morganuci:
To begin, there's Gilliam Boardman, "a little girl who was
about to go charging out and maybe get herself killed ...all guts and gallantry
but too ignorant to be allowed to monkey was sucha buzz saw; ..."
morganuci:
Which character said that, David?
AGplusone:
A question you
posed was "is there any development" of female characters, and I wondered about
the three fronts in particular ... that ties into the 'still serves coffee'
thing Not very new wits posted. Jubal said that.
morganuci:
Well, Jubal's the voice of God, so it must be correct :-)
AGplusone:
To Ben shortly
after he gets freed from wherever the SS had him, and is drying out.
AGplusone:
Explaining why
Jubal got involved.
AGplusone:
So it's an excuse
to justify Jubal's doing what he did.
morganuci:
Well, I think he's right that she's ignorant of politics.
She says so herself earlier on.
AGplusone:
and maybe untrue
morganuci:
You don't think she'd get herself into the same trouble
Ben was in, or worse?
morganuci:
Ignorant != stupid, of course. (!= means does not equal in
programmer speak)
Motherthing2002 has
entered the chat room.
AGplusone:
I think it's
likely she would, but whether it's Jubal's real reason is another question.
Bookman99R:
well, she wasn't equipped to play 007
NuclearWasteUSN has
entered the chat room.
Bookman99R:
hi, milady
Bookman99R:
hi, Nuke
AGplusone:
Jubal may just be
looking for an excuse to tilt windmills, i.e., bored with sitting around the
pool in the Pocomos.
NuclearWasteUSN:
Call me
that again and I will not be pleased
Motherthing2002:
hello there, honey
Bookman99R:
lol
AGplusone:
Jim works.
morganuci:
OK, we're talking about the women, not Jubal's motivations
(unless they're women). I think Jubal did need some action to get his blood
circulating again.
Bookman99R:
anyway, the current one is Gillian Boardman
Motherthing2002:
what men have any motivation other than women?
Bookman99R:
gay ones?
morganuci:
Power?
Motherthing2002:
poor fellas
NuclearWasteUSN:
Thank you
MT I was afraid to point out the obvious
Motherthing2002:
with power comes women
AGplusone:
Even if you're too
old to have the "gallant reflex" as Jubal thinks he is?
Motherthing2002:
yep
Motherthing2002:
with money comes women
Major oz:
Jubal may have
been somewhat infatuated by a woman who was niave.
Bookman99R:
some women do hear the call to Power, and same with men
AGplusone:
So sophisticated
about medical care--what nurse isn't--but idealistic about life.
Motherthing2002:
I can see that, Jill was niave but his secretaries
were decidedly worldly
Bookman99R:
well, RAH was fond of casting his charachters in classic
roles, now & then
Major oz:
Indeed -- so he
gave Gill a lot of attention. Especially to her .....ahem..... outlook(s)
AGplusone:
But ... and they
still served Jubal and guests coffee. Why is that?
NuclearWasteUSN:
How
clueless could she really have been? Dating a nationally syndicated writer....
Major oz:
Thass what they
were hired for.
AGplusone:
floor supervisor
Bookman99R:
among others, Jim
Motherthing2002:
she did seem to expect 'deus ex machina' quite a
lot
Major oz:
They were his
three moms
Bookman99R:
"Her hobby was men..."
Major oz:
......or daughters
Motherthing2002:
men can be a very limited hobby...
Motherthing2002:
just like women are a limited motivation
Major oz:
Oh, my dear; you
need to get out more\
AGplusone:
Newitz would
probably say "limiting" ...
Motherthing2002:
I agree, David
Major oz:
Rusty..........get
her out there
Bookman99R:
<shrug> in this case, I think it's safe to say that Ben
was not the only man that she dated
AGplusone:
[I think she looks
cute in her three-piece suits. I had one like she wears when I was about
thirty.]
Bookman99R:
out where?
Major oz:
Q: are you two
multiplexing on one line?
