trying to figure out if FUTL changes my opinion on that.

aggirlj: Have you read FUTL completely or as I am not finished yet?

Dehede011: I've finished FUTL

aggirlj: What did you think?

Merfilly27: with TEFL, he went back to FUTL's idealism?

aggirlj: For a first attempt.

Dehede011: It isn't bad, it makes us revise some of our thinking in that some of his ideas formed earlier than I first believed

OscagneTX: How are you connecting TEFL and FUTL?

Dehede011: Me or Murph?

OscagneTX: either

Merfilly27: He tackled customs in FUTL...but customs are mere extensions of taboos, which TEFL dealt with breaking

Dehede011: I am not connecting it yet, at least not in a major way, but it has me looking for a connection

OscagneTX: I'd say FUTL is more about having different taboos than about breaking any.

OscagneTX: I just got the impression of a very repressed societyl.

aggirlj: Certainly restricted in some sense.

aggirlj: By custom.

Merfilly27: yes, but I am not decisively connecting the two...just noting that TEFL is the ex perienced retake of culture with his hopes of FUTL there

Dehede011: FUTL has me thinking about the connection between Heinlein's ideas on sexual practices and the practices outlined in the Officers etiquette manual for the US Navy

OscagneTX: ?

Dehede011: I used to have a copy of the Officer's Manual and this has me wondering if I still do.

Dehede011: Pretend for a moment that Jane and I are married and I am a Naval Officer as Heinlein was?

OscagneTX: Ok.

Dehede011: So you gentlemen on here today and are brother officers.

OscagneTX: ok

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

Merfilly27: I don't wanna be a gentleman

Merfilly27: :-)

Dehede011: I am at sea and word comes to me that one of my brother officers has been seen dining out with Jane.

aggirlj: LOL

OscagneTX: Okaaaaaay.

Dehede011: According to the Navy Manual what should my reaction be?

OscagneTX: Put it off until you get back? Repress it?

aggirlj: He's a brother officer and honorable.

Dehede011: Anyone want to take a try at that?

aggirlj: Until proven otherwise.

Dehede011: Yes, he is a brother officer and assumed to be honorable.

Merfilly27: afk

Dehede011: I am to be grateful that a brother officer saw fit to get Jane out of the house for a couple of hours.

OscagneTX: hehe

Dehede011: I am not to consider that he might not be honorable until I have evidence to the contrary.

aggirlj: Would there not be a list of acceptable escorts and might he not be on that list.

Dehede011: Jane and I may have a list of guys that are off limits -- yes, but that is private

Dehede011: Now, my question is this?

Dehede011: Given the background that I have just given you just how strange is Heinlein's mores

starfall2 has entered the room.

aggirlj: Hi Jackie.

OscagneTX: howdy

starfall2: hi

starfall2: i guess this is going to kill any chance of me unpacking from winter break before my roomies get back =P

OscagneTX: %^)

Dehede011: Now let me have Merfilly for a wife and let Jane be married to one of you other gentlemen.

OscagneTX: Ok.

OscagneTX: (jackie... just hypothetical)

Dehede011: The way things were often actually done would be for Merfilly and I to take Jane out while her hubby was at sea.

starfall2: i figured that out

aggirlj: Exactly correct.

OscagneTX: Right.

Dehede011: But that other example was in the manual.

Merfilly27: b

OscagneTX: That was _in_ the manual? I'd have thought that'd be one of those "unspoken" things.

aggirlj: From what I understand thinking back to then, no woman would be out with any other man if married than her husband.

Dehede011: Still I am asking given his background was Heinlein so strange??

Merfilly27: No, there are explicit examples of conduct in the manual...remember from my JROTC

Dehede011: I bought my copy in 1955 roughly -- could have been 56

aggirlj: In the military there are differences, but the women seem to be the judges or critics in this regard.

Aurorax13 has entered the room.

jilyd has entered the room.

OscagneTX: howdy.

JudyjediJudy has entered the room.

starfall2: hi

JudyjediJudy: Hello.

Dehede011: Howdy

Aurorax13: hi

OscagneTX: howdy

Merfilly27: hey Stranger Dee

Merfilly27: :-)

aggirlj: Hi Dee.

Merfilly27: hello JJJ

jilyd: Fancy meeting you here, steph!

Merfilly27: ;-)

Merfilly27: you know, I had the same feeling with Kultsi

Dehede011: Is my brain misfiring, I thought Dee was on here when I came on?

Kultsi KN: Hi, gals!

Merfilly27: And I missed Aurora

Merfilly27: hi there

JudyjediJudy has left the room.

Aurorax13: HI

aggirlj: And what I mean by that is there is a hierarchy within the married women in the military and you are made to conduct yourself in certain ways.

Aurorax13: well I am here right now but I need to cook and make arrangements for my children for the evening

OscagneTX: Okay... so how are you relating the Naval ettiquite to FUTL, Ron?

jilyd: Hi, Judy and Aurorax. I'm Dee. And no, Ron, you were here ahead of me.

Dehede011: I haven't experienced that but as one woman's conduct would reflect on the others I imagine you are right

Dehede011: I just think I detect a familiar ring to the non jealousy pattern

aggirlj: During the 50's.

Dehede011: Hi Dee.

aggirlj: Jealousy is a wasted emotion.

starfall2: brb

moultonfcx has entered the room.

OscagneTX: Maybe... seems like to me a manual from the '30s would be more trying to control the behavior, and the folks in FUTL were trying to control the emtions, themselves.

OscagneTX: howdy.

Merfilly27: who here has not felt at least a pinch of the green monster in their past?

Dehede011: Oh Jane, I have taken leave of my senses. In the Navy I believe there is a little hierarchy among the wives with the CO's wife being the ranking wife.

aggirlj: Hand up.

BPRAL22169: Me too

Dehede011: Hi Bill.

BPRAL22169: Yo

Merfilly27: Then you are a fine woman, for as tolerant as I am, I did get miffed at being ignored by my love in favor of others at time

aggirlj: Hey, when did you sneak in, Hi Bill.

BPRAL22169: Oh, I've been here for a bit. I came in almost on the dot.

aggirlj: Wellll, maybe a long time ago.

aggirlj: I did get that green thingy.

Merfilly27: hiya Bill...I missed you too

BPRAL22169: I'm not sure "being miffed at being ignored" quite qualifies as jealousy -- it's one of the things you could do about being jealous.

Dehede011: brb, I am going to make a quick scan for my manual.

