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Heinlein Readers Discussion Group
Thursday January 22, 2004
For Us, The Living

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Here Begin The Postings


From: "Oscagne" <Oscagne@ev1.net>
Subject: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting-- _For Us the Living_ -- Jan 22, 24
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 1:50 PM

The next RAH-AIM Readers Group chat topic will be _For_Us_the_Living_, scheduled for January 22 and 24, 8pm and 4pm U.S. Central Time (respectively). Anyone wishing to join us for the first time can find out how by visiting http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info.

I apologize for waiting so long in organizing this one, but I thought it best to wait for the dissipation of the hangovers caused by the confluence of the holidays and transoceanic visitors.

_For_Us_the_Living_ finally came to us about a month ago, and we've only begun hashing out the implications. One of the things that struck me in the hubbub surrounding the publication, is that almost all of the critiques and other peripheral material regarding FUTL has held the book to a different standard that all of Heinlein's other work. Almost universally, the fan community has said, "This is not a very good book, so let's not judge this work on its own merits, let us judge it as a precursor to later works." Is this a fair way to criticize this book, or are we changing our standards to coddle the memory of (for most of us) our favorite author? If we are indeed coddling, do you think RAH would approve?

Had this book been published when first written, do you imagine that RAH's writing career would have been much changed?
 

-- 
Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
wanna read a story?  http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss
or see my goofy website?  http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm

The next Heinlein Readers Group chats will be:
_For Us the Living_ on
Thursday, January 22 at 8:00 p.m. central and
Saturday, January 24 at 4:00 p.m. central.
See http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#info
to participate.


From: "jeanette" <wolfj@webtv.net>
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting-- _For Us the Living_ --Jan...
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 3:04 PM

I don't think RAH would have thought much of any criticism of the book if it had somehow been published late in his career. He didn't want it published. I am sure he would agree that it does not compare to his later books. I am happy to have read it as a fan, but I would not recommend it to anyone except as a curiosity.

It would be interesting to know how critics with a 1930's mind set would have reacted, comparing it to what was available then. In my opinion science fiction has become more interesting and Heinlein is one of the reasons.

Jeanette



From: "Mitch Wagner" <mitchw@sff.net>
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting-- _For Us the Living_ -- Jan 22, 24
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 3:42 PM

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:50:02 -0600, Oscagne wrote:

> _For_Us_the_Living_ finally came to us about a month ago, and we've only
> begun hashing out the implications.  One of the things that struck me in the
> hubbub surrounding the publication, is that almost all of the critiques and
> other peripheral material regarding FUTL has held the book to a different
> standard that all of Heinlein's other work.  Almost universally, the fan
> community has said, "This is not a very good book, so let's not judge this
> work on its own merits, let us judge it as a precursor to later works."  Is
> this a fair way to criticize this book, or are we changing our standards to
> coddle the memory of (for most of us) our favorite author?  If we are indeed
> coddling, do you think RAH would approve?
> 

I don't think it's coddling -- it's just an accurate perception. The book is fascinating for Heinlein enthusiasts and scholars. It MIGHT be interesting for scholars and enthusiasts in other areas, too: the history of the Depression, the American Left, science fiction in general (of course), the Utopian novel.

But it's of virtually no interest to other people.

One newspaper review gave the novel a C+. I'd say that's an average of the two grades the novel SHOULD have received; A+ for Heinlein enthusiasts, F for everybody else.

> Had this book been published when first written, do you imagine that RAH's
> writing career would have been much changed?

Mike the computer calculates that there's a 93% probability, if FUTL had been published, the book would've sank like a rock, and disappeared, read by very few people. Probably there'd be very few copies surviving today, first editions would be collectors' items.

There's a 7 percent probability, however, that the book would've been picked up as a bible by some social movement or another, and Heinlein might have had a career as a very minor political figure.

-- 
Mitch Wagner * http://blog.mitchwagner.com/ * Asked by agents if he had
anything else to tell them, Cusack responded: "Yes, I've got monkeys in my
pants." -- CNN.com, Dec. 19, 2002


From: "David M. Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting-- _For Us the Living_ -- Jan 22, 24
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 9:50 PM

In article <bthkio$7cqk4$1@ID-124148.news.uni-berlin.de>, "Oscagne" <Oscagne@ev1.net> wrote:

> 
> _For_Us_the_Living_ finally came to us about a month ago, and we've only
> begun hashing out the implications.  One of the things that struck me in the
> hubbub surrounding the publication, is that almost all of the critiques and
> other peripheral material regarding FUTL has held the book to a different
> standard that all of Heinlein's other work. 

That of a previously never published, unedited and uncritqued, first novel by a 29-year-old tyro formally educationed to be a naval officer, prematurely retired for disability, who had knocked about for five years at various jobs and following various interests, who later was awarded seven Hugos (three retrospectively, so far . . . ), and the first Nebula Grand Master for lifetime achievement?

I supposed some might say that's unfair, although I have some trouble discerning why. My only explanation, for the sake of argument, is we expect our gods to spring forth full-sized, adult and fully armored with their wisdom from Zeus' tired cranium. We forget what a six or seven-year-old looks like the first time on a bicycle. Wobbly, frightened and, to a parent, very frightening. We forget also that many, if not most, six or seven-year-olds fall the first time and never willingly get back up on the bicycle until they are older.

> Almost universally, the fan
> community has said, "This is not a very good book, so let's not judge this
> work on its own merits, let us judge it as a precursor to later works." 

I'd disagree. Those who have thought about it have said, at worst,

>"this isn't a very good SF novel by contemporary standards." 

But they've also noted history and said the contemporary standards are what they are today in very large part because of what this writer did in an amazingly short time after he found his stride in writing an entertaining "story" after his first effort was rejected. And then they turn and look back over FUTL for signs of that nascent ability to satisfy contemporary standards.

> Is this a fair way to criticize this book, or are we changing our standards to
> coddle the memory of (for most of us) our favorite author? 

Reservations aside ["coddle the memory"?] as to why some have said "let us judge it as precursor," I think it fair to judge it by the standards of 1938.

Let's see: what did we have in 1938 in the "scientification" form for long fiction?

What were the standards then existing?

We had examples of utopic long fiction -- Edward Bellamy's _Looking Backward From 2000 to 1887_, or Herbert George Wells' _When the Sleeper Awakes_ are two examples, both of which are available on Gutenberg. None of which, not so by the way, are in what we consider today as the "novel" form. They uniformly lack the "story" element we demand today and are, what RAH himself in 1947 said they were, merely lectures cloaked in fiction guise. That's all they've ever been since Francis Bacon wrote the first one.

We had the space opera romance -- Edward Elmer "Doc" Smith's first written Lensman SF story, _Galactic Patrol_, had just been serialized in Astounding from September 1937 through February 1938. Doc Smith's fiction today is said to be, among other things, "cliche-ridden," or as using "tired old themes." Dr. Smith, however, invented many of these themes. It is his imitators who made them tired old cliches. They were often totally new when he wrote them. Doc Smith also, it is said by some, populated his stories with _unrealistic_ heroes, "athletic, very intelligent, very gallant" men, often linked or "married to a remarkably beautiful, intelligent red-haired" women. Heh. "Kimball Kinnison" and "Clarissa MacDougal." Heh, again. Of course, as RAH himself pointed out, E.E. Smith was a large, blond, athletic, very intelligent, very gallant man, married to a remarkably beautiful, intelligent red-haired woman named MacDougal. [----> This is me walking away from that point before it pierces me to the root like an April shower.]

I can go on about the lack of today's cultural sensibilities to the plights of women and minorities perceived by reviewers today in both the old classic utopic and the space opera form then contemporaneously being created by Smith, but I won't yet.

What else did we have in *long* fiction form that has survived as worth reading and is read today in the "scientification" field? Anyone? _Odd John_? Does someone who's read it care to describe it? It's in part another utopic type, isn't it? What else?

By what standards do we judge these previous works? By those contemporary to today? Okay, judge them that way too, if we're going to judge Heinlein's FUTL by those standards. If not, then judge Heinlein the way we judge them. Chaucer today is a trite as an "April shower," and have you ever struggled to read the Middle English? The Wif of Bath is insensitive as she can be to today's feminist sensibilities. And don't get me started on "'Tee-hee,' sayde shee." Children do read here.

> If we are indeed
> coddling, do you think RAH would approve?
> 

I don't think it coddling to judge fiction against standards of its own time. I don't think we should restrict our judgment exclusively to those standards either; but I haven't seen a critique that really says much that is beyond the obvious trying to apply other standards.

Frex, Gary Wolfe, one of two reviewers in the latest issue of _Locus_, encapsulates his description of the book as follows:

   ". . . begins with a classic when-the-sleeper wakes scenario, pauses 
for what at times is an archaically charming critique of late-1930s 
mores and sensibilities, and then races impatiently toward pendatic 
unreadibility."

Locus, January 2004, at 19. E.g., the "brain-eater" or whatever the null-content phrase is they love so dearly over on RASFW.

IOW, as one familar with the utopic form might have expected, there ain't as much entertainment as we have come to expect in 2004 from what Spider Robinson calls the "story" here folks. But have you ever read much of H.G. Wells? Try to stay awake sometime reading either of the two utopic works cited above for entertainment some time. I remember plowing through Wells' _A Modern Utopia_ the first time. Zzzzzz. Read the chapter on the Samuari so I might understand _Space Cadet_ a bit better, and promised myself I'd read the rest later. I did, but it was a while later.

Yet then there is the "archaically charming critique" pauses of what Wolfe thinks are merely those archaic late-1930 mores and sensibilities. And if you engage your mind, the Social Credit theories are challenging. I was amazed to read reports of a Peter Uberoth speech during the recent late-nite comedy hour we here in California presented for the amusement of the rest of the world under the guise of a gubernatorial recall election, which sounded as if Uberoth was actually presenting a truncated part of that theory as solution to California's economy problems. But there's not much "entertainment" in that, is there? In fact, as the Robinson forward to FUTL points out, it's hot up there on the soapbox, you have to shout at the top of your lungs to be heard over the babble, and your throat gets tired. You have to sell your birthright for a pot of message that no one listens to very hard. Yet we still read Wells, and Bellamy, and Voltaire and all the way back to Bacon -- but not for "entertainment," some of us.

> Had this book been published when first written, do you imagine that RAH's
> writing career would have been much changed?

Had this book been published when first written, in a form anything close to it as first written, our world might have changed a bit more than we think. Whether Heinlein's writing career would have continued is another question. He probably would have been prosecuted for indecency and sending pornography through the mails, along with his publisher and whatever editor who put his talent into helping Heinlein turn it into a marketable work, so it wasn't. The Social Credit people to whom Heinlein also sent the work for an evaluation didn't publish it either: one doubts somehow that they were interested in the "archaically charming critique" of social mores and attitudes.

Of course, that's the voice we recognize when we read it. Archaic and charming though it may be, that's the voice we next hear in "Life-Line," lambasting, among others, "the good sense and persuasive personality of 'America's Handsomest University President'," from the forelock of his beautiful white hair, the pocket of his smartly tailored trousers, to his women's-club manner, satisfied with ever enhancing his reputation as an intellectual leader. What was his name? President Rufus B. Von Kleinsmid of the University of Southern California, then and today known widely and mainly as a football factory? Nah, musta been some other guy.

That's the voice that entertains us.
If published in 1938, it either would have emerged from editing as a pure political tract utopic fiction, sans the nudity and sexual relationships (and probably much of the "archaically charming critique"); or it would have had to be brought out in Europe by the Olympia Press; and there wasn't time in 1938 for much of a splash to have been made there before September 1, 1939. Imagine what the censors of the Third Reich would have had to say about its degenerate form shortly following the day the Wehrmacht marched under the Arch of Triumph in Paris. I don't imagine Heinlein would have wanted to be living in exile in Paris that day; and I can't imagine him chosing to do so, in any event.

But, by all means, let's criticize it by any standard we wish -- maybe we'll all learn something. That's what the reading group is for.

In a second review that appears in this month's _Locus_, under "Reviews by Divers Hands," by Russell Letson, what is noted is:

   "It's remarkable that so much of the mature writer can be found in 
this first, mostly unsuccessful book: a solid, unshakeable rationalism: 
a willingness to build scenes around lectures (which can be lucid and 
interesting); a Shavian delight in tweaking conventional social 
attitudes; and a breezy, middle-American way with the language." Ibid., 
at 31.

I agree with Mr. Letson that FUTL "may be a book mainly for researchers and enthusiasts, but it's an extraordinarily valuable one, a document showing a crucial point in the process of Heinlein the man becoming Heinlein the writer." Id.

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88


From: "Davis, Joel" <jdavis@ball.com>
To: "David Wright" <dwrighsr@alltel.net>
Subject: RE: Upcoming RAH-AIM Readers Group January 22 and 24
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 7:50 PM

It's worth noting that after its first submission, Heinlein himself never attempt to have it published.

Joel S. Davis

Joel S. Davis, Chief Scientist
Ball Aerospace Systems Engineering Solutions


From: Kate Gladstone (kate@global2000.net)
Subject: they say FOR US, THE LIVING will include a Rev.
Nehemiah Scudder but NOT the tyrant of REVOLT IN 2100
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2003-09-29 22:38:53 PST


As some of us learned at Torcon,

/a/ the lost-then-found Heinlein novel FOR US, THE LIVING (which I *won't* abbreviate to FUTL because my mind's ear persistently hears FUTL as "futile"!) will have a character called "Rev. Nehemiah Scudder" BUT
...

/b/ this Scudder will greatly differ from the person of the same name in published R.A.H works (REVOLT IN 2000/LOGIC OF EMPIRE).

Can those happy few who've already seen FOR US tell me (privately), whether my following speculations/inferences come close to the mark?

WILL THE REAL NEHEMIAH SCUDDER PLEASE STAND UP?

From knowing that the FOR US Scudder differs from the IF THIS GOES ON man,

and from some of R.A.H.'s in-print descriptions of fictional clergyfolk/churches that differed in many ways from the nastiness of the IF THIS GOES ON Scudder & his creed,

I speculate that we will see the following hold true for the Scudder in FOR US, THE LIVING:

/1/ FOR US's Reverend Scudder & his church, I suspect, will (as part of Heinlein's 1939 dream of a future society) preach/practice/represent a belief-system that Heinlein approved/found beneficial - not necessarily a creed that Heinlein would have "believed in"

(at least, not in the sense of "religious belief" as "sign-on-the-dotted-line-that-you-hereby-swear-to-always-think-that-this- creed-completely-and-accurately-represents-reality-now-and-forever"),

but a creed that he'd have regarded as

/a/ well worth believing in (beneficial to the believer & to those around him/her), and
/b/ devoid of serious (or any) ill effects for the individual/group that believed it, the society that included people believing in it, etc.

/2/ the creed/religious practices of FOR US's Scudder (and of the church that he represents) will (I speculate) contain at least one (and probably more than one) of the following:

/a/ nude worship (I very much expect to see that people going to church in FOR US behave like people going to church in the "naked-Fundie-eye-for-an-eye" universe briefly visited in NUMBER OF THE BEAST - ... they arrive in their best attire, then disrobe in an anteroom before worship)

/b/ sex not considered sinful as long as nobody gets hurt, and sexual ignorance therefore not (to say the least) considered a virtue. (I'd expect, for instance, that Sunday-school at the FOR US Scudder church may very well include detailed sex-education, up to and including show-and-tell/live-action laboratory-work.)

/c/ Similarly, I'd expect the FOR US church(es) to view sex as a sacrament, as in later Heinlein fiction - cf. ritual sex in STRANGER (Fosterite inner-circle members, "growing closer" in Mike Smith's Church of All Worlds) and (less famously) in JOB: A COMEDY OF JUSTICE whose sub-title does very clearly call to mind the sub-title of FOR US, THE LIVING: A COMEDY OF CUSTOMS.

(Recall the final portions of JOB - depicting life in a new-and-improved, kinder-and-gentler universe - where Alex, Marga, and their children join a church pastored by a "Rev. M. O. Loch" whose name suggests the Canaanite god Moloch - Canaanite religion involved a lot of sex. Like any self-respecting Canaanite temple, Rev. Loch's church not only features celebratory sex in rituals, but also includes in its hierarchy an order of sacred prostitutes, whose vocation the flock deems not only valid but highly admirable: Alex mentions (as praiseworthy) that his teen-aged daughter aspires to join this order. So I suspect that celebratory sex will feature eminently in rituals/ministry of the religion(s) portrayed in FOR US, THE LIVING.