Motherthing2002:
but she did tend to treat all men as one of three
types: daddy, savior, or lover
Bookman99R:
yup
NuclearWasteUSN:
DOn't
forget patient
Major oz):
.........there
Motherthing2002:
but patients aren't *men*, they're patients
Bookman99R:
got a networking thingy, now
Major oz:
ah, so
AGplusone:
It's a world, as
Heinlein often pointed out, of short-haired women and long-haired men.
Motherthing2002:
good grief! Am I the ONLY female here????
aggirlj has entered
the chat room.
Bookman99R:
ATM, yes
NuclearWasteUSN:
Millie is
reading over my shoulder
Major oz:
But does Gill
"mature" as the story develops, or does she just follow those she respects/loves
without understanding.
aggirlj:
howdy
Major oz:
?
AGplusone:
Naw, Jane showed
up in the nick of time.
Bookman99R:
ok, now 2
NuclearWasteUSN:
Want her to
call you on the phone so you do not feel lonely?
Motherthing2002:
hi Jane
Motherthing2002:
me?
aggirlj:
Hi, was working on
THS stuff
NuclearWasteUSN:
Hello
morganuci:
A likely story
Major oz:
Jane, cash my
check so I can balance my books.
Bookman99R:
we're on Gillian, Jane
Motherthing2002:
I can't type and talk on the phone at the same time
aggirlj:
can someone send
me what has gone before?
Motherthing2002:
besides, I think PeeWee has it...
Bookman99R:
I think Jill does mature, although it's subtle
AGplusone:
Well, there's the
opening up of her sexuality in the scene in Vegas when Mike lets her mind-meld
with her male audience ... that could be maturing, although for a woman whose
hobby is men, I sometimes wonder.
aggirlj:
[Oz, Davey is the
one to pummel on that one]
Motherthing2002:
I think that was less maturation and more epiphany
morganuci:
Not all characters need to mature. I don't think we
should judge one as bad (or whatever) just because she doesn't.
Bookman99R:
you might be right about 'epiphany'
AGplusone:
There's a lot
epiphany in SiaSL. Mike liking the way the cobras think, it's reminds him of
home and Martians, and enjoying the cat's mind.
Motherthing2002:
I don't think Jill was a bad one at all
Bookman99R:
I read the blog of a gal who took heavy doeses of
testosterone, to get an idea of what a man's sex drive was like
Major oz:
It doesn't seem to
me that she ever becomes her "own person". She is always (figuratively) looking
up to Mike, Ben, or Jubal whenever she does anything, as if she is asking: "Is
this OK?"
Bookman99R:
a point there, Oz
aggirlj:
brb, gots to get a
drink
AGplusone:
Well, about the
time of the cruxafiction scenes she does seem, along with Dawn, to have matured.
Motherthing2002:
some people require that kind of support, doesn't
make them bad or anything
AGplusone:
wish I could spell
Bookman99R:
OTOH, she became essentially C-High Priestess to a god on
earth
Major oz:
Not bad, just
never independent.
AGplusone:
god who's leaving
shortly
Major oz:
?
aggirlj:
b
AGplusone:
Rather like Simon
called Peter
Bookman99R:
but in the same sense, Ben loses his ndependence
Motherthing2002:
High Priestess doesn't have to be an independent
entity
AGplusone:
About to have to
stop denying she knows the man
AGplusone:
I think there's
some substantial change in her self-assurance by that time.
Major oz:
I don't think
anyone HAS to be such and such. Just saying that she stays in her niche (rut)
all through the book.
Bookman99R:
as a matter of fact, up to the "crucifixion" scene, the
only independent ones are Jubal & Mike, the way I see it
AGplusone:
Maybe she's
intended to be a baseline.
Bookman99R:
possibly
Motherthing2002:
But that run can be nice and warm and cozy and all
manner of interesting things can float by....
Major oz:
The three fronts
are independent to a fault.
Bookman99R:
she';s certainly cast as the "Innocent"
Bookman99R:
much more so than Mike
Major oz:
Memory
fades.......were the Fronts in the nest?
Motherthing2002:
I would say Dawn moreso than Jill
NuclearWasteUSN:
Written in
the late 50s and ealy in 60, isn't a truly independent woman a bit much to
expect in any event?