Merfilly27: it was jealousy, for I would find myself less civil with my rivals

BPRAL22169: But, generally, one can have appropraite feelings about being treated one way or another

jilyd: When I think of jealousy, I think of the kind that is full of suspicion. I have never had that kind.

aggirlj: Get away from that fast. Eats one up.

jilyd: But I have sometimes fallen prey to feeling left out.

Merfilly27: I find the people of FUTL too flat...lacking most of the deeper passions

Merfilly27: I have not been bitten by that one either, Dee

BPRAL22169: Yeahbut -- "feeling left out" isn't jealousy -- it's feeling left out

Merfilly27: just the little green monster

aggirlj: I agree Steph. I think it's because he chose to limit his exposition for some reason.

OscagneTX: My jealousy has always had root in insecurity. When I root out the insecurity, the jealousy follows.

jilyd: THe way not to have jealousy is to remember that you believe in your partner's honor.

BPRAL22169: There's a danger to that approach, Dee --

BPRAL22169: when your partner's conception of honor differs from yours.

BPRAL22169: The better way is to say to yourself: "it's not about me."

Merfilly27: I've never been jealous on a "physical" level...only on one of room in the heart, so to speak

jilyd: Well, to believe in it, you sort of have to both be onthe same page.

BPRAL22169: I'd say, again, that's not jealousy, Steph. Maybe an analogy of jealousy, though.

Merfilly27: (by the way, I may be distracted, the girls are changing their brother's diaper)

BPRAL22169: Not having one's proper social place acknowledged is a factual, social trauma (in the loose sense).

BPRAL22169: It's one of those things Aristotle talks about under the combined heading of "honor" in the Nichomachean Ethics -- public virtues.

BPRAL22169: Recognizing and feeling bad about a social insult is not pathological.

Dehede011: Nope, it seems to be gone, but I still have my Watch Officer's Guide

jilyd: Oops, gotta run. See you guys another time.

jilyd has left the room.

Merfilly27 has left the room.

Merfilly27 has entered the room.

Dehede011: Bye Dee.

aggirlj: Dee left so fast Steph was booted but you got back quick!

Kultsi KN: LOL

aggirlj: I wonder why there was so little expositon in FUTL?

Dehede011: I was a Naval Aviation Cadet but that was for training and there was a degree of professionalism.

BPRAL22169: Exposition of what, Jane?

Dehede011: Economics??? LOL

aggirlj: More about main characters, especially where I am right now and Diana.

OscagneTX: I've always liked a start en medias res.

moultonfcx: Don't forget Olga as a main character.

BPRAL22169: I thought he did almost all of his character development in the scenes; I came out with a clear sense of their personalities.

Dehede011: Olga could have done with some more description.

Merfilly27: yeah...both women were just barely there, no substance

Merfilly27: or, maybe that is them...that is all FUTLers

aggirlj: Interesting.

Merfilly27: loss of emotive display creates two dee living

BPRAL22169: That's an interesting point.

BPRAL22169: I think it may relate more to the technical difficulty of writing a utopia

BPRAL22169: They wouldn't have all the quirks of character that reflect our wounding by society and upbringing -- so we don't get the cues.

aggirlj: Diana is definately somewhat of an innocent.

BPRAL22169: Or don't know how to recognize the cues they are sending -- can't properly participate in the society (which is where Perry certainly is).

Dehede011: If I am right about the Naval influence on RAH is that why his society is a little stiff five years after he left the Navy??

moultonfcx: Also consider the that the 30s were a little stiff

aggirlj: I am reading it with no preconceived ideas. Luck me I think since my comparisons are small.

OscagneTX: Okay... my mind is blank... Diana was the lady who found Perry, and Olga was the therapist?

Merfilly27: yes

OscagneTX: Ok...

BPRAL22169: I think some of the stiffness must be due to his literary models and the conventions of the genre he was aiming at. My first reaction on reading it was that it read an awful lot like John Taine's stuff.

OscagneTX: What do you think about Diana as a "enabler"?

aggirlj: She certainly was supportive.

OscagneTX: She knew Perry was having problems... probably had a good idea what they were... but didn't have the confrontational nature needed to prod him onto the "right" path.

BPRAL22169: Did she have a good idea of what his problems were, though?

aggirlj: He was completely out of the loop.

OscagneTX: I thought so when I was reading.

BPRAL22169: They were completely outside her experience -- and she is portrayed as sophisticated about the commercial side of her art, but not necessarily about anything else.

moultonfcx: It is hard to tell but the implication is that professional help was needed

OscagneTX: When he starts talking about being "honorable" and being married and whatnot, she doesn't set him straight.

moultonfcx: I think she tries.

LanaiHoward has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: that's because he was uttering gibberish -- the words didn't string togethe properly in Convenant society to have any meaning.

aggirlj: I think she wanted him to be better prepared firs.

OscagneTX: Howdy, Howard.

aggirlj: first

OscagneTX: I thought she was letting him steamroller her.

OscagneTX: Lazarus would not have respected her, I don't think.

LanaiHoward: Hi all. The idea of being prepared firs sounds nice--piney, pleasantly green

aggirlj: lol

AGplusone has entered the room.

OscagneTX: Howdy, David.

aggirlj: Hi David.

AGplusone: [wave to all]

BPRAL22169: [wave back]

LanaiHoward: Osc, you talking about Dian? Could it have been a reverse of Lazarus with a couple of unexpected slaves -- they don't know the customs?

OscagneTX: yup

OscagneTX: Let me recap my idea for the new joiners:

LanaiHoward: Lazarus never struck me as unreasonable for someone learning.

OscagneTX: Diana was an enabler. She knew Perry had problems, but let his personality roll over her, to both their detriments.

LanaiHoward: (steamrollering, however, may be involved with the tail now draped over the monitor. Does Rhonda wish to comment from up there>)

OscagneTX: Lazarus would challenge your self-confidence, and grant (grudging, I think) respect if you stood up to him.

AGplusone: How was it to Perry's detriment? Or Diane's?

LanaiHoward: But would old Doctor Lafe? Would that Lazarus avatar have given some leeway for disorientation im a patient -- until they recovered a bit?

OscagneTX: I think a lot of the drama would have been avoided if she'd been more insistent. Bad for the book, but good for her personal life, and for Perry, probably.

OscagneTX: She let him get out of control enough that he committed a battery and had to get realigned (or whatever).