/d/ core beliefs of the FOR US Scudder church will (I suspect) include what one might call "Heinlein ethics/pragmatics," including skepticism/critical thinking about ALL matters questionable by a human nervous system ... including (especially) matters concerning the church/creed/religion itself.
E.g., I expect that key commandments/teachings/sacred texts of the FOR US Scudder church will strikingly resemble one or more of the following -

--- the NOTEBOOKS OF LAZARUS LONG (particularly those Notebook entries exhorting skepticism/criticism along with close attention to the facts of the universe!)

--- Heinlein's "This I Believe" radio-talk and other things he said/wrote about the importance of working honestly, protecting women and children, "paying it forward," etc.

--- statements on belief/morals/philosophy/critical thinking/"Fair Witnessing"/etc. that we have in STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND.
(I would not, for instance, feel at all surprised to see the FOR US church hierarchy include white-cloaked "Fair Witnesses" - like STRANGER'S Anne - who had trained to observe/describe reality as honestly/accurately as a human nervous system permits)

--- training members to question the sacred texts of the religion itself.
(Imagine a Sunday-school where, right along with memorizing the Bible or parts thereof, kids ALSO learned to find all its mistakes/contradictions/logical failures/signs of multiple authorship, learned to understand the processes of textual corruption, learned to detect/understand the evidences that various Biblical people could not have said/written the books/statements attributed to them, at God's dictation or otherwise ... imagine this, convincingly taught to children, and you'll picture pretty well the attitude I expect a Sunday-school run by FOR US, THE LIVING's Scudder would teach towards *its* *own* sacred texts).

/e/ along with the above - and seemingly (at first) posing a paradox when considered with the skepticism in much of /d/ - I expect that FOR US, THE LIVING's creed will also say things on reality/magic/the "impossible"/etc. that align with the more "occult/pagan/paranormal/white-witchcraft"-sounding parts of WALDO/MAGIC, INC./GLORY ROAD/STRANGER - given that (if I recall correctly) R.A.H.'s interest in magic/the paranormal as a possible science dates at least as far back as the late 1930s.

After all, even in the very scientific-and-pragmatic BEYOND THIS HORIZON (whose society reportedly resembles the FOR US society in major ways), by the end of the novel we find people taking the paranormal VERY seriously indeed: now that they've solved their major survival problems, they seek for further meaning.
(Hmmm ... I wonder if the Heinlein Society's mandate, to explore and foster areas Heinlein found important, includes scientific investigation of psi-powers & reincarnation? Since R.A.H.'s fiction/non-fiction amply documents his interest in researching these matters & his view of their importance - if scientifically studied and NOT accepted as "matters of faith" on weak/uncritically viewed evidence - I hope the Heinlein Society can lead in this area as well (current claims that the military/CIA has long researched "remote viewing" come eerily close to what Heinlein described in his ASSIGNMENT IN ETERNITY story "Project Nightmare"). This hope, which admittedly not all may share, certainly makes me anticipate that psi/etc. may feature (even if only to a minor extent) in FOR US, THE LIVING.

So please, O privileged folks who have already seen the manuscript, let me know (privately, of course)! - have I hit any bulls'-eyes? Or did I shoot 'way too wide of the mark?
If I've scored any hits, David and Bill and all, let me know privately - for I Promise by Saint Poddy Not To Tell!
 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

     Kate Gladstone - Handwriting Repair - kate@global2000.net  
           http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


From: Engr Bohn (BravoOscarHotelNovember@cis.ohio-state.edu)
Subject: Re: they say FOR US, THE LIVING will include a Rev. Nehemiah Scudder but NOT the tyrant of REVOLT IN 2100
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2003-09-30 05:24:02 PST


Good morning, and welcome, Kate,

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Kate Gladstone wrote:

> As some of us learned at Torcon,
>
> /a/ the lost-then-found Heinlein novel FOR US, THE LIVING (which I
> *won't* abbreviate to FUTL because my mind's ear persistently hears FUTL
> as "futile"!) will have a character called "Rev. Nehemiah Scudder" BUT
> ...
>
> /b/ this Scudder will greatly differ from the person of the same name in
> published R.A.H works (REVOLT IN 2000/LOGIC OF EMPIRE).
[...]
[...]
[...]

Given that (we're told) much of what's found in _For Us The Living_ was recycled in other works, my guess is that The Reverend Scudder will not be a sympathetic character. I wouldn't be surprised to find that he's the voice of dissent in the future in which the protagonist finds himself -- that Rev Scudder will bemoan what's become of the world. Or perhaps he'll be a character in 1939 who warns of the loosening morals -- and perhaps our hero agrees, and then after sleeping his way into the future [1] finds himself in a world with quite looser morals and discovers that it hasn't brought about an end to the world.

[1] Hmm. RAH certainly had quite a few Rip van Winkle characters didn't he?

Take care,
cb

-- 
Christopher A. Bohn                        ____________|____________
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/        ' ** ** " (o) " ** ** '
   "In this war it has become clear beyond all doubt that scientific
    research is absolutely essential to national security."
                                          - Vannevar Bush, July 1945


From: Jani (jani@blueyonder.co.uk)
Subject: Re: they say FOR US, THE LIVING will include a Rev. Nehemiah Scudder but NOT the tyrant of REVOLT IN 2100
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2003-09-30 16:04:32 PST
"Kate Gladstone" <kate@global2000.net> wrote in message news:kate-DD8823.01380930092003@syrcnyrdrs-01-ge0.nyroc.rr.com...

> As some of us learned at Torcon,

<snip>


I think you're asking if the major iconoclastic themes are centred on American Christianity.

That's probably a Yes.

Jani



Messages 1-10 from thread

From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)
Subject: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another
Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-26 20:00:10 PST

Today, June 26, 2002, our morning papers told us that yet one more enormous corporation has joined the ranks of overinflated failures unsuccessfully concealled by financial chicanery. Arthur Anderson (where have we heard that name before?), its CPA firm, agressively out in front this time, claims its CFO provided its auditors false information, and its CXO says he's "shocked." [The CFO was fired today; and no doubt soon will be holding a yard sale to defray his legal expenses in emulation of Kenneth "Po-boy" Lay.]

Commentators, probably the same ones who last week were recommending the buying of Worldcon stock, echo those "shocked, simply shocked" claims and call for the "rounding up of the usual suspects" -- a mere "handful" they predicably claim once more.

Robert Heinlein's first large writing effort, manuscripts of which were destroyed, dealt with the economic world and were written at the height of recovery from the last world-wide depression. It was a novel named "For Us, The Living," written ca. 1937, Gifford Opus number 004.

It's sometimes interesting to speculate on what it might have contained. Financial chicanery of this sort reported today isn't a new invention.

For example, one writer admired by Robert Heinlein, whose works he read for pleasure and even kept when he disposed of most of his personal library after moving to Carmel in his last illness (and whose works Mrs. Heinlein tells us still occupy a shelf in her home), John D. MacDonald wrote the following in his 1968 Travis McGee novel, _Pale Gray For Guilt_ (the story some here may recall that involved the revenging of the murder of Tush Bannon).

McGee and Meyer have decided to 'sting' the man whose manipulations resulted, they believe, in pressure that caused someone to kill Bannon, in hope that the murder will run out of the woodwork into the light when the sting occurs. Part of their scheme involves finding a corporation whose stock is so inflated but looks so good they can induce him into investing into it. So Meyer the economist went looking for and found one. He reports his success back to McGee, who is going to pose as a successful investor to entice the villain into going along with him on an investment scheme:

" 
. . . So the stock I found, Santo will think it has the same beautiful 
future like those you made the capital gains out of. . . .
"

A dog called Fletcher Industries. I read maybe two hundred balance sheets and operating statements. I started with two hundred and weeded down and down and down, hunting for something that looks okay fine on the surface but is rotten underneath. It could win a prize for the worse stock. It has a thin float. It shows sales and profits going up every year. It has a nice profit margin, nice book value, big words in the annual financial report about a glowing future and so forth."

McGee interjects: "So what's wrong with it?"

" 
Maybe I shouldn't try to explain. Listen, there are maybe eight 
perfectly ethical and legitimate choices a C.P.A. has when he is 
figuring profit per share. Each choice makes the profit higher or lower, 
accordingly. You find some old conservative companies that make the 
eight choices so that they show the lowest per share profit. Most 
companies make one choice one way, another, another way, so in general 
it cancels out. But this little Fletcher outfit, they use every choice 
they have to make their profits bigger. I reworked their statements. The 
stock sells right now for fifteen a share. Over the last twelve months, 
the earning reports say they have a profit of ninety-six cents a share. 
That was up from seventy-seven cents the previous year. Use the most 
conservative methods and you know what it is? A lousey eleven cents the 
previous year, and a four-cent loss this year. Such a statement they 
publish! The book value is all puffed up. The profit margin is nonsense. 
Even the cash flow is jiggered up."
" 
Book value? Cash flow?" [asks McGee].
" 
Forget it. You don't have to know. All you have to know is . . . this 
one has no substance. It will go up like penny rockets and when it 
starts down, it should maybe end up as a two dollar stock which is where 
it belongs." pp. 102-03, Pale Gray for Guilt (Fawcett PB 1968 printing)

Of course, MacDonald's character Meyer is a world-renowed economic genius, living in retirement on a boat down the slip from McGee's Busted Flush. Be nice to have one handy and willing to sift through 200 stocks for the dogs when buying 401s.

It would have been interesting to have read a novel involving a future's economic manipulation written by Heinlein. Especially one written in the middle of the depression, or, even, today. I'm thinking especially about some of the political comments written about the power abuses and destruction of world governments by multi-national corporations in _Friday_.
 

-- 
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
    Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
    Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)


From: djinn (qinjingyou@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another
Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-27 18:13:20 PST


David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in news:3D1A7FAB.4080205@verizon.net:

snip speculation

It would have been interesting to read, although one reason MacDonald was good at writing about financial dealings is that he was educated in business and finance. Heinlein wasn't and so the product would have necessarily been different. Like most of his books it would have been about the people involved, not the details of the financial dealings. Maybe a heroic accountant? :)

Heinlein did very well on management though *, so a story about a businessman keeping his company going during anarchy or Balkanization might have happened - a 'Taipan in the future' kind of story.

From the title it could have been an Aniara kind of story too, a shipful of survivors fleeing a destroyed planet.

Speculation is fun!

* Fred Brooks quoted from 'The Man who Sold the Moon' in his software engineering classic 'The Mythical Man Month'

-- 
Dave

The programmer, like the poet, works only slightly removed from pure 
thought-stuff. He builds his castles in the air, from air, creating by 
exertion of the imagination.....   The magic of myth and legend has come 
true in our time.    
Fred Brooks, The Mythical Man-Month.


From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-27 22:59:35 PST

djinn wrote:

> David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in 
> news:3D1A7FAB.4080205@verizon.net:
> 
> snip speculation
> 
> It would have been interesting to read, although one reason MacDonald was 
> good at writing about financial dealings is that he was educated in 
> business and finance.

He certainly was. I recall bios on covers and flyleafs of stories by him earlier than the McGee series that mentioned MBAs and a well known eastern school, perhaps Wharton, and years of experience in corporate businesses before he finally retired from "real life" to write exclusively. He also spent some time in the China Burma theatre.

> Heinlein  wasn't and so the product would have 
> necessarily been different.

You'd have to prove that to me; for considering his years with EPIC ["End Poverty in Califoria"], I'd assume he'd have some sort of practical grounding as well as theory, at least those espoused by that movement and reasonably likely to be posited by its foes. People spent a lot of attention and put a lot of focus on "economics" in the period 1929 (when he graduated Annapolis and when the market crashed)-37 (when For Us, The Living was written). There are some indications in the pre-war writings, e.g., "The Roads Must Road" that he'd studied at least some of the proposed solutions for the socio-political economic problems that my parents faced, finding some wanting and criticizing them. Then there's the passage in the story of Dora from Time Enough For Love, dealing with Laz's role as banker; and other hints here and there, the transfer of the Howard Family funds into gold, etc., that he had some theories.

> Like most of his books it would have been about 
> the people involved, not the details of the financial dealings. Maybe a 
> heroic accountant?  :)
> 

The passage I quoted from Pale Gray for Guilt by MacDonald of Dr. Meyer teaching McGee about crooked accounting on financial statements reminds me more than a bit of the "information dumps" that Heinlein was likely to put in every chapter of his juvenile novels and many adult stories. We already had a potentially heroic accountant, the timekeeper prepared to sit next after Konski, in Gentlemen, Be Seated, although Konski (and the reporter-narrator) gets the kudos. ;-)

There is a theory that some of For Us, The Living was high-graded into Beyond This Horizon. I've never really tried reading BTH to see what might survive of a novel on economics. I suppose if we took away the dueling with .45s parts and looked hard, some of what is left might fit into one, but what parts?

> Heinlein did very well on management though *, so a story about a 
> businessman keeping his company going during anarchy or Balkanization might 
> have happened - a 'Taipan in the future' kind of story. 
> 
> From the title it could have been an Aniara kind of story too, a shipful of 
> survivors fleeing a destroyed planet. 
> 

Tell me more about "Aniara" stories, please.

> Speculation is fun!
> 
> 
> 
> * Fred Brooks quoted from 'The Man who Sold the Moon' in his software 
> engineering classic 'The Mythical Man Month'
> 
> 

-- 
   --
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
    Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
    Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)


From: bookman (Thebookman@kc.rr.NULL.com)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-28 00:05:35 PST

David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message news:3D1BFB14.60208@verizon.net...

> There is a theory that some of For Us, The Living was high-graded into
> Beyond This Horizon. I've never really tried reading BTH to see what
> might survive of a novel on economics. I suppose if we took away the
> dueling with .45s parts and looked hard, some of what is left might fit
> into one, but what parts?
>

Background, sir. Recall that BTH is set in a society where the economy is _managed_, and ways of getting people to reinvest/spend are constantly being researched.

Thus the protagonist enters the stage, as he invents (essentially) video games.

>    David M. Silver

Rusty the bookman also shows up in TDIS, but mostly for sneers/laughs.



From: BPRAL22169 (bpral22169@aol.com)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-28 09:24:20 PST

>Background, sir.  Recall that BTH is set in a society where
>the economy is _managed_, and ways of getting people
>to reinvest/spend are constantly being researched.
>

This is a very plausible speculation. It just occurred to me that BTH has the Darlington Smith character revenant, a stockbroker from 1920s, which would make a perfect foil for contrasting economic systems and creates an opportunity for exposition -- explaining How Things Work. Bill



From: David Silver (ag.plusone@verizon.net)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-28 10:28:48 PST

BPRAL22169 wrote, replying to Rusty:

>>Background, sir.  Recall that BTH is set in a society where
>>the economy is _managed_, and ways of getting people
>>to reinvest/spend are constantly being researched.
>>
>>
> 
> This is a very plausible speculation.  It just occurred to me that BTH has the
> Darlington Smith character revenant, a stockbroker  from 1920s, which would
> make a perfect foil for contrasting economic systems and creates an opportunity
> for exposition -- explaining How Things Work.

Just as MacDonald, within the larger context of his plot of revenge uses Meyer in not only the little part about finding the 'dog' stock they use, but also the overall discussion of their scheme to entrap and "sting" the financier whose indiference to the plight of Tush Bannon got him killed, to explain to McGee How Things Work when the big boys still in the late 1960s and today manipulate the stock market to artificially jack up demand and price in a certain stock so they can unload taking their profits just before the bubble pops.

In the MacDonald example, you don't have to be "Ken Lay," you just have to figure out or discover what "Ken Lay's" company is doing with its financial reports before the herd, the stock exchange, other shareholders of the manipulated company, and the SEC figures it out; then you quietly acquire a position, encourage great demand one way or the other -- driving up the stock price of a thin float is what Meyer and McGee encourage the bad guy to do, and just as quietly sell off, putting your profits somewhere safe; and you can be indifferent to what the eventual impact is -- McGee and Meyer leave the bad guy holding the bag, not only deprived of substantial capital but under investigation by the governors of the exchange and the SEC for doing what they encouraged him to do and what he thought, *incorrectly,* what they were also doing.