AGplusone:
She teaches him
how to laugh but he teaches her
Martian
Major oz:
Not in a RAH book
Motherthing2002:
I would think so
aggirlj:
Bettter believe
there were independent women then, they just hid it.
morganuci:
Yes, the fronts were "first called". They got Martian
training catch-as-catch-can, while still working at Jubal's.
NuclearWasteUSN:
I don't
know, Major, seems to me that she is par for the course to that date
AGplusone:
The three fronts
are in the nest, but not always physically present until Jubal is brought in.
Somebody stays home to take care of the old man.
Bookman99R:
OTOH, President Joe's wife, was she independent?
Motherthing2002:
more of a "power behind the throne" and that can be
a very dependent position
Major oz:
In a brainless
sort of rich-bitch way
morganuci:
So what's the problem with getting coffee? Other women in
the nest do it too (Ruth, for instance). But, Tony is the main cook, and Mike
"proudly burned toast" at one time.
AGplusone:
"Agnes" Douglas?
Alice Douglas was a hired outside contractor ... sent to be a goad for someone's
purpose ... whomever was in charge.
Bookman99R:
ultimately so, as was revealed in the end - on that count,
even Mike was on a mission
aggirlj:
RAH was not
exposed to the Genteel Southern Belle in his life or if he was then he KNEW
AGplusone:
Always wondered
what it was that Digby and the rest were doing up there ...
Major oz:
The nest had
classes of folks, but it was not coincident with sex. It was more a "rank"
thing.
Bookman99R:
with grokking, went rank, though
Major oz:
....perZackly....
AGplusone:
A lot like
Foster's power elite described earlier.
Major oz:
So the non-grokers
"got the coffee"
Bookman99R:
true, but Foster's purposes were different
AGplusone:
Yeah, and enjoyed
the loose sex while they studied Martian learning how to grok.
Bookman99R:
he went for Power, and the trappings thereof
AGplusone:
Were they?
Major oz:
.......sounds good
to me
AGplusone:
Howso?
Bookman99R:
Foster was assassinated, IIRC
Motherthing2002:
by Digby
Major oz:
Wasn't that Digby
Bookman99R:
Mike sacrificed himself
AGplusone:
Mike supposedly is
setting up an organization to carry on after he 'dies for our sins'
Major oz:
.........sorry --
disragard
AGplusone:
That was the role
that Jill and Dawn were setting up for.
AGplusone:
Jubal is just the
Evangelist
Bookman99R:
dunno about that
AGplusone:
Jill and Dawn are
Peter and Paul
Major oz:
Interesting..
Mike is to JC as Jubal is to Paul
Bookman99R:
wasn't Jubal more of the "John the Baptist"?
NuclearWasteUSN:
I think I
see Oz's idea
Bookman99R:
although he wasn't "preparing the way"
Major oz:
And a few hunderd
years later, Dawn, Jill and the others would have been labeled prostitutes.
AGplusone:
No, I don't think
so. I think Jubal is Matthew/Mark/Luke and maybe John the weird.
NuclearWasteUSN:
scales
falling from Jubal's eyes after the crucifixion and all
leetheflirt has
entered the chat room.
leetheflirt has
left the chat room.
Major oz:
Naw, David, thass
Ben's job
aggirlj:
nevermind
AGplusone:
Caxton is maybe
the publisher, like the printer Caxton in the 15th Century, who published
Mallory et al.
AGplusone:
Jubal will start
by planting some ghost written columns in Caxton's syndicated column.
Major oz:
I think a novel
about speculating on the "church" as it went on through the centuries would give
a great opportunity for fun and games.
AGplusone:
<g>
Bookman99R:
at a guess, Caxton's the Propagandist, whether in his own
name or unnder a pseudonym
AGplusone:
Had to be a reason
why Heinlein gave him that name. Caxton is too unusual to be a coincidence.
Bookman99R (6:50:17
PM): possibly
Bookman99R (6:50:35
PM): but this has drifted, hasn't it?
NuclearWasteUSN
(6:50:43 PM):
I have company, I must run, sorry guys
NuclearWasteUSN has
left the chat room.
