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Heinlein Readers Group Discussion
Thursday 01/10/2008 9:00 P.M. EST
Heinlein's Women

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Here begins the Discussion


morganuci: To begin, there's Gilliam Boardman, "a little girl who was about to go charging out and maybe get herself killed ...all guts and gallantry but too ignorant to be allowed to monkey was sucha buzz saw; ..."

morganuci: Which character said that, David?

AGplusone: A question you posed was "is there any development" of female characters, and I wondered about the three fronts in particular ... that ties into the 'still serves coffee' thing Not very new wits posted. Jubal said that.

morganuci: Well, Jubal's the voice of God, so it must be correct :-)

AGplusone: To Ben shortly after he gets freed from wherever the SS had him, and is drying out.

AGplusone: Explaining why Jubal got involved.

AGplusone: So it's an excuse to justify Jubal's doing what he did.

morganuci: Well, I think he's right that she's ignorant of politics.  She says so herself earlier on.

AGplusone: and maybe untrue

morganuci: You don't think she'd get herself into the same trouble Ben was in, or worse?

morganuci: Ignorant != stupid, of course. (!= means does not equal in programmer speak)

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AGplusone: I think it's likely she would, but whether it's Jubal's real reason is another question.

Bookman99R: well, she wasn't equipped to play 007

 NuclearWasteUSN has entered the chat room.

Bookman99R: hi, milady

Bookman99R: hi, Nuke

AGplusone: Jubal may just be looking for an excuse to tilt windmills, i.e., bored with sitting around the pool in the Pocomos.

NuclearWasteUSN: Call me that again and I will not be pleased

Motherthing2002: hello there, honey

Bookman99R: lol

AGplusone: Jim works.

morganuci: OK, we're talking about the women, not Jubal's motivations (unless they're women).  I think Jubal did need some action to get his blood circulating again.

Bookman99R: anyway, the current one is Gillian Boardman

Motherthing2002: what men have any motivation other than women?

Bookman99R: gay ones?

morganuci: Power?

Motherthing2002: poor fellas

NuclearWasteUSN: Thank you MT I was afraid to point out the obvious

Motherthing2002: with power comes women

AGplusone: Even if you're too old to have the "gallant reflex" as Jubal thinks he is?

Motherthing2002: yep

Motherthing2002: with money comes women

Major oz: Jubal may have been somewhat infatuated by a woman who was niave.

Bookman99R: some women do hear the call to Power, and same with men

AGplusone: So sophisticated about medical care--what nurse isn't--but idealistic about life.

Motherthing2002: I can see that, Jill was niave but his secretaries were decidedly worldly

Bookman99R: well, RAH was fond of casting his charachters in classic roles, now & then

Major oz: Indeed -- so he gave Gill a lot of attention.  Especially to her .....ahem..... outlook(s)

AGplusone: But ... and they still served Jubal and guests coffee. Why is that?

NuclearWasteUSN: How clueless could she really have been?  Dating a nationally syndicated writer....

Major oz: Thass what they were hired for.

AGplusone: floor supervisor

Bookman99R: among others, Jim

Motherthing2002: she did seem to expect 'deus ex machina' quite a lot

Major oz: They were his three moms

Bookman99R: "Her hobby was men..."

Major oz: ......or daughters

Motherthing2002: men can be a very limited hobby...

Motherthing2002: just like women are a limited motivation

Major oz: Oh, my dear; you need to get out more\

AGplusone: Newitz would probably say "limiting" ...

Motherthing2002: I agree, David

Major oz: Rusty..........get her out there

Bookman99R: <shrug> in this case, I think it's safe to say that Ben was not the only man that she dated

AGplusone: [I think she looks cute in her three-piece suits. I had one like she wears when I was about thirty.]

Bookman99R: out where?

Major oz: Q:  are you two multiplexing on one line?

Motherthing2002: but she did tend to treat all men as one of three types:  daddy, savior, or lover

Bookman99R: yup

NuclearWasteUSN: DOn't forget patient

Major oz): .........there

Motherthing2002: but patients aren't *men*, they're patients

Bookman99R: got a networking thingy, now

Major oz: ah, so

AGplusone: It's a world, as Heinlein often pointed out, of short-haired women and long-haired men.

Motherthing2002: good grief!  Am I the ONLY female here????

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Bookman99R: ATM, yes

NuclearWasteUSN: Millie is reading over my shoulder

Major oz: But does Gill "mature" as the story develops, or does she just follow those she respects/loves without understanding.

aggirlj: howdy

Major oz: ?

AGplusone: Naw, Jane showed up in the nick of time.

Bookman99R: ok, now 2

NuclearWasteUSN: Want her to call you on the phone so you do not feel lonely?

Motherthing2002: hi Jane

Motherthing2002: me?

aggirlj: Hi, was working on THS stuff

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello

morganuci: A likely story

Major oz: Jane, cash my check so I can balance my books.

Bookman99R: we're on Gillian, Jane

Motherthing2002: I can't type and talk on the phone at the same time

aggirlj: can someone send me what has gone before?

Motherthing2002: besides, I think PeeWee has it...

Bookman99R: I think Jill does mature, although it's subtle

AGplusone: Well, there's the opening up of her sexuality in the scene in Vegas when Mike lets her mind-meld with her male audience ... that could be maturing, although for a woman whose hobby is men, I sometimes wonder.

aggirlj: [Oz, Davey is the one to pummel on that one]

Motherthing2002: I think that was less maturation and more epiphany

morganuci: Not all characters need to mature.  I don't think we should judge one as bad (or whatever) just because she doesn't.

Bookman99R: you might be right about 'epiphany'

AGplusone: There's a lot epiphany in SiaSL. Mike liking the way the cobras think, it's reminds him of home and Martians, and enjoying the cat's mind.

Motherthing2002: I don't think Jill was a bad one at all

Bookman99R: I read the blog of a gal who took heavy doeses of testosterone, to get an idea of what a man's sex drive was like

Major oz: It doesn't seem to me that she ever becomes her "own person".  She is always (figuratively) looking up to Mike, Ben, or Jubal whenever she does anything, as if she is asking: "Is this OK?"

Bookman99R: a point there, Oz

aggirlj: brb, gots to get a drink

AGplusone: Well, about the time of the cruxafiction scenes she does seem, along with Dawn, to have matured.

Motherthing2002: some people require that kind of support, doesn't make them bad or anything

AGplusone: wish I could spell

Bookman99R: OTOH, she became essentially C-High Priestess to a god on earth

Major oz: Not bad, just never independent.

AGplusone: god who's leaving shortly

Major oz: ?

aggirlj: b

AGplusone: Rather like Simon called Peter

Bookman99R: but in the same sense, Ben loses his ndependence

Motherthing2002: High Priestess doesn't have to be an independent entity

AGplusone: About to have to stop denying she knows the man

AGplusone: I think there's some substantial change in her self-assurance by that time.

Major oz: I don't think anyone HAS to be such and such.  Just saying that she stays in her niche (rut) all through the book.

Bookman99R: as a matter of fact, up to the "crucifixion" scene, the only independent ones are Jubal & Mike, the way I see it

AGplusone: Maybe she's intended to be a baseline.

Bookman99R: possibly

Motherthing2002: But that run can be nice and warm and cozy and all manner of interesting things can float by....

Major oz: The three fronts are independent to a fault.

Bookman99R: she';s certainly cast as the "Innocent"

Bookman99R: much more so than Mike

Major oz: Memory fades.......were the Fronts in the nest?

Motherthing2002: I would say Dawn moreso than Jill

NuclearWasteUSN: Written in the late 50s and ealy in 60, isn't a truly independent woman a bit much to expect in any event?

