Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Thursday 10/25/01 09:00 P.M. EDT Martians

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Thursday 10/25/01 09:00 P.M. EDT

Martians

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Heinlein Readers’ Group

AIM Chat October 25, 27

“Martians”

Reading: SIASL

Suggested: Rainbow Mars by Larry Niven, any other book dealing with Martians.

The question of how to describe Heinlein’s Martians recently arose, and, having recently read Rainbow Mars, it intrigued me. It seems to me that most “Martians” in Science Fiction are actually transplanted terrestrials. I tend to classify aliens in speculative fiction by their physical, social and phsycological traits. As an example I would classify Dejah Thoris from Edgar Rice Borroughs’ Mars series as physically, psychologically , and socially terrestrial.

In most cases I have seen, the Martians in speculative fiction are only alien in one of the three traits, and a very few manage two. Heinlein seems to be the only author to have created a Martian race that was alien in all three aspects. Are there better ways to classify fictional Martian races?

Are truly alien Martians so rare because they are harder to write? Or are partially or wholly terrestrial aliens written because we must have something to identify with? Valentine Micheal Smith is intriguing in the first portion of SIASL, but would we enjoy the book as much if not for Jubal’s humanizing influence upon him? Does anyone truly identify with Heinlein’s Martians, or just with their place in his stories?

Jim
ERB’s Martians are good ones to look at; the Heinlein links are very strong. His Barsoom series gets mentioned in Glory Road (and probably elsewhere) as an example of high adventure and of course, it’s a plot element of NOTB.

I agree that Dejah is hard to see as alien. Despite the fact that she lays eggs ( and yet can still mate with John Carter) she’s just a very beautiful human, with exotic copper/red coloured skin ( I wonder if this was seen as daring in those days?) but still not that alien. The interesting thing about those books is that there are several dominant races though; the many armed savage green men of Thark for instance. Now they are more alien and they do seem to think differently than us too.

It’s also worth noting ( and I wonder if this is where Heinlein got the idea from) that the Tharkians have no humour, or at least not as we know it, which is of course, the same as the Martians of SIASL. Mike learning to laugh is a pivotal point in that book. This is what it says in “A Princess of Mars” “..I was to learn that the Martian smile is merely perfunctory, and that the Martian laugh is a thing to cause strong men to blanch in horror. The idea of humor among the green men of Mars are widely at variance with our conceptions of incitants to merriment. The death agonies of a fellow being are, to those strange creatures, provocative of the wildest hilarity, while their chief form of commonest amusement is to inflict death on their prisoners of war in various ingenious and horrible ways.”

The lack of love given to the children, who struggle to survive, is also comparable to the nymphs of SIASL, many of whom die in infancy.

Going back to the general theme, Mars has a reputation for being warlike; Mars, God of war, The Red Planet, red equating to blood, Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, that sort of thing. That subliminal baggage attached to the word may be why, a lot of the time, Martians are represented as fearsome invaders. Another theme is that they have mental powers ( I’m relying on an old memory of Bradbury and the Martian Chronicles here, I may be mixed up). I’m thinking of that story when men land and it seems that their families are there and it’s all a trick.

It’s rare that the Martians are friendly neighbours. Wonder why?

Jane


http://www.heinleinsociety.org

> The question of how to describe Heinlein’s Martians recently arose, and,
>having recently read Rainbow Mars, it intrigued me. It seems to me that
>most “Martians” in Science Fiction are actually transplanted terrestrials. I
>tend to classify aliens in speculative fiction by their physical, social and
>phsycological traits. As an example I would classify Dejah Thoris from
>Edgar Rice Borroughs’ Mars series as physically, psychologically , and
>socially terrestrial.
> In most cases I have seen, the Martians in speculative fiction are only
>alien in one of the three traits, and a very few manage two. Heinlein seems
>to be the only author to have created a Martian race that was alien in all
>three aspects. Are there better ways to classify fictional Martian races?

One of the better descriptions of Martians were the three ‘hnau’ of Malacandra (“OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET,” by C.S. Lewis). After letting myself be transported to a land where height was accented more than on earth, I found that I did NOT recognize the two humans as humans when Ransom saw them after his time among the Malacandrans. It was a bit of a shock to recognize them, after not doing so. It seems that Lewis made an attempt to portray races that were alien, and he certainly seemed to succeed.

—Debbie Levi
“Debbie Levi”wrote in message

(snip)

>> In most cases I have seen, the Martians in speculative fiction are only
>>alien in one of the three traits, and a very few manage two. Heinlein seems
>>to be the only author to have created a Martian race that was alien in all
>>three aspects. Are there better ways to classify fictional Martian races?
>

I think that one of the most fascinating martians I have ever come across were in Stanley Weinbaum’s ‘A Martian Odyssey’

Weinbaum very capably wrote about a Martian who was very ‘alien’, but with enough commonality to humans that he/it was able to communicate at a certain level even though much of his behavior was totally ‘strange’. Along with the main Martian character Tweel, there was the ‘dream beast’ which lured it victims with some sort of hypnosis, the communal-hive characters carrying loads of stuff to a central ‘grinder’, (for whatever reason) and the virtually immortal, silicon, pyramid-building creatures. SF lost a great talent when Weinbaum died of cancer at a very early age, leaving behind only a few outstanding works. The worst problem that I have now with Weinbaum is that the paperback version of ‘A Martian Odyssey’ leaves out a whole bunch of the stories that I remember reading as a teenager in the 50’s.

OT: one of Weinbaum’s stories, ‘The Adaptive Ultimate’ has been developed on the large screen, and a number of times on the small screen, the only one I saw being on ‘Science Fiction Theater’ with Truman Bradley as host during the late 50’s, I believe.