-- 
   David M. Silver
   http://www.heinleinsociety.org
   http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
   "The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
    Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29
    Lt (jg)., USN R'td (1907-1988)


From: djinn (qinjingyou@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-28 07:13:25 PST

David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in news:3D1BFB14.60208@verizon.net:

> djinn wrote:
> 
>> David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in 
>> news:3D1A7FAB.4080205@verizon.net:
>> 
>> snip speculation
>> 
>> It would have been interesting to read, although one reason MacDonald
>> was good at writing about financial dealings is that he was educated
>> in business and finance.
> 
> 
> He certainly was. I recall bios on covers and flyleafs of stories by
> him earlier than the McGee series that mentioned MBAs and a well known
> eastern school, perhaps Wharton, and years of experience in corporate 
> businesses before he finally retired from "real life" to write 
> exclusively. He also spent some time in the China Burma theatre.
> 
>> Heinlein  wasn't and so the product would have 
>> necessarily been different.
> 
> 
> You'd have to prove that to me; for considering his years with EPIC 
> ["End Poverty in Califoria"], I'd assume he'd have some sort of 
> practical grounding as well as theory, at least those espoused by that
> movement and reasonably likely to be posited by its foes. People spent
> a lot of attention and put a lot of focus on "economics" in the period
> 1929 (when he graduated Annapolis and when the market crashed)-37
> (when For Us, The Living was written). There are some indications in
> the pre-war writings, e.g., "The Roads Must Road" that he'd studied at
> least some of the proposed solutions for the socio-political economic
> problems that my parents faced, finding some wanting and criticizing
> them. Then there's the passage in the story of Dora from Time Enough
> For Love, dealing with Laz's role as banker; and other hints here and
> there, the transfer of the Howard Family funds into gold, etc., that
> he had some theories.
> 

Meyer's explanation to McGee was about accounting techniques, not economics. Not that Heinlein couldn't have studied accounting, just don't think he'd go to that much trouble when he didn't need to. When he had his characters calculate trajectories, he didn't go into how to calculate a trajectory, just had them punch numbers or use a sliderule. Likewise he didn't need to go into bookkeeping. ( MacDonald didn't either, I think he did it because he could, and to establish Meyer as an expert)

Read the rest of this message... (52 more lines)



From: CEMyers (ClarkEMyers@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-28 18:36:09 PST

"djinn" <qinjingyou@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:Xns923B49566983Bmmii@68.6.19.6...

>
> Meyer's explanation to McGee was about accounting techniques, not
> economics. Not that Heinlein couldn't have studied accounting, just don't
> think he'd go to that much trouble when he didn't need to.
> When he had his characters calculate trajectories, he didn't go into how to
> calculate a trajectory, just had them punch numbers or use a sliderule.
> Likewise he didn't need to go into bookkeeping. ( MacDonald didn't either,
> I think he did it because he could, and to establish Meyer as an expert)
>

But notice Rocket Ship Galileo had actual calculations by the author on long brown paper just as C.J. Cherryh plotted time and distance to schedule for port calls by her star ships and followed those rules in later plotting - authors maybe don't do what they don't need to but they do what they do need to. Indeed when it mattered and was the momentary focus of the character (Cat Who...) the author did go into how to calculate a trajectory. cf. Libby "if ...is as round. as it looks" then .....

As the teacher in Homestead IIRC suggested to then Evelyn Cyril one might study law (or accounting) without actually meaning to practice it on behalf of others for pay.

Clark



From: Chris Zakes (moondrgn@austin.rr.com)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-28 19:37:58 PST

On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:10:36 GMT, djinn <qinjingyou@yahoo.com> wrote:

>David Silver <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in 
>news:3D1A7FAB.4080205@verizon.net:
>
>snip speculation
>
>It would have been interesting to read, although one reason MacDonald was 
>good at writing about financial dealings is that he was educated in 
>business and finance. Heinlein  wasn't and so the product would have 
>necessarily been different. Like most of his books it would have been about 
>the people involved, not the details of the financial dealings. Maybe a 
>heroic accountant?  :)

I'm not so sure about that. There are a couple of mentions in "Grumbles" where Heinlein talked about writing non-fiction books about finance and semantics. And consider "Take Back Your Government"...

 -Chris Zakes
  Texas

"I'm a homicidal maniac. They look just like everybody 
else."

 -Wednesday Addams in "The Addams Family"


From: cmaj7dmin7 (reilloc@sbcglobal.net)
Subject: Re: "For Us, The Living," G. 004, Was It another Friday?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.heinlein
Date: 2002-06-29 00:08:53 PST

"David Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message news:3D1A7FAB.4080205@verizon.net...

[Lots of stuff, gone. Just, plain gone. Well, it's in an old post Dave
made.]

> It would have been interesting to have read a novel involving a future's
> economic manipulation written by Heinlein. Especially one written in the
> middle of the depression, or, even, today. I'm thinking especially about
> some of the political comments written about the power abuses and
> destruction of world governments by multi-national corporations in
> _Friday_.
>    David M. Silver
>    http://www.heinleinsociety.org

Uhhh...Dave? Not a minute went by but Woody and his progeny were up to some kind of intergallactic scam to set up this limited liability something to hold that close corporation which owns nothing but voting interest in another off-planet bank that votes the way the Senior or Hilda or Maureen or Ira says vote on whether to issue debentures to fund a leveraged buyout of half a solar system. After Hilda subdues him, that's the first thing they talk about. And who else is in on it? Slipstick Meyer, I mean, Libby himself in the John Maynard Keynes or whatever it's called in the 43rd century. Pick a confidence man, I mean economist, it doesn't matter; a banana's a banana no matter how you peel it.

LNC


[Editor's Note]:Quite a number of postings were made on this subject prior to the formal introduction for this meeting.
Instead of attempting to insert them here, I did a Google search and have created the following tiny.url which leads to them. http://tinyurl.com/2usuu

End of Postings


Go Beginning of Posts


Here Begins the Discussion


You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group Chat."

DavidWrightSr: Hi Os. I see you are early too

OscagneTX: howdy.

OscagneTX: Been there long?

DavidWrightSr: Just a couple of minutes. I always like to arrive early and try to get a full log.

OscagneTX: Ok.

OscagneTX: I had the same idea, and Steph is watching Moulin Rouge, so I haven't anything better to do. %^)

DavidWrightSr: Since we didn't get much response on a.f.h. directly. I am going back and picking up some of the earlier threads which talked about FUTL and add them into what was done directly. However, one of the threads is 139 posts. I'm just going to post a URL to a google search on that one.
[Editor's Note: see] http://tinyurl.com/2usuu

OscagneTX: Ok. That seems sufficient.

Reilloc has entered the room.

OscagneTX: howdy

Reilloc: Hi

Reilloc: Back, later...

Reilloc has left the room.

kategladstone@mac.com has entered the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, David and Oscagne!

OscagneTX: howdy

kategladstone@mac.com: Do we often have as few as three people when we begin?

OscagneTX: No, but we've still got a little more than an hour before official start.

kategladstone@mac.com: Oh, yes - I'd forgot that we operate on Central Time.

kategladstone@mac.com: I may go back to what had occupied my afternoon - beginning the study of Japanese with a language-program similar to what RAH describes in GULF.

OscagneTX: Hmm... sorta. I operate on central because that's where I am, and I figure that since we're "broadcasting" worldwide, it's an arbitrary choice...

kategladstone@mac.com: It comes from a company called "Transparent Language" - and includes oscilloscope scans of your voice and the teachers' voices.

OscagneTX: So, it's most convenient for me to remember when I'm writing the posts.

kategladstone@mac.com: So I think I'll disconnect, go back to studying, and come back here later.

OscagneTX: ok.

kategladstone@mac.com: Sayonara!

kategladstone@mac.com has left the room.

Caine1959 has entered the room.

Caine1959: Hi folks! Getting people together early?

DavidWrightSr: A couple of usually come in early to set up the chairs, drinks at the bar, clean out the stove etc.

DavidWrightSr: couple of us

Caine1959: sounds good...should I stoke the fireplace?

DavidWrightSr: Everyone who is here now is doing a couple of other things, so hang around and be welcome.

OscagneTX: Howdy.

Caine1959: no problem...was reading Mr. Robinson's bit in FUTL on the webpage

DavidWrightSr: That's Joe McGrew, our fearless leader, and I am David

Caine1959: I think I remember you David.... I used to come her a few years ago

OscagneTX: more like fealress reader.

Caine1959: Hi Joe

OscagneTX: howdy.

Caine1959: I timed it right coming in tonight...finished the book last week

Merfilly27 has entered the room.

OscagneTX: howdy

Merfilly27: thank you

Caine1959: Hi Mer...how goes it?

OscagneTX: YW

Merfilly27: well

Caine1959: great...

Merfilly27 has left the room.

Caine1959: opps....gotta go for a bit.... I'll try to be back for the discussion

Caine1959 has left the room.

Merfilly27 has entered the room.

OscagneTX: wb

Merfilly27: thank you

OscagneTX: your welcom

Merfilly27: I'll return in a bit

OscagneTX: ok

Merfilly27 has left the room.

aggirlj has entered the room.

aggirlj: Hi guys, lurking while I continue to read.

OscagneTX: howdy

aggirlj: Thought I'd put a new slant on this one. Since I've read so little I think I can safely say I'm not hung up on what went before.

OscagneTX: what went before?

OscagneTX: you mean in the group, or in other books?

aggirlj: The whole raft of books and . . . yes

OscagneTX: ahh

aggirlj: So I'll read until it truly starts, talk later.

OscagneTX: ok

kategladstone@mac.com has entered the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, folks! (actually, I logged in briefly about 40 minutes ago, then left.)

aggirlj: Hi Kate

kategladstone@mac.com: I wanted to try out some learn-Japanese software

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Jane!

aggirlj: BTW have you gotten any of my emails.

kategladstone@mac.com: I haven't checked e-mails for the past six hours or so.

aggirlj: way back, after our library meeting.

kategladstone@mac.com: I can check now, but it may crash my computer. But I will try anyway.

aggirlj: No, don't.

kategladstone@mac.com: Which e-mails do you mean, Jane? Remind me.

kategladstone@mac.com: What did they contain?

aggirlj: On what we discussed at the meeting and what you suggested. It's been a while. That's why I asked.

kategladstone@mac.com: I didn't see those e-mails - but, then, I have had a lot of computer problems. Could you perhaps summarize them here, and/or re-send them?

aggirlj: Some research stuff.

kategladstone@mac.com: I'd like to see it!

aggirlj: I'll resend

kategladstone@mac.com: Thanks!

aggirlj: After

kategladstone@mac.com: Fine - I'll check later tonight. I've spent much of today having fun w/some software reminiscent of RAH's "Gulf" ...

aggirlj: I'm still reading FUTL as we sit waiting to start.

kategladstone@mac.com: Do you feel as unnerved, as I do, by FUTL's "take" on Coventry? Where you can apparently get exiled for believing in Catholicism?

aggirlj: Not there yet. Plan on finishing before Saturday.

kategladstone@mac.com: Well, you'll know that part when you get there.

kategladstone@mac.com: How far have you gotten with FUTL, Jane?

aggirlj: Not that far Kate. Just started. Someone said I shouldn't read it until I read other RAH. But I figured, why not? At least I have a different perspective.

kategladstone@mac.com: People who don't want you to read FUTL as your first RAH find FUTL unrepresentative of RAH's work as a whole ...

kategladstone@mac.com: e.g., because of its stylistic weaknesses and (even more so) because of its vast ideological differences from later RAH works.

kategladstone@mac.com: At the time he wrote FUTL, RAH held political/social views that he would later strongly modify or abandon.

OscagneTX: Jane, it's more interesting as a "here's the roots of . . . etc." work than a work on it's own, IMO.

aggirlj: I'm reading it as it is. Not looking for anything except a good story.

kategladstone@mac.com: I'd agree with Oscagne that this also gives a good reason to save FUTL till after other RAHs - not that you *have* to do it that way: if you started FUTL, hey, finish it and form your own opinions.

OscagneTX: I worry that I'm in the minority, but I didn't find the story interesting. I found it a vehicle stricktly for the philosphy, which I found tedious also. I think I'll follow my mom's advice, and shut up now. %^)

aggirlj: I must admit that I think he must have learned an awful lot after this first try.

kategladstone@mac.com: As far as you've gotten, Jane (not very far, I know), do you have any questions about odd things in the book?

aggirlj: Not yet.

kategladstone@mac.com: I agree with Oscagne that FUTL unfortunately comes too close to a political/social tract and not close enough to a novel.

aggirlj: Some of the prose. Use of adjectives that aren't obvious. HellPhyre87 has entered the room. HellPhyre87 has left the room.

OscagneTX: howdy

kategladstone@mac.com: What do you mean, Jane? Examples?

OscagneTX: bydy.

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello and goodbye, Hellphyre! ;-)

aggirlj: . . . 'ejaculations of suprise' . .

jcgsmtop1 has entered the room. jilyd has entered the room.

Bookman99R has entered the room.

OscagneTX: howdy, all.

kategladstone@mac.com: "Ejaculations" has a meaning other (and older) than the sexual one.

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello to you all three!

jcgsmtop1: Howdy jilyd: Evening everyone.

Bookman99R: hey, hey, hey! SciFiman33 has entered the room.

aggirlj: TY Kate. I know. It's a little interesting is what I mean.

OscagneTX: /me looks askance as Rusty channels "What's Happening".

OscagneTX: howdy, SFM.

aggirlj: Hi Richard!

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, SciFiMan! SciFiman33: Scifiman33 say's Hello to all!

DavidWrightSr: Sorry to everyone about the invite. I was afk up until just a few minutes ago. We are just now officially getting started

kategladstone@mac.com: What else, besides "ejaculation" in the non-sexual sense, struck you as odd in FUTL? Dehede011 has entered the room.

aggirlj: Someone else can answer that, just one I noticed while waiting TheCOinOz has entered the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: Of course, four or five decades later RAH would have had his hero and heroine pun on the word's dual senses. Dehede011: Howdy, I was just getting cocoa. TheCOinOz: hi there

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, TheCoinOz!

Bookman99R: not "WH", Osc. Fat Albert

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Ron!

OscagneTX: howdy, all. TheCOinOz: Thanks for the invite David. Dehede011: Thank you, who ever sent the invitation.

OscagneTX: Ah... diff between "hey Hey HEY!" and "hey HEY hey!"

kategladstone@mac.com: Who here has or hasn't finished FUTL (I know that Jane hasn't gotten far into it yet.)

DavidWrightSr: Yo welcome. jilyd: Geoff! I haven't talked to you in WAAAAY too long!

kategladstone@mac.com: I wish we could have seen more of the blacks in FUTL, by the way.

Merfilly27 has entered the room. SciFiman33: I am on page 155, Ch IX. Dehede011: Thanks, David.

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Merfilly!

Merfilly27: Hello wonderful people!

jcgsmtop1: I finished it TheCOinOz: no, it's been a while, RL has intruded on my socialising LOL.

kategladstone@mac.com: I forget - what happens on page 155?

OscagneTX: WB, Steph.

kategladstone@mac.com: I finished it a while back (though I can't locate my copy at the moment. Andrew may have taken it to start designing the "economics game" the novel teaches and refers to.

DavidWrightSr: I've read it twice, the second time just this last week to re-fresh myself on it. jilyd: :-), Geoff. LV Poker Player has entered the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: Good idea - did anything pop out on your re-reading,

David?

OscagneTX: howdy, LV. LV Poker Player: hi all

kategladstone@mac.com: Welcome back, LVPP? Hmmm, I wonder if they had gambling in FUTL-world? TheCOinOz: Hope the weather is nice for you, it's 12:30 Friday afternoon and it's a very pleasant 25c outside.

DavidWrightSr: The main thing that struck me were the very numerous place where I said to myself. "that in xx". LV Poker Player: They had humans, so I am guessing they had gambling

Merfilly27: had a gambling reference in my comics this past week

kategladstone@mac.com: We have 25 Fahrenheit (not "c") here, at 9:00 PM TheCOinOz: Brrrr. Never been anywhere that cold. Dehede011: Kate, you are very lucky.

aggirlj: It's low 40's here in CO

DavidWrightSr: In BTH, most of Hamiliton Felix's games were gambling.

kategladstone@mac.com: Does gambling stay fun if you get issued free money every month?

Merfilly27: says its 43 here Dehede011: It is 5 F in the Chicago area.

kategladstone@mac.com: Lucky? The temp will soon return to around zero Fahrenheit, where it has hovered for most of the past fortnight here in Albany.

aggirlj: Brrrrr! LV Poker Player: It seems to have been a part of all cultures, dice have been found in all ancient cultures. Loaded ones have been found in Egyptian pyramids, presumably to give the Pharoa an advantage in the afterlife.

kategladstone@mac.com: We just had a bit of a "warm snap" which will soon dissipate. TheCOinOz: for some it does, those who just play for fun. Most gamblers are drawn by the lure of that 'big score' I guess. LV Poker Player: That being the case, it isa good bet that they had gambling

NYC20CnLtd has entered the room. LV Poker Player: It would also be considered a private sphere activity, I am sure

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes - and much later in history, Norwegians remember St. Olaf who shot craps and rolled a thirteen (one of the dice broke), thus winning Norway in a bet.