AGplusone: She teaches him how to laugh but he teaches her Martian

Major oz: Not in a RAH book

Motherthing2002: I would think so

aggirlj: Bettter believe there were independent women then, they just hid it.

morganuci: Yes, the fronts were "first called".  They got Martian training catch-as-catch-can, while still working at Jubal's.

NuclearWasteUSN: I don't know, Major, seems to me that she is par for the course to that date

AGplusone: The three fronts are in the nest, but not always physically present until Jubal is brought in. Somebody stays home to take care of the old man.

Bookman99R: OTOH, President Joe's wife, was she independent?

Motherthing2002: more of a "power behind the throne" and that can be a very dependent position

Major oz: In a brainless sort of rich-bitch way

morganuci: So what's the problem with getting coffee?  Other women in the nest do it too (Ruth, for instance).  But, Tony is the main cook, and Mike "proudly burned toast" at one time.

AGplusone: "Agnes" Douglas? Alice Douglas was a hired outside contractor ... sent to be a goad for someone's purpose ... whomever was in charge.

Bookman99R: ultimately so, as was revealed in the end - on that count, even Mike was on a mission

aggirlj: RAH was not exposed to the Genteel Southern Belle in his life or if he was then he KNEW

AGplusone: Always wondered what it was that Digby and the rest were doing up there ...

Major oz: The nest had classes of folks, but it was not coincident with sex.  It was more a "rank" thing.

Bookman99R: with grokking, went rank, though

Major oz: ....perZackly....

AGplusone: A lot like Foster's power elite described earlier.

Major oz: So the non-grokers "got the coffee"

Bookman99R: true, but Foster's purposes were different

AGplusone: Yeah, and enjoyed the loose sex while they studied Martian learning how to grok.

Bookman99R: he went for Power, and the trappings thereof

AGplusone: Were they?

Major oz: .......sounds good to me

AGplusone: Howso?

Bookman99R: Foster was assassinated, IIRC

Motherthing2002: by Digby

Major oz: Wasn't that Digby

Bookman99R: Mike sacrificed himself

AGplusone: Mike supposedly is setting up an organization to carry on after he 'dies for our sins'

Major oz: .........sorry -- disragard

AGplusone: That was the role that Jill and Dawn were setting up for.

AGplusone: Jubal is just the Evangelist

Bookman99R: dunno about that

AGplusone: Jill and Dawn are Peter and Paul

Major oz: Interesting..  Mike is to JC as Jubal is to Paul

Bookman99R: wasn't Jubal more of the "John the Baptist"?

NuclearWasteUSN: I think I see Oz's idea

Bookman99R: although he wasn't "preparing the way"

Major oz: And a few hunderd years later, Dawn, Jill and the others would have been labeled prostitutes.

AGplusone: No, I don't think so. I think Jubal is Matthew/Mark/Luke and maybe John the weird.

NuclearWasteUSN: scales falling from Jubal's eyes after the crucifixion and all

 leetheflirt has entered the chat room.

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Major oz: Naw, David, thass Ben's job

aggirlj: nevermind

AGplusone: Caxton is maybe the publisher, like the printer Caxton in the 15th Century, who published Mallory et al.

AGplusone: Jubal will start by planting some ghost written columns in Caxton's syndicated column.

Major oz: I think a novel about speculating on the "church" as it went on through the centuries would give a great opportunity for fun and games.

AGplusone: <g>

Bookman99R: at a guess, Caxton's the Propagandist, whether in his own name or unnder a pseudonym

AGplusone: Had to be a reason why Heinlein gave him that name. Caxton is too unusual to be a coincidence.

Bookman99R (6:50:17 PM): possibly

Bookman99R (6:50:35 PM): but this has drifted, hasn't it?

NuclearWasteUSN (6:50:43 PM): I have company, I must run, sorry guys

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Motherthing2002 (6:50:49 PM): and 'ben' being 'son of'?

Major oz (6:50:55 PM): And then there would have been Duke's appocalypse

AGplusone (6:51:04 PM): yep, or at least that's my theory

Major oz (6:51:48 PM): c ya, jim

morganuci (6:51:49 PM): For those who missed discussion about it, the recent LA Times article about Heinlein said

AGplusone (6:52:19 PM): By labeled prostitutes, do you mean holy temple prostitutes, Oz?

Bookman99R (6:52:50 PM): I thik he meant re-cast as prostitutes, as per Mary Magdelene

morganuci (6:52:58 PM): Even "Stranger," with its countercultural following and endless debates about alternative sexuality -- it's one of several of his books to dramatize group marriages --

Major oz (6:53:09 PM): No, I mean in the sense that Nicea labeled Mary Magdeline a prostitute because woman COULD NOT have a place in the church

morganuci (6:53:24 PM): enrages feminists these days. "It's like the sexist model of hippie life," said Newitz. " 'We're all liberated, but the women still get the coffee.' "

Bookman99R (6:53:29 PM): well, not a place of Authority

AGplusone (6:53:49 PM): Ah, written out of the hierarchy per the split between the Orthodox and the Gnostics.

Major oz (6:54:01 PM): ja, wohl

aggirlj (6:54:02 PM): And I lean towards the hypothesis of Mary have a lot more power than they give her credit for

aggirlj (6:54:11 PM): having

Motherthing2002 (6:54:18 PM): what if I *want* to get the coffee because the way you make it is gross?

AGplusone (6:54:24 PM): Or Dan Simmons' Grail.

Bookman99R (6:54:25 PM): History channel's done a couple on that, Jane

aggirlj (6:54:42 PM): Along with the DaVinci Code

AGplusone (6:54:45 PM): Not Simmons, whatzisname.

Bookman99R (6:54:47 PM): non-relevant, MT

Motherthing2002 (6:54:54 PM): So did Natl geo channel

Motherthing2002 (6:55:07 PM): Brown?

Bookman99R (6:55:19 PM): yeah, the "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" thing

Major oz (6:55:21 PM): MT, those of us in the inside would understand that.  Outsiders, including the yahoo from LAT haven't the ability

Motherthing2002 (6:55:28 PM): what about that is non-relevant

AGplusone (6:55:33 PM): Yes, Brown if that's the name. The one who wrote DaVinci Code.

Bookman99R (6:55:56 PM): because the LA Times bit was discussing 'roles'

Bookman99R (6:56:19 PM): it was a NOW-leaning article

Motherthing2002 (6:56:32 PM): but I don't have to not do something just because it previously would have been my 'role'

Major oz (6:56:42 PM): Then there is the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gnostic Gospels, some of the Coptic texts, etc  all pointing to MM as more than the RCC is / was willing to admit.

AGplusone (6:56:51 PM): I think not-so Newitz is hung up in the 1960-70s thing over getting coffee is demeaning.

Bookman99R (6:57:08 PM): When Mike transitioned from child to adult, all four women sub-ordinated themselves to him

aggirlj (6:57:23 PM): Ya know, it's not really THAT important to me, getting coffee

Major oz (6:57:26 PM): AS a man or as a demi-god?

Motherthing2002 (6:57:28 PM): Remember, when they ousted MM, the men in the church were starting to be afraid of women with power

AGplusone (6:57:36 PM): But so did Larry and Duke, and Jubal would if Mike would let him.

Bookman99R (6:57:49 PM): yup

AGplusone (6:58:02 PM): Instead Mike keeps reminding Jubal he's the Father

Motherthing2002 (6:58:15 PM): It came too close to the pagan Mother Goddess for comfort

Bookman99R (6:58:27 PM): but in the sort of "logic" the writer used, the behavior of men can't be a factor in the discussion

Major oz (6:58:36 PM): And the way it is written, "father" sounds like a cathedral organ.