LanaiHoward: Or not Lazarus per se, but with Ben Caxton from the drunk tank? Jubal clearly cut slack for Jill.

OscagneTX: With Jill, we're talking about naivety, not ... vocabulary failing... "lack-of-gumption".

LanaiHoward: Osc, Diana is a dancer, not a forensic psychologist. She's not particularly experienced in ancient culture. Should she have expected the assault?

AGplusone: He'd have ultimately committed a battery somewhere else, to someone else, if he ever got romantically involved, wouldn't he?

OscagneTX: ?

Bookman99R has entered the room.

Merfilly27: I need to go...exceptionally distracted today

Merfilly27: have fun all

OscagneTX: 'night, Merf.

Merfilly27 has left the room.

OscagneTX: Howdy, Rusty.

Bookman99R: thanks, David

aggirlj: Hi Rusty.

Bookman99R: howdy, Y'all

Kultsi KN: Hi to all the newcomers

Bookman99R: wha'd I miss?

aggirlj: That's a good question David, anybody else who's gotten that far.

BPRAL22169: "Enabler" is a specialized term in a codependent relationship. I think you would have a hard time showing the Diana was filling a formal role like that. I think the interpretation that she was inadequate in coping with

AGplusone: And, without Diane, he'd have done it cold turkey, without her support and friendship. Maybe had to head off into Coventry, where they'd have shot him -- too much trouble.

BPRAL22169: a personality outside her experience works better.

LanaiHoward: "Enabler" can go too far, reminding of some 12-step zealots -- the kind that tell teetotalers that they are in denial of their alcoholism and are trying to escape it

aggirlj: I frankly don't see her as an enabler. I see her as a person who knows she's with someone who might be unstable.

Bookman99R: to some 12-steppers, _everyone_ is an addict

OscagneTX: If y'all say so. I still think she was wishy-washy. *shrug*

BPRAL22169: Yeah -- there's something comparable in the AA thing, I think. Alcoholic was one of the firstr "games" defined in TA, and anyone coming into contact with an alcoholic can assume the five defined player roles in the game.

LanaiHoward: Initially, I don't think she had much of a clue with what she was dealing with. She's in a society where maladjustment is rare.

BPRAL22169: But even people who aren't in the game at all might look from the outside and with only short exposure as if he were playing one of the roles.

BPRAL22169: Look, we bend our behaviors toward the people we associate with.

aggirlj: How do you deal with someone who died over a century ago and is here, in his body or not?

BPRAL22169: That's the way we "do" association.

Bookman99R: The "how he appeared on her doorstep" was too thin to do much with

moultonfcx: Depends on the person

OscagneTX: I also think Perry was closed minded. But about 99% of the population seems that way to me.

Bookman99R: at least at the point I am at

AGplusone: She had a choice. Could have done what the author suggests most women would have done. Left him figuratively in the social snowstorm. Moved on. How did it hurt her not to move on?

LanaiHoward: Jane, maybe not died -- but consider current experience with people from an isolated culture thrown into the contemporary one. Cultural shocl is real...

BPRAL22169: The way RAH worked that mutual attraction didn't seem very convincing to me.

AGplusone: The fall in love at first sight, Bill?

LanaiHoward: the taboo that is really a safety rule can kill quickly

BPRAL22169: Bellamy did it better in Looking Backward -- implausible from a 20th century realistic standpoint, but plausible in the romantic era it was written in.

AGplusone: Like Deety and Zack? Or Robert and Leslyn?

Kultsi KN: Like me and my ex...

BPRAL22169: I will buy love at first sight -- but it has to be portrayed as "at first sight" and not as a dawning realization days later.

BPRAL22169: Not enough cues to set up the trope, IMO

LanaiHoward: How many people in this culture are really prepared to start working cross-culturally on a moment's notice?

aggirlj: I'm with you Bill. I don't get the feeling it was love at first sight.

AGplusone: He did it better in Number of the Beast, but everyone thinks that's impossible too, yet -- it happens.

Bookman99R: Motherthing says "Hi!" - I got her slaving away while I loaf ;-)

BPRAL22169: I think we could chalk it up to inexperience on Heinlein's part.

aggirlj: I've witnessed it.

OscagneTX: "Howdy" to Motherthing.

BPRAL22169: I see what he's trying to do -- and it's not impossible it would take people awhile to figure out what is going on in their heads, but it miscues the reader to what's going on.

AGplusone: Which is more likely: Immediate "I love you, let's get married/jump in bed" or realization, followed by a time, before declaration?

aggirlj: Well there's lust and then there's love.

BPRAL22169: Which is more likely"? I'm not sure that question has any meaning -- both happen and are both thus 100% likely, except in a statistical sense.

OscagneTX: Or perhaps she's such a well-adjusted and free-thinking person, that as long as someone is not actively unpleasant she's okay with going to bed with them.

Bookman99R: I'm on a 12-year-long one night stand, myself

AGplusone: or eros and agape you'll like Time Enough For Love when you get to it.

OscagneTX: No marriage, right?

OscagneTX: And then he mistook the going to bed for love and marriage,

BPRAL22169: No, I remember talking with a 60+ year old who fell in love on first meeting.

moultonfcx: Consider that Perry was unconscious when Diana first saw him and he was not in top form when he first saw here. So given the progression of the story I find it all just barely plausible.

OscagneTX: and she didn't have the heart to set him straight.

LanaiHoward: In the sixties &seventies, I certainly remember people jumping in bed first, to see if they were compatible before getting into serious conversation

AGplusone: Waiting a while for the declaration is less dramatic, harder to protray ... less interesting as a plot device.

OscagneTX: *shrug*

BPRAL22169: She said it was because he "smelled like almonds."

BPRAL22169: Further deponent sayeth not.

AGplusone: So I'll agree it's less interesting plotwise.

Bookman99R: It didn't work much better that way, either - did it Howard? (although more fun up front, I concede)

AGplusone: Hey, she "saved his life." there's naturally going to be some dependance, some affinity.

aggirlj: I can tell you that I've been wondering if they ever get to that point. So you;ve answered it.

AGplusone: Hi, Fred, btw!

moultonfcx: Hi

Bookman99R: 'Lo, Fred

LanaiHoward: Rusty, to this day, I'm not sure -- I don't think it generalizes, other that (admittedly a small sample) that seemed the standard rule for every graduate of Smith I ever met.;-)

Bookman99R: Not criticizing, Howard - I did it bed first, meself

OscagneTX: *sigh* I get the idea that I missed a lot when I missed the '60s.