Motherthing2002
(6:50:49 PM): and 'ben' being 'son of'?
Major oz (6:50:55
PM): And
then there would have been Duke's appocalypse
AGplusone (6:51:04
PM): yep,
or at least that's my theory
Major oz (6:51:48
PM): c ya,
jim
morganuci (6:51:49
PM): For those who missed discussion about it, the
recent LA Times article about Heinlein said
AGplusone (6:52:19
PM): By
labeled prostitutes, do you mean holy temple prostitutes, Oz?
Bookman99R (6:52:50
PM): I thik he meant re-cast as prostitutes, as per
Mary Magdelene
morganuci (6:52:58
PM): Even "Stranger," with its countercultural
following and endless debates about alternative sexuality -- it's one of several
of his books to dramatize group marriages --
Major oz (6:53:09
PM): No, I
mean in the sense that Nicea labeled Mary Magdeline a prostitute because woman
COULD NOT have a place in the church
morganuci (6:53:24
PM): enrages feminists these days. "It's like the
sexist model of hippie life," said Newitz. " 'We're all liberated, but the women
still get the coffee.' "
Bookman99R (6:53:29
PM): well, not a place of Authority
AGplusone (6:53:49
PM): Ah,
written out of the hierarchy per the split between the Orthodox and the
Gnostics.
Major oz (6:54:01
PM): ja,
wohl
aggirlj (6:54:02
PM): And I
lean towards the hypothesis of Mary have a lot more power than they give her
credit for
aggirlj (6:54:11
PM): having
Motherthing2002
(6:54:18 PM): what if I *want* to get the coffee
because the way you make it is gross?
AGplusone (6:54:24
PM): Or Dan
Simmons' Grail.
Bookman99R (6:54:25
PM): History channel's done a couple on that, Jane
aggirlj (6:54:42
PM): Along
with the DaVinci Code
AGplusone (6:54:45
PM): Not
Simmons, whatzisname.
Bookman99R (6:54:47
PM): non-relevant, MT
Motherthing2002
(6:54:54 PM): So did Natl geo channel
Motherthing2002
(6:55:07 PM): Brown?
Bookman99R (6:55:19
PM): yeah, the "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" thing
Major oz (6:55:21
PM): MT,
those of us in the inside would understand that. Outsiders, including the yahoo
from LAT haven't the ability
Motherthing2002
(6:55:28 PM): what about that is non-relevant
AGplusone (6:55:33
PM): Yes,
Brown if that's the name. The one who wrote DaVinci Code.
Bookman99R (6:55:56
PM): because the LA Times bit was discussing
'roles'
Bookman99R (6:56:19
PM): it was a NOW-leaning article
Motherthing2002
(6:56:32 PM): but I don't have to not do something
just because it previously would have been my 'role'
Major oz (6:56:42
PM): Then
there is the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gnostic Gospels, some of the Coptic texts,
etc all pointing to MM as more than the RCC is / was willing to admit.
AGplusone (6:56:51
PM): I
think not-so Newitz is hung up in the 1960-70s thing over getting coffee is
demeaning.
Bookman99R (6:57:08
PM): When Mike transitioned from child to adult,
all four women sub-ordinated themselves to him
aggirlj (6:57:23
PM): Ya
know, it's not really THAT important to me, getting coffee
Major oz (6:57:26
PM): AS a
man or as a demi-god?
Motherthing2002
(6:57:28 PM): Remember, when they ousted MM, the
men in the church were starting to be afraid of women with power
AGplusone (6:57:36
PM): But so
did Larry and Duke, and Jubal would if Mike would let him.
Bookman99R (6:57:49
PM): yup
AGplusone (6:58:02
PM):
Instead Mike keeps reminding Jubal he's the Father
Motherthing2002
(6:58:15 PM): It came too close to the pagan Mother
Goddess for comfort
Bookman99R (6:58:27
PM): but in the sort of "logic" the writer used,
the behavior of men can't be a factor in the discussion
Major oz (6:58:36
PM): And
the way it is written, "father" sounds like a cathedral organ.