(snip)

David Wright
“David Wright”

>I think that one of the most fascinating martians I have ever come across
>were in Stanley Weinbaum’s ‘A Martian Odyssey’
>
>Weinbaum very capably wrote about a Martian who was very ‘alien’, but with
>enough commonality to humans that he/it was able to communicate at a certain
>level even though much of his behavior was totally ‘strange’. Along with the
>main Martian character Tweel, there was the ‘dream beast’ which lured it
>victims with some sort of hypnosis, the communal-hive characters carrying
>loads of stuff to a central ‘grinder’, (for whatever reason) and the
>virtually immortal, silicon, pyramid-building creatures. SF lost a great
>talent when Weinbaum died of cancer at a very early age, leaving behind only
>a few outstanding works. The worst problem that I have now with Weinbaum is
>that the paperback version of ‘A Martian Odyssey’ leaves out a whole bunch
>of the stories that I remember reading as a teenager in the 50’s.

It would seem that you describe aliens using a different system. From this little bit it would appear that you concentrate more upon the psychological similarities where I notice the physical, social, and psychological differences. Is this a fair appraisal? Or, am I making too much stew from one oyster?

Would you care to flesh out your system of describing these aliens, and then give a fuller description of Weinbaum’s creations, as well as your take on Heinlein’s? It would be interesting to see how you describe them compared to my (as yet limited) description.

Jim
Speaking of Lewis’ Deep Heaven trilogy (a bit off the topic, I’m afraid) I recently ran into new hardback issues of Perelandra and That Hideous Strength at a used bookstore in Santa Cruz.

Bill
“BPRAL22169″wrote in message news:

>Speaking of Lewis’ Deep Heaven trilogy (a bit off the topic, I’m afraid) I
>recently ran into new hardback issues of Perelandra and That Hideous Strength
>at a used bookstore in Santa Cruz.
>Bill
>

Not off topic at all, Malacandrans are Martians after all. Thanks for the tip.

Jim
“Debbie Levi”

>One of the better descriptions of Martians were the three ‘hnau’ of
>Malacandra (“OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET,” by C.S. Lewis). After letting
>myself be transported to a land where height was accented more than on
>earth, I found that I did NOT recognize the two humans as humans when
>Ransom saw them after his time among the Malacandrans. It was a bit
>of a shock to recognize them, after not doing so. It seems that Lewis
>made an attempt to portray races that were alien, and he certainly
>seemed to succeed.

Lewis certainly managed to draw me right in. After early exposure to Heinlein, I noticed some books by Lewis on the shelves at home, and Out of the Silent Planet definitely caught my interest. I read the whole trilogy at a gulp, and then tried the Narnia books, which led to Tolkien, with a side trip into Lewis’ essays.

Lewis was certainly more physically descriptive than Heinlein, but I think that is more a matter of stylistic technique than it is a deficiency of authorial voice. Psychologically I would say that the Malacandrans were very much human, with the exception of the Eldil. (Too long since I read the trilogy, wasn’t Malacandra the name of the head Eldil, and where does Oyarsa fit in?)

How would you classify the different races created by Lewis and Heinlein? Do you use a methos similar to mine to describe them?

Jim
“Jane Davitt”

>ERB’s Martians are good ones to look at; the Heinlein links are very strong. His
>Barsoom series gets mentioned in Glory Road (and probably elsewhere) as an
>example of high adventure and of course, it’s a plot element of NOTB.
>
>I agree that Dejah is hard to see as alien. Despite the fact that she lays eggs
>( and yet can still mate with John Carter) she’s just a very beautiful human,
>with exotic copper/red coloured skin ( I wonder if this was seen as daring in
>those days?) but still not that alien. The interesting thing about those books
>is that there are several dominant races though; the many armed savage green men
>of Thark for instance. Now they are more alien and they do seem to think
>differently than us too.

Is adding four arms and naturally growing spanish armor really that much of a differnce? Physically they are still bilaterally symetrical. On the other hand, I may be strecthing a point too far to try and make it fit my original hypothesis.

>It’s also worth noting ( and I wonder if this is where Heinlein got the idea
>from) that the Tharkians have no humour, or at least not as we know it, which is
>of course, the same as the Martians of SIASL. Mike learning to laugh is a
>pivotal point in that book. This is what it says in “A Princess of Mars”
>”..I was to learn that the Martian smile is merely perfunctory, and that the
>Martian laugh is a thing to cause strong men to blanch in horror.
>The idea of humor among the green men of Mars are widely at variance with our
>conceptions of incitants to merriment. The death agonies of a fellow being are,
>to those strange creatures, provocative of the wildest hilarity, while their
>chief form of commonest amusement is to inflict death on their prisoners of war
>in various ingenious and horrible ways.”

First, I do not agree that they have no sense of humor. That theirs (Tharkian’s) is more base can not be denied, but they do have one. By ours I am going to have to assume that you mean post modern Western Culture, as the Roman Coliseum and it’s events would seem to be ideally suited to a Thark Warrior. (As would some of the passtimes in Nazi Germany, and the extremist Arab countries today.) These are not our own cultural norms, but they have been, and are, norms for different human cultures that exist with us here on this globe.

The Heinlein Martians lack of humor is an entirely different animal. There was no equivalent at all in there psychological map to the human emotion. Trust and bonding seem to be the only real commonalities between us, and it is hard to envision a species evolving without those two emotional components. (At least not a social one.)

>The lack of love given to the children, who struggle to survive, is also
>comparable to the nymphs of SIASL, many of whom die in infancy.

I am always reminded of spawning salmon when this is mentioned. Truly alien to us.

>Going back to the general theme, Mars has a reputation for being warlike; Mars,
>God of war, The Red Planet, red equating to blood, Men are from Mars, Women are
>from Venus, that sort of thing. That subliminal baggage attached to the word may
>be why, a lot of the time, Martians are represented as fearsome invaders.
>Another theme is that they have mental powers ( I’m relying on an old memory of
>Bradbury and the Martian Chronicles here, I may be mixed up). I’m thinking of
>that story when men land and it seems that their families are there and it’s all
>a trick.
>It’s rare that the Martians are friendly neighbours. Wonder why?