AGplusone: Take an example: you meet your best friend's girl, and realize you're in love. How often do you (1) declare immediate love, or (2) wait until he screws it up so you can step in ...

AGplusone: What's more likely?

LanaiHoward: one of the more insightful things came on a second evening, when we both thought I had the "hots", then discovered I wasn't too functional -- and turned out to have a 103-degree fever. That my friend switched to taking care...

aggirlj: More likely and prudent would be waiting.

LanaiHoward: was significant. Mind you, I also dated an increasingly psychotic woman once -- and on one weekend got a high fever from a sinus infection. We hallucinated together.

AGplusone: Tha's okay, Joe. I missed the 60s too. Mired in the 50s, watching the children play.

LanaiHoward: Osc, if it makes you feel better, these are mostly tales from the early to mid seventies

aggirlj: I missed the 60's but then there was the 70's.

OscagneTX: pfft... at least I am excused in that I wasn't born yet... %^)

LanaiHoward: excuses, excuses. Always excuses. You learned about casual nudity in utero, right?

AGplusone: I still don't see any detriment to Diane. She's number one in her field. Continues working. In her spare time she's nice to a kitten she pulled out of the snow.

OscagneTX: Don't you have to remember something for it to be said that you learned it?

Bookman99R: are we using "love" by RAH's definition, or by Hollyweird's, or another?

OscagneTX: good point, Rusty.

BPRAL22169: I'm sure he had read "What is Man" by that time, but I'm not sure he's using Twain's definition in FUTL.

BPRAL22169: This seemed to me like Hollywood hormones-love.

Bookman99R: I believe in lust at first ogle, certainly

LanaiHoward: ;-)Rusty, but the greatest of martial artists operate from the Void, where there is no thought and no time

AGplusone: The beauty of the dancing scene ... did it resonnate with anyone?

aggirlj: Me.

BPRAL22169: Description of Sally Rand is what struck me.

Bookman99R: "tHE SWORD WHICH DOES NOT SEEK TO CUT ITSELF..." AND ALL THAT, EH?

Bookman99R: opps - sorry

LanaiHoward: yes. I pictured some dancers I have known that seem to defy physics

LanaiHoward: Wonder what Spider and Jeanne Robinson think of it?

aggirlj: In a few words he, RAH, managed to suspend time.

LanaiHoward: not quite the Stardance.

BPRAL22169: Pure eros

AGplusone: Compare it to Waldo . . . "after" or the descriptions in Menace from Earth ...

AGplusone: As good, better, worse?

LanaiHoward: Jane, that's a good description -- I can't explain how some dancers seem to suspend gravity, or at least gravity over time

Bookman99R: same way Micheal Jordan did it, Howard? Or Lynn Swann?

LanaiHoward: I've seen more Swann than Jordan, but yes...the great wide receivers seem to be able to float up there for a time not limited by Newton.

OscagneTX: -hydrogen inflated sports equipment-

Bookman99R: Although Swann had a dance background, to be sure

aggirlj: :-D

AGplusone: Wonder what Jeanne Robinson would do if she chorographed something for a Centennial performance ...

AGplusone: eo?

aggirlj: [I will start my conditioning now]

LanaiHoward: Not familiar with Swann's background specifically, but I know there have been experiments with ballet for NFL players. Presumably, the reverse would simply result in *squish*

Bookman99R: Swann mentioned his dance background at his Hall of Fame speech

Aurorax13 has left the room.

OscagneTX: How about a break?

Bookman99R: Sumo would be more appropriate for some of 'em...

aggirlj: Okay.

Bookman99R: sure

OscagneTX: Ten minutes?

aggirlj: Fine

moultonfcx: OK

Bookman99R: works

OscagneTX: I've got x:58. So everyone be back x+1:08.

Dehede011: Go for it.

Kultsi KN: I can't stay awake, so I bid y'all good night.

OscagneTX: And Jane...

LanaiHoward: Sumo wrestlers may look clumsy -- sumo itself is not necessarily so

OscagneTX: this would be a good time to voice your concern.

OscagneTX: since the topic is interrupted?

OscagneTX: 'night, K.

Kultsi KN: G'nite all!

Kultsi KN has left the room.

Dehede011: Nite

AGplusone: While we're on break, I just reread the long paragraph describing the dance ... it's barely a page . . . and I'm beginning to see what skating would add to it.

aggirlj: Actually Joe, it's going very well.

OscagneTX: Ok.

AGplusone: The nullification of gravity in part ... same thing with 1/6th weight in Menace ... and Waldo's dance.

AGplusone: I suppose what they do in ballet or modern dance is the slo-mo, which has that effect.

BPRAL22169: RAH had a think about a low-gee ballet scene he talked about putting into a story for a long time before he did it.

BPRAL22169: "thing" I meant

AGplusone: yes

AGplusone: The spotlight, the darkness around, fools the eye.

LanaiHoward: I wonder if anyone has tried, even in the limited space, low-gravity dance moves? I'd think it even more likely of the Russians, given a chance

BPRAL22169: I'm not so sure that there is any actual "violation of physics" involved so much as that our time-sense changes when we are englamoured.

AGplusone: Write and ask Jeanne.

BPRAL22169: Relativity -- we change as observers

Bookman99R: "They do it with mirrors"? ;-)

BPRAL22169: Adrenalin does that too.

AGplusone: My memory of reading the passage in FUTL is "longer" which indicates that I probably read it very slowly like reading poetry.

OscagneTX: Are we back to Tian's smoke?

AGplusone: Could be. "Smoke" would enhance the effect.

AGplusone: Visually, forget about halucigenically (sp?)

Bookman99R: alcohol could effect it, too, come to that

AGplusone: Example: in All That Jazz during the scene where they use it.

AGplusone: "Fly With Us" or whatever the number is called.

BPRAL22169: I've seen an adagio dancer use smoke very effectively -- until the smoke got too dense to see. I wonder if the low lighting and mist render it "dream-like"

AGplusone: I think so

BPRAL22169: Maybe tricks the mind into thinking it's night in the forest when we're supposed to be asleep?

OscagneTX: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand.... we're back. How would you compare the dancing bits to Stardancer?

moultonfcx: Often it is background reference points that help us understand movement and if those are obscured we perceive differentlyl

AGplusone: "finally the colors faded and the screen went dark . . . A dim finger of light appeared and picked out a small figure far back."