AGplusone (6:59:09
PM): As in
Father why cannot this cup be taken from me?
Major oz (6:59:18
PM): And,
MT, it was soon after that that the church began hunting witches.
Major oz (6:59:31
PM):
indeed, David
Motherthing2002
(6:59:42 PM): yep, gotta keep those EEEEvil women
down, donchano
Major oz (6:59:58
PM):
barefoot and PG
aggirlj (7:00:01
PM): Be
afraid, be very afraid.
Major oz (7:00:05
PM): like
here in the Ozarks
AGplusone (7:00:23
PM): So
Newitz's critique makes no sense in context of what is set up in story. Dawn and
Jill are left in charge.
Motherthing2002
(7:00:24 PM): pregnancy is a very vulnerable time
in a woman's life
AGplusone (7:00:36
PM): Jubal
is just the Press Secretary.
Motherthing2002
(7:00:39 PM): yep
Major oz (7:00:52
PM):
...which is why H makes such a point of saying so in many of his works.
AGplusone (7:01:50
PM): And
Abigail Zenobia and the other kid, the boy, are the future left behind by Mike.
morganuci (7:02:17
PM): What are the meanings of Abigail and Zenobia?
AGplusone (7:02:21
PM):
Abigail Zenobia is an interesting name. Alfa Omega ...
Major oz (7:02:22
PM): Back
to Jill. I don't think I would have given her much time at a cocktail party.
Not disagreeable, just nothing attractive.
Motherthing2002
(7:02:34 PM): my mom once asked what they used to
do for women like me(dangerous labor and delivery), I told her "They died!"
AGplusone (7:02:46
PM):
Abigail can mean a maid, but Zenobia is the Queen of Palmyra.
Bookman99R (7:03:02
PM): Maiden Queen?
Motherthing2002
(7:03:08 PM): Yes, and A and Z complete the cycle
AGplusone (7:03:11
PM): Who
challenged Rome and supported the Gnostics against the Orthodox.
AGplusone (7:03:21
PM): No,
she was the widow who took over.
AGplusone (7:04:21
PM): The
Romans finally captured her, and she died "accidently" on her way to Rome.
Bookman99R (7:04:46
PM): I meant in the sense of Abigail Zenobia being
the "Virgin Mother", the Beared of the Son, sorta thing
AGplusone (7:04:47
PM): And
the Orthodox took over the church.
AGplusone (7:05:39
PM): Jill
is steadfast, Oz. I might find that attractive.
Major oz (7:06:02
PM): But
steadfast takes time to recognize.
Major oz (7:06:16
PM): I
wouldn't hang around long enought to see it.
AGplusone (7:06:25
PM): Jubal
figured it out quickly, but Jubal was perceptive.
Bookman99R (7:06:49
PM): well, Jill wasn't the kind of stupid who
preezes in a crisis, at any rate
aggirlj (7:06:51
PM): There
are many colors to steadfast. sometimes misinterpreted in a negative sense
Bookman99R (7:07:19
PM): "freezes"
Major oz (7:07:45
PM): Now
Patty would have interested me from the get-go. Mayhap because my mentor was
very much like her.
morganuci (7:08:03
PM): Tatoos?
Major oz (7:08:07
PM): Nay
AGplusone (7:08:08
PM): Jubal
was drawn to strong steady women, frex Anne, who otherwise strikes me as cold.
Bookman99R (7:08:09
PM): flexible
Bookman99R (7:08:27
PM): accepting of people as they are, without
judgement
AGplusone (7:08:44
PM): Note
Anne is modeled on the head secretary that Erle Stanley Gardner married once his
first wife died.
Major oz (7:09:02
PM): My
mentor was about 18 yrs older than me. A cantankerous, obese, brilliant, horny
old woman.
AGplusone (7:09:10
PM): And
then, there's Heinlein and Ginny.... maybe a same sort of relationship.
aggirlj (7:09:19
PM): :-D
Motherthing2002
(7:09:43 PM): a girl after my own heart, Oz
AGplusone (7:09:45
PM): Bertha
Cool and Donald Lam.