OscagneTX: howdy. NY

Caine1959 has entered the room.

NYC20CnLtd: Hi!

kategladstone@mac.com: Other versions say that he rolled one die and it broke to let him roll a seven.

OscagneTX: WB

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello!

jcgsmtop1: (I have to go feed neighbors' cats ... back in a bit.)

kategladstone@mac.com: Either way, Norway's St. Olaf beat the maximum possible throw.

kategladstone@mac.com: ;-) TheCOinOz: The legionaires gambled for Christs cloak at his crucifiction IIRC>

kategladstone@mac.com: Poul Anderson wrote a filk about it, if memory serves.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Hi, y'all.

aggirlj: Hey Bill

OscagneTX: Howdy, Bill.

kategladstone@mac.com: Not about the legionaries, about St. Olaf's crap-shoot. a57thornton has entered the room.

Caine1959: Hi!

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Bill!

BPRAL22169: My goodness, this is a flash crowd!

OscagneTX: howdy. jilyd: Good evening, Bill

BPRAL22169: Andy, glad you could make it.

OscagneTX: I see lots of folks I don't recognize. Anyone want to introduce themselves?

BPRAL22169: Caine, are you from Orange County? a57thornton: Good evening Mr. Bill & everyone

BPRAL22169: Oh, No-o-o-o-!

Caine1959: nope... Escondido, CA...north of San Diego

aggirlj: I'll start it.

aggirlj: <-----Jane

BPRAL22169: Have not seen you for awhile! Since the AOL days.

OscagneTX: The first "Mr. Bill" I saw, they were duct taping him to a space shuttle.

kategladstone@mac.com: Bill - you know about mystical/religious stuff in Heinlein - in FUTL, somewhere, it states that their "code of customs" included the FUTL society's definition of the word "God," but we don't get to see that definition. ...

BPRAL22169: Oh, to change places! a57thornton: I note Mr. Bill has become the spokespuppet for the swamps of Louisana

Caine1959: yep :-) I'm back

OscagneTX: <-- Joe, Houston, TX.

kategladstone@mac.com: ... Bill and all, how do you think the FUTLers defined "God" (since they apparently had some "official" definition for that word)? a57thornton: <--Andy

Merfilly27: <---Steph

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Andy - and Steph, of course! ;-) Dehede011: Ron, Chicago area

kategladstone@mac.com: Well, I greeted Steph earlier, as "Merfilly."

NYC20CnLtd: I'm John, from Orange Park, FL.

Caine1959: <--- Ron, California

kategladstone@mac.com: Kate from Albany, NY

jcgsmtop1: BPRAL22169: I think it's possible Heinlein(1938) deliberately left that a blank so that people could fill it in with what they felt was appropriate -- but TheCOinOz: Geoff, from Port Pirie, South Australia

Merfilly27: aye...just introducing myself for I do not recognize some names

BPRAL22169: that this society had solved that, by definition, big problem, was a sign of their maturity as a culture. a57thornton has left the room.

LanaiHoward has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Coward!

aggirlj: Hi Howard.

LanaiHoward: Friends, Romans, Countrymen, etc....

BPRAL22169: In short, he may not have had a specific definition in mind.

OscagneTX: howdy, Howard.

Bookman99R: what did I miss? a57thornton has entered the room.

Caine1959: just getting started

aggirlj: Haven't really started yet.

Merfilly27: god = non-definitive noun for that which the subconscious relies on in extreme stress ?

OscagneTX: I need my ears, Howard. But if you REALLY want one, I'll give you the right one. It hears better than the left.

Bookman99R: had to read a bedtime story... a57thornton: Back again

Merfilly27: which one?

LanaiHoward: That's all right, Osc. My left is purely decorative.

Bookman99R: Dizney's Hercules - gah! Dehede011: Those of you that like to look at thoughts on God might like to see Jean Leidloff's Continuum Concept.

Bookman99R: but he chose it

Merfilly27: aha

DavidWrightSr: If anyone needs to know how to make a shortcut into the room without being invited, IM me and I'll you know. a57thornton: What's the topic BTW?

Merfilly27: they really mangled mythology in that Dehede011: She has some ideas I have seen nowhere before.

BPRAL22169: FUTL

Bookman99R: no kidding

kategladstone@mac.com: I wonder whether FUTLers defined "God" as "meaningless noise" as Ira later did for Maureen - or as "all that [some 1930s equivalent of 'groks']" as in STRANGER.

OscagneTX: The topid is _For Us the Living_

Bookman99R: gotta round up Kipling

DavidWrightSr: Not a tepid-topid O:-) jilyd has left the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: Tell me about this "Continuum Concept" notion (off-line if necessary - I think you know my e-mail).

BPRAL22169: Or it could be something completely different -- completely out of left field like: God is what you see when one part of your brain looks at another part.

Merfilly27: anyone catch the birthday for "Gordon"? Dehede011: Yes, Kate, I do TheCOinOz: hmm, 'grok' had a definite meaning, something akin to 'understand' combined with 'accept'

Merfilly27: (please pardon, I did not read threads for I was reading the novel)

OscagneTX: "to drink" %^)

Bookman99R: 'grok' is drink

kategladstone@mac.com: But could you really WORSHIP what one part of your brain sees when looking at another part? Or DID the FUTLers, even in church (the few who went) worship anything? (Diane in FUTL says that the thought of ... TheCOinOz: yes, but it meant more than just that in the context it was used.

Caine1959: I still like the viewpoint of God in Job... so indescribile we can't comprehend him except as the big Boss a57thornton has left the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: ... church-services makes her feel "dirty")

OscagneTX: Why does God or god or ghod need worshiping?

Caine1959: yes there were "religions" in it

Bookman99R: energy source?

Merfilly27: because, ultimately, man needs something else to blame

BPRAL22169: It's not in evidence that God needs worshippping -- but humans seem to need to do it. TheCOinOz: LOL Dehede011: What if God was in many ways a hunger to fill a deficiency in our rearing

kategladstone@mac.com: In JOB, the biggest God (Koshchei the Deathless, from Cabell) doesn't need or invite worship - our God (and our Satan) look up to K. but they don't bow down to him.

aggirlj: Exactly Bill. TheCOinOz: Good point BPRAL a57thornton has entered the room.

LanaiHoward: Osc, that has always baffled me. Now, the only concept that has ever made any sense is that of Teilhard du Chardin -- it is the goal of a god...

aggirlj: Or they need to be controlled and in fear?

LanaiHoward: to mentor his/her creations in becoming godlike. Of course, no one says god can't be evolving in the process...

kategladstone@mac.com: If God fills a deficiency in our rearing, then presumably the oh-so-perfect FUTLers don't have or need Him/Her (save for a few warped souls whom FUTL psychotherapy quickly unwarps.)

Bookman99R: OTOH, ritual in community is important to many people

LanaiHoward: so it might follow that prayer is a state of being receptive to mentoring. Still requires an act of faith for me. Dehede011: And in second part a yearning to return to the time before our brain became mature enough to make decisions. LV Poker Player has left the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: Did the FUTLers have much "ritual in community" (secular or religious?) I don't seem to recall much (don't recall ANY group ceremonies or community rituals, in fact) ...

LanaiHoward: Got something against warpdrive, Kate?

OscagneTX: isn't the translation or meaning or whatever of "to pray" literally "to ask"? TheCOinOz: Quite so. Even where it doesn't necessarily involve religion. It's very popular amongst the military for instance, as a means of showing or being shown respect.

Caine1959: hmmmm.... have to look into that one. RAH's works lead me to look at the facts, so I'm a Bible believing Christian who has a hard time with organized religions where men tell me what I have to do...

kategladstone@mac.com: ... they seem in many ways a society of loners. No, I've nothing against warpdrive, Lanai Howard - why do you ask?

OscagneTX: You have to ask God for everything, and then when you've earned it for yourself you have to thank Him for it.

OscagneTX: Pfui.

BPRAL22169: Is Koschei the "biggest god"? All we know is he is the god of things as they are.

Caine1959: religion is something set up by man to try to relate to God

LanaiHoward: RB, that resonates at the moment -- I've been feeling a need for community, but I'm not sure ritual is part of it

BPRAL22169: It seems to me they have a great deal of ritual -- but it's not religious ritual.

LanaiHoward: well, you were mentioning unwarping as good. :-P TheCOinOz: important difference

kategladstone@mac.com: Some religions say that God wants a certain kind of worship and will not accept anything different from this (that humans may create).

OscagneTX: Ritual can be important even without religion, simply because people like to be able to expect what's coming next.

kategladstone@mac.com: What rituals do you recall the FUTLers having? a57thornton has left the room.

Bookman99R: IMO, ritual is emotionally powerful

aggirlj: I uwb Andy TheCOinOz: between religious and non religious ritual. Example 'Showing the colours'

BPRAL22169: I just read something about that today, in Frye's Fables of Identity.

Caine1959: I have a book question.... did he really explain HOW Perry ended up in the future? seemed kinda vague Dehede011: If you read Clare Graves completion of Maslow's hierarchy there is an intense need for ceremony to solidfy the tribe

Merfilly27: he di dnot

LanaiHoward: I've found the power in neopagan ritual to be one of mutual bonding, as well as bonding to the earth.

Caine1959: whew...thought it was just me

aggirlj: As I read it, Perry came to a 'time' and possibly in another body.

LanaiHoward: Caine: Clarke's Second Law.

OscagneTX: that really bugged me, too, Caine.

Merfilly27: it was left up to the reader to provide their own explanation

kategladstone@mac.com: RAH never makes quite clear whether Perry REALLY got into the future (through some "Twilight Zone"-esque soul-switching magic, as the Hindu in the book claims) ...

Bookman99R: yeah, bonding with a community is a biggie

OscagneTX: The whole damn thing was just a vehicle for a utopia explanation.

kategladstone@mac.com: ... or whether possibly Perry just dreamed it all while dying in that accident as his brain ceased to function ... TheCOinOz: Bit like Burroughs 'Mars' novels.

Caine1959: true...but RAH got better at tying up loose ends like that in his later books including time travel

Bookman99R: that's why many churches use a ritual service

BPRAL22169: Ritual is an expression of "narrative" -- pattern, whereas imagery is an expression of epiphany. a57thornton has entered the room.

Bookman99R: usually including participation elements

kategladstone@mac.com: cf. I WILL FEAR NO EVIL (did Eunice REALLY talk to Johann, or did he hallucinate her?)

Merfilly27: Kate---that puts it with IWFNE then

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes!

Caine1959: some of the best definations of ritual are in the Kurtz/Harris Adept series...try'em some time

kategladstone@mac.com: What participatory rituals (if any) do we see in FUTL?

BPRAL22169: Andy, you might try signing off and rebooting.

Bookman99R: even Scouting uses sing-alongs IIRC

DavidWrightSr: As to Perry's 'transfer'. I think that RAH was utilizing some of the implications of Dunne' theories. Similar to what Piper did with it.

OscagneTX: Was it Spider... or perhaps it was Bill...? Suggested that H's first book was just a vehicle for his social theory, and when it got rejected he realized he liked telling the story...

BPRAL22169: Their personal greetings to each other are highly formalized. TheCOinOz: re IWFNE, I got the distinct impression it was really her.

kategladstone@mac.com: Even things like marriage typically happen privately - say you've married and you HAVE married: period.

OscagneTX: And that's why we have so many good stories from him.

Merfilly27: Spider

AGplusone has entered the room.

OscagneTX: Howdy, David.

aggirlj: Hi David

aggirlj: brb Dehede011: getting more cocoa

kategladstone@mac.com: Okay, I guess that formal greetings count as rituals. Presumably, more such exists in the FUTLers' "code of customs," which children learn but which we never actually see. (Does anyone in FUTL quote it?) Hello, David!

AGplusone: Hi, Joe. Had to get in here by the back door. For some reason my AIM isn't working too well.

BPRAL22169: I vaguely recall a useful definition of "ritual" from TA -- by inversion; intimacy is the state in which you no longer need ritual.

Caine1959: it was hard to say...I re-read FEAR, I could believe it right up until the third soul came into the body... then it was hard to suspend my disbelief

OscagneTX: Your name has been helping me in my chem class... remembering the charge. I couldn't figure out that part of your nickname until I got to studying that bit.

kategladstone@mac.com: If I could believe two souls in a body, why not believe a third?

kategladstone@mac.com: ;-)

LanaiHoward: And that formalization of greeting invokes both reciprocal obligation and obligation to a cultural norm/ideal -- distinct concepts in Japanese socialization TheCOinOz: How much room does a soul need anyway?

Bookman99R: and how does the soul 'connect' to the body?

kategladstone@mac.com: Hmmm ... does FUTL society remind you of Japan in other ways, LanaiHoward?

kategladstone@mac.com: I ask because Andrew and I plan (if we can afford it) to visit Japan in a few years.

BPRAL22169: Apparently the FUTLers know something about the subject -- another sign they are 'way advanced-- she accepts it without much fuss.

DavidWrightSr: You know, it just occurred to me that what I said about Dunne could be applied to IWFNE, if you stretch it a little.

LanaiHoward: Can't speak to souls, but did have an honors hugh school chemistry problem of determining how many angels can dance on the head of a pin georule1861 has entered the room.

Merfilly27: intense separation of private/public sphere strikes me as Japanese

kategladstone@mac.com: I wonder how many Heinlein fans live in Japan? TheCOinOz: that angels on the pin problem dates from the middle ages doesn't it?

OscagneTX: howdy, Geo.

aggirlj: Hi Geo

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Geo!

Bookman99R: that's like the "Hell is exothermic" paper, eh, Howard? georule1861: Evenin'

NYC20CnLtd: That would be easy to answer, but not by me. How well do his books sell in Japan?

BPRAL22169: Very well, indeed.

LanaiHoward: Much of Japanese formalism is a way of dealing with otherwise intolerable population pressure....not that such pressure was an FUTL issue....

kategladstone@mac.com: I wonder which RAH books sell best in Japan.

NYC20CnLtd: (Japanese translations are half the picture--a lot of Japanese learn English, and might read the originals.) georule1861: I read the privacy amendment and thot "wow, he beat Griswold by 30 years"

kategladstone@mac.com: Population pressure might have *become* an issue in a technological society that hadn't opened the frontiers of space by the 21st century ...

LanaiHoward: there is also a (positive) expectation of predictable social behavior in both.. Add to the respect for "Masters" as learned advisors who also have achieved self-mastery TheCOinOz: Anne McCaffrey mentions something like that describing the incredibly ritualised lives of the cat like aliens in the Doona books. "There is much time to be accounted for and ritual helps to pass it"

kategladstone@mac.com: the economist-teacher character talks about the 18th/19th-century USA having a frontier to absorb unemployed people, something that (he notes) his own time doesn't have.

Bookman99R: maybe, Kate - but how high is "up", so to speak

kategladstone@mac.com: What do you mean by "how high is 'up

kategladstone@mac.com: ' in this context?

Bookman99R: Pressure is not really high yet

LanaiHoward: NYC20, in my brief stay in Japan, I found many people who THOUGHT they spoke ENglish -- and made no sense. Is the level of understanding better with written English?

NYC20CnLtd: We still have a frontier that's more easily reached than space--the arctic.

kategladstone@mac.com: No - but I suspect that the pressure would have

started to build in a generation or so.

Bookman99R: by Japanese standards, say

LanaiHoward: the arctic and undersea.

DavidWrightSr: In COTG, Margaret, (I think), to Thorby that you could go through the entire day and not use everything out of The laws of Sisu. IIRC

kategladstone@mac.com: I know a lot of Japanese folks who write excellent English but can barely speak a word of it.

Merfilly27: or the oceans on frontiers

Bookman99R: But societies much more thinly settled than ours have had population pressure as a prime factor

kategladstone@mac.com: Margaret Mader said, as I recall, that you could go through a day and not say ANYTHING not found in the ship's laws - rather different!

kategladstone@mac.com: (referring to CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY)

DavidWrightSr: That's what I was trying to say. Didn't come out exactly right

LanaiHoward: Right, David. But was that a simple relief from worrying about being socially correct, and possibly freeing one to be out-of-the-box creative?. The Free Traders were socially rigid, true...

DavidWrightSr: or was that GMTA? :-)

kategladstone@mac.com: RAH did discuss pop.-pressure in LOGIC OF EMPIRE, along with econ. theories slightly reminiscent of some of the econ.-Master's statements in FUTL.