AGplusone (6:59:09 PM): As in Father why cannot this cup be taken from me?

Major oz (6:59:18 PM): And, MT, it was soon after that that the church began hunting witches.

Major oz (6:59:31 PM): indeed, David

Motherthing2002 (6:59:42 PM): yep, gotta keep those EEEEvil women down, donchano

Major oz (6:59:58 PM): barefoot and PG

aggirlj (7:00:01 PM): Be afraid, be very afraid. 

Major oz (7:00:05 PM): like here in the Ozarks

AGplusone (7:00:23 PM): So Newitz's critique makes no sense in context of what is set up in story. Dawn and Jill are left in charge.

Motherthing2002 (7:00:24 PM): pregnancy is a very vulnerable time in a woman's life

AGplusone (7:00:36 PM): Jubal is just the Press Secretary.

Motherthing2002 (7:00:39 PM): yep

Major oz (7:00:52 PM): ...which is why H makes such a point of saying so in many of his works.

AGplusone (7:01:50 PM): And Abigail Zenobia and the other kid, the boy, are the future left behind by Mike.

morganuci (7:02:17 PM): What are the meanings of Abigail and Zenobia?

AGplusone (7:02:21 PM): Abigail Zenobia is an interesting name. Alfa Omega ...

Major oz (7:02:22 PM): Back to Jill.  I don't think I would have given her much time at a cocktail party.  Not disagreeable, just nothing attractive.

Motherthing2002 (7:02:34 PM): my mom once asked what they used to do for women like me(dangerous labor and delivery), I told her "They died!"

AGplusone (7:02:46 PM): Abigail can mean a maid, but Zenobia is the Queen of Palmyra.

Bookman99R (7:03:02 PM): Maiden Queen?

Motherthing2002 (7:03:08 PM): Yes, and A and Z complete the cycle

AGplusone (7:03:11 PM): Who challenged Rome and supported the Gnostics against the Orthodox.

AGplusone (7:03:21 PM): No, she was the widow who took over.

AGplusone (7:04:21 PM): The Romans finally captured her, and she died "accidently" on her way to Rome.

Bookman99R (7:04:46 PM): I meant in the sense of Abigail Zenobia being the "Virgin Mother", the Beared of the Son, sorta thing

AGplusone (7:04:47 PM): And the Orthodox took over the church.

AGplusone (7:05:39 PM): Jill is steadfast, Oz. I might find that attractive.

Major oz (7:06:02 PM): But steadfast takes time to recognize.

Major oz (7:06:16 PM): I wouldn't hang around long enought to see it.

AGplusone (7:06:25 PM): Jubal figured it out quickly, but Jubal was perceptive.

Bookman99R (7:06:49 PM): well, Jill wasn't the kind of stupid who preezes in a crisis, at any rate

aggirlj (7:06:51 PM): There are many colors to steadfast.  sometimes misinterpreted in a negative sense

Bookman99R (7:07:19 PM): "freezes"

Major oz (7:07:45 PM): Now Patty would have interested me from the get-go.  Mayhap because my mentor was very much like her.

morganuci (7:08:03 PM): Tatoos?

Major oz (7:08:07 PM): Nay

AGplusone (7:08:08 PM): Jubal was drawn to strong steady women, frex Anne, who otherwise strikes me as cold.

Bookman99R (7:08:09 PM): flexible

Bookman99R (7:08:27 PM): accepting of people as they are, without judgement

AGplusone (7:08:44 PM): Note Anne is modeled on the head secretary that Erle Stanley Gardner married once his first wife died.

Major oz (7:09:02 PM): My mentor was about 18 yrs older than me.  A cantankerous, obese, brilliant, horny old woman.

AGplusone (7:09:10 PM): And then, there's Heinlein and Ginny.... maybe a same sort of relationship.

aggirlj (7:09:19 PM): :-D

Motherthing2002 (7:09:43 PM): a girl after my own heart, Oz

AGplusone (7:09:45 PM): Bertha Cool and Donald Lam.

Bookman99R (7:09:54 PM): well, I dunno Patty was 'cantankerour'

Major oz (7:10:25 PM): She kicked my butt, and drove me like a mule, convincing me to do things academically I had no clue I could do.

AGplusone (7:10:26 PM): (the Cool and Lam pair are ESG's second most famous set of characters).

aggirlj (7:10:39 PM): So how old were you?  Old women are relaive

aggirlj (7:10:43 PM): relative

Major oz (7:11:44 PM): I was 20 and she was indeterminate.........late 30's or so.  My great close friend till she died in '99

Bookman99R (7:12:01 PM): PeeWee couldn't make it

aggirlj (7:12:05 PM): Really ancient

Bookman99R (7:12:09 PM): so I'm sending her off to bed

Bookman99R (7:12:26 PM): I dunno

AGplusone (7:12:32 PM): Does everyone know that the Jubal household in the Pocomos was modeled deliberately by Heinlein on ESG's household in Temecula, California, from which he wrote most of his stories?

Motherthing2002 (7:12:38 PM): I must really be decrepit to those 20-somethings I go to class with

Bookman99R (7:12:46 PM): I had a 'fling' with a woman in her 40s when i was in my early 20s

Motherthing2002 (7:12:55 PM): I didn't know that

aggirlj (7:13:01 PM): You were blessed

morganuci (7:13:07 PM): I thought it was Palm Springs?

Bookman99R (7:13:27 PM): do I need to write my autobiography, m'dear?

Bookman99R (7:13:28 PM): lol

Major oz (7:13:28 PM): She was physically repugnant, but I loved her familialy as no one else.

Motherthing2002 (7:13:35 PM): I had to marry a man 13 years younger than the first one to find one mature enough for me

AGplusone (7:13:40 PM): Gardner had a group of secretaries who rotated and who typed up his stories. Temecula is close to Palm Springs.

Bookman99R (7:13:47 PM): flatterer

aggirlj (7:14:04 PM): Young are maleable

Motherthing2002 (7:14:14 PM): :-*

AGplusone (7:14:21 PM): And with whom he lived around a pool, etc. The Morango Indians (the ones who have the casinos) have the estate now.

Major oz (7:14:30 PM): ...get a room...........

Bookman99R (7:14:39 PM): you were luckier than I, Oz - mine fell apart, although not in a disasterous fashion

Motherthing2002 (7:14:45 PM): we already did

Major oz (7:15:07 PM): Never physical, but always spiritual.

morganuci (7:15:08 PM): OK, that's Temecula then.

Bookman99R (7:15:12 PM): although you probably had a higher-quality one to start with

Major oz (7:15:29 PM): My wife couldn't stand her, as she saw right through my wife.

Bookman99R (7:15:36 PM): heh

Major oz (7:15:40 PM): .....took me 24 years

Bookman99R (7:16:21 PM): takes a long time to see things we don't want to see

Major oz (7:16:33 PM): drink............brb

Motherthing2002 (7:17:25 PM): uh oh, we're going into reminisce mode!  Is SIaSL the only topic book or are we looking at other female characters?

morganuci (7:17:45 PM): Others too.  If we're ready, let's move to another book/character.

AGplusone (7:17:49 PM): [MT: there's a PBS series called California's Gold in which the fellow who does the thing goes to the estate in Temecula and interviews Gardner's one surviving secretary about it. You can order the episode from PBS.]

aggirlj (7:17:53 PM): God question, I'm curious too.