Bookman99R: geometric illusion got a piece of that, maybe? Worked for Escher

BPRAL22169: Yes -- I was thinking about the visual system and discrimination.

AGplusone: at page 24

LanaiHoward: it occurs to me that the "floating" I've seen, in sports or dance, is across the field of vision. Some visual hysteresis?

Bookman99R: I am beginning to thik it's a combo, Howard

Bookman99R: peception-technique-geometry...

BPRAL22169: Could be that focusing on the target causes you to lose the background referents

BPRAL22169: It's the contrast of the moving target against the background that grabs primates' eyes.

AGplusone: I liked the juxtaposition of that sceen with what immediately follows: "a blob of mayonnaise which had dropped on her tummy" and so on.

AGplusone: scene

BPRAL22169: Comedy

AGplusone: makes you smile

LanaiHoward: Osc, aside from the visual, Stardance was a philosophical demonstration. Was Diana's?

Bookman99R: Situational tension, too? As in "It doesn't work of you just jump, you gotta be putting a point on a sequence, or going up for the Jam, or catching that game winner"

aggirlj: Diana's was pure emotion is what I got.

OscagneTX: She was nude, right? That's quite a philisophical statement for the thirties... being nude in front of millions of people.

BPRAL22169: I think she was composing a sequence of emotions.

OscagneTX: I probably misremembered that.

Bookman99R: I don't recall her getting in costume for it, Joe

LanaiHoward: Sequence of emotions -- quote from SiaSL Old One art

AGplusone: "this huyngry little girl was that unearthy glorious creature of a few minutes before."

BPRAL22169: Also from Lost Legacy

AGplusone: hungry, arrgh!

BPRAL22169: It may be significant that the erotic power of the dance didn't have anything to do with the utopia.

aggirlj: Okay, I've got to ask. Semetic tailor, rubbing his hands together. Hmmm.

Bookman99R: I'm handing the keyboard over to Motherthing for a bit

OscagneTX: Howdy, Motherthing.

Dehede011: Howdy

LanaiHoward: Jane, the djinn was already summoned.

Bookman99R: Hi, good to be here

aggirlj: Hi Ma

BPRAL22169: What about it, Jane?

AGplusone: page number, Jane?

aggirlj: Well, it kinda rang a bit off. Now realize I haven't gotten too far into this.

aggirlj: Hold on.

AGplusone: or yeah, at 49

BPRAL22169: Comic stereotype -- we're hypersensitized to it now because of the holocaust; people didn't read it the same way in 1938 that we do now.

LanaiHoward: I never reacted to the tailor as Jewish -- struck me as Lebanese or maybe Syrian

aggirlj: Alright.

BPRAL22169: There is a comparable example for our current pc culture.

BPRAL22169: "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy."

aggirlj: I love that show

AGplusone: rag trade stereotypes existed as late as the Lemmon movie, Hold The Tiger ... watch it, and it got an Oscar ... hell, the Godfadder got an Oscar.

aggirlj: Okay, got to get back into the time frame.

BPRAL22169: Its merits aside, it makes extensive use of stereotypes that might become unacceptable

AGplusone: "lemme make him an offer he can't refuse"

aggirlj: I keep thinking of Woody Allen's Sleeper.

OscagneTX: Well... what is it Kate said Thu? That religion in general, or

Judeo-Christianism in particular had been "outlawed"? That she felt for some reason that anybody practicing those would be reconditioned?

Dehede011: Dave, show him the silver and the lead

BPRAL22169: I'm afraid Kate may not have read the book very carefully, if she said that.

moultonfcx: It says explicitly the opposite

Dehede011: Yes, I was wanting to ask. I don't remember it being that extreme

OscagneTX: I was having trouble getting her point. Thus... the question.. %^)

BPRAL22169: You don't hear much about it because it is "private sphere" and it's not something Diane is interested in -- pretty much all Perry has a chance to know about directly.

moultonfcx: It does say something about religious indoctrination

AGplusone: It's part of the 'privacy sphere' and wouldn't properly be commented upon. Perhaps the evangelical aspect might, if practiced and if it became obnoxious

OscagneTX: Anyway... if religion's been blended out, perhaps Semitic was referring to the part of the world the guy was from... not his culture/religion/background/whatever.

aggirlj: I like the idea of a United States Banking system.

LanaiHoward: cheerfully thinking about the shock at Walter Winchell, and then trying to think what her reaction would be to paparazzi-- but also the celebrity culture

BPRAL22169: I gather that evangelical outreach would be tolerated -- though not many might pay attention -- until it stopped being preaching the word and started being converstion by the sword.

AGplusone: I rather think the Semitic gentleman is as Jewish as the Jew of Malta

AGplusone: And Diane didn't comment on it.

AGplusone: Hence: tolerance

OscagneTX: Hrm. How about this as brainstorming... RAH liked jarring us with racial or stereotype characters, right? Putting in hints that Rod was black, or that Eunice was dark, or that the President is Nichelle Nichols...

BPRAL22169: The indispensable minimum convention for the proctors to set in is measurable damage.

OscagneTX: Perhaps a first shot at it with the Semitic Gentleman?

aggirlj: Good point

LanaiHoward: I actually met Winchell when I was 7 or so. absolutely cracked up my father when he asked (in fromt of him) what I thought of him, and I said I found him boring. Winchell got red and started laughing that very few would say that

BPRAL22169: I dunno -- it's not his characteristic way of doing that. He had unexpected racial types; this was a conventional schmatta tailor.

AGplusone: "He's one part artist and three parts businessman" with her lips barely moving. Is that a slam?

BPRAL22169: It's a Stepin Fetchit role -- and he avoided those in his later writing. That's part of why it stands out.

aggirlj: From her point of view I would say so.

moultonfcx: But read in 1939 would it have stood out??

BPRAL22169: Could he have been trying to evoke Shylock? Doesn't seem to fit.

aggirlj: I've learned that very talented writers never put anything in that doesn't have a meaning.

LanaiHoward: again, check the Jewish assumption. The character would have fit just fine into an Arab or Persian bazaar.

AGplusone: I don't think it would have stood out. Consider in Magic Inc the portrayal of the mobster, not long after.

BPRAL22169: Maybe he was trying to show some degree of cultural continuity with his own world.

BPRAL22169: But, Howard, there is no "nuancing" that would let us say it is anything other than the comic stereotype it seems to be.

Bookman99R: Arab or Persian is the feeling I got from the description.