Even in SIASL they are not really friendly. Just ask the inhabitants of what was once the 5th planet. Could it be that the idea of Mars, God of War, and Martian Invaders has become so much a part of Western thought that even attempting to write friendly Martians is almost impossible? Have you read Rainbow Mars yet? Even Niven was unable to posit anything but warlike Martians. (On the other hand, Lewis’ Malacabdrans were not particularly warlike.)

Jim
“Nuclear Waste”writes:

>Lewis was certainly more physically descriptive than Heinlein, but I think
>that is more a matter of stylistic technique than it is a deficiency of
>authorial voice.

Does anyone else feel like reading Heinlein is a lot like listening to a radio program?

(Don’t take this as criticism, BTW. I love radio shows.)


Our enemies are never villains in their own eyes, but that does not make them
less dangerous. Appeasement, however, nearly always makes them more so.
— Don Dixon
______________________________________________________________________________
Charles R (Charlie) Martin Broomfield, CO 40N 105W

“Charles R Martin”wrote in message news:omain…

>”Nuclear Waste” writes:
>
>>Lewis was certainly more physically descriptive than Heinlein, but I think
>>that is more a matter of stylistic technique than it is a deficiency of
>>authorial voice.
>
>Does anyone else feel like reading Heinlein is a lot like listening to
>a radio program?
>
>(Don’t take this as criticism, BTW. I love radio shows.)

Yes, exactly the same feeling. Enough description for you to paint your own picture, but not so much that it intereferes with your picture.

Jim

>>Does anyone else feel like reading Heinlein is a lot like listening to
>>a radio program?
>>
>>(Don’t take this as criticism, BTW. I love radio shows.)

Magical insight ! That is exactly what it is.

>
>Yes, exactly the same feeling. Enough description for you to paint your own
>picture, but not so much that it intereferes with your picture.

Perfectly stated…..my compliments.

cheers

oz
Yesterday afternoon I went shopping.
I was confronted in the parking lot
by someone selling bumper stickers.
I broke his nose and bent his bicycle
wheel spokes. Then I found a quarter.
It was a 1994P. I put it in the coin rack
in my SUV.

Jim kicked this subject we’re going to continue to discuss this Saturday afternoon off by observing:

> The question of how to describe Heinlein’s Martians recently arose,and,
>having recently read Rainbow Mars, it intrigued me.

“Martians,” or aliens have always generally intrigued me as well. Maybe it’s the influence we get from the tales we are told from babyhood: “Here there be monsters!” Or bogeymen, or giants, or elves, or fairies. How does Mowgli, the son of the alien “Pack,” or so he thinks, really think and function? Why?

>It seems to me that
>most “Martians” in Science Fiction are actually transplanted terrestrials. I
>tend to classify aliens in speculative fiction by their physical, social and
>physiological traits. As an example I would classify Dejah Thoris from
>Edgar Rice Burroughs’ Mars series as physically, psychologically, and
>socially terrestrial.

I’ve always been inclined to look at the function: the ‘monsters’ are always intended to present a challenge, a danger, physically, psychologically, or socially to the “men.” What’s the challenge? Why is it presented? To me, “form follows function” and I look to the purpose.

Take for example the Edgar Rice Burroughs tales of Mars. I admit it’s been quite a while since I’ve read all of them; but I reread the first, _Princess of Mars_, last year, and I’m looking at it again with the vague memories of past readings of all of them; and it seems to me that what Burroughs is creating is a nostalgic romance: John Carter is the displaced antebellum gentleman of the FFV (First Families of Virginia) that Twain parodied so mercilessly when Jim Crow began to raise his head in the late 1870s and 1880s; but who were also, in some cases, when not devoted to reestablishing a medieval order and reimposing actual slavery on persons of “color” and actual peonage on others of their ‘color’ but inferior to them in the social order (“po’ white trash”) were an idyllic sort, the chivalric gentle knight, kind, brave, and heroic.

This is the image James Ewell Brown Stuart, late Major General of Cavalry of the Armies of Northern Virginia, portrayed during the Civil War, during his short time of fame. Tristans, Rolands, Galahads, Gawains, the Red Cross Knight, … even the real Cincinnatus, and Washington and the Lees. That sort.

The story starts with Captain Carter, late of the Army of Northern Virginia, out grubbing for gold in Arizona … because the War has ruined his fortune, those hundreds of thousands of Confederate dollars are useless paper, and he can’t resume his gentleman’s life without filthy lucre. He can’t be beloved by everyone, even the slaves, because of his qualities as a perfect, gentile knight, without the comfort and leisure that a fortune will bring him.

So Burroughs creates a world for Carter to go ‘questing’ populated with aliens who function as Martian dragons, armies of enemies, fair princesses, and it’s a return to a fantastically altered past … a romantic one that never existed for the FFV in 19th Century except in the tales of Arthur and Charlemagne. The Martians are aliens, but only in the sense of puppets who look, act, and play the function of Guineveres that the Round Table’s knights could love, the Moors Roland and Oliver could nobly die stopping, dragons to be slain to rescue fair maidens or find or at least continue to seek the Grail.

And that, iirc, is what Captain John Carter does for the rest of the series, in between occasional pit stops. He resumes life as knight errant. His real life alternative was to become the father of George Smith Patton, Jr., II., and try to instill the same values into little “Georgie,” who was graduating, iirc, from West Point about the time Burroughs was writing the first of these. [Instead of fighting Martians, Georgie’s daddy left the South and moved to Pasadena and became a rich lawyer — and played host to famous visitors who had served with his father (the General who served the Confederacy), who impressed the son, later known as “Blood and Guts” Patton, that a knight could still serve the ideal of a country.]

> In most cases I have seen, the Martians in speculative fiction are only
>alien in one of the three traits, and a very few manage two. Heinlein seems
>to be the only author to have created a Martian race that was alien in all
>three aspects. Are there better ways to classify fictional Martian races?