LanaiHoward: but there's no reason to believe they weren't quite original in the arts or technologies

OscagneTX: And in ST, Kate.

OscagneTX: I think.

OscagneTX: "Every war ever started was the result of pop pressure" or some such.

NYC20CnLtd: Answering your question Lanai, I don't know. I know I don't speak Spanish well enough to follow Univision on TV, but I could manage more-or-less with written works. (I also know I'd probably seek out translations.)

Bookman99R: NYC - absent delta-v costs, is space a harsher environment than the Arctic?

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes, in ST too ... and tangentially in one or two paragraphs in TEFL (talking about economies collapsing from poor feedback)

AGplusone: In FUTL it's every war started with trade inbalances, Joe.

LanaiHoward: there's a big difference between having to heat and moisturize air that is present -- and having to bring your own

NYC20CnLtd: Yes. Mars and the Moon lack readily breathable air. The arctic and antarctic don't.

DavidWrightSr: Everyone seems to think that the social credit idea won't work, Can someone explain simply the fallacies in RAH's thinking? It seemed reasonable to me. TheCOinOz: I can think of several that were not a result of population pressure, but either a need for resources or political. The US Revolution and the US Civil ware being cases in point. Neither of those could be construed as caused by pop

Bookman99R: But Pop. Press & trade imbalances bot point to isolated lack of rescources

LanaiHoward: I am _not_ going to talk about air in SoCal or NJ....

kategladstone@mac.com: I suspect that Social Credit WOULD work if you had a planet full of superlatively good and nice people who all believed in Social Credit ...

NYC20CnLtd: (We're also still sizing up the water situations on the moon and Mars.)

BPRAL22169: Who is "everybody"? There aren't any "fallacies" -- it's just well outside the conventional boxes for economic thinking. TheCOinOz: Enlightened Self Interest?

AGplusone: Population pressure does not equal trade inbalances

kategladstone@mac.com: ... but add in a critical mass of "bad apples," out to "game the system" and take without contributing ... TheCOinOz: 'Doc' Smith was rather fond of that one.

Bookman99R: NYC - but in L5, you have an unlimited supplyy of sunlight. not so in the arctic

kategladstone@mac.com: and the system may collapse.

OscagneTX: Well... Communism would work if "humanity" was basically "good".

NYC20CnLtd: That's true.

AGplusone: Why worry about them? Heinlein doesn't.

kategladstone@mac.com: Same idea ... georule1861: You need a closed system for social credit. Or communism.

LanaiHoward: CO, would you entertain it isn't absolute space or resources, but access to them? The transportation and communications of the times made cities overcrowded and grim. Suburbanization isoften overlooked as a major US factor

Bookman99R: good point, Geo

AGplusone: No, that's not true either. georule1861: I found myself thinking that the South America thing would mean no need for Heritage Checks, which would be politically impossible.

NYC20CnLtd: The biggest, most valuable in abundence in space and scarce on Earth is freedom.

kategladstone@mac.com: So, of course, RAH has to have a whole set-up of pshrinks to keep everyone properly sane, compliant, and ... well ... tame. (the biggest difference between FUTL and BEYOND THIS HORIZON). TheCOinOz: Hmm, not so sure about that. Communism works on the basis that one mans/womans work is worth no more than any other. This is fallacious in an industrialised society where a skilled person is more useful than an unskilled labourer.

NYC20CnLtd: Energy is probably second. georule1861: brb

OscagneTX: I thought communism worked on the basis of "from each according to ability, to each according to need".

LanaiHoward: Or is it that the wolves are more obvious in BtH? I felt Coventry to be more in line with FUTL TheCOinOz: Remember that Marx wrote the Communist manifesto in the 19th century when he was an old man, remembering his early life which was definitely pre industrial.

DavidWrightSr: One of those things in FUTL which I noticed was echoed in ST.

Bookman99R: There's a point there: Soviet Comm fell in part because it couldn't handle transportation logistics, no?

kategladstone@mac.com: In FUTL-world, if your behavior disrupts society you either get kicked out of society or packed off to a re-education camp ... even just for believing in, say, Catholicism or something.

AGplusone: No, the fallacy in communism is the definition of "worth" sez FUTL, an artificial thing, rather than what it really is.

kategladstone@mac.com: Even though Perry learned intriguing things during his therapy, I don't feel so comfortable with the notion. TheCOinOz: Essentially yes, that was one of the key elements, but it also tends to work well only in non technological ie agrarian/peasant farmer etc societies.

LanaiHoward: the fUSSR rail net is centered on Moscow, to the detriment of, say Ukraine to Belorussia commerce

kategladstone@mac.com: So how did FUTL define economic worth? The way that ST defined it?

BPRAL22169: Not the way I understood it, Kate -- you had to actually DO something anti-social to get society withdraw itself from you.

Bookman99R: right, Howard

AGplusone: I.e., what people will pay for it. A mudpie equals zero, but Marx says otherwise. There's supposed to be some inherent worth there.

AGplusone: See above. What people will pay for it.

BPRAL22169: Yeah, Marx's labor theory of value.

BPRAL22169: Falls apart the instant youlook at it.

DavidWrightSr: and the notion that 'equal work' means 'equal value'.

LanaiHoward: idly thinks the mudpie only has value when someone gets the idea that a cosmetologist with an accent can use it as a facial TheCOinOz: which works only when people have roughly the same work value. a57thornton: Ricardo's Theory, actually

AGplusone: which isn';t true either

aggirlj: Good one Howard.

Bookman99R: OTOH, "what you will pay for it" doesn't really cover monopoly & fraud TheCOinOz: Which fails due to differing skill levels in modern/industrial/scientific societies.

AGplusone: your mudpie isn't worth my pizza pie and so there!

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes, but the society defined certain beliefs (e.g., "symbolic cannibalism") as anti-social/damaging ... a57thornton: "From each according to their ability; to each accordkng to their political pull" Kim Kinnison999 has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: 19th century economists were always coming up with monistic theories that all spiraled into economic collapse. TheCOinOz: exactly. Apply it to a doctor v a ditch digger.

kategladstone@mac.com: ... remember that the entire membership of certain religions went into FUTL'

kategladstone@mac.com: 's Coventry rather than submit to re-education?

BPRAL22169: Ah, thre we have the working principle of Soviet communism. a57thornton: Economies are non-linear TheCOinOz: which is more valuable to a community. Bear in mind almost anyone can dig a ditch, but not just anyone can remove your appendix without killing you.

BPRAL22169: Exactly

LanaiHoward: The pizza I had tonight is making me a bit queasy. If necessary, I might take Kaopectate, an ingredient of which is finely divided clay. Raw mudpie?

BPRAL22169: Economies are nonlinear.

AGplusone: RAH says that the role of government is to take care of monopoly and fraud ... he doesn't leave it alone, Rusty.

kategladstone@mac.com: Does the nonlinearity of economies enter into FUTL's "economics game"?

BPRAL22169: Yes, Kate, they made a choice to not participate in this social order but to participate in a social order they liked better.

AGplusone: Good riddance.

LanaiHoward: Actually, taking the appendix out isn't fantastically complicated. Making sure the patient wakes up from the anesthesia, without infection, is another matter entirely.

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes - but how free a "choice," I sometimes wonder?

Bookman99R: didn't say so, David - was pointing out a loophole to that "demand" theory

OscagneTX: Ah, hell. Who needs anesthesia... TheCOinOz: Note that I said, 'Without killing you"

OscagneTX: "Hold 'im down, boys!"

BPRAL22169: Well, they aren't free to not-participate in Covenant society and yet participate in it at the same time ...

kategladstone@mac.com: If you believe in "symbolic cannibalism," does the "nauseatingness" of that belief suffice to force you to choose between Coventry or a "cure"?

LanaiHoward: Where, Kate, is the border between social disapproval of certain choices, and anticipatory action by some flavor of thought police?...

kategladstone@mac.com: Agreed - you can't have it both ways. I wonder about the kids born in Coventry. Do they just stay there?

kategladstone@mac.com: My question exactly - FUTL comes a shade too close to "thought police" for my liking (even where I agree with ideas of theirs).

Merfilly27: To have complete freedom of your private actions, so long as no other's freedom is inhibited, I got the impression FUTL was very conformist

BPRAL22169: I don't feel qualified to comment on their choices, but I am pretty confident that they were offered a choice and took the one they thought best for themselves.

AGplusone: They come out sometimes, like Libby and get put to work in the CCS, Kate. TheCOinOz: In theory they would be citizens on majority, as they have not committed an offence to be placed there.

BPRAL22169: I dont recall why they were offered the choice.

LanaiHoward: Thought police, incidentally, was not just Orwellian -- it was a branch of the Japanese Home Ministry in the 20s-30s -- but also examined revolutionary ideas to see if they might have value

DavidWrightSr: The only fallacy that I have thought of might be that even though 'production = means to purchase it" might fall down when the actual demand for something is less than the amounts produced

kategladstone@mac.com: FUTL seems to combine very-high-conformist areas with very-low-conformist areas of practice/belief.

BPRAL22169: The exception, COinOZ, would be at the establishment of the Covenant. TheCOinOz: So they should be free to leave. Whether they would function well there is another matter, I suspect they would screw up and find themselves back in.

BPRAL22169: i.e., when the explicit social contract would be made.

kategladstone@mac.com: And I LIKE the idea of examining revolutionary notions for possible acceptance! - VERY "Heinleinian" in spirit! Krin135 has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Some people in "Coventry"'s Coventry opted out of Coventry, too.

AGplusone: You presumably get the indoctrination before coming past the Barrier if you're a child.

OscagneTX: howdy, chuck.

Bookman99R: Merfilly - isn't "non-conformist society" a contradiction?

AGplusone: Then it's up to you ... you can always get sent back. Krin135: evening all...just got back from work... TheCOinOz: Something like that I imagine

Merfilly27: Hi there

Merfilly27: it might be, Rusty...but then, I'd prefer to be a rational anarchist anyday of the week

aggirlj: Ohhhhh, pretty blue . . .

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes - but ... I wonder: did Coventry moms and dads try to keep the kids from going to the exit-the-Barrier pickup-point?

kategladstone@mac.com: Hi, Krin!

LanaiHoward: Darn it, Chuck...I was just doing the figurative appendectomy.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Doc. Welcome Krin135: Steph, Os, David, David, Howard, Krin135: Kate, Krin135: whew...and the rest of you folks

starfall2 has entered the room.

AGplusone: Of course they did. Live on the peaks of hills and follow your sects prophet. Great life!

aggirlj: <----Jane

Merfilly27: hey

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jackie.

kategladstone@mac.com: After all, I can't imagine that Coventry's Scudderites (in FUTL or the short story "Coventry") would just LET their kids walk out to where they could get the proper briefing to rejoin society.

starfall2: hi Krin135: oh? on what, Howard?

Bookman99R: So let's found the rational Anarchist's club: Who can be a member? Krin135: hi Jane Krin135: Rusty

AGplusone: Sorta like Eleanor Johnson, right?

kategladstone@mac.com: Wouldn't they tell the kids to "stay away from there because Satan dwells in that place" or something? Krin135: Dee TheCOinOz: probably most people here would qualify.

AGplusone: Of course they do.

Bookman99R: hi, Chuck

DavidWrightSr: Everybod already is a member of the Rational Anarchists Club.

BPRAL22169: I'm a little vague on what point is being approached.

kategladstone@mac.com: Define "rational" - then we have 1/2 the membership requirements. (would we all pass?) ;-)

aggirlj: Hi Chuck.

Merfilly27: lol

Bookman99R: lol, Dave

LanaiHoward: Chuck, someone was talking about Marxian value in taking out appendices...I was suggesting the real value was in the anesthesia. Krin135: Kate, I'm not even sure I could pass 'rational' right now

kategladstone@mac.com: I'd hate to undergo the knife sans anesthesia.

Merfilly27: I know I'm none too rational now...too many juveniles Krin135: mmm...the value of the anesthesiologist is in the waking ujp TheCOinOz: I don't think I'd like to let a labourer take out my appendix, even with an anaesthetic. Krin135: up...

Bookman99R: It _is_ amazing how rigid and conformist some "counterculture" groups can be

OscagneTX: FWIU, the communist took lots of appendices out . . . to keep folks from finding out the meanings of ungood words. (that was weak) Krin135: chuckle...yep, Rusty...esp the teen groups

Bookman99R: (Often in the name of "freedom" TheCOinOz: Assuming that he knew how to give enough to not stop me waking up TheCOinOz: That would be an additional hazard.

kategladstone@mac.com: Back in the Roman Empire, they used to give you three stiff drinks (or make you go to the local tavern to buy them), then perhaps a bit of opium, then have a big burly guy knock you out with a blow to the head - NO THANKS!

AGplusone: I like the group near Mormon Meadows ... Colorado City ... that Kate posted.

DavidWrightSr: Wow. 20 at one time, I think that that is a record.

kategladstone@mac.com: You like them? Or you like learning about them? (big difference!) Krin135: that, Oz...is the difference

AGplusone: No, we've had more for Ginny and several guest chats.

OscagneTX: David... other than Mrs. H's wake, I think it is a record.

LanaiHoward: No kidding, RtB. My first wife dated someone (Written up in _It Usually Begins with Ayn Rand_) who styled himself "dictator of a libertarian commune" Kim Kinnison999: concussion/skull fracture is contraindicated with this regimin georule1861: Bill, do you think FUTL helps or hurts RAH's lit'ry reputation, particularly vis-a-vis the reevaluation

kategladstone@mac.com: How did the libertarian commune operate? (I haven't yet read the book you named) Krin135: Kim...the concussion is easy...the fracture harder

kategladstone@mac.com: Yeah, but the Romans might not have figured that out ... georule1861: of thematic progression over his career.

AGplusone: Dictatorship

kategladstone@mac.com: ... sometimes, in point of fact, the big burly guys would just hold you down instead of knocking you out.

kategladstone@mac.com: It depended on your doctor, I guess. Krin135: chuckle...even as late as the American uncivil war

LanaiHoward: CO, I once heard an anesthesiologist describe his job as "killing people, but not quite." Also said putting you to sleep was easy, getting you to wake up was the challenge

Merfilly27: FUTL still picks up RAH's reputation of looking ahead, IMHO

kategladstone@mac.com: My sister, an anesthesiologist, says just the same. Krin135: and into the Crimean war...it was a point of pride in how fast a surgeon could operatge Krin135: operate

Bookman99R: "Libertarian dictator" lol

BPRAL22169: Geo, "helps" or "hurts" is a question-begging term. It cannot hurt to have it in print -- and I seriously doubt it will cause a dip in his commercial reputation, which is another matter entirely. Krin135: that is very apt, HOward

LanaiHoward: vewwwy, vewwwy strangely. Jared wore a black jumpsuit with a gold dollar sign on the chest much of the time, keeping his golden cape for formal occasions. Krin135: BP....if The Movie (spit!) didn't cause a dip in RAH's commercial rep

Reilloc has entered the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: Some kinds of anesthesia *don't* anesthetize - they just prevent your brain from keeping a mental record of the pain you underwent (like disabling your built-in SAVE button) - or so I have heard (e.g., "twilight sleep).

Bookman99R: Yeh, I recall your post

AGplusone: What do we think about the argument that a first time reader shouldn't be referred to FUTL? Is that a valid point, especially if readers have no preconception what to expect?

kategladstone@mac.com: I'd have loved to see him in his jumpsuit! Krin135: there is *nothing* that you can publish that would cause a problem georule1861: I was thinking of people like Asimov who wished that RAH's progression had stopped in 1956, never

aggirlj: I was commenting on that earlier.

BPRAL22169: Yeah. If he could survive Starship hock-ptui Troopers the movie, FUTL aint going to hurt him

DavidWrightSr: I think that it should provide a tremendous springboard into the study of RAH simply because of the vast amount of concepts that have their seeds there. georule1861: realizing that in fact the later Heinlein was always there, muzzled until he could cut loose. . . Krin135: Kate, the drugs we use now a days for that are supposed to be used

LanaiHoward: yes kate -- dissociative anesthesia, as with ketamine and droperidol. Probably more used for quick painful procedures like dressing changes in burn patients Krin135: with at least analgesics...if not true anesthetics

kategladstone@mac.com: I worry (and suspect others may worryt) that people likely to enjoy most of RAH may not "cotton to" FUTL, and _vice_versa_, because of the change in RAH's attitudes after writing FUTL.

Merfilly27: I think the foreword and afterword do a good job of saying this is not his norm, but a sketch of what he could be

BPRAL22169: Change of attitudes?