LanaiHoward: right--so why put more information into the stereotype than we had? Are we projecting PC?

OscagneTX: Perhaps... since it was his first work... he didn't even think of it. He needed a tailor. Isn't "tailor" a traditionally Jewish occupation? I ask from ignorance, not trying to make a point.

moultonfcx: Compare that passage with the passage on 239 about the Anti-Semitic argument as it relates to interest and banking

AGplusone: I think he's Jewish. No doubt. Now if he were selling rugs ...

AGplusone: or tents . . .

BPRAL22169: (Then he's be Gurdfieff...)

AGplusone:

moultonfcx: Thomas Sowell wrote a book in which he discussed the reasons why various ethnic groups be predominate in certain profession for several generations after first immigration in large numbers.

Bookman99R: He seemed more of a salesman than a tailor, that's why the Persian or Arabic bazaar type feel for me.

AGplusone: Exactly. My grandfather was a tailor. which was where he could find work

AGplusone: And after you stitch them, next step up is selling 'em

moultonfcx: Or perhaps the reverse for custom work.

BPRAL22169: OK -- you're discussing why it's plausible it might be there, but this appears in a book, and it's a literary device.

LanaiHoward: From experience , learning to edit one's own book and ask "Why on earth did I say that?

LanaiHoward: is learned...was RAH at that point?

AGplusone: Agree ... just as a Dutchman is the patroon in the Venus short story

BPRAL22169: Ginny said he had the attitude that he doesn't write better on one day than another, and his general philosophy was to say it right the first time and then never go back unless you absolutely have to.

LanaiHoward: Or Mongols being overrepresented in your neighborhood Horde

moultonfcx: Using stereotypes that already exist in the readers mind can be a quick way to advance a story.

AGplusone: Why does Pournelle's Falkenberg have a German name?

LanaiHoward: Hmmm...differs from my own experience and that of other professional writers. Self-criticism and rewrite is both valuable -- and a dangerous trap

BPRAL22169: Let me advance a theory: he wanted to show that bargaining and business exist in his utopian future even though a lot of the apparatus has changed.

AGplusone: The more things change, the more they stay the same ?

BPRAL22169: So he evoked an image that says "bargaining and business" instead of talking around it.

BPRAL22169: To me, that shows writerly instincts.

LanaiHoward: :-)Thinking of cross-cultural stereotype confusion....H*y*m*a*n K*a*p*l*a*n's essay on "Julius Scissor"

AGplusone: We're good at being schmatta tradesmen, why change? Nu?

AGplusone: the same reason why Morrie's family has a few lawyers ... who are good at those things.

AGplusone: Referring to RSG

aggirlj: In his utopia there was still creativity and profit. With a stipend some would be satisfied. But what a boring world that would be.

AGplusone: "Scissor" last name used to be Schoenheit, right, Howard?

Reilloc has entered the room.

OscagneTX: Howdy.

AGplusone: Hi, LN, vas ist los?

Reilloc: Hi, Dave

aggirlj: Hi LN.

Reilloc: Patterson ordered me to attend.

Reilloc: Hi, Jane

LanaiHoward: no, Caesar

BPRAL22169: Hey, I merely suggested the opportunity to improve us all.

aggirlj: :-)

Reilloc: No, I said "attend," not "leave"

BPRAL22169: So confusing that way...

BPRAL22169: We were just talking about the Jewish tailor stereotype in FUTL

AGplusone: I asked Thursday (I understood Howard) if anyone had taken the trouble to play with the chessmen, cards, etc., on the economic examples. No one said 'yes' which I assume meant mainly that it made sense the way it was put ... anyone

AGplusone: care to comment?

Reilloc: Once I read it, I'll have all your questions answered.

Reilloc: I own it, I just can't get into reading these days.

BPRAL22169: I dind't actually get out cards -- but it made sense from the description.

AGplusone: There was some talk in AFH on how the example doesn't work at the margins if trade is considered, exploitation, etc.

BPRAL22169: The mechanics are just simple arithmetic you can do in your head.

Reilloc: What's the exercise?

AGplusone: What would a government do, frex, if there was a trade imbalance in Heinlein's SC theory to negate that effect, I wondered?

BPRAL22169: He gives a card game that illustrates the workings of a Social Credit=based economy,

moultonfcx: It seems easier to put in all in a spreadsheet, but I was not impressed by what was written in the book.

AGplusone: There's a long economic lecture graphically portrayed on SC for several pages ... using markers, etc. to demonstrate

Reilloc: Kind of a "Go Fish" deal where they give you the fish and you spend the hand throwing them back?

BPRAL22169: Depends on which way the trade imbalance runs. You could have your storehouses stocking greater amounts of stuff.

AGplusone: How so ...Fred. Yes, in sum, LN.

BPRAL22169: That particular problem was dealt with quite extensively in the 19th century.

AGplusone: Why wouldn't the government simply prohibit the trade that leads to imbalance?

moultonfcx: For example I would have expected more of a discussion of manufacturing cost curves

Reilloc: The dormant commerce clause

BPRAL22169: It's "private sphere."

AGplusone: You have a long history of excise taxes.

BPRAL22169: The government doesn't have the power to prohibit

AGplusone: Sure it does. It prohibits the banks from writing money from the inkwells.

BPRAL22169: I don't think that's quite the same thing. In outlawing fractional reserve banking, the government was preventing a fraud

Dehede011 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Not quite the same thing as telling a private individual he can't engage in a particular trade so long as that trade doesn't produce measurable 'damage'

AGplusone: On page 239, under Dumping From Abroad, the answer he posits is "cease to manufacture the type of articles being dumped on us, and pay for them [only] with our own currency. We gain the increment in real wealth.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Everyone. How does SC-1938 compare with LL's bank on New Beginnings in TEFL?

AGplusone: Somebody got told to cease manufacturing, and somebody else got told to not pay for them in foreign currency.

BPRAL22169: Nope, if goods come in cheap from outside, it becomes uneconomical to manufacture domestically -- invididuals cease produtino for economic reasons. No prohibition is implied.

AGplusone: Maybe

Aurorax13 has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Heinlein's answer to that "problem" is "it's not a problem."

Reilloc: So, you just kiss your manufacturing capital outlay goodbye with a smile?

Aurorax13: hi everyone (again)

AGplusone: Well, we're being dumped on with cheap textile goods, the schmatta. Does the Semitic gentleman give up his trade voluntarily?