I prefer function, but when function requires a vast divergence from human norms, the three tier classification you’ve created serves a useful purpose.

> Are truly alien Martians so rare because they are harder to write?

Take Edgar Pangborn’s Martians in _A Mirror for Observers_: they’ve assumed a human shape so well that they certainly pass, but they are so far removed from humans in virtue, that I’d describe them as performing the function of either Guardian Angels assigned to teach gentility to potential romantic heroes or Fiends assigned to individuals possessing the qualities to become new Hitlers or Stalins, to goad those flawed humans into actually becoming that, or possibly worse. Imagine a for real angel on one shoulder and devil on the other, whispering into the respective ears of every person. Right out of the religious dogma of Everyman! And that’s the function they perform, either they’ll succeed in uplifting man above his vices and bring a Heaven on Earth or inundate and submerge him into all manner of his vices and help him turn it into Hell.

For a mirror of this role, look at the functions the wolves, the bear, and the panther, on the one hand, and Shar Khan the lame tiger, on the other, perform upon Mowgli’s ethics in Kipling’s tales.

>Or
>are partially or wholly terrestrial aliens written because we must have
>something to identify with? Valentine Michael Smith is intriguing in the
>first portion of SIASL, but would we enjoy the book as much if not for
>Jubal’s humanizing influence upon him? Does anyone truly identify with
>Heinlein’s Martians, or just with their place in his stories?

Which gets me to the Martians of Heinlein, doesn’t it? What role do they play, angel or devil, in _Red Planet_ and _Stranger in a Strange Land _? Is it the same role, for they do appear to be the same Martians? What do we really think of the mainly off-stage Martians who groked the infant Michael Valentine, and taught him to grok, and then sent him back to his Pack? Are they the same Martians as the ones who share water with James Marlowe? In function, or merely in form?

Maybe we can talk about this a little this evening. See you all, 5 PM to 8 PM, EDT, tonight, Saturday, October 27, 2001, in the AIM chat room, “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”


David M. Silver
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.readinggroupsonline.com/groups/heinlein.htm
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

Jane Davitt wrote:

>
>Nuclear Waste wrote:
>
>>
>>Is adding four arms and naturally growing spanish armor really that much of
>>a differnce? Physically they are still bilaterally symetrical. On the
>>other hand, I may be strecthing a point too far to try and make it fit my
>>original hypothesis.
>>
>>> It’s also worth noting ( and I wonder if this is where Heinlein got the
>>idea
>>> from) that the Tharkians have no humour,
>>
>>First, I do not agree that they have no sense of humor. That theirs
>>(Tharkian’s) is more base can not be denied, but they do have one. By ours
>>I am going to have to assume that you mean post modern Western Culture, as
>>the Roman Coliseum and it’s events would seem to be ideally suited to a
>>Thark Warrior. Jim
>
>I wouldn’t get too hung up on the shape myself; remember what Jubal and Mike
>discuss, whether the disembodied brain was still human? They decide that shape,
>the envelope, doesn’t make the man, it’s what’s written on the letter. Going by
>that, the number of arms or even the similarity to us is irrelevant.
>Besides, Mars is so close to us that you’d expect them to be similar as the
>conditions, low gravity apart, are quite earth like.
>I agree that there are historical parallels between the Tharkians and the Romans
>but, and this seems to be what makes them really alien, pain is all that makes
>them laugh. I’m sure the Romans chuckled over other things as well as mayhem and
>destruction.
>
>Jane
>–
>http://www.heinleinsociety.org

One of the best bunches of aliens whose writer stuck to their own rules was in /Hunters of the Red Moon/, Marion Zimmer Bradley (1973). Darkovrians, by contrast, are essentially “human” but for the added abilities of Matrix handlers.

[Dennis M. Hammes]

>^,,^<
It is better to break ground and head into the wind
than to break wind and head into the ground.
http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/

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AGplusone: Hi, Dave … hear back from Connie

AGplusone: I’m watching PBS BBC …

DavidWrightSr: Nope. Nothing back yet. I was hoping that your message would spur her on.

AGplusone: hoped so too

AGplusone: I’ve loaded some new software today … a little unstable I think.

DavidWrightSr: Canals?

AGplusone: So if I go *poof* I’ll be back.

DavidWrightSr: I think I’ve got the same thing on.

DavidWrightSr: On tv that is

AGplusone: I’ve been reading canals … Niven’s book is fun. Went out and bought … Burroughs and Bradbury again. Talking about Northern Alliances now

AGplusone: hit supply route

DavidWrightSr: This appears to be Antique Roadshow

AGplusone: HQ of an Arab unit hit

AGplusone: same program?

DavidWrightSr: I think we are seeing different programs.

AGplusone: looking at ‘refuge’ camps on border of Afghanistan now … I get a kick out of the Taliban … hide with refugees …

AGplusone: lot of REMFs among them

DavidWrightSr: REMF?

AGplusone: go the the ‘front’ during the evening so they don’t get bombed in the cities

AGplusone: acronym … first three of which are “Rear” “Echelon” and “Mother”

DavidWrightSr: Gotcha

AGplusone: Just like the Russian commisars

AGplusone: Understand bin Ladin’s brigade has been sent out and dispersed among the other Taliban units to ‘stiffen morale’ …. LOL

AGplusone: probably the same way

AGplusone: 7.63 mm stiffening

DavidWrightSr: 🙂

AGplusone: hear XP is getting mixed reviews

DavidWrightSr: I have had an eval copy for several weeks. Looks good with lots of security features. my machine is too slow for it

AGplusone: yeah, that’s the problem I hear. If you need it, you need a new machine.

AGplusone: 128 RAM minimum to use it.

DavidWrightSr: I’m studying win2k right now. They are a lot alike. Win2k required almost as much

DavidWrightSr: Well, ram’s cheap right now.

DavidWrightSr: Big disk required too. Win2k requires at least 600-750mb just for the OS

AGplusone: And a lot of nasty little “you really want to sign up with this and that … and little spies to make sure you don’t load it on your laptop too.”