Bookman99R (7:18:02 PM): anyhoo, I think with SIASL, the problem curent Feminists have, as that the visible Authority Figures were all male

aggirlj (7:18:04 PM): Good

Motherthing2002 (7:18:25 PM): Thanks David, I'll take  look

morganuci (7:18:30 PM): Well, I haven't heard of feminists complaining that Jesus was a man.  But maybe they have?

AGplusone (7:18:54 PM): Huell Howser is the narrator. He's been doing it about 20 years or so now.

Bookman99R (7:19:19 PM): I suspect that some do, but no experience with it - they probably bail to some neo-pagan group, so they can worship a Goddess

morganuci (7:19:25 PM): I've seen CA Gold, but not that episode, unless I didn't realize what it was.  I'll look for it.  Thx.

aggirlj (7:19:28 PM): There are some that think God is/should be a woman.

aggirlj (7:19:56 PM): With a fabulous sense of humor.

morganuci (7:20:14 PM): Moses, Krisna, Buddah, Mohammed, Jesus, Abraham---all the biggies were men, at least until relatively recently.

Bookman99R (7:20:17 PM): well, life's a joke, anyway  ;-)

AGplusone (7:20:27 PM): [The Morangos seem disposed to preserve the estate as a museum.]

Bookman99R (7:20:35 PM): a practical joke, and a dirty one, at that

aggirlj (7:21:15 PM): agreed

Bookman99R (7:21:21 PM): but I second the call to move texts

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Bookman99R (7:21:31 PM): hummm

Motherthing2002 (7:21:36 PM): there was a joke a few years(decades) ago, A man wanted to come back and describe God, so he pulled a "Flatliners".  When he was revived he said "God is black, and boy is she p!ssed!"

Major oz (7:21:46 PM): The FSM is both sexes, isn't he/she, Rusty?

aggirlj (7:22:05 PM): lol

AGplusone (7:22:07 PM): WE could take about authority figure Hartley Baldwin in Friday ....

Bookman99R (7:22:10 PM): what books place women in equal/superior roles with men

AGplusone (7:22:15 PM): after a five minute break maybe.

aggirlj (7:22:22 PM): k

morganuci (7:22:47 PM): OK, back at 7:28.

Bookman99R (7:22:51 PM): FSM is non-gender-specific, but the generic male terminaology is used to refer to Him

Major oz (7:23:03 PM): hokay

Bookman99R (7:23:06 PM): OTOH, FSM _does_ have "balls"

Bookman99R (7:23:07 PM): lol

Major oz (7:24:06 PM): I am getting a lot of mileage out of my ID t-shirt.  The one made for me at the Centennial Conf.

AGplusone (7:24:09 PM): Well, MT, there is the female black president written by Heinlein (modeled after Uhura) in the end story in Expanded Universe.

Bookman99R (7:24:38 PM): whether they be testes or ovaries is one of the Great Mysteries, and as such is not to be examined

Motherthing2002 (7:24:39 PM): I liked that reference!

Bookman99R (7:24:59 PM): yep, that was a good one

Motherthing2002 (7:25:23 PM): I was a Trekkie long before I knew about RAH

Bookman99R (7:25:58 PM): OTOH, they sent Uhura up pretty good in "Galaxy Quest"

AGplusone (7:26:06 PM): "Over the Rainbow" which begins at page 456 in the hardbound.

Motherthing2002 (7:26:22 PM): "Dammit, I only have one job on this ship..."

Bookman99R (7:26:28 PM): yup

Motherthing2002 (7:27:05 PM): Sigourney Weaver was a good choice for that one, as well

Bookman99R (7:27:12 PM): Spider made the comment that they took the Token Femal, and the Token Black, and made her a switchboard operator

Motherthing2002 (7:27:40 PM): yes, but she was on the bridge, in the chain of command

Bookman99R (7:27:42 PM): so for '60s gender roles, RAH is hardly alone

Bookman99R (7:27:50 PM): true

morganuci (7:28:00 PM): And Kirk still had a female to get him coffee

aggirlj (7:28:23 PM): Oh, Geeze, he had Majel Roddenberry to nurse him to health.

morganuci (7:28:24 PM): Not to mention that it's a decade past when the bulk of Stranger was written

Bookman99R (7:28:35 PM): a lot of what criticisms are made against RAH blatantly indulge in "presentism"

Motherthing2002 (7:28:38 PM): "oh cabin boy, oh cabin boy..."

Bookman99R (7:29:00 PM): where is that plucky little nipper?

Motherthing2002 (7:29:11 PM): of course they do, they wouldn't have much to say if they weren't using 'presentism'...

AGplusone (7:29:15 PM): The cabin boy is hiding in the barrel of apples listening to my namesake plot the mutiny.

Bookman99R (7:29:27 PM): lol

Major oz (7:29:31 PM): And SW's costume getting inch-by-inch eaten away in the final scene.  Great sarcasm.

Bookman99R (7:30:17 PM): So, what about "Let there be Light"?

Bookman99R (7:30:27 PM): brb

morganuci (7:30:39 PM): Sure, ask a question and then leave!

Motherthing2002 (7:30:59 PM): "potty emergency! Potty emergency!

Motherthing2002 (7:31:13 PM): aka Wakko Warner

morganuci (7:31:19 PM): I was thinking about Delilah and the Space Rigger.

Motherthing2002 (7:31:48 PM): I did like Brooksie

Bookman99R (7:32:10 PM): yeah

morganuci (7:32:20 PM): Which of us wrote the Wikipedia article about it :-)?  "is arguably one of the best feminist works of fiction ever written by a male author"

Major oz (7:32:38 PM): ?

Bookman99R (7:32:39 PM): she wasn't in command, but she stood her ground, in the face of fairly blatant sexism, didn't she?

aggirlj (7:32:53 PM): Yeah, which one Tim?

Motherthing2002 (7:33:07 PM): and without becoming a 'screaming meemee' about it

AGplusone (7:33:11 PM): Funny thing: M.L. Lord claims she loved the juveniles, and took her use for initials from them. Yet, there's on initialled names in the juveniles. Instead, it's Let There Be Light and Delilah and the Space Rigger, both adultstories

AGplusone (7:33:43 PM): in which initials are used, and stories written in the 193--40s, when women did have to use initials.

AGplusone (7:34:00 PM): "on" = "no"

morganuci (7:34:24 PM): Well, it wasn't me!  But I have to say, *1949*.

Bookman99R (7:34:26 PM): minor slip-up on her part?

Motherthing2002 (7:34:42 PM): TMI:  I can say that RAH had a big effect on my sexuality even before I knew what boys were really for

AGplusone (7:35:04 PM): No, I think Lord and Newitz are really from an alternate history and reading different stories.

morganuci (7:35:16 PM): <g>!

Bookman99R (7:35:19 PM): lol

Motherthing2002 (7:35:19 PM): could that have been part of my 'feminist liberation?

Major oz (7:35:23 PM): "...really for"  Now who's sexist?  :-)

Bookman99R (7:35:45 PM): well, not "sexyist", but pretty sexy

Bookman99R (7:35:47 PM): ;-)

Motherthing2002 (7:35:48 PM): come on!  back then they were walking testosterone factories

Major oz (7:36:09 PM): who?

Bookman99R (7:36:12 PM): but what effect, MT?

Motherthing2002 (7:36:20 PM): BOYS

Motherthing2002 (7:36:35 PM): You really want specifics public?

Major oz (7:36:36 PM): OHHHHH, I see...........:-)

aggirlj (7:36:39 PM): Well now there's a qualifier

Bookman99R (7:36:42 PM): what, he taught you what boys were for?