AGplusone: Or does he go solely to distribution and retail?

BPRAL22169: There's a natural limit on outflow of capital: when someone wants to dump a good on you at low prices, it's to your interest to stock up on the cheap goods -- but your own interest says there's a limit to how much backstock you

BPRAL22169: you want to accumulate.

Reilloc: Natural limit?

BPRAL22169: So, in theory, every penny you spend on the good at the low end of price is a future profit derived from lowered cost of raw goods.

Reilloc: I'm out of business in a blink.

BPRAL22169: Yeah -- decisions about how much back stock to accumulate are based on current availability plus future plans.

aggirlj: And demand.

BPRAL22169: Yeah, well, demand is factored into future plans.

OscagneTX: Everybody... I've got to go now, for my step-dad's birthday party. I'm going to leave me client connected to keep a log,

AGplusone: What do you do, in the fact of the overproduction situation if someone is dumping? Take a vacation on the 'heritage' ...

BPRAL22169: If you're not planning to manufacture jeans next year, you won't want to backstock much denim.

AGplusone: We sure will, Joe.

OscagneTX: But if it SNAFUs, I'll trust David and David to keep it. Have a good night, all.

aggirlj: Bye Joe

BPRAL22169: David, I'm not sure what you're asking.

BPRAL22169: You mean if you're a producer of the goods someone else isdumping?

AGplusone: I simply want to know how the more complicated problem works out in the short and the long runs. RAH says trade imbalances inevitably lead to wars.

Reilloc: I think he's saying is it reasonable to abandon generations of business while your government sits by and does nothing.

AGplusone: Maybe it's not the schmatta tradesmen that go out of business, but the textile mills in the south, but how does that affect the society?

LanaiHoward: g'night all...too many cats on keyboard and trackball

AGplusone: I have no brief for Darlington or JP Stevens, but what do they do?

aggirlj: Bye Howard

BPRAL22169: That kind of thing has happened in our world; there are, of course, no absolute guarantees that everyone makes the best possible decisions.

LanaiHoward has left the room.

Bookman99R has left the room.

AGplusone: IOW, buggy whip factories go out of business, hard cheese, no guarantee that the Stevens family continues to run the community?

BPRAL22169: I think the Covenant government has positive options -- using some of the capital that would go to the heritage disbursement, for example, to place buy orders to local industries it wants to encourage.

Reilloc: Subsidies?

Reilloc: For goods it doesn't consume immediately>?

Kim Kinnison999 has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Possibly.

moultonfcx: Wasn't it Schumpeter that referred to the Creative Destruction of Captialism

BPRAL22169: Though I think there's a certain danger in the state ordering goods for which there is no current demand -- OTOH there are some large-scale activities for which one needs a stockpile.

aggirlj: Got to go. See you all later.

Reilloc: Later, Jane

aggirlj has left the room.

BPRAL22169: If I correctly understand the social background, it's the government's job to be able to plan for longer terms than individuals or smaller groups.

moultonfcx: Economic activity has a function as a signalling device and having the government messing around seems to mess up the feedback loops.

BPRAL22169: That's a main job of the utopian socialist state.

AGplusone: OTOH, since 'profit' is flexible, maybe the large profits of JP Stevens have to be adjusted to the small profits of the dumpers ... always a choice. The Stevens family has its own Social Heritage payments. No one will starve, or

BPRAL22169: Yeah, Fred: positive feedback mechanisms in a negative feedback field.

AGplusone: lose educational opportunities.

Aurorax13: well it was interesting (and confusing) but I need to feed children and get ready for work

Aurorax13: wish these chats were on Fridays

BPRAL22169: Hmm. The Stevens family has taken over some of the functions of a socialist government...

Aurorax13: Have a good nite all

Aurorax13 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: When you get right down to it, economic systems are all complex adaptive systems, and all that a government CAN do is to interfere with a negative feedback loop, by the nature of the beast.

AGplusone: Who says the economic system has to encourage the preservation of fortunes of families over generations?

Kim Kinnison999: those families, usually, heh

BPRAL22169: So the question becomes, if you're going to damage thigns no matter what you do, how much damage do you want to tolerate?

AGplusone: Maybe JP Stevens ought to get out of textile manufacturing and invest in space exploration?

AGplusone: And let Indonesia make textiles ...

moultonfcx: And some one else than Indonesia invest capital in other things

moultonfcx: such as space travel

AGplusone: So the objection to the system is simply that of entrenched capital?

BPRAL22169: That works very well -- if you're thinking of the world as an economic system; once you inject national priorities, it becoems a different matter.

AGplusone: That doesn't wish to dislocate and reinvest?

AGplusone: What's the national priority? Preserve, protect and defend JP Stevens?

BPRAL22169: Well -- there are a lot of objections to SC that don't have anything to do with economics, strictly speaking.

AGplusone: What's good for General Motors is good for the USA, eh?

BPRAL22169: It's well outside the box, and it takes a l ot to get people to adopt alien ways.

Reilloc: Substitute "Microsoft" for "GM" and say that again, Dave.

AGplusone: Or Brown and Root ...

BPRAL22169: The U.S. has developed a vicious kind of "monopoly capitalism" in which the government is a tool used by industry to create special privileges for itself.

Kim Kinnison999: oh it's well beyond that

AGplusone: It's not that it doesn't work ... it's whose ox is gored, hence the campaign against Uppie Sinclair in California in '36 or '34?

BPRAL22169: 34

BPRAL22169: The EPIC Plan had some problems -- but nothing, I think, that couldn't be worked out.

AGplusone: There's a passage at pp. 240-1 that might apply, depending on how one defines 'raw materials' among other things, dealing with Monopoly ...

AGplusone: I'd like to see it taken to its ultimate implications as a word problem exercise ...

AGplusone: but that probably would require that we look at it in time.

AGplusone: More of a posting discussion ...

moultonfcx: True. Economics is sometimes not as simple as it seems.

BPRAL22169: We bow in your general directdion, o master of understatement

AGplusone: In a critique I've read, there's a distinction between 'monopoly capitalist' and 'enterprize capitalist' made. Does anyone believe RAH ever became a monopoly capitalist?

moultonfcx: I am not sure what you are asking.

AGplusone: Vice licet: Friday?

AGplusone: Vice licet: Friday?

AGplusone: Vide!

BPRAL22169: I can't recall any instance of approved or even tolerated use of government power to crush a competitor.

Kim Kinnison999: Wouldn't a writer always have to be an enterprize capitalist

Kim Kinnison999: ?