AGplusone: Good ol’ Bill!

DavidWrightSr: The worst thing I’m aware of is the ‘activation’ feature which registers with MS and has to be redone if you modify too much.

DavidWrightSr: But I hear they are backing off of that somewhat

DavidWrightSr: We’re getting legal copies for each machine.

AGplusone: Well, they’re enforcing their license by deactivating your software if you load on your desktop and laptop without buying two copies … a license of adhesion which is probably illegal and anticompetive.

DavidWrightSr: I’m sure that the legal activities are going to continue into the indefinite future.

AGplusone: I’d like to have a loose half million for litigation and bring a class action on that ‘license’ …

AGplusone: make more than the asbestos lawsuits

AGplusone: solution of course is never go on the internet with your laptop

AGplusone: or figure a way to use the ethernet connection to run the OS from one machine. Can you do that?

DavidWrightSr: I’m sure that somebody will be putting out software to get around it.

AGplusone: shame …

AGplusone: depriving Bill of his hard-earned money

AGplusone: BBC is now reporting on XP …

AGplusone: Ballmer quacking

AGplusone: I rooted against Seattle just on general principals. Think Diamondbacks have a chance against the Yankees?

AGplusone: Ballmer is starting to look more and more like Mr. Burns from the Simpsons

DavidWrightSr: Lost whatever interest I might have had when Atlanta lost out.

AGplusone: Yeah, well … feel like me. With the idiots running the Dodgers these years, it’s a regular feeling.

AGplusone: FOX !

DavidWrightSr: Actually, I’ve never paid much attention anyway. My son is a big fan.

AGplusone: I was hoping the Indians would last … but no.

AGplusone: Maybe they’ll win another penant during my lifetime. Last time I was six.

AGplusone: Against the guess who?

AGplusone: oops … meant World Series

AGplusone: [Boston Braves … ] sound familar?

DavidWrightSr: Yeah, Kinda 🙂

AGplusone: Kinda nice. Indians on both sides!

DavidWrightSr: Not PC these days. 🙂

AGplusone: Maybe next year!

AGplusone: The Indians were named about their first team Captain. A guy who was an actual indian

AGplusone: Like Thorpe

DavidWrightSr: There was a guy who was really screwed !

AGplusone: yep

AGplusone: of course we don’t have Mauch Chuck anymore

DavidWrightSr: ?

AGplusone: But I hear the family is still fighting over unburying him and moving him.

AGplusone: Used a be a city in Pennsylvania called Mauch Chuck or somesuch. They made a deal. We’ll change the name of our town if you agree to let us bury you here …

AGplusone: and we’ll charge admission to your grave, make monuments, etc., bring in the touristas

AGplusone: so he agreed, and they did.

DavidWrightSr: Who was he. I’m not familiar with him

AGplusone: Thorpe

DavidWrightSr: Oh that was his indian name?

AGplusone: and some of his family … he’s buried there. Monuments, etc.

AGplusone: Jim Thorpe. No.

AGplusone: Was name of city going way back to revolutionary times

DavidWrightSr: I’m confused.

AGplusone: Jim Thorpe’s name was Jim Thorpe. They’d given up Indian names by then.

DavidWrightSr: That’s what I thought. Who was Mauch Chuck?

AGplusone: I have no idea. It’s probably a degenerate German name of something

AGplusone: or Pennsylvania Dutch

DavidWrightSr: Oh I get you. the town of Mauch Chuck changed their name to Thorpe?

AGplusone: Been named that since revolution … yes.

DavidWrightSr: Had never heard of that.

AGplusone: More specifically, Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania.

DavidWrightSr: I used to live in PA. wonder where it is

AGplusone: Got a recent atlas?

DavidWrightSr: I’ll have to look it up.

AGplusone: brb

AGplusone: About one-third of the way from Allentown to Wilkes Barre

AGplusone: on some river

DavidWrightSr: That’s quite a ways from where I lived.

DavidWrightSr: I was in Eastern PA in Exton.

AGplusone: in the Pocono mtns

DavidWrightSr: Yeah, I was east of there

DavidWrightSr: Actually, not too far, I guess

AGplusone: can’t tell what the river is …

AGplusone: the Lehigh river

AGplusone: . . . anyway we got Ginny’s permission for that collector’s edition of the 41 Guest of Honor Speech … now I gotta learn how to make labels and burn CDs

AGplusone: only need about 100 of them for the first edition

DavidWrightSr: Is that going to the first members of THS?

AGplusone: Yep!

DavidWrightSr: Wow!

AGplusone: … well, Tawn kept saying: we need a bonus! And when Bill and I talked somebody out of a copy of the recording we thought: “D’oh!”

AGplusone: Even Ginny never had a copy of it.

DavidWrightSr: BRB. Gotta feed the cat

AGplusone: feed that cat … otherwise it’ll climb up on your lap

NuclearWasteUSN has entered the room.

NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening

AGplusone: Hi, Jim. Dave’s feeding the cat.

NuclearWasteUSN: I am feeding the short person

AGplusone: You do have one of them, doncha?

NuclearWasteUSN: Three years old and a monster, but mine so his peccadillos are endearing rather than bothersome

AGplusone: I’m going to load some tea on board …

AGplusone: and then talk my daughter into going out and buying me a nice bottle of plonk

AGplusone: when they get 21 they become useful

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL That is why I have a wife

AGplusone: Yeah, but … they’re harder to get to go out and buy a bottle of plonk

AGplusone: … they know better

NuclearWasteUSN: Mine will do anything for me as long as I cook

NuclearWasteUSN: Even hunt snipes

AGplusone: that’s terrible

AGplusone: I forget: what are ‘snipes’ in the Navy

NuclearWasteUSN: Not when you think about my rate in the Navy.

NuclearWasteUSN: LOL Me

AGplusone: what were you Bos’n?