Bookman99R (7:36:53 PM): <shuts up>

Motherthing2002 (7:36:54 PM): nope, how to deal with them

Bookman99R (7:37:00 PM): although it's probably too late

Major oz (7:37:01 PM): good idea, R

Motherthing2002 (7:37:35 PM): essentially I realized that I had to use my brain first before I used my body

Bookman99R (7:37:41 PM): yeah, i know what you did to all the 4-legged boys in this house

aggirlj (7:37:53 PM): ?

Motherthing2002 (7:37:59 PM): poor guys, and now they love me...

Bookman99R (7:38:00 PM): no wonder I sleep lightly

Bookman99R (7:38:11 PM): cats, Jane

aggirlj (7:38:18 PM): okay

aggirlj (7:38:30 PM): I could see three

Motherthing2002 (7:38:51 PM): I'm willing to be more specific if you guys want to change the slant of this chat

Major oz (7:38:55 PM): I am slowly, reluctantly, and quite disbelievingly, moving to the point where comparing strong, independent, self-sufficient, and worth-a-shit women to men in the canon is disturbing.

Bookman99R (7:39:19 PM): how so, Oz?

Bookman99R (7:40:14 PM): you clearly have something, but I'm missing it

Major oz (7:40:21 PM): Friday is strong, but not the rest.  Poddy is a dip-shit.  Deeja toris is Scarlet O'Hara.  Even Hilda is a crone.

Major oz (7:40:44 PM): I have trouble finding a role model in the fems

aggirlj (7:40:47 PM): Now, now, crones aren't a bad thing.

Motherthing2002 (7:40:58 PM): but every character has to have that Greek "fatal flaw"

Major oz (7:41:08 PM): Manny's #1 wife is a close as I can get.  Maybe Hazel Stone.

AGplusone (7:41:15 PM): Maybe Heinlein was tongue in cheeking Ginny. Treat me like that again, and I'll put that aspect of your character in my next novel.

Motherthing2002 (7:41:15 PM): if they didn't, they wouldn't be interesting

Major oz (7:41:42 PM): Yabbut, they all have multiple flaws.  It's as if they have only one redeeming characteristic.

Bookman99R (7:41:47 PM): OTOH, do the men have said "fatal flaw"?

Bookman99R (7:42:02 PM): ML Martin?

Major oz (7:42:37 PM): The men each have gobs of good characteristics and one flaw.  Women the other way around.  IN GENERAL

Bookman99R (7:42:47 PM): she appears to have it all, just about

morganuci (7:43:03 PM): What about Wyoh?

Bookman99R (7:43:15 PM): hmmm...  something to that

Major oz (7:43:41 PM): Wyoh's appearences are so brief that she cannot be well evaluated.

AGplusone (7:43:56 PM): I don't know about men with just one flaw. The later Lazarus s a PITA.

Major oz (7:44:02 PM): Whe sounds like a meta-fiction

Major oz (7:44:17 PM): And that is his flaw

Major oz (7:44:28 PM): ...but that is all

Bookman99R (7:44:44 PM): <shrug> LL is an asshole, IMO

AGplusone (7:44:50 PM): Colin is stubborn and conflicted

Major oz (7:44:56 PM): yeah, his one fatal flaw

AGplusone (7:45:00 PM): Zebbie is immature

Bookman99R (7:45:16 PM): RAH had a real ability to write jerks who come off as sympathetic charachters

Major oz (7:45:21 PM): But each has an absense of multiple flaws.

Major oz (7:45:36 PM): ...just the one big killer one

AGplusone (7:45:39 PM): Jake has multiples

aggirlj (7:46:00 PM): Gee, I thought this was about women in Heinlein.

AGplusone (7:46:07 PM): Can't lead, egomaniac, can't follow, and won't get out of the way.

Major oz (7:46:09 PM): That's where the IN GENERAL comes in.  Jake is a paper mache character.

Bookman99R (7:46:10 PM): point to Jane

AGplusone (7:46:28 PM): I didn't think he was paper. Worked for one like that once.

AGplusone (7:47:10 PM): He needs a Sharpie ... to beat him every night.

Major oz (7:47:19 PM): H tried to reverse the male and female attributes in Jake and Hilda.  It almost worked, but Hilda was such a harpy that it didn't come off.

Motherthing2002 (7:47:44 PM): I didn't see her as that much of a harpy

AGplusone (7:48:02 PM): A good match, of opposites. Like a sado mascochist

Major oz (7:48:07 PM): I should have said: "H tried to reverse HIS male and...."

Motherthing2002 (7:48:09 PM): some of the harpy-ness was simply expedience

AGplusone (7:48:22 PM): Jake Sprat and his wife who could eat no lean.

Major oz (7:48:57 PM): eggs -- omlets ?

Bookman99R (7:49:11 PM): not to mention Hilda had a big problem - establishing her authority as Capitan, without command structure & tradition to back it up

AGplusone (7:49:37 PM): sodium and chloride, both poisons, ye† become the salt of life

Major oz (7:49:56 PM): Shame, David

AGplusone (7:50:04 PM): <g>

aggirlj (7:50:09 PM): Did you do that on purpose.

Major oz (7:50:19 PM): Faulty analogy

Bookman99R (7:51:24 PM): not to mention that as Captain, Hilda had to deal with external male authority figures who were, in the main, sexist themselves

AGplusone (7:51:39 PM): I think Heinlein was parodying himself with Jake.

aggirlj (7:51:50 PM): I think you are all sugar coating this. 

Major oz (7:52:00 PM): Back to my original whine: I am not in agreement with the "RAH was a sexist" chants, but I am leaning to the one dimensiolity of most of his fems.

Bookman99R (7:52:00 PM): one way, or another she had to kick them in the teeth until they treated her as an Equal

AGplusone (7:52:43 PM): Like Friday does to Percival. Bind him up and then let him free.

Major oz (7:52:54 PM): She could get by with it, R, because they thought so in the first place.

Bookman99R (7:52:55 PM): you may have a point, Oz, as there were damn few Femal leads

aggirlj (7:53:00 PM): It is impossible, given the time and what was the norm, to not say RAH had sexist leanings.

Bookman99R (7:53:54 PM): I dunno if "leanings" is quite the term I'd use, madam Jane

AGplusone (7:54:20 PM): Well, in 1938 when he wrote FUTL he used the word "nigger" which they edited out of what they published. The one edit I noticed.

Bookman99R (7:54:23 PM): biases of several sorts, though

Major oz (7:54:52 PM): Hilda was what-was-left.  Zeb had no scruples or values.  Deety was a wrist-to-the-forehead swooner.  Jake was a non-person.  Hilda had an agenda and saw the opening.

Motherthing2002 (7:55:21 PM): was he fighting those biases by going too far in the other direction(for the time)?

aggirlj (7:55:48 PM): He had a tendency to fluff it up.

Major oz (7:55:51 PM): Do you mean he was ahead of his time in equality, so he compensated?

AGplusone (7:55:54 PM): He mother, Bam, was a feminist. For his time he echoed her.

AGplusone (7:56:22 PM): His ...

Major oz (7:56:32 PM): Bam was a suffreget, but was she a feminist in the way we think of it today?

Major oz (7:56:53 PM): "Feminist", today, is MUCH more than equality.

Bookman99R (7:57:00 PM): from what I gather, especially in the SF field, RAH certaily moved female charachters up the food chain, at least intil 1970 or so

Motherthing2002 (7:57:04 PM): time to go cuddle up to some pain pills---good night all!