DavidWrightSr: I don't really see that change myself.

aggirlj: I think it says a hell of a lot for him and what he must have learned after writing this.

kategladstone@mac.com: YUes, when I had such anesthesia I had it with loads of analgesics. But I've heard stories about mistakes/omissions (remember, my trade concerns medical errors).

AGplusone: would be ... maybe ... smoother, better, but here it is unadulaterated, Stephanie?

Bookman99R: change of "sales pitches", perhaps

Caine1959: to me, the forward and afterward were some of the most rewarding parts

DavidWrightSr: Well, not completely that is.

Merfilly27: I don't either...FUTL fits too well with "later" RAH for me

LanaiHoward: Right, Chuck. Stress and shock doesn't need higher brain activity to be triggered.

kategladstone@mac.com: I preferred the Foreword and Afterword to at least some of what I read in-between.

AGplusone: Nice to see you here, Ron, btw.

Merfilly27: Yes, David, that's it

BPRAL22169: It's true, FUTL seems more seamless with To Sail Beyond the Sunset than with, say, Time for the Stars.

LanaiHoward: Kate, other than for the most trivial things, it would be extremely rare to use only one or two drugs in surgical anesthesia a57thornton: different audience

Merfilly27: or, more like an filled in outline, not quite a true book georule1861: I wanted to argue with Spider (I think) about defining "public work" in such a way as to exclude WWII. . . Krin135: I've not had a chance to finish it...

kategladstone@mac.com: Question - if you woke up tomorrow in FUTL-world (like Perry in the novel), would you like to live there? Why or why not?

Caine1959: yep, quite a while...nice to see the discussions are still raging on...lol

Bookman99R: nor I, getting there, though

AGplusone: ;-) Dehede011: I wouldn't like it, it is to neat and organized.

LanaiHoward: Grumph. Would I not have to deal with medical insurance in that world? :-(

Merfilly27: I would...only if I could live away from much of the populace like Dian'

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes - and my surgery (which I won't discuss - sigh with relief, folks!) definitely fell into the non-trivial class. As I said, I got "loads of stuff" - some of which left me slightly "stoned" for the day. Krin135: you should be lucky, Howard...

DavidWrightSr: I'd love some neat and orgainized at the moment:-D

LanaiHoward: Anybody notice that FUTL had NO ADVERTISING?

OscagneTX: It seemed like all the people in FUTL-world had the passion boiled out of them.

aggirlj: Would I like not to be able to work if I *wanted * to. Krin135: Os, that would tie into at least some of the stuff in "ITGO"

Merfilly27: I had hoped to see advertising, if only to bring his name back to the forefront

AGplusone: I sort of like the idea of not enough drudgery to go around ...

Bookman99R: is advertising needed in a manged economy, Howard?

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes - no advertising, no strong passion: change the "wild wolves" of BEYOND THIS HORIZON to "tame collies," and you get FUTL. georule1861: I'd argue all those people working who didn't "have" to were exhibiting passion. . .

kategladstone@mac.com: Possibly ...

aggirlj: Yeah, I could do that!

AGplusone: Heck, I coulda been working on THS for years already now.

BPRAL22169: Are we talking about two different things? Didn't you mean (Kate) that S&S didn't promote the book?

OscagneTX: I suppose that depends on your definition of passion.

LanaiHoward: I like that (adds "economy with mange" to the margin of my econ textbook) TheCOinOz: This seemed to apply in BTH as well, to extent that team sports and the like seemed to be non-existent, a concept I considered highly unlikely given human nature to be honest, especially given the 'wolf v sheep' structure.

Merfilly27: Unfortunately, I'd be a lzy good fer nothing

kategladstone@mac.com: Had I learned of THS, say, 10 or 20 years ago (did it exist then?), Id have joined immediately. TheCOinOz: The Man who was too Lazy to Fail is a good example that what might be seen as Krin135: Os...what's the passage about the Appolonian vs Dionysisan cults?

Bookman99R: LOL - best use of typo" - I nominate Howard! TheCOinOz: lazyness isn't necessarily so.

kategladstone@mac.com: ... but a "lazy good-for-nothing" who doesn't impoverish or otherwise harm others. Fun in the sun with your sweetie, no nasty job to distract.

LanaiHoward: Kate, are some of the masters turning wolf-essence into learning?

Merfilly27: speaking of...did anyone see him on page 30

Caine1959: Hate to say it, but my prediction is that it will hit the bargin bins in the not too distant future...

Caine1959: People who read Heinlein will "get it" but it won't have the staying power of the award winners or "modern" meganovels of his later years TheCOinOz: I'm no fan of so called 'honest work' either.

BPRAL22169: Remainder table -- yeah, quite likely. georule1861: People "in the know" seem happy with the hardback sales so far.

kategladstone@mac.com: I can VERY easily see the Masters of FUTL as the society's (few) wolves challenging wolfness into learning.

Merfilly27: our BN had to reorder...rare for a scifi here

Caine1959: i was happy the SFBC was offering it so soon

BPRAL22169: Oh, yes, it should do well in its initial release. TheCOinOz: gotta go folks, nice chatting, catch you next time. I have to go to lunch now. Krin135: later Oz

Bookman99R: bye, OZ

OscagneTX: later, Oz.

NYC20CnLtd: Bye, Oz

Caine1959: bye Oz

AGplusone: They seem to be getting ready for another printing from what I'm reading between the lines in Dula's letters.

aggirlj: By oz TheCOinOz has left the room. Dehede011: Bye, Oz

AGplusone: By Oz

Merfilly27: I made notes of the various future terms/characters/ideas as I read

kategladstone@mac.com: I worry that people who first meet RAH via FUTL will expect to find nothing better in other RAH books and will thus ignore them - but cheers for the second printing!

LanaiHoward: "A nun kneeling in her cell may be in greater ecstasy than a priestess of Pan Priapus celebrating the vernal equinox" -- or were you thinking of Appolonian cultures being nonaggressve? Krin135: that's the one, Howard...

BPRAL22169: Oh, that's from Stranger, noit FUTL, isn't it?

DavidWrightSr: If Major OZ joins us in future, then we will have two OZes O:-)

kategladstone@mac.com: What do you folks think of the future psychotherapy that Perry undergoes?

BPRAL22169: I don't think it'

Merfilly27: Kate, as long as they read the words before and after, I don't think it will be detrimental

BPRAL22169: s psychotherapy Krin135: indicating that an outward dispassion might not coincide with inward feelings

BPRAL22169: It's "Semantic reorientation."

kategladstone@mac.com: E.g., what (if anything) did he gain from having to find all possible definitions of "apple"?

OscagneTX: Ok, Howard, that's great for the nun, but if they have a society of nuns, I would be very very bored.

AGplusone: I think Clute's point is valid. Psyhrinking didn't get as far as he or Campbell thought it might.

Merfilly27: lol, Osc

kategladstone@mac.com: Enlighten me (and others) about this "semantic reorientation" - I've heard the term before ;-) but I want details, details, details!

Bookman99R: Sheep tail/ leg, BRPAL?

AGplusone has left the room.

Caine1959: hmmmm.... "get thee to a nunnery".... always liked that line Dehede011: Have any of you read some of the erotic poetry of Catholic or other clergy??

Merfilly27: learning to think your words most carefully, Kate

Merfilly27: :-)

kategladstone@mac.com: I agree that reading the foreword/afterword to FUTL should correct many misapprehensions - now that you mention it. The fore/afterword writers did their work VERY well.

BPRAL22169: The "therapy" Perryundergoes IS the explanation, the deetails, Kate. It's a crash course in semantics seen from the outside.

Caine1959: agreed

OscagneTX: by Shakespearian definition of "nunnery"... I wouldn't be bored.

OscagneTX: %^)

Bookman99R: you bet, Osc

aggirlj: :-) You guys.

kategladstone@mac.com: "Learning to think your words most carefully" - a laudable goal, and perhaps a tie-in to the later "Fair Witness" notion.

Caine1959: i was thinking about how it was used in "Number of the Beast"...heh heh

LanaiHoward: the Apollonian/Dionysian split vs aggression definitely doesn't fit the split into instrumental vs. transcendental cultures.

BPRAL22169: RTB, I don't understand your "sheep tail/leg" question

DavidWrightSr: I took Semantic Re-orientation basically to mean the 'correct mapping of language' to reality. I believe that RAH used some phrase like that in several of his books.

AGplusone has entered the room. georule1861: Big "Gulf" theme. Krin135: wb David

AGplusone: Having rrouble wiht AIM ... back.

aggirlj: WB

Merfilly27: agreed Geo

kategladstone@mac.com: Wow - I wonder whether one day the Heinlein Society will offer such "crash courses" ... ? One can always hope ...

kategladstone@mac.com: ;-)

Bookman99R: calling one thing something else - call the tail a leg, how many legs?

OscagneTX: wb

Merfilly27: and your keyboard, David :-) Krin135: brb

AGplusone: d'oh!

DavidWrightSr: Korzybski. Whorf Sapir IMO

Bookman99R: more clear? Kim Kinnison999: hate aim..it usually borks my winsock..and i'm using 2k too

BPRAL22169: OK. But it seemed to me a different kind of thing than we understand "psychotherapy" nowadays.

OscagneTX: AFA, Semantic re-orientation goes... I wouldn't see that Perry needed it... but maybe the guy who wants to call Jupiter an asteroid.

aggirlj: is that windsock. georule1861: Btw, David, you don't show up on my AIM active list yet you're here.

Bookman99R: there's that, too

BPRAL22169: Actually, more Ruth Benedict than Whorf or Sapir, IMO

DavidWrightSr: Which David

LanaiHoward: Kate, undersstandably, it's insight therapy -- psychopharmacology, at todays (and tomorrow's) level is something RAH missed, and Huxley overshot georule1861: agplusone

kategladstone@mac.com: Funny about GULF (where indeed the same think/speak-carefully theme recurred - RAH fulminated against "is" and kept on using it nonetheless ... ;-)

DavidWrightSr: Not in mine either.

BPRAL22169: I think identification is pretty much built into the way we use the language.

Bookman99R: psychothereapy is useful along the lines of self-understanding, in a limited way, no?

Merfilly27: it's about the hour guys, time yet for a break?

kategladstone@mac.com: RAH does mention drugs, as well as talk-therapy, used in the psychotherapeutic centers to deal with certain issues requiring these ...

OscagneTX: So I hear a second for a break? %^)

aggirlj: I second.

BPRAL22169: Happens Perry's therapy didn't require any of these.

kategladstone@mac.com: ... RAH also mentions drugs to "cure the disease of obesity" and I wish the real world would catch up to this.

DavidWrightSr: Second Second

kategladstone@mac.com: Certainly, let's break a while!

OscagneTX: Okay... Break time.

Bookman99R: ok here

Merfilly27: brb then

OscagneTX: Ten minutes.

AGplusone: You also have the change in POV re reorientation that Bill noted in his essay on If This Goes On ...

Merfilly27 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Set a time to reconvene

kategladstone@mac.com: We return in 10 mins then?

NYC20CnLtd: OK.

LanaiHoward has left the room.

aggirlj: brb

kategladstone@mac.com: Fine! Krin135: I'll catch you all later

BPRAL22169: OK -- 7:10 PDT Krin135 has left the room.

OscagneTX: later, chuck.

DavidWrightSr: BTW, I am extremely pleased at the turnout. I was afraid from the afh discussions that people were tired of it.

BPRAL22169: Yeah -- the limited pre-meeting postings were very disappointing.

Bookman99R: bad timing for me, David - I'm home sick tonight

jcgsmtop1: Back from taking care of cats and catching up on the discussions ...

Merfilly27 has entered the room.

Caine1959 has left the room.

Merfilly27: had to switch some things

jcgsmtop1: I agreed with a lot of things Spider said in his intro - that this wouldn't be the book to give a Heinlein newbie ... but from the perspective of seeing the seeds of his later books, I loved it a57thornton: What was the print run of FUTL?

OscagneTX: I just had no real interest in insight in the topics that were already going on...

LanaiHoward has entered the room.

AGplusone: first run I heard was 75 K

DavidWrightSr: Sorry Howard. Too many things happening at once.

AGplusone: They seem to be through that one, and are getting pressure from Estate to run another

DavidWrightSr: I'm AFK for a few minutes.

OscagneTX: I've always read Heinlein primarily for the story-telling. I could not get into the book, and even found myself skipping ahead pretty frequently. a57thornton: Interesting, I heard (and Bill may be able to correct me) that the print run for CWWTW was 200k

AGplusone: Been some time. Scribners was probably somewhat reluctant to plan a full run more than 25 years after.

Merfilly27: Osc, I scanned from the economy speech onwards

aggirlj: b

OscagneTX: f

aggirlj: ?

OscagneTX: back... front.

Reilloc: skinner

kategladstone@mac.com: I decided to come back a bit early. Does anyone else wish (as I wish) that we had seen inside the schools of FUTL-world?

aggirlj: ohhhh Kim Kinnison999 has left the room.

OscagneTX: Pierce

AGplusone: I think a mature reader who's never read Heinlein might be fascinated by FUTL, stylistics aside.

aggirlj: I am reading with a smile

AGplusone: It's an eye-opener even without all the 'story'

BPRAL22169: Yeah, Andy, I think that's right -- the initial printing was 200K, and they reprinted six times in the first year. that's off the top of my head.

kategladstone@mac.com: And I'd like to see those "semantic reorientation" exercises assigned in high school/college classes, just to provoke thought. a57thornton: Not bad for a book that the author refused to submit

kategladstone@mac.com: I wonder whether FUTL might do well as a movie (by someone who groks the book - NOT by P--- V--------, please! a57thornton: for publication

OscagneTX: I thought it had been rejected. Bill?

aggirlj: I agree with you Andy.

AGplusone: Has anyone actually sat down with a chess set, decks of cards, poker chips, etc., and gone through the economic lessons?

BPRAL22169: Yes, it was rejected several times in 1939 through 1940

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes, it got rejected a couple of times & then RAH decided not to pursue it further.

Merfilly27: no Kate, I don't think so

Merfilly27: on the movie

LanaiHoward: semantic reorientation in an age of political correctness (spock voice) Fascinating! a57thornton: My mistake

kategladstone@mac.com: Not yet - but Andy and I plan to do so soon, in order to design a saleable version of the game (perhaps a computer-game) ...

Merfilly27: the same reason I think Stranger should never be made...too intellectual, loses too many nuances in visual media

kategladstone@mac.com: ... perhaps for sale by THS if they like it when we finish it and they see it.

AGplusone: I assume that's a "No" for everyone?

Bookman99R: Agreed, Steph - too much talk & thought

BPRAL22169: FUTL has one thing going for it as a movie property -- the story is VERY simplified; you could at least get almost all of it in.

AGplusone: Anyone doubt it graphically works out?

LanaiHoward: *sigh* there probably won't ever be a movie of "Gentlemen, be Seated"

OscagneTX: I dunno. I think Stranger would make a good "art" movie... sorta like the original Dune.

kategladstone@mac.com: Too bad - I'd LOVE a movie of STRANGER, "too intellectual" or not. a57thornton: Stranger is unfilmable without going the LoTR route: 3 films. a57thornton: minimum 2 hours per film

AGplusone: Mike Cassutt agreed with you, Bill. You could make it a movie, easily ...

kategladstone@mac.com: FIlming FUTL would run into snags given all the nudity, though.

Bookman99R: even there, A57

AGplusone: Not really ....

kategladstone@mac.com: I could live with a trilogy (or even pentalogy) of films to cover STRANGER.

BPRAL22169: The problem is, you're extremely restricted in how much story you can tell in a movie.

kategladstone@mac.com: What does "A57" refer to?

Bookman99R: not enough action to make a film

Merfilly27: I'm unsure of the feasibility TMiaHM, but crossing my fingers

OscagneTX: A57=andy a57thornton: <-- me

Bookman99R: a57thornton

Bookman99R: Hi, Andy

BPRAL22169: I think you could pump up the stunt aviation and rocketry for action.

Merfilly27: there really is no plt, as defined in English 101

Merfilly27: plot

kategladstone@mac.com: TMIAHM has action, and I think that anyone filming FUTL could build the action up without losing integrity - Hi, Andy! - ... georule1861: The LotR gives me some hope that movies I was convinced would have to be mini-series might be doable as movies.

AGplusone: About as much plot as the usual comic book, which is about par for a 120 minute movie.