NuclearWasteUSN: Knuckle dragging wrench twisting snipe

NuclearWasteUSN: Good lord no!!!

AGplusone: machinist?

AGplusone: my brother was a corpsman

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes

NuclearWasteUSN: MM Nuke

AGplusone: Two tours on some supply ship called the Mars, supplying the ‘gun line’ and one on the ground with the grunts

AGplusone: ’67 to ’71

NuclearWasteUSN: Supply ships. *sigh* Shore duty with sea pay, and enough sea time to get duty free cigarettes

AGplusone: yeah

AGplusone: 13 cent cigarettes irrc

NuclearWasteUSN: Always wanted to find a nuke powered tender

AGplusone: at least that’s what they were on the Patch when I went over to Germany

NuclearWasteUSN: Camels on base at that time came with two pennies in the wrapper when you got them out of the machine

DavidWrightSr: Hi Jim. Welcome

NuclearWasteUSN: Used to claim them as my prize when Dad sent me to get some for him

AGplusone: like when I was a little kid. Put a quarter in, and got a nickle and two pennies back

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello David Thanks

AGplusone: Yep.

AGplusone: They were 18 cents when I was a kid

NuclearWasteUSN: I was just thinking about $1.00 six packs of Coke

AGplusone: or maybe 17 … I forget

DavidWrightSr: My wife’s brother was Lt. Cmdr in Navy. Had a degree in Music Education and talked the navy into thinking that an M.E. was Mechanical Engineering, so he went to engineering school. Did real well

AGplusone: Naw, 25 cents, plus a carton and six bottles when I was six!

NuclearWasteUSN: Now THAT was ingenious.

AGplusone: special price … ordinarily they were a nickel each

DavidWrightSr: Had just been assigned as Engineering Officer on the Yellowstone and died of a heart attack at 39

AGplusone: they charged two cents for the bottle and three cents for the cardboard carton for a six pack

AGplusone: so you really gave them forty cents for the six pack of bottles

NuclearWasteUSN: That is awfully young

AGplusone: yep, ’48

NuclearWasteUSN: 10 cent refund on bottle when I was young

AGplusone: last year the Indians won the World Series

NuclearWasteUSN: Do they still do that World Series thing?

AGplusone: uh-huh

NuclearWasteUSN: Or has outrageous pay finally killed it?

DavidWrightSr: Family had history. Father-in-law died at 54 and my wife had angioplasty to clear 3 arteries

NuclearWasteUSN: I thought they just awarded it to the highest spending team each year now

AGplusone: You take medicine for chlorestel I hope

AGplusone: I think I’m about to get that prescription myself. Got a visit to the doc scheduled Monday.

DavidWrightSr: Not me. my wife’s family. my problem is diabetes, but under control with meds

AGplusone: Annual physical

NuclearWasteUSN: No cholesterol or BP probs but I am overweight

AGplusone: and my blood pressure was too high to donate in Philly … she took it three times

NuclearWasteUSN: They love me, never a problem and veins you can hit with a dart from accross the room

DavidWrightSr: I had it under control when I lost weight, but put it back on. Just can’t keep away from food.

DavidWrightSr: under control without meds that is.

NuclearWasteUSN: Although may have a problem now, as they have prescribed percocet for pain.

NuclearWasteUSN: We are having a sci fi supper night

AGplusone: Yeah, well, neither did I, junior, at your age. My BP was always amazingly low the docs said

AGplusone: … then it changes

NuclearWasteUSN: Ever do that? Take a meal decribed in a story and make it?

AGplusone: Remember Shell Scott detective novels?

NuclearWasteUSN: Helps that I quit smoking finally

DavidWrightSr: If I did that with Heinlein’s I really would get fat(ter)

NuclearWasteUSN: That is why we have sci fi dinners, not breakfast

AGplusone: When I was a teen, my dad read them. Scott used to eat his breakfast made a certain way.

AGplusone: So I tried it. Pretty good.

NuclearWasteUSN: We are doing A Wrinkle in Time

AGplusone: They have a dinner in Wrinkle?

NuclearWasteUSN: Snack really, but good on a snowy night

AGplusone: What?

NuclearWasteUSN: Tomato soup and tuna on toast with cream cheese.

AGplusone: It’s six here, and I haven’t eaten yet

AGplusone: That’s good

AGplusone: we usually have toasted cheese with tomato soup

fgherman has entered the room.

NuclearWasteUSN: Sounded odd when I first read it, but it is wonderfull

AGplusone: Hi, Felicia

fgherman: Evening all

NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening 🙂

DavidWrightSr: Hi.

AGplusone: tell us about sushi … we’re into food now … dinners described in novels, ever make one?

NuclearWasteUSN: Some day I will do a Georges Perrault

fgherman: Around here (meaning the Twin Cities), food values are much beloved. ddavitt has entered the room.

fgherman: Hello Jane

NuclearWasteUSN: Really? You are in the Cities? I am on the Range

ddavitt: This is David Jane will be along soon

NuclearWasteUSN: Hey JUane

NuclearWasteUSN: Jane even

AGplusone: Hi, Dave. Glad to meet you!

fgherman: Where on the Range. We’re in South Minneapolis

AGplusone: meet two others here ….

NuclearWasteUSN: Nashwauk

NuclearWasteUSN: Between Grand Rapids and Hibbing

fgherman: Got a fair amount of snow.

AGplusone: already?

AGplusone: brrrrr!

NuclearWasteUSN: About 5 inches and still falling

AGplusone: omg

fgherman: 1st blizzard of the season

NuclearWasteUSN: tomorrow a high of 31 and flurries all day

NuclearWasteUSN: Was it as windy down there too?

AGplusone: pretty soon the wolves start crossing the ice from Canada …. 😉

NuclearWasteUSN: Oh no! We have beautiful wolves that live right here

fgherman: You know how bad those Canadians can be

AGplusone: Yeah, but their relatives come visit, right?

NuclearWasteUSN: At least most of them speak some French

ddavitt: Hi, it’s me now so behave!

fgherman: Do I have to?