AGplusone: I think Friday takes the approach against monopolist capital pretty strongly.

AGplusone: 'monopolist capitalism' = government control to increase power and preserve the monopoly.

Reilloc: Reminds me of a tax appeals hearing I had once...

AGplusone: What I'm getting at is "how far from Social Credit' did RAH ever really get?

Reilloc: ...lawyer said, by way of prefacing his threat to have his client declare bankruptcy and try to discharge the undischargable...

Reilloc: "My client's franchise is touched with the public interest."

Aurorax13 has entered the room.

Aurorax13 has left the room.

Reilloc: I said there was a difference between "touched with the public interest" and being interested in putting the touch on the public.

BPRAL22169: Good one.

moultonfcx: I think that RAH got a long ways from Social Credit, based in part on the quote in the back o f the book

AGplusone: Pretty close to the argument of the insurance company lawyers in "Life-line" that we are hear to uphold the public interest ...

AGplusone: here

AGplusone: Which quote?

moultonfcx: Page 249

moultonfcx: Bottom of page

AGplusone: The 'pragmatic libertarian'

AGplusone: slim soup

AGplusone: All he said is he's hard-headed and pragmatic

BPRAL22169: His political associations were strategic alliances, not religious dogmas.

AGplusone: means he knows that absent revolution there ain't gonna be a Social Credit economy instituted

Kim Kinnison999: explore pragmatic and hard headed lol..that's the writer I read

Reilloc: He claimed to be hard-headed and pragmatic?

AGplusone: Well, he was talking to Bester, who may have believed it.

AGplusone: :-)

Reilloc: Probably just me but how people describe themselves isn't very convincing.

AGplusone: Why, LN? Everyone knows I'm just an all around good guy don't they?

AGplusone: Jist like I always say ...

moultonfcx: Well if you say so ....

Reilloc: Everybody says you're an all-around good guy, Dave.

AGplusone: I was looking at the German menu up in San Jose, Fred. Wanna go back there next time we have a Con up there. When's BayCon?

moultonfcx: BayCon is in May

AGplusone: 'kay ... good menu

moultonfcx: May 28-31 to be exact

Reilloc: Why do they call science fiction get-togethers, "cons?"

Reilloc: I know they are, but why come out and admit it?

BPRAL22169: So they don't have to decide whether it's a "conference" or a "Convention."

BPRAL22169: Laziness, rather than criminality.

AGplusone: and they avoid the confidence game onus ?

AGplusone: nice excuse to get together though

Kim Kinnison999: prices are clearly stated, satisfaction is NOT guaranteed, Confidence game is a little strong. heh

AGplusone: LOL, Kim

AGplusone: Somebody else have a topic on FUTL?

AGplusone: we got 26 minutes to go

Reilloc: Yes.

AGplusone: Okay, ga

Reilloc: Is there a plot or is it all just sophomoric economic rambling?

Reilloc: I certainly hope that wasn't an argumentative articulation...

AGplusone: There's a minor plot ... not a compelling one. Basically it's Perry's social adjustment to a world without some of the prejudices

moultonfcx: And as part of that Perry's ability to handle the relationships with Olga and Diana

Reilloc: Olga and Diana...

Reilloc: Korbut and Feinstein?

AGplusone: In a way, it's his creation of an alternate for Coventry ...space, where our malcontents will be able to go instead of Coventry.

Reilloc: Does he venture to say why it's good for everybody to always agree?

AGplusone: No, two female characters he encounters ... 'teachers or mentors' ... it's the standard utopic teacher-student set up.

Reilloc: I think we talked, the last time I was at one of these about how if you get rid of the bad, you haven't gotten rid of the bad.

Reilloc: The new lowest behavior is now bad.

AGplusone: I don't think he'd worked that one, "to th stars with them" out yet.

Reilloc: Oh, well. I'll probably finish it to be able to say I did.

AGplusone: Bearing in mind the unemployed, dispossed, etc., are the pioneers

AGplusone: the 'dissatisfied' who don't wish to necessarily agree ....

moultonfcx: Or those who are persecuted

BPRAL22169: "...the wretched refuse of your teeming shores..."

AGplusone: Either have a Coventry on Earth or the Stars, take your pick

Reilloc: I still don't get this coventry stuff.

Reilloc: Prison's prison.

Reilloc: Make it pretty, wall it off, disavow it, it's prison.

BPRAL22169: The idea of a prison without bars intrigued him -- and others at the same time.

AGplusone: It's where one throws the rabble, before it becomes a rabble in arms

BPRAL22169: Coventry really isn't a prison, though, it's just a place where the Covenant isn't, the way Hell is Hell because it's where God isn't.

Reilloc: He was really into coming to terms with symptoms instead of solving problems.

AGplusone: and puts the Social Credit system into effect

BPRAL22169: No, he wasn't interested in symptoms at all.

AGplusone: So we make a Heaven out of Hell ...

Reilloc: As long as politics is people, and economics is, too, it's all just bandaids.

BPRAL22169: If god comes into hell, then it's heaven.

BPRAL22169: By defintion.

AGplusone: on Mars or Ceti Alfa Five

BPRAL22169: I'm going to cut out a little early -- have fun y'all.

Reilloc: Me, too.

Reilloc: The winning lottery numbers are calling.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

AGplusone: I'll hang until the log is done ...

Reilloc: Night, Dave and others...

Reilloc has left the room.

AGplusone: g'nite

DavidWrightSr: No problem Dave. I've got the entire log. Sorry I couldn't participate more.

AGplusone: KIm, Jackie if you're there, Fred?

moultonfcx: yes

Kim Kinnison999: yes

AGplusone: Shall we Sail Beyond the Sunset farther?

AGplusone: or adjourn

moultonfcx: Adjourn is OK with me.

Kim Kinnison999: Yes..I'll try and arrive earlier next time

AGplusone: any question no matter how large or small ... okay. No topic picked that I noticed. Why don't we suggest something by posting it?

AGplusone: Nexxt week

AGplusone: KIm you know where AFH is?

Kim Kinnison999: Yes I can do newsgroups :-)

AGplusone: Log closed at 4:50 OM, PST ...

Kim Kinnison999 has left the room.

AGplusone: Think of something good

AGplusone: Good night from New York David

DavidWrightSr: Good Night All

moultonfcx: Good night

AGplusone has left the room.

moultonfcx has left the room.

End of Discussion Log


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