AGplusone (7:57:10 PM): Couldn't have been. She wouldn't have been able to envision where Paglia et al would take it.

aggirlj (7:57:15 PM): It may be that he gave his women characters strong

AGplusone (7:57:16 PM): Night MT

Major oz (7:57:18 PM): Night MT

Bookman99R (7:57:21 PM): good night, m'dear

aggirlj (7:57:23 PM): Bye Motherthing

 Motherthing2002 has left the chat room.

aggirlj (7:58:01 PM): nevermind

Bookman99R (7:58:27 PM): she leaves like a cat

Bookman99R (7:59:00 PM): ok, since there's a lull...

Major oz (7:59:07 PM): But........even in the face of my leanings,  I don't see any of his fems thinking of themselves as subservient.

AGplusone (7:59:32 PM): I think he was still moving them up in the 1980s with Friday, Rusty. She's actually the bisexual that idiots like Mendelsohn claim Heinlein doesn't reach.

Major oz (7:59:33 PM): ....even though they ALL supported whatever man was in their lives.

Bookman99R (7:59:40 PM): how much of RAH's treatment of female charachters was influenced by the Market?

aggirlj (7:59:55 PM): Or the editor?

Major oz (8:00:18 PM): Did H ever speak on fems in combat?

AGplusone (8:00:29 PM): Helen

Major oz (8:00:41 PM): ?

Major oz (8:00:54 PM): wetware drying up

aggirlj (8:00:59 PM): Gotta go.

AGplusone (8:01:02 PM): Tunnel in the Sky. Captain Helen Walker, Amazons.

Major oz (8:01:05 PM): bye Jane

Major oz (8:01:11 PM): ah, so

AGplusone (8:01:13 PM): Nte Jane

Bookman99R (8:01:15 PM): g'nioght Jane

aggirlj (8:01:21 PM): bye for now

 aggirlj has left the chat room.

AGplusone (8:01:38 PM): She had a company of what sounded like Infantry to me.

Major oz (8:01:56 PM): (couldn't read Jane's yellow name -- didn't know who she was)

morganuci (8:02:02 PM): Were they mixed or all women?

Major oz (8:02:18 PM): Amazons tells me all fems

Bookman99R (8:02:21 PM): Hmmm  TCWWTW, the "apnking girl"

AGplusone (8:02:26 PM): And Carolyn was going to be just like her. {It's that windows you have Oz]. I think the Amazons were just that.

Bookman99R (8:02:32 PM): spanking

AGplusone (8:02:36 PM): Gretchen.

Bookman99R (8:02:56 PM): yeah, she was a captain of something or other, IIRC

Major oz (8:03:13 PM): Was she the spy?

Bookman99R (8:03:27 PM): I think RAH tended to all-one-sex combat units, though

Bookman99R (8:03:53 PM): Gretchen?  I thought Bill was the spy

Major oz (8:03:55 PM): But did he ever say anything IRL about the subject.

Major oz (8:03:57 PM): ?

AGplusone (8:04:14 PM): Done a few tours between Number and To Sail. No. The little girl whose parents lived on the Moon, rescued Colin and Hazel, and then shows up in To Sail with her company of archers for the battle of britain.

Major oz (8:05:05 PM): Oh, yeah.  The one who gets lost in the town square with more than one of her running around.

Major oz (8:05:35 PM): I always thought of her as a time travelling Mossad.

Bookman99R (8:05:41 PM): heh

Bookman99R (8:06:15 PM): but IIRC, Gretchen was a combat vet, byt the time Colin had the leg grafted on

AGplusone (8:06:32 PM): ("Number" should be "Cat")

AGplusone (8:06:45 PM): Yes, "Done a few tours"

AGplusone (8:07:00 PM): or loops

Bookman99R (8:07:43 PM): heh - "All you Zombies" does the protagonist get classed as male, or female?

Major oz (8:07:48 PM): A woman that I thought was "all woman" -- who was sure of herself and had no pretentions was the wife of the airline pilot in Friday.

Bookman99R (8:07:55 PM): or just a matter of deliberate deception?

Major oz (8:08:11 PM): I would have liked to see her character developed more.

Bookman99R (8:08:27 PM): don't recall her

AGplusone (8:08:38 PM): That was Friday's first female partner--the one Mendlesohn thinks desn't exist in Heinlein.

AGplusone (8:08:46 PM): Janet.

Major oz (8:09:28 PM): H's very last fem, Margareth, was an absolute washout -- a nothing, even though she liked ice cream.

AGplusone (8:09:47 PM): No, Janet was the architect in Canada. Torchy was the pilot's sister. I don't think the airline pilot had a wife. Just girl friends.

Bookman99R (8:09:56 PM): Q: does "strong female charachter" only count for positive role models?

AGplusone (8:10:13 PM): Mrs. Keithley

Bookman99R (8:10:21 PM): yup

Major oz (8:10:23 PM): No.  A fem can be a strong, nasty bitch.

Major oz (8:10:28 PM): That is still strong.

AGplusone (8:10:39 PM): Sharpie, Hilda

AGplusone (8:10:55 PM): Grandma S†one

Bookman99R (8:11:10 PM): the Mrs. Grew, from Podkayne

Major oz (8:11:15 PM): I admit to G-ma

Major oz (8:11:33 PM): Mrs. Grew is one dimensional.

Major oz (8:11:45 PM): good or bad doesn't matter.

AGplusone (8:11:47 PM): Even Dr. Edith Stone when you got in her way. For that matter, Poddy's mother was probably hell on wheels.

Major oz (8:11:57 PM): Probably

Major oz (8:12:01 PM): but we never know

Major oz (8:12:07 PM): Yo, JJ

Bookman99R (8:12:14 PM): yeah, but off-stage too much to count, I think

Bookman99R (8:12:37 PM): Poddy's mom, that is

AGplusone (8:12:58 PM): The unpublished Number contains the real Dejah Thoris and another one from Burroughs who are strong.

Bookman99R (8:12:59 PM): "Mary", from Puppet Masters?

Major oz (8:12:59 PM): I just got a message that JJ signed on, but don't see him in the roster.  Anyone else get the message?

Bookman99R (8:13:16 PM): JJ?

Major oz (8:13:21 PM): Brannon

AGplusone (8:13:31 PM): Yeah, just sent him an invite

Bookman99R (8:13:32 PM): no-see-um

 JJ Brannon has entered the chat room.

Major oz (8:14:01 PM): Hey JJ

Bookman99R (8:14:03 PM): hi, JJ

AGplusone (8:14:07 PM): Hi, JJ. Talking about Heinlein's Wimmen

morganuci (8:14:08 PM): Welcome!

JJ Brannon (8:14:09 PM): RAH's women?

Major oz (8:14:15 PM): fictiona;

Major oz (8:14:18 PM): l

JJ Brannon (8:14:27 PM): That, too!

morganuci (8:14:33 PM): Humm  Maybe next month it should be the real ones?

Major oz (8:14:51 PM): Before I forget, JJ, I need a pic of the "painted lady"

AGplusone (8:14:54 PM): Dont know enough about Elinor

AGplusone (8:15:11 PM): I got one, but I could use any others you have JJ

Bookman99R (8:15:19 PM): heh, if you mean from the Centennial, count me in!

Major oz (8:15:31 PM): ...in the original paint.

JJ Brannon (8:16:09 PM): Pam told me.  I have one somewhere.

JJ Brannon (8:16:22 PM): But you still don't have broadband?

Major oz (8:16:50 PM): I tried her home page, but my credit card timed out. :-)

JJ Brannon (8:17:04 PM): Something about recs.art?

Major oz (8:17:29 PM): ...and a 900 number

AGplusone (8:17:55 PM): You'll have to make do with the one I'll publish of Kondo looking at her with a bemused expression while her bodyguard glowers over.

JJ Brannon (8:17:57 PM): :>)

Bookman99R (8:18:19 PM): lol

Major oz (8:18:25 PM): You got my CD, didn't you, David?