Bookman99R (7:09:54
PM): well, I dunno Patty was 'cantankerour'
Major oz (7:10:25
PM): She
kicked my butt, and drove me like a mule, convincing me to do things
academically I had no clue I could do.
AGplusone (7:10:26
PM): (the
Cool and Lam pair are ESG's second most famous set of characters).
aggirlj (7:10:39
PM): So how
old were you? Old women are relaive
aggirlj (7:10:43
PM):
relative
Major oz (7:11:44
PM): I was
20 and she was indeterminate.........late 30's or so. My great close friend
till she died in '99
Bookman99R (7:12:01
PM): PeeWee couldn't make it
aggirlj (7:12:05
PM): Really
ancient
Bookman99R (7:12:09
PM): so I'm sending her off to bed
Bookman99R (7:12:26
PM): I dunno
AGplusone (7:12:32
PM): Does
everyone know that the Jubal household in the Pocomos was modeled deliberately
by Heinlein on ESG's household in Temecula, California, from which he wrote most
of his stories?
Motherthing2002
(7:12:38 PM): I must really be decrepit to those
20-somethings I go to class with
Bookman99R (7:12:46
PM): I had a 'fling' with a woman in her 40s when i
was in my early 20s
Motherthing2002
(7:12:55 PM): I didn't know that
aggirlj (7:13:01
PM): You
were blessed
morganuci (7:13:07
PM): I thought it was Palm Springs?
Bookman99R (7:13:27
PM): do I need to write my autobiography, m'dear?
Bookman99R (7:13:28
PM): lol
Major oz (7:13:28
PM): She
was physically repugnant, but I loved her familialy as no one else.
Motherthing2002
(7:13:35 PM): I had to marry a man 13 years younger
than the first one to find one mature enough for me
AGplusone (7:13:40
PM):
Gardner had a group of secretaries who rotated and who typed up his stories.
Temecula is close to Palm Springs.
Bookman99R (7:13:47
PM): flatterer
aggirlj (7:14:04
PM): Young
are maleable
Motherthing2002
(7:14:14 PM): :-*
AGplusone (7:14:21
PM): And
with whom he lived around a pool, etc. The Morango Indians (the ones who have
the casinos) have the estate now.
Major oz (7:14:30
PM): ...get
a room...........
Bookman99R (7:14:39
PM): you were luckier than I, Oz - mine fell apart,
although not in a disasterous fashion
Motherthing2002
(7:14:45 PM): we already did
Major oz (7:15:07
PM): Never
physical, but always spiritual.
morganuci (7:15:08
PM): OK, that's Temecula then.
Bookman99R (7:15:12
PM): although you probably had a higher-quality one
to start with
Major oz (7:15:29
PM): My
wife couldn't stand her, as she saw right through my wife.
Bookman99R (7:15:36
PM): heh
Major oz (7:15:40
PM):
.....took me 24 years
Bookman99R (7:16:21
PM): takes a long time to see things we don't want
to see
Major oz (7:16:33
PM):
drink............brb
Motherthing2002
(7:17:25 PM): uh oh, we're going into reminisce
mode! Is SIaSL the only topic book or are we looking at other female
characters?
morganuci (7:17:45
PM): Others too. If we're ready, let's move to
another book/character.
AGplusone (7:17:49
PM): [MT:
there's a PBS series called California's Gold in which the fellow who does the
thing goes to the estate in Temecula and interviews Gardner's one surviving
secretary about it. You can order the episode from PBS.]
aggirlj (7:17:53
PM): God
question, I'm curious too.
Bookman99R (7:18:02
PM): anyhoo, I think with SIASL, the problem curent
Feminists have, as that the visible Authority Figures were all male
aggirlj (7:18:04
PM): Good
Motherthing2002
(7:18:25 PM): Thanks David, I'll take look
morganuci (7:18:30
PM): Well, I haven't heard of feminists complaining
that Jesus was a man. But maybe they have?
AGplusone (7:18:54
PM): Huell
Howser is the narrator. He's been doing it about 20 years or so now.