OscagneTX: I just want to see ST done by Ridley Scott. /still disgruntled/

Bookman99R: Hope is good, Geo georule1861: Tho I think you need that kind of franchize to convince the money guys upfront. Big risk that way.

kategladstone@mac.com: ... play up the fight-scene, add some scenes from other RAH works "with serial #s filed off" - I've some ideas if anyone wants to ask me after the chat (by e-mail or phone).

NYC20CnLtd: I'm inclined to agree. Stranger's problem from a movie-making standpoint are that its heart is the ideas.

Merfilly27: David, I'll pretend not to take offense :-)

AGplusone: ;-)

Bookman99R: I recall the Star Wars, aftermath

kategladstone@mac.com: Of course, add things that will fit into FUTL - e.g., show shots inside Coventry, and rely on that short story for those. a57thornton: I'd rather see UPJH which could be made (and fairly cheaply too)

NYC20CnLtd: A movie that captured the book's core themes would feel like a college lecture.

Merfilly27: UPJH?

OscagneTX: UPJH? georule1861: Unpleasant. . .

Merfilly27: (i'm iggerant)

OscagneTX: ah.

DavidWrightSr: Jonathan Hoag

OscagneTX: Hoag a57thornton: Unpleasent Profession of Johnathan Hoag

AGplusone: Depends on how 'twas done.

Merfilly27: I see

LanaiHoward: RtB, c'mon. Lots of Star Trek relevancies -- a distinct parallel concept in our universe, and the drive for Star Wars Day celebrations

Bookman99R: Possibly a57thornton: (speeling is optinal)

BPRAL22169: It helps if you don't transpose the last two letters of the title. a57thornton: :-(

Merfilly27: (eckzaccly

aggirlj: lol

kategladstone@mac.com: I think that a good director could de-lecture-ize FUTL - but JONATHAN HOAG, yes, would make a FAR better movie (and would draw the chills-and-horror crowd.)

AGplusone: You'd need a Rod Sterling to do Hoag.

NYC20CnLtd: Starship Troopers was more plot-foccused. It's a pity that movie's scriptwriters felt some strange need to rewrite the story.

LanaiHoward: Have to say Hoag is about my least favorite RAH

OscagneTX: Are we ready to start back up?

kategladstone@mac.com: I enjoy Hoag - why do you dislike it?

BPRAL22169: Ridley Scott could do Hoag

kategladstone@mac.com: Sure, resume.

Merfilly27: I'm green for it, Osc

AGplusone: I kinda like the ending ... all that fog outside the windows .... hehehe georule1861: I like much better every time I read it. First time was puzzled.

kategladstone@mac.com: Have Jack Nicholson do Hoag's Potiphar Breen?

AGplusone: And no mirrows in the rooms.

aggirlj: Yeah

kategladstone@mac.com: Hmmm ... how about a movie of ALL YOU ZOMBIES?

AGplusone: mirrors

Bookman99R: No, Howard, I was referring to what Hollyweird did afterwards - they thought they could toss out any junk as a sequel to a successful movie

OscagneTX: I'm getting the idea that I'm the only one who actively dislikes FUTL. So... tell me... am I really standing over here in my own corner, all by myself?

kategladstone@mac.com: Or a movie of BY HIS BOOTSTRAPS, for that matter?

AGplusone: yep

BPRAL22169: Consider that it was written in January of 1942 -- when the Philippines were being overrun by the Japanese. to pay for a gallstone operation for his wife, while living on a couch in John Campbell's living room in New Jersey.

LanaiHoward: No real closure...and the slang is somehow more irritating than say, "Our Fair City"

Merfilly27: Query to all...what idea/item/notion most seemed prescient to you, keeping in mind the 1938/9 writing?

NYC20CnLtd: What about Between Planets?

BPRAL22169: What do you dislike about it?

kategladstone@mac.com: I "passively" dislike FUTL - I'd consider it okay from another author, but not quite up to what I'd come to expect from RAH.

Merfilly27: Osc, you're not...it will be a long time before I re-read

OscagneTX: The flat characters and lack of real plot.

LanaiHoward: Oh: my references were (1) to that which has a light side, a dark side, and holds the universe together. Force = duct tape.

Bookman99R: BP could be done, but HW would likely re-slant from "coming of age" to action/adventure

LanaiHoward: (2) Star Wars Day: May the Fourth be with you

DavidWrightSr: I held my expectations way down for FUTL and I was pleasantly surprised that I had placed them too low.

OscagneTX: But... I _knew_ it was going to be like that from the preface and critiques. I just felt like I "ought to" have read it.

aggirlj: I just got an invite from a DrunkBrat something or other. Can we have that happen hee?

Bookman99R: OK, Howard

aggirlj: here

AGplusone: Block "Drunk Brat"

OscagneTX: invite to what, Jane?

LanaiHoward: Stephanie, it did a better job on universal access to information than most later books. Oddly, IWFNE was also good on that.

BPRAL22169: Hot chat

kategladstone@mac.com: For a great RAH film, make CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY ... for which I've always wished that RAH had stuck with one of his earlier titles for it: THE CHAIN AND THE STARS.

aggirlj: Private chat

NYC20CnLtd: I'm not sure Hollywood can completely trusted witrh any of Heinlein's books. Science fiction requires big budgets--in Hollywood, that means liberal producers.

BPRAL22169: Or it might be an ad with a link to a porn site.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah. I got an invite from 'LuvQueen' or something like that. I declined.

kategladstone@mac.com: And I'd LOVE to see a film of I WILL FEAR NO EVIL (please make Eunice black or at least brown).

OscagneTX: Yeah, Jane. Anyone on AOL or AIM can probly see you're online. Either ignore it or block it.

aggirlj: Thanks.

BPRAL22169: It's actually a form of advertising -- they harvest names from newsgroups and other online sources.

Bookman99R: COTG might actually be workable - as a mystery/thriller, just add a pursuer

Merfilly27: I like what it is...a peek at an early Heinlein mind

LanaiHoward: Agree totally with Citizen by whatever name -- although even as a book, it cried for sequels/prequels more than most RAH

kategladstone@mac.com: Hmmm ... what about a film of IF THIS GOES ON ? It would fit the mood of the times - just check your daily paper!

Merfilly27: But, it has little story worth without trying to flesh it out myslef in fan-fiction mode georule1861: Yeah, CotG screams for a sequel. Wish he'd written it. georule1861: I mean, the ending reads like he *intended* a sequel.

kategladstone@mac.com: Or a film of the Crazy Years story THE YEAR OF THE JACKPOT (from ASSIGNMENT IN ETERNITY), or - from the same book - JERRY WAS A MAN or in fact any other story therein.

Merfilly27: Did Kim have a sequel? Dehede011: Maybe Spider is doing the sequel to CoTG

Bookman99R: I don't think it would have broken the sort of ground RAH liked, Geo

DavidWrightSr: I don't think so. Like ST, COTG recognizes an unending struggle. IMO

kategladstone@mac.com: No - Kim had no sequel ... but THE JUNGLE BOOK had a sequel.

AGplusone: I think btw, it's a little important to mount a very unpresuming campaign to let people know ITGO may be eligible for a Retrospective Hugo. For it's time it was a bombshell.

LanaiHoward: I keep hearing about Eunice as black or brown, but ISTR Joe posing her with his new SO,commenting on the contrast in skin colors, and seeming to give the impression the new woman (forget name) was dark

OscagneTX: I definetly thing most of the short stories would work as movies.

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes! georule1861: It will get mine and Deb's vote on the Novel ballot.

kategladstone@mac.com: What about selling the "shorts" as an anthology-series for TV?

Merfilly27: I thought Kim was the Kipling cognate to COTG

kategladstone@mac.com: With the RIGHT director, of course! (a RAH fan)

aggirlj: Posner David?

AGplusone: And mine of course, and it doesn't hurt to have both it an Starman Jones in the running. Because what votes there are will flop to the other under that Canadian system they use to count.

kategladstone@mac.com: Why not?

kategladstone@mac.com: Any other Kipling/RAH pairings possible? georule1861: ITGO is the keystone of the Future History, and the Future History is one of the milestones in SF.

Bookman99R: Might have worked for the new "Outer Limits", but not weird enough

kategladstone@mac.com: I agree entirely with Geo's statement.

AGplusone: Bill's essay, up on the site, notes how important it was in its time.

LanaiHoward: David, there was a plan developing at the end of CotG. The end of ST projected a finish more like Card's Ender's Game -- a sequel would have had to be more like Xenocide, etc.

kategladstone@mac.com: And its time has come again. georule1861: . . .and the '53 version is the one everyone knows, and quite a bit better in any informed opinion I've ever seen (and nearly twice as long).

kategladstone@mac.com: The public can accept an evil-televangelists film today - they couldn't have, some decades ago. I agree on using the 1953 version.

Merfilly27: I only read the Baen release

AGplusone: If I were writing a followup on GOTG, I'd write both a prequel, the rescue of the traders, and a sequel.

LanaiHoward: When was Elmer Gantry done as a movie?

Bookman99R: you may well be right, Kate

aggirlj: In the 50's I believe.

Merfilly27: Escape From LA (bad movie) gave a glimpse of President Scudder

Bookman99R: you can add in references to various "fallen ones", rather easily, I expect Dehede011: But wasn't Elmer Gantry from an older novel

AGplusone has left the room.

LanaiHoward: You have a problem, Steph, with Pat Robertson with Ashcroft as Commander of the Guard? a57thornton: Sinclair Lewis wrote Elmer Gantry

BPRAL22169: 1960 -- the Burt Lancaster version.

LanaiHoward: (angels of the lord, excuse me) Dehede011: Right

aggirlj: You looked it up didn't you?

DavidWrightSr: Sinclair Lewis in the 30's\

Merfilly27: I was thinking Jerry Falwell

BPRAL22169: Published in 1927

kategladstone@mac.com: Did Elmer Gantry take over America and found a royal dynasty? You couldn't have filmed that a few decades ago - you could now, but Heinlein has ALREADY written that (as ITGO) - so film ITGO !

LanaiHoward: Falwell might be a little more charismatic and a little dumber.

kategladstone@mac.com: Church groups, televangelists, etc., will of course protest and picket - thereby only building our notoriety.

LanaiHoward: Elmer? Not for lack of trying. a57thornton: All advertising is good. Good advertising is better.

OscagneTX: "Be vewwy vewwy kwiet. I'm hunting fundamentawists."

BPRAL22169: Heinlein on film is the Black Hole of chats

kategladstone@mac.com: Too dumb, perhaps - we need someone cynical and hypocritical (remember, he "carries on" with the holy "Virgins" in the style of David Koresh).

aggirlj: Come on over, there right here in my hometown, Colorado Springs, Fundamentawists Capital.

DavidWrightSr: What he did was 'sacred ritual' 8-)

DavidWrightSr: No carrying on.

Bookman99R: Gee, BPRAL, ain't those walls vertical? ;-)

kategladstone@mac.com: And I think we could get a lot of drama about the Cabal scenes (question: will the Masons sue the producer if s/he shows too much of that?) georule1861: Was I the only one who thought that the political history 1939-1950 would have killed it as dead as the sex for any editor?

BPRAL22169: Yeah. Focus on the Family is HQ's there, isn't it?

aggirlj: Uh huh.

NYC20CnLtd: Funny, I thought Jacksonville, Florida had a good corner on the fundamentalist market.

Merfilly27: agreed geo

BPRAL22169: Hmmm. I see a pattern emerging here. Ginny lived in Jacksonville; ginny lived in Colorado springs...

aggirlj: :-)

BPRAL22169: Maybe that's why RAH had to get her out in the country in Santa Cruz...

kategladstone@mac.com: "Sacred ritual" (for Koresh or the Prophet) could and did involve sex, as in many cultures and creeds. Give the marks - uh, viewers - a taste of this. Aim for an R-rating? Or PG-13?

AGplusone has entered the room.

NYC20CnLtd: I think the pattern is that people who knew Mrs. Heinlein are here...

LanaiHoward: Clearly not Miami Beach, the sixth borough of New York

OscagneTX: wb georule1861: You!

BPRAL22169: Sex/Religion/Art - all same.

AGplusone: Back again.

AGplusone: Gantry is from the 1920s by Sinclair Lewis, right, movie in 1960.

Bookman99R: No politics in the S/R/A arc?

BPRAL22169: 1927

aggirlj: BTW, I went to RAH's house over Xmas, I am nw the official guide.

AGplusone: Two years before RAH graduated.

BPRAL22169: I think politics is how you get to S/R/A

OscagneTX: politics IS S/R/A... it's holy to screw people creatively.

kategladstone@mac.com: I would *love* to see a movie of GULF ... but just who will design Speedtalk and teach the actors to speak it? ;-)

aggirlj: now

LanaiHoward: Don't forget sacred ritual for Foster. OTOH, at some level, Foster gave ecstasy as well as took it.

Bookman99R: mebbe so

kategladstone@mac.com: Now, David! ;-) ;-)

AGplusone: They do it like Kligon, Kate. Dehede011: Ginny said there was no speedtalk

AGplusone: Klingon

BPRAL22169: Sex and no-sex arethe same thing in religion, just two sides of same coin.

kategladstone@mac.com: Scudder and his heirs may have given ecstasy - or at least contentment - but at far too high a price.

LanaiHoward: Is Klingon a cinematic prequel of Speedtalk? Anyway, how would the audience understand Speedtalk? Subtitles would seem to detract from its essence

Bookman99R: Yep, Howard - and as I mentioned earlier, ritual can be a payoff in itself

kategladstone@mac.com: Ginny said "no speedtalk"? GULF loses a lot without it - well, I guess we just make it up as Marc Okrand systematically made up Klingon.

AGplusone: They use subtitles in ST whatever. Dehede011: BTW, I think I could design something very close to speedtalk using Cherokee as my starting point

DavidWrightSr: Unlike the usual sub-titles that takes 3 minutes of dialog and translates into 10 words. :-)

LanaiHoward: No, I don't think the Prophet gave ecstasy. Consider the condition of his remains after the assault on New Jerusalem

Bookman99R: subtitles: not if you put up a paragraph for 2 sec.s, Howard

OscagneTX: Perhaps he gave Extacy.

AGplusone: Or one word of dialogue and two paragraphs of subtitle.

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes, subtitles-with-Speedtalk COULD very easily make the point re Speedtalk's efficiency: [spoken dialogue:] "BLORT! DDENT has entered the room.

OscagneTX: howdy

Bookman99R: be a sales point for the DVD, no?

kategladstone@mac.com: [subtitle:] [some really lengthy sentence.

kategladstone@mac.com: Hi, Oscagne!

DavidWrightSr: "The far horizon draws no nearer" DDENT: Hi everyone

LanaiHoward: BLERT! Wait a minute...have cats been speaking Speedtalk all along?

AGplusone: Pixel does.

OscagneTX: No, they're telepathic.

AGplusone: Why shouldn't they?

AGplusone: Got a kick out of Robinson's using Pixel to give them the time coordinates in Callahans Con.

kategladstone@mac.com: Have the dialogue take 2 seconds but the subtitle stays on-screen for 15 seconds or more, so that all may read it.

Bookman99R: well, with cats on the board, better avoid the food crossover DDENT has left the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: Would THE CAT WHO WALKS THROUGH WALLS make a good film? How about THE DOOR INTO SUMMER ?

aggirlj: Speaking of food. I've got to go to dinner. See you on Saturday.

kategladstone@mac.com: Goodbye, Jane!

OscagneTX: 'night, Jane.

Bookman99R: No, Kate - don't let them read it - emphasize the speed

Bookman99R: night, Jane

aggirlj: Bye for now:-)

aggirlj has left the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: Okay, the subtitles should just flash on screen for no longer than we hear the dialogue. Good point!

AGplusone: Throw a couple equations in there ....

AGplusone: hehe SciFiman33: I Just finished TDIS and thought it would make a great movie!

Bookman99R: HWood had a bad habit of obsessively cleaning up loos ends

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes - have somebody say "Shript," or some such syllable, and the screen displays Maxwell's equations as the translation thereof.

Bookman99R: just make sure that the dialog drives the scene

Bookman99R: yeah, like that, too!

kategladstone@mac.com: And milk Joe's "language lesson" frustrations for all you can.

Bookman99R: true

AGplusone: Sorta say: "Plan B" in shorthand ... all spelled out in longhand, then do it.

AGplusone: E.g., I've decided we should take this one for a horsie ride, for the following reasons ... then take him on one from which he doesn't come back.

Merfilly27: Was McCarthyism so obviously on the horizon in 1938/9?

LanaiHoward: kate, I had professors that wrote amd erased on the board that way. Or, to the old programers, is Speedtalk APL?