AGplusone (8:18:32 PM): Huh?

Major oz (8:18:49 PM): All the pics from Centennial and Denver

AGplusone (8:18:56 PM): No!

Major oz (8:19:24 PM): AAARRRRGGGG   Let me take the broom to my desk in the next coupla days.

AGplusone (8:19:24 PM): Unless you've mailed it rather recently. Say after the New Years

Major oz (8:19:41 PM): It is boxed.  I thought I mailed it over a month ago.

Major oz (8:20:12 PM): I vil fix

JJ Brannon (8:20:13 PM): I ordered a laptop right after the Centennial, because of the battery, and it arrived on 9 Au/

AGplusone (8:20:18 PM): ppreciate it

Major oz (8:20:44 PM): So, JJ.  Tell us which RAH woman you would like to spend a month on a sailboat with.

Major oz (8:20:59 PM): ....and why

JJ Brannon (8:21:03 PM): 9 Aug and broke my arm 11 Aug.  I got the new machine unboxed two months later.

JJ Brannon (8:21:34 PM): Stumper!

AGplusone (8:21:35 PM): Dorcas ... and if I have to tell you why you haven't read Stranger lately.

JJ Brannon (8:21:41 PM): Les' see...

AGplusone (8:22:41 PM): " ... 'xactly how much of the Koran do I have to read, Stinky." or wtte

AGplusone (8:23:01 PM): I think she's the one got Michael

morganuci (8:23:12 PM): I always thought so also

Bookman99R (8:23:58 PM): could be

JJ Brannon (8:24:17 PM): Not Friday, maybe Delilah and a solar sail.

Major oz (8:24:29 PM): For me, it would have to be one who could handle both me and the sails.

JJ Brannon (8:24:46 PM): Well, Delilah's a rigger...

JJ Brannon (8:24:55 PM): :>)

Bookman99R (8:25:01 PM): no, she's a commo spec

Major oz (8:25:03 PM): yuk, yuk

AGplusone (8:25:42 PM): "Dorcas is willing" See: http://ky.essortment.com/biblewomendorc_rerm.htm

Major oz (8:25:45 PM): 'fraid Friday has to be the one, cause I really don't want the empress of all the galaxies on board.

Bookman99R (8:25:51 PM): I'm really hard-pressed, on that one

JJ Brannon (8:26:01 PM): Some of it must have rubbed off on her.  *coff*

Major oz (8:26:10 PM): bible-women-dork         ???

Bookman99R (8:27:25 PM): oh, Oz?

Bookman99R (8:27:41 PM): for some reason, you were never on my AIM list

Bookman99R (8:27:49 PM): I've corrected that

Major oz (8:28:29 PM):  When I came back from two years in the islands, I flipped a coin between motorhome and sailboat.  Came up motorhome.  I didn't know any fem that would want to sail blue water other than my niece and I'm not into incest.

Bookman99R (8:28:32 PM): Mary Lou might make a good choice

Major oz (8:28:47 PM): hoo is mary lou?

Bookman99R (8:28:54 PM): ML Martin

Major oz (8:29:19 PM): wetware backup.......amplify, please

Bookman99R (8:29:31 PM): "Let There Be Light"

Major oz (8:29:45 PM): Friday's mom?

Bookman99R (8:29:53 PM): pretty blonde who's as smart ans any 3 men

JJ Brannon (8:30:02 PM): Gail?

AGplusone (8:30:07 PM): The one who with Archie invents the sunscreens in Let There Be Light, but lets Archie have the credit.

Major oz (8:30:23 PM): hokay, hokay...........

AGplusone (8:30:41 PM): Patterson thinks she has 'self-esteem' problems. Sorta like Ginny I suppose.

AGplusone (8:30:53 PM): An enabler.

AGplusone (8:31:15 PM): Presentism criticism.

Bookman99R (8:31:17 PM): or she just doesn't have anything left to prove

Bookman99R (8:32:00 PM): got a list of accomplishments as long as her arm, already, where Douglas is an unknown

Major oz (8:32:10 PM): Actually, the best developed fem I can recall, from the standpoint of multiple strengths, is the double-crossing bitch from _Door Into Summer_

Bookman99R (8:32:24 PM): interesting

AGplusone (8:32:45 PM): The one who is described looking like Betty Grable or Marilyn Monroe or the feather dancer depending on what version you read.

Bookman99R (8:33:02 PM): although she was ultimately self-destructive, from just those strengths

Major oz (8:33:17 PM): ...but they were there

Bookman99R (8:33:21 PM): Belle, wasn't it?

Major oz (8:33:26 PM): ya

AGplusone (8:33:28 PM): DArkin

morganuci (8:33:57 PM): Do you think ML did what she did because of her looks (and having grown up with them)?

Bookman99R (8:34:04 PM): Rikki the child we knew a bit about

Bookman99R (8:34:13 PM): as an adult, she a zero

JJ Brannon (8:34:35 PM): I want a grown woman.

AGplusone (8:35:09 PM): We could consider Dora the human from Happy Valley.

Major oz (8:35:29 PM): When I read Job the first time, I was hoping that it would evolve into a strong, loving couple living out a life in mutual love and support -- almost, but not quite a happily-ever-after story.  If he had lived long enough, I like to

AGplusone (8:35:33 PM): tougher than the rest I think

JJ Brannon (8:35:34 PM): Some who can shoot, canoe, and handle calculus.

Bookman99R (8:35:35 PM): yeah, but she's gotta be interesting beyoond looks, for the sailboat scenario

Major oz (8:35:42 PM): think that he would have written that, as a biographical fini.

Major oz (8:36:45 PM): Dora would circumnavigate well.

AGplusone (8:36:48 PM): Well, he'd have had to sail quite farther beyond the sunset, but I think he was pointing there with Friday's return.

Bookman99R (8:37:11 PM): brb

AGplusone (8:37:24 PM): She's not staying on Toowoomba once she's empty nested.

Major oz (8:37:58 PM): I forget.  Does that universe have forever-young treatments?

JJ Brannon (8:38:23 PM): Eventually.

AGplusone (8:38:29 PM): It's got Jake's marvelous machine, and Boondock has it.

Major oz (8:38:32 PM): ...and you underestimate the grandma reflex

AGplusone (8:39:01 PM): Just as Maureen gets it, and the Doc will, then Friday will.

AGplusone (8:39:23 PM): We All Become Gods!

Bookman99R (8:39:37 PM): heh

Major oz (8:39:41 PM): Hokay, I agree.  She can always go back for g-kid bar-mitzvas

JJ Brannon (8:40:15 PM): Of course, on solar sails, one could literally sail into the sunset.

Bookman99R (8:40:18 PM): I dunno about Gods, David, but I'll nominate you for Prophet

AGplusone (8:40:26 PM): stop by the Twelve Universes and take a trip with Oscar

Bookman99R (8:40:38 PM): you can certainly generate the text

Major oz (8:40:39 PM): Forever corny: "First star to the right, straight on 'till morning".

AGplusone (8:40:48 PM): Yep.

Major oz (8:41:18 PM): I loved it when JTK said it in one of the SW movies.

Bookman99R (8:41:30 PM): 'course, I'm getting pretty verbose, these days - PKB?

Bookman99R (8:41:31 PM): lol

JJ Brannon (8:41:49 PM): "City on the Edge of Forever"

Major oz (8:41:59 PM): ok

JJ Brannon (8:42:11 PM): Methinks.

Bookman99R (8:42:19 PM): nah, that was an ep

Major oz (8:42:54 PM): The sailor in me always wonders how one tacks a solar sailing vessel.  What does the keel push against?