AGplusone: yes, they say: “Merci, beaucoup … ” as they sit down to dine.

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello Me!

ddavitt: Well, Ok, not if you don’t want to:-)

NuclearWasteUSN: One second fight

ddavitt: David was doing his Fantasy Football before he flies out to England

AGplusone: they still playing ‘football’ in England?

ddavitt: Mais oui!

AGplusone: Or are we talking about CFL football ….?

ddavitt: Soccer!!

NuclearWasteUSN: Sorry, cat and three year old fighting over tuna sandwich

ddavitt: Tuh!

ddavitt: Scary..

NuclearWasteUSN: Madrid Real

fgherman: I’d bet on the cat

ddavitt: All set to host Jim?

AGplusone: with twelve guys … the ‘rover back’ in motion towards the line.

NuclearWasteUSN: I guess so.

AGplusone: You imagine what a tight end type could do with that movement.

ddavitt: Liked your lead off post

NuclearWasteUSN: Thanks, but the conversation seemed to fizzle

ddavitt: I am looking at my cover of Princess of Mars; everyone is beautifully figleafed;-)

AGplusone: So’d I, but I’m only 125 pages into Niven, and went out to buy Burroughs and Bradbury today. Too long since I read them to remember which is which

ddavitt: It does; don’t get the long threads we used to somehow

AGplusone: … I can download Wells

ddavitt: I couldn’t get Rainbow mars; checked out of the library

AGplusone: I cheated. Read the Professors Note …

NuclearWasteUSN: I had Bradbury, and had to really beat my head to remember details from ERB

NuclearWasteUSN: You should have told me, I would have mailed it

ddavitt: The first few are good but the series got a little poor as it went on

AGplusone: I could not. read Princess only about a year ago, but the rest f***y years ago.

ddavitt: S’OK. I won’t be here for the Sat chat so no vital.

ddavitt: I will wing it

AGplusone: So I got Warlord and Gods as well as Princess and Chronicles

ddavitt: I have all the ERB’s.

ddavitt: Used to have the Carson of Venus series but that seems to have vanished

NuclearWasteUSN: Well I guess this is everyone, shall we start?

ddavitt: GA

AGplusone: … shoot

NuclearWasteUSN: Well, we are here to discuss how we describe Martians, especially those of Heinlein

NuclearWasteUSN: I set out my method in my original post, does anyone else have a different classification system?

ddavitt: Bodies, minds, morals was it?

NuclearWasteUSN: Social, physical and psychological

AGplusone: Niven gives us a hint in Rainbow … sez: Lewis’ endils are missing, and so are Heinlein’s Martians … more powerful than the author [meaning Niven].”

AGplusone: I like the classifications …

NuclearWasteUSN: Basically were they terrestrial or alien

AGplusone: or godlike

NuclearWasteUSN: I would say that godlike would be alien

NuclearWasteUSN: But that is my own bias

ddavitt: Planet destroyers; maybe demons not gods

AGplusone: Well, when I’m smoking some ‘good sh*t’ sometimes I think I am … ‘ as Lenny used to say.

AGplusone: Why not malign gods?

NuclearWasteUSN: Planet destroyers could describe us… Not particularly demonic or godlike really. Just bumbling and common

ddavitt: What defines alien? Jim, you seemed to be saying that the physical bit has to be radically different?

ddavitt: Looking at my cover of POM again, the green Tharks look way different

AGplusone: accidental, and usually we don’t run into folk who can turn us into gold statutes …

NuclearWasteUSN: Not really, but something more than the curren Star Trek brow ridge and ear shape

ddavitt: Isn’t upright with arms and legs fairly necessary?

ddavitt: Sure, they are easy aliens….

AGplusone: Del Rey cover, Jane?

ddavitt: Yes; now they DID read the book

ddavitt: Lovely job of depicting the races

NuclearWasteUSN: Not really Jane, just manipulative extensions

AGplusone: love those teeth!

NuclearWasteUSN: and some form of locomotion

AGplusone: boars

ddavitt: But with Mars being so similar to us and so close…

ddavitt: Not surprising they look similar

ddavitt: Heinlein’s don’t mind you

NuclearWasteUSN: What is similar? Lower gravity and pressure

ddavitt: Barsoom, not Mars..lower gravity still but other stuff the same

NuclearWasteUSN: And look at the differences in evolution from one continent to another…

ddavitt: It wasn’t a very accurate Mars

AGplusone: I like Carter’s Martians … and Flash Gordon’s too.

NuclearWasteUSN: Ack!

ddavitt: But which ones david? There were several dominant sentient races

AGplusone: “Ming the Magnificient” was!

NuclearWasteUSN: I have fallen into Number of the Beast, and am making Jake’s mistakes

ddavitt: Dejah’s red martians were just one

AGplusone: I liked them all.

AGplusone: All neat fantasy.

ddavitt: Unusual to do that; usually just one alien race and then alien animals

AGplusone: I thought so … but Flash Gordon did that too. Reminds me in a way of L.Frank Baum’s Oz

NuclearWasteUSN: Hard to think of a way that evolution could render two dominant races that are not constantly at war

ddavitt: Well, in POM, they are all fighting

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, I know.

AGplusone: “races” is the word, Jim.

ddavitt: So that agrees with your thoughts.

AGplusone: We had five then, when Burroughs was writing, didn’t we?

NuclearWasteUSN: Definitely.

ddavitt: If humans can’t get along, not much chance for different sorts of humans

NuclearWasteUSN: I have seen the accusation that ERB threw in warfare for color, but I think there was some thoughyt behind it

fgherman has left the room.

AGplusone: ‘black, brown, yellow, red, and white’ …. LOL

DenvToday has entered the room.