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes, indeed! - all neatly codified as "Mrifs" or something similar.

kategladstone@mac.com: I referred to "Operation Horsie-Ride-of-Death," of course. a57thornton: The 30's had Father Coughlin - he was much worse than McCarthy

LanaiHoward: Steph...not over the horizon. Look at Father Coughlin, and, in a perhaps more benign way, Huey Long georule1861: Not by that name. But there was a previous occurrence of anti-communism to predict another one by.

kategladstone@mac.com: Would FRIDAY make a good film?

DavidWrightSr: No APL can be totally incomprehensible even when you wrote it yourself. :-D

kategladstone@mac.com: We could use the Speedtalk there, too. a57thornton: 1920's Red Raids

Merfilly27: Okay...see, I'm a history buff...exclusive of modern history, especially American

Bookman99R: it would have to be cut down a lot, Kate

kategladstone@mac.com: Certainly - cut it, or halve it (make it into two movies).

Bookman99R: a lot of theory would have to go out the door

Bookman99R: maybe convert it into a "run for your life" movie?

LanaiHoward: Actually, I never did production APL -- but I did do early MUMPS. there is such charm to self-modifying code that than overlays itself.

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes - Run for your life!

AGplusone has left the room.

AGplusone has entered the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: Possible slogan for film: "EVERYBODY's after Friday - but she may not live till Saturday."

Bookman99R: it's common enough: "Enemy of the State", "Total Recall"

OscagneTX: Can't make up your mind, David? %^)

AGplusone: Boy, that was a thrill ... no I've got all of AIM back with my buddy list and all.

kategladstone@mac.com: Hmmm ... would METHUSELAH'S CHILDREN make a good flick, given its action/adventure/escape elements?

Bookman99R: AOL sex, David?

kategladstone@mac.com: Welcome back, David! Dehede011: Folks, my appointed hour has come. I have to write an email inre a defective program and then get ready for bed.

Merfilly27: And, how many times has their been an electoral versus popluar vote imbalance?

kategladstone@mac.com: Good night, Ron!

Bookman99R: 'night, Ron

Merfilly27: nite Ron

OscagneTX: g'night Ron. Dehede011: Nite. Dehede011 has left the room.

AGplusone: that too, but we don't tell the profane about getting that feature. Go'nite Ron.

NYC20CnLtd: 'night. Ron. georule1861: Yeah, I gotta got too. If I remember I'll be back Saturday. . .

kategladstone@mac.com: Good night, Geo.

Merfilly27: ok, Geo, nite

OscagneTX: g'night Geo. georule1861 has left the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: Would some of the EXPANDED UNIVERSE stories make good films, do you think?

AGplusone: Three times before Stephanie.

Merfilly27: before or after 1938?

AGplusone: Twice before then.

Merfilly27: ok...it came up in FUTL

AGplusone: The Jefferson-Adams, and Tilden-whoever was the Republican crook.

kategladstone@mac.com: How about AFTER THE BLOWUP where Foreign Bad Guys Have Bombed Us And Taken Over?

kategladstone@mac.com: Or some slightly updated SIXTH COLUMN/DAY AFTER TOMORROW?

kategladstone@mac.com: A non-RAH film someone should make: "Great Crooks of the White House."

Merfilly27: Any scientists in the house?

AGplusone: In Jefferson-Adams-Burr there was a 3 way split.

Merfilly27: I noted he mentioned what equated to mag trains in FUTL

kategladstone@mac.com: I don't count as a scientist. Lump me in with the peasants & animals. ;-)

AGplusone: Tilden won the popular majority like Gore.

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes, I noted the maglev trains, too.

BPRAL22169: How does the way Perry Nelson got to the future square, if at all, with RAH's other "mystical" views?

kategladstone@mac.com: ... and also the electric razors.

Merfilly27: he used the term refresher/'fresher

AGplusone: 'simply 'hand-waving' . . . ' about as well as most Utopia.

Bookman99R: Peasant? I'm part of an autonomous collective

kategladstone@mac.com: Well, Perry Nelson's trip forwards in time involved reincarnation of a sort (according to the Hindu fellow we meet).

Merfilly27: did he coin that for bathrooms? a57thornton has left the room.

AGplusone: Did you like the ballistics from Friday in

kategladstone@mac.com: And Diane looks (save for clothes) just like the girl he saw before losing consciousness - which could make Diane her reincarnation (or, let's face it, just her descendant, or just Perry's dying dream).

DavidWrightSr: As I said earlier, you can treat it much like Piper with Dunne's concept of the 'Oh heck can't think of the word.

AGplusone: FUTL, Steph?

OscagneTX: I thought we were a *unintelligible* commune.

Bookman99R: never saw "refresher" used before RAH used it, Steph

BPRAL22169: Exstraphysical Ego Component?

kategladstone@mac.com: " 'Fresher" in RAH and much other SF refers to a high-tech combined bath/shower/toilet/etc. facility.

Merfilly27: I caught that...one of the "what of this went into another book"

OscagneTX: That's the only place I've seen 'fresher, in Heinlein books.

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: Niven or someone also uses " 'fresher."

AGplusone: Quite a while later

Merfilly27: Niven accords RAH as an influence

LanaiHoward has left the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: And I think Poul Anderson has it somewhere - yes, much later than RAH in both cases.

Merfilly27: and Anderson did as well

Merfilly27: I liked seeing the ubiqitous 'kilt' in the book

Merfilly27: the cat reminded me of the one in PM

kategladstone@mac.com: Did anyone notice, in FUTL, that Diana's bookshelf includes a book "GALLIONS [future spelling] OF THE GODS, 1946, Upton Sinclair" - a title that RAH much later re-used for his earliest draft of what became NUMBER OF THE BEAST ?

AGplusone: At least he didn't put the men in chemises ... like BTH, pink ones. SciFiman33 has left the room.

OscagneTX: Is anyone in contact with Howard?

DavidWrightSr has entered the room. You have just entered room "Heinlein Readers Group Chat."

AGplusone: Ah, yes ....

Merfilly27: neat, Kate, did not know that

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes, I love those kilts! - did any SF writer before RAH put men into kilts?

OscagneTX: He asked me to reinvite him, then became unavailable.

BPRAL22169: He never actually used that title -- he mentioned it in a letter, as a possibliity.

Bookman99R: my glasses broke a couple days back

OscagneTX: Okay.. he did it again.

Bookman99R: this is all my peepers can handle

AGplusone has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Sorry. I got dropped somehow. Os or David please send me what I missed later.

Merfilly27: Take care Rusty

Bookman99R: g'nite, folks

OscagneTX: g'night, rusty.

kategladstone@mac.com: Oh, yes, right. That title wouldn't have worked, much though I love it - too chose to von Da:niken's CHARIOTS OF THE GODS of fake-science fame.

Merfilly27 has left the room.

Bookman99R: (Mebbe Sat - we'll see

starfall2 has left the room.

Bookman99R has left the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: I meant "too close to von D's CHARIOTS" ;-(

DavidWrightSr: I was going to say that EPC was Piper's term, but Dunne used another which I mentioned in my article, but can't remember now. I'll look it later and insert it here.

AGplusone has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Nothing rises to mind, David.

Merfilly27 has entered the room.

OscagneTX: wb.

Merfilly27: lost you guys thru AIM

kategladstone@mac.com: I got an IM from LanaiHoward asking me to invite her back - but she instantly turned unavailable, then available again - I asked her how to invite her back, but she hasn't answered. How do I do it?

Merfilly27: so I'm in thru AOL

BPRAL22169: Andy says he got locked out.

AGplusone: Think AOL is stinting on service again. First time I've been bumped in months, and five times tonight.

OscagneTX: Howard is a guy, Kate.

kategladstone@mac.com: I just don't get it. Thanks for correcting on

LanaiHoward's gender.

AGplusone: Use Cmd-T, Kate, and then type names in

NYC20CnLtd: I'm on AIM and haven't had any problems. However, I need to be invited to chat rooms--I can't go to one on my own.

OscagneTX: He's asked me thrice, now, and I haven't gotten him any time.

Merfilly27 has left the room.

Merfilly27 has entered the room.

kategladstone@mac.com: So how do I invite him back, since he wants it?

AGplusone: see above

kategladstone@mac.com: "Command-T" opens my typeface menu.

Merfilly27: I sent an invite

AGplusone: You're using AIM

AGplusone: ?

kategladstone@mac.com: Thanks - opening my typeface menu (Command-T) wouldn't have worked.

kategladstone@mac.com: What does it on a Mac using iChat?

Merfilly27: he's not showing as being on

NYC20CnLtd: (AOL Instant Messenger)

AGplusone: I'm showing him not on either.

kategladstone@mac.com: I suspect a software bug (or spam from name-grabbing software?)

AGplusone: I don't use iChat

Merfilly27: he and I lost connectivity about the same time...where's he at, geographically?

kategladstone@mac.com: I see LNC/reilloc logged in here, but he hasn't said a word all evening.

LanaiHoward has entered the room.

OscagneTX: Tadaa!

AGplusone: DC, steph

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Howard! YOU MADE IT!!!!!!!

LanaiHoward: Am I here yet?

kategladstone@mac.com: Plainly, yes.

Caine1959 has entered the room.

OscagneTX: I see you.

AGplusone: Yep, back

kategladstone@mac.com: Hello, Caine!

Caine1959: is it just me or is AIM having problems tonight?

Merfilly27: AIM is btonight

DavidWrightSr: It's AIM.

AGplusone: AIM is having problems. I've been dumpted 5 times.

NYC20CnLtd: the people I can see are: OscagneTx, kategladstone@mac.com,

jcgsmtop1, BPRAL22169, Reilloc, DavidWrightSr, AGplusone, Merfilly27,

LanaiHoward, Caine1959, and myself. Is anyone hidden from my list?

OscagneTX: I've still got everything for the moment.

kategladstone@mac.com: One thing I wish I knew about FUTL (or about the road from reality-of-1939 to FUTL) - how did they get people to change the way they spelled English?

Merfilly27: I prefer to go in thru AIM, but AOL will suffice

Caine1959: i tried to use this new link and it totally screwed my program... like i tell my teachers, rebooting helps

OscagneTX: I think you've got everyone, NYC.

Caine1959: gradually i would guess

Merfilly27: Kate...seen the changes in grammar now taught as correct?

DavidWrightSr: Example. Steph?

NYC20CnLtd: The only problem I have getting here is a restless cat on my lap.

BPRAL22169: The same way we stopped spelling with "our" and went to "or" or stopped using the funny-shaped "s" that looks like an "f'

Merfilly27: I have fits, because things I learned (28 y.o.) are wrong

kategladstone@mac.com: Yes, I've seen the changes in grammar - but spelling changes FAR more slowly.

LanaiHoward: If I must be booted, I prefer it be by black patent fetishistic ones, elegantly worn.

AGplusone: Less change in that time period as the period of the 16th century when spelling became regularized by printing.

NYC20CnLtd: lol.

Caine1959: English is always changing....look at the chat speach on computers

Caine1959: speech

Merfilly27: for instance verbs once taught to have alternate spellings for past tense can now be -ed added on the end

kategladstone@mac.com: Little changes do happen gradually, but biggish changes (such as RAH shows) might need more effort to become official in a literate society.

AGplusone: Read a Gower poem sometime.

DavidWrightSr: Any language which is used a lot will always change.

OscagneTX: In my tech writing class last semester, one twit turned in her "intro" letter with net style smilies... %^)\

LanaiHoward: Caine, have you read The Victorian Internet? Much of "chat speech" was anticipated by wire telegraphers and hams, but somehow seems inelegant in its present form.

Merfilly27: I actually saw the changes as a product of a less literate culture holding sway for a period

AGplusone: Or Caxton's Morte d'Arthur

kategladstone@mac.com: Please give some examples of those verbs - you mean that "be/was" has become "be/beed"? Or what? Surely this doesn't apply to all verbs pronounced irregularly?

BPRAL22169: I dunno, Kate -- perhaps at the time of the Covenant they made a lot of changes -- the way the French adopted the metric system and the new calendar at the same time.

Merfilly27: Conjugate swim

kategladstone@mac.com: Probably - I would have liked to see a little more on that, because the USA has a LONG history of people trying to promote such changes and *failing*

kategladstone@mac.com: Swim, swam, swum. Why?

AGplusone: INT QSA QSR, Howard?

Merfilly27: it is now acceptable to write/say swimmed

kategladstone@mac.com: What, Jane?

DavidWrightSr: swim, swimmed, have swimmed :-(

kategladstone@mac.com: I have never yet seen or heard "swimmed" - where and from whom have you seen/heard this?

LanaiHoward: some level of my irritation with chat speech is that it only marginally, at best, speeds communication with modern tools -- telegraphy was truly bandwidth limited.

OscagneTX: I swimmed good.

Merfilly27: in the english book of a girl ten years younger than I

Caine1959: hmmmm....i c....I tell my wife that in WV, "eat, ate, et" is the tensing of to eat....she almost believed it the first time heh heh

kategladstone@mac.com: Do you have a list of the words that have regularized (such as "swim" by your statement)?

LanaiHoward: QRM, perhaps.

kategladstone@mac.com: And her teacher marked it correct?

AGplusone: :-)

Merfilly27: no, Kate, I got disgusted with the bastardizing of the language

DavidWrightSr: I certainly hope not. I'd hate to lose that old indo-european holdover O:-)

Merfilly27: it was in her text

LanaiHoward: swim, swam, drowned?

AGplusone: Navy telegraphers - 4Q

Caine1959: heh

kategladstone@mac.com: "Eat, ate [or 'et'], et [or 'eat' pronounced 'et'] pre-dates the current standard usage of "eat, ate, eaten."

Merfilly27: lol Caine

BPRAL22169: Just because an ignorant teacher marks it correct, does not mean it is "accepted."

LanaiHoward: Marine telegraphers use two big rocks? Definitely bandwidth limited

kategladstone@mac.com: - as Shakespeare could have told you. ;-)

kategladstone@mac.com: "QRM"?

Merfilly27: I'm not saying it was homework, I'm saying it was in the text book that way

AGplusone: Especially since they have to transmit in Navajo.

kategladstone@mac.com: But some (many) things now correct *did* start as errors: "washed" started as an ignorant error (in the Middle Ages) for the then-correct-and-universal "wesh."

Merfilly27: another for instance, has anyone read the 'new' translations of the bible?

OscagneTX: If we're about done with the formal chat, I'm going to toddle off to bed. Shall we end the formal log?

kategladstone@mac.com: Show me that textbook, Merfilly! Or at least give me the citation (title, date, publisher, page number) and tell me any other verbs that this book regularizes.

AGplusone: seems fair ...

kategladstone@mac.com: Sure - if Merfilly will scan (or cite) that textbook-page for me.

kategladstone@mac.com: ;-)

Merfilly27: Kate, if I can find it, I will but said girl is now out of school

AGplusone: How are you doing on the log, Joe?

Merfilly27: My own child starts this year

Merfilly27: :-)

kategladstone@mac.com: Thanks! Can you write to her school? They presumably know what books their teachers use.

OscagneTX: I've got everything so far.

OscagneTX: saved.

AGplusone: okay

Merfilly27: I can research

OscagneTX: Alright then... unless I hear objection...

DavidWrightSr: I've got everything except the small section when I was booted off

kategladstone@mac.com: Very well, then. I'll log off. THANKS, Steph, for your promise to try to find it!

Merfilly27: no objection and shall see one and all Saturday

AGplusone: G'nite all.

kategladstone@mac.com: Good night! - till Saturday!

OscagneTX: Formal log ended: 9:52 Central.

AGplusone: See you Saturday

Merfilly27: I must toddle off to rescue my cat and feed my son

kategladstone@mac.com has left the room.

OscagneTX: See you all saturday.

BPRAL22169: Good night

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

Merfilly27 has left the room.

OscagneTX has left the room.

Caine1959: night all!

NYC20CnLtd: Can't promise to be here Saturday.

AGplusone: nite Ron

AGplusone: still use your help on Library Cmte

AGplusone: which is taking shape now

Caine1959: did you ever find a librarian?

AGplusone: No, but we found some victims who are plowing ahead.

jcgsmtop1: Night

jcgsmtop1 has left the room.

Caine1959: hmmmm

LanaiHoward: G'night.

Caine1959: nite

AGplusone: e-mail aggirlj@mac.com

AGplusone: she'll appreciate any help

LanaiHoward has left the room.

AGplusone: take care ....

NYC20CnLtd: You too.

AGplusone has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Night All.

NYC20CnLtd: 'night.

End of Discussion Log


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