Bookman99R (8:43:08 PM): at the endof the one following "Save the Whales"

AGplusone (8:43:09 PM): Reading STranger is fun again. Sitting and making a list of all the undiscussed points this time.

Bookman99R (8:43:15 PM): or at the end of that one??

Bookman99R (8:43:46 PM): I've wondered that myself, Oz

morganuci (8:44:08 PM): How about we do Stranger next month, if you have a pre-made list of Qs?

Major oz (8:44:10 PM): Kinda like Richard Dryfus walking onto the alien ship to the strains of "When You Wish Upon A Star".

AGplusone (8:44:11 PM): Probably a discussion of it in Flynn's novel.

AGplusone (8:44:40 PM): Fine with me. Might use a compare contrast between 61 and 91 while I'm at it if I find anything.

morganuci (8:45:04 PM): I was going to ask, which version were you reading this time?

AGplusone (8:45:21 PM): Compared the discussion of goats in 91 and 61 Tim?

Major oz (8:45:26 PM): David, are you and Bill P the only ones who have done a side by side read of them

AGplusone (8:45:36 PM): No, Geo did one.

morganuci (8:45:41 PM): No, I should!

AGplusone (8:45:48 PM): And I haven't actually finished one.

Major oz (8:45:59 PM): Takes a lot more energy than I have.

Major oz (8:46:21 PM): 'course, I could have done it in the bomb shelter monday night.......

AGplusone (8:46:26 PM): Not that hard. Just read the 91 with the 61 in your lap.

AGplusone (8:47:11 PM): Every chapter stop and read the other quickly. See if there's notable omissions or significant changes.

Bookman99R (8:47:27 PM): I dunno about next moth - SIASL is a big bite for one discussion

Major oz (8:47:40 PM): Didn't you say there is about 3K word difference?

AGplusone (8:47:46 PM): Could do it one book at at time. Five books in Stranger.

Bookman99R (8:47:51 PM): I shoulda thought to generate a charachter list

Bookman99R (8:47:56 PM): a thought

AGplusone (8:47:59 PM): More like 30 K difference.

Major oz (8:48:07 PM): eeeek

morganuci (8:48:09 PM): I thought it was more like 50,000?  160K to 220K.

AGplusone (8:48:17 PM): yeah

morganuci (8:48:24 PM): The AR web site says the regular version is 157,xxx words.

JJ Brannon (8:48:28 PM): 65K

Major oz (8:48:31 PM): I have read them both, but not simul.....simle......silum.ll.........at the same time

Bookman99R (8:48:38 PM): or at least by themes sex & marriage, religion, press, government

Bookman99R (8:49:03 PM): etc

Major oz (8:49:30 PM): Can do, but have just begun a re-read on Steel Beach. 

Bookman99R (8:49:35 PM): although I hope that by next moth, I'll be unavailable to muddle things up in these chats

Bookman99R (8:50:06 PM): (meaning that I'll be back to work, finally)

AGplusone (8:50:30 PM): Could do "His Maculate Origin" and "His Preposterous Heritage" first month, then "Eccentric Education" and "Scandalous Career" next, and finish with "Happy Destiny" the third one.

Major oz (8:50:31 PM): Out of a whole month, the second Thursday is the only one that I have a comitement for.  A bit of sickness tonight is why I am here.

Major oz (8:50:53 PM): .....and I am virtually never home weekends.

JJ Brannon (8:50:56 PM): Your band.

AGplusone (8:51:02 PM): That would take us through April.

morganuci (8:51:09 PM): How about a different Thursday?

AGplusone (8:51:17 PM): Fine with me.

Major oz (8:51:20 PM): I am just one guy

Major oz (8:51:26 PM): don't do it for me

JJ Brannon (8:51:34 PM): Oz, what's your email?

AGplusone (8:51:36 PM): Sure we can.

Bookman99R (8:51:40 PM): well, they're gonna need you to replace me, Oz...

Bookman99R (8:51:41 PM): lol

Major oz (8:51:47 PM): MajorOz@centurytel.net

morganuci (8:51:58 PM): Truthfully, we've shifted around a little from month to month because of my schedule, holidays, etc., so why not for this reason?

JJ Brannon (8:51:59 PM): Got it!

AGplusone (8:52:11 PM): eactly

AGplusone (8:52:20 PM): exactly

JJ Brannon (8:52:21 PM): Still on dialup?

AGplusone (8:52:35 PM): propane powered dialup

Major oz (8:52:40 PM): yeah, propane powered ISP at 28K

Major oz (8:53:16 PM): They change bottles at 0600 and 1800 hrs, daily

Major oz (8:53:43 PM): I live in a county without a stoplight.

Major oz (8:54:10 PM): The one east of me has one.  The county west of me has three.  The county south has none.

JJ Brannon (8:54:52 PM): Dang!  Paradise!

Major oz (8:54:54 PM): No high speed inside the National Forest

AGplusone (8:55:11 PM): How high's the snow?

Bookman99R (8:55:14 PM): oh, MT did wonder if she'd made a welcome addition, BTW

Major oz (8:55:17 PM): none

Major oz (8:55:19 PM): its the ice

Major oz (8:55:24 PM): but not yet

AGplusone (8:56:14 PM): Easter's coming soon.

Major oz (8:56:52 PM): The Feds have declared that there were in excess of thrity touchdowns mon night.  Two killed, Eleven serious injured. Zillions in damage, including schools and some commercial buildings in city of Springfield.

AGplusone (8:57:11 PM): February 21st good for you, Oz?

Major oz (8:57:13 PM): Three went by me about half a mile away. One was a class 3

Major oz (8:57:32 PM): lemme look

AGplusone (8:58:14 PM): Why don't we do first two books of Stranger, then Tim, if it's okay?

Major oz (8:58:16 PM): works for me.  SO's birthday, but we do it on Friday.

Bookman99R (8:58:27 PM): did I go invisible?

AGplusone (8:58:40 PM): No. We still see you.

Bookman99R (8:58:44 PM): ok

Major oz (8:58:50 PM): (streches out arms)  where am I ?

morganuci (8:59:21 PM): Agreed---first two books for next month, etc., as proposed.

AGplusone (8:59:24 PM): Ozark National Forest, using your propane powered ISP at 28 K.

AGplusone (8:59:41 PM): ;-P

Major oz (8:59:42 PM): Mark Twain NF, as H would have liked.

JJ Brannon (9:00:14 PM): That's MO boy!

Major oz (9:00:18 PM): Hey, its witching hour.

morganuci (9:00:28 PM): Yeah, I need to go myself.

Bookman99R (9:00:29 PM): eh?

AGplusone (9:00:35 PM): Yep. three hours.

Bookman99R (9:00:36 PM): nly got 2300 here

 JJ Brannon has left the chat room.

AGplusone (9:00:49 PM): By JJ

Bookman99R (9:00:58 PM): but since this is the end of all the show

Bookman99R (9:01:03 PM): g'night gents

AGplusone (9:01:06 PM): I have a log, Tim.

morganuci (9:01:38 PM): OK, good, I'm not sure I do, so I'm glad you've got it.  Goodnight all!

Major oz (9:01:40 PM): Enjoyed it folks.  Looking forward to meeting you, Tim

morganuci (9:01:49 PM): Me too!

Major oz (9:02:06 PM): g-night all

AGplusone (9:02:07 PM): G'nite.

Bookman99R (9:02:11 PM): I'm going to miss this

Bookman99R (9:02:18 PM): (I hope ;-)  )

 Bookman99R has left the chat room.

 Major oz has left the chat room.

 morganuci has left the chat room.

 
End of Discussion


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