Bookman99R (7:19:19
PM): I suspect that some do, but no experience with
it - they probably bail to some neo-pagan group, so they can worship a Goddess
morganuci (7:19:25
PM): I've seen CA Gold, but not that episode,
unless I didn't realize what it was. I'll look for it. Thx.
aggirlj (7:19:28
PM): There
are some that think God is/should be a woman.
aggirlj (7:19:56
PM): With a
fabulous sense of humor.
morganuci (7:20:14
PM): Moses, Krisna, Buddah, Mohammed, Jesus,
Abraham---all the biggies were men, at least until relatively recently.
Bookman99R (7:20:17
PM): well, life's a joke, anyway ;-)
AGplusone (7:20:27
PM): [The
Morangos seem disposed to preserve the estate as a museum.]
Bookman99R (7:20:35
PM): a practical joke, and a dirty one, at that
aggirlj (7:21:15
PM): agreed
Bookman99R (7:21:21
PM): but I second the call to move texts
LV Poker Player has
left the chat room.
Bookman99R (7:21:31
PM): hummm
Motherthing2002
(7:21:36 PM): there was a joke a few years(decades)
ago, A man wanted to come back and describe God, so he pulled a "Flatliners".
When he was revived he said "God is black, and boy is she p!ssed!"
Major oz (7:21:46
PM): The
FSM is both sexes, isn't he/she, Rusty?
aggirlj (7:22:05
PM): lol
AGplusone (7:22:07
PM): WE
could take about authority figure Hartley Baldwin in Friday ....
Bookman99R (7:22:10
PM): what books place women in equal/superior roles
with men
AGplusone (7:22:15
PM): after
a five minute break maybe.
aggirlj (7:22:22
PM): k
morganuci (7:22:47
PM): OK, back at 7:28.
Bookman99R (7:22:51
PM): FSM is non-gender-specific, but the generic
male terminaology is used to refer to Him
Major oz (7:23:03
PM): hokay
Bookman99R (7:23:06
PM): OTOH, FSM _does_ have "balls"
Bookman99R (7:23:07
PM): lol
Major oz (7:24:06
PM): I am
getting a lot of mileage out of my ID t-shirt. The one made for me at the
Centennial Conf.
AGplusone (7:24:09
PM): Well,
MT, there is the female black president written by Heinlein (modeled after
Uhura) in the end story in Expanded Universe.
Bookman99R (7:24:38
PM): whether they be testes or ovaries is one of
the Great Mysteries, and as such is not to be examined
Motherthing2002
(7:24:39 PM): I liked that reference!
Bookman99R (7:24:59
PM): yep, that was a good one
Motherthing2002
(7:25:23 PM): I was a Trekkie long before I knew
about RAH
Bookman99R (7:25:58
PM): OTOH, they sent Uhura up pretty good in
"Galaxy Quest"
AGplusone (7:26:06
PM): "Over
the Rainbow" which begins at page 456 in the hardbound.
Motherthing2002
(7:26:22 PM): "Dammit, I only have one job on this
ship..."
Bookman99R (7:26:28
PM): yup
Motherthing2002
(7:27:05 PM): Sigourney Weaver was a good choice
for that one, as well
Bookman99R (7:27:12
PM): Spider made the comment that they took the
Token Femal, and the Token Black, and made her a switchboard operator
Motherthing2002
(7:27:40 PM): yes, but she was on the bridge, in
the chain of command
Bookman99R (7:27:42
PM): so for '60s gender roles, RAH is hardly alone
Bookman99R (7:27:50
PM): true
morganuci (7:28:00
PM): And Kirk still had a female to get him coffee
aggirlj (7:28:23
PM): Oh,
Geeze, he had Majel Roddenberry to nurse him to health.
morganuci (7:28:24
PM): Not to mention that it's a decade past when
the bulk of Stranger was written
Bookman99R (7:28:35
PM): a lot of what criticisms are made against RAH
blatantly indulge in "presentism"
Motherthing2002
(7:28:38 PM): "oh cabin boy, oh cabin boy..."
Bookman99R (7:29:00
PM): where is that plucky little nipper?
Motherthing2002
(7:29:11 PM): of course they do, they wouldn't have
much to say if they weren't using 'presentism'...
AGplusone (7:29:15
PM): The
cabin boy is hiding in the barrel of apples listening to my namesake plot the
mutiny.
Bookman99R (7:29:27
PM): lol
Major oz (7:29:31
PM): And
SW's costume getting inch-by-inch eaten away in the final scene. Great sarcasm.
Bookman99R (7:30:17
PM): So, what about "Let there be Light"?
Bookman99R (7:30:27
PM): brb
morganuci (7:30:39
PM): Sure, ask a question and then leave!
Motherthing2002
(7:30:59 PM): "potty emergency! Potty emergency!
Motherthing2002
(7:31:13 PM): aka Wakko Warner
morganuci (7:31:19
PM): I was thinking about Delilah and the Space
Rigger.
Motherthing2002
(7:31:48 PM): I did like Brooksie
Bookman99R (7:32:10
PM): yeah
morganuci (7:32:20
PM): Which
of us wrote the Wikipedia article about it :-)? "is arguably one of the best
feminist works of fiction ever written by a male author"
Major oz (7:32:38
PM): ?
Bookman99R (7:32:39
PM): she wasn't in command, but she stood her
ground, in the face of fairly blatant sexism, didn't she?
aggirlj (7:32:53
PM): Yeah,
which one Tim?
Motherthing2002
(7:33:07 PM): and without becoming a 'screaming
meemee' about it
AGplusone (7:33:11
PM): Funny
thing: M.L. Lord claims she loved the juveniles, and took her use for initials
from them. Yet, there's on initialled names in the juveniles. Instead, it's Let
There Be Light and Delilah and the Space Rigger, both adultstories
AGplusone (7:33:43
PM): in
which initials are used, and stories written in the 193--40s, when women did
have to use initials.
AGplusone (7:34:00
PM): "on" =
"no"
morganuci (7:34:24
PM): Well, it wasn't me! But I have to say,
*1949*.
Bookman99R (7:34:26
PM): minor slip-up on her part?
Motherthing2002
(7:34:42 PM): TMI: I can say that RAH had a big
effect on my sexuality even before I knew what boys were really for
AGplusone (7:35:04
PM): No, I
think Lord and Newitz are really from an alternate history and reading different
stories.
morganuci (7:35:16
PM): <g>!
Bookman99R (7:35:19
PM): lol
Motherthing2002
(7:35:19 PM): could that have been part of my
'feminist liberation?
Major oz (7:35:23
PM):
"...really for" Now who's sexist? :-)
Bookman99R (7:35:45
PM): well, not "sexyist", but pretty sexy
Bookman99R (7:35:47
PM): ;-)
Motherthing2002
(7:35:48 PM): come on! back then they were walking
testosterone factories
Major oz (7:36:09
PM): who?
Bookman99R (7:36:12
PM): but what effect, MT?
Motherthing2002
(7:36:20 PM): BOYS
Motherthing2002
(7:36:35 PM): You really want specifics public?
Major oz (7:36:36
PM):
OHHHHH, I see...........:-)
aggirlj (7:36:39
PM): Well
now there's a qualifier
Bookman99R (7:36:42
PM): what, he taught you what boys were for?
Bookman99R (7:36:53
PM): <shuts up>
Motherthing2002
(7:36:54 PM): nope, how to deal with them
Bookman99R (7:37:00
PM): although it's probably too late
Major oz (7:37:01
PM): good
idea, R
Motherthing2002
(7:37:35 PM): essentially I realized that I had to
use my brain first before I used my body
Bookman99R (7:37:41
PM): yeah, i know what you did to all the 4-legged
boys in this house
aggirlj (7:37:53
PM): ?
Motherthing2002
(7:37:59 PM): poor guys, and now they love me...
Bookman99R (7:38:00
PM): no wonder I sleep lightly
Bookman99R (7:38:11
PM): cats, Jane
aggirlj (7:38:18
PM): okay
aggirlj (7:38:30
PM): I
could see three
Motherthing2002
(7:38:51 PM):