AGplusone: ‘lo, Ron

ddavitt: The black race is villainous IIRC

DenvToday: Evening Dave

DenvToday: Hi everybody

ddavitt: Hi Ron

DenvToday: Hi Jane

ddavitt: But so are those with white skin

AGplusone: talking about the different ‘races’ in Burroughs and Flash Gordon’s Mars.

ddavitt: The red men are the nice guys

NuclearWasteUSN: More a case of species I think. Two species fighting for limited resources, one or the other will be wiped out, or, if evenly matched, they will reach equilibrium through attrition

NuclearWasteUSN: Hello there!

AGplusone: But the fun part is the tree in Niven’s Rainbow! What a name!

DenvToday: Hey Nuc

NuclearWasteUSN: All the names!

ddavitt: What is it?

DenvToday: I just started Pournelle’s King David’s Spaceship.

NuclearWasteUSN: Ygddrassil?

AGplusone: anyone notice how much like Poul Anderson’s Operation Luna, Niven’s Rainbow Mars parodies NASA?

NuclearWasteUSN: Moving everything here so I don’t know where the book is

ddavitt: That’s in Oath of Fealty too; a playground for kids in the enclave

ddavitt: Norse myths isnt it? Odin?

AGplusone: Yes. The basis of the world

NuclearWasteUSN: Also refered to as the Beanstalk. (Heinlein, Brin et al, not to mention from Jack and Fame)

DenvToday: I read Operation Chaos without reading Luna. I must go back and read it.

AGplusone: Loved the name of the Portugese sailor marooned.

AGplusone: You’ll enjoy it …

AGplusone: “Jack” … now they’ll go back and tell the story about how Jack brought down the goose that laid the golden eggs (with some modifications)

NuclearWasteUSN: Rainbow Mars was like reading TNOTB again, but with everyone’s myths

AGplusone: Wasn’t it?

ddavitt: Sounds like fun. Wonder why i couldn’t get into it when I first tried it last year?

ddavitt: I usually love their books

NuclearWasteUSN: It seemed to start really slowly for me, but that little bit of extra effort to get to the meat was worth it

AGplusone: Anderson’s or Pournelles and Niven’s

NuclearWasteUSN: Jane I put it down twice and came back to it.

AGplusone: I felt the same about Rainbow … then I realized he was awakening all sorts of old memories.

NuclearWasteUSN: Finally was the only thing in the car one day while I had a long wait.

AGplusone: I read Tarzan and John Carter when I was around eleven or twelve!

ddavitt: Well, as soon as it comes back, I’ll grab it

AGplusone: f***y years ago

NuclearWasteUSN: Well, Jane, since I feel comfortable picking on you, how would YOU classify the Martians of Stranger?

ddavitt: Ooh….sad and old

NuclearWasteUSN: ***=ivehundred and twent?

DenvToday: lol

ddavitt: A dying race, ready to move on and all become Old Ones

ddavitt: Yet Willis….he was fun and raring to go

NuclearWasteUSN: There is a thought that never would have occured to me using my method

ddavitt: What is?

NuclearWasteUSN: Is that his youth and exposure to humans?

AGplusone: How about: foils … whitened sepulcures (sp?) too slow and lazy to make a difference … satire on academia (expect no Willis in Stranger)

NuclearWasteUSN: Old and ready to move on

ddavitt: Could be; all Jim’s fault:-):-)

ddavitt: Jim marlowe that is

NuclearWasteUSN: Sort of the opposite of Mike

ddavitt: They were slow, slow to react, slow to talk…

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Measured or weary?

ddavitt: Hi Bill

BPRAL22169: Hi, all. Sorry to be late.

AGplusone: spend too long ‘grokking’ the essence of sense

NuclearWasteUSN: No problem! Glad you are here

ddavitt: Are we assuming that RP and SIASL are the same brand of martians?

NuclearWasteUSN: Too long according to us

DenvToday: Evening Bill

BPRAL22169: Thanks, Jim — I presume.

BPRAL22169: Yo, Denv.

NuclearWasteUSN: I always thought they were

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes Bill, this is Jim

ddavitt: RP written first but comes after

ddavitt: Heinlein did that…

AGplusone: too long according to the narrator in SiaSL … by the time they decide it’ll be too late to turn Earth and humanity into the “Fifth Planet” and cherish their memory

BPRAL22169: Thought so. Yes, I believe they were intended to be the same Martians, complete to water-sharing ceremonies.

ddavitt: But H did use a lot of different martians.

ddavitt: Why, when he had the FH chart on the other hand?

AGplusone: Gods who spent too long up on Olympus.

NuclearWasteUSN: Still that is from our viewpoint. I don’t think the Martians of SIASL are the type to argue with the weather

ddavitt: Going from organised to chaotic

BPRAL22169: I don’t think SIASL is supposed to be Future History.

ddavitt: Double Star ones do seem to be akin mentally, protocol and all

ddavitt: No, it’s a different timeline

ddavitt: But …why?

NuclearWasteUSN: How so? I always thought they were moving to the point where everything was planned\

BPRAL22169: I think in the World as Myth books he implies SIASL takes place in your, mine, and RAH’s timeline.

ddavitt: Why not fit them all under the umbrella?

ddavitt: Yes, Jubal and Mo are different lines

BPRAL22169: He felt constrained by the umbrella and lost interest in it after Shasta collapsed.

ddavitt: From what he says he is our world

AGplusone: Are the children that Bonforte simply Willis that have metamorphized and not yet grown to their full ‘adult’ minds and bodies?

DenvToday: The Martians of SIASL are the Red Planet Martians, aren’t they?

ddavitt: Similar feel to them

AGplusone: “… Bonforte [stops and cuddles] simply … ”

ddavitt: I think so Ron

BPRAL22169: I don’t think the Double Star Martians are adult stage — in SIASL he says Old Ones look like adults — i.e., an iceboat in full sail.

ddavitt: Jim G lists about 4 or 5 different martians in all the books and stories

ddavitt: But all are of ancient races, are skilled and mystical in many ways

AGplusone: We also walk … not much too see of them …. ditto for Podkayne … and Between Planets … they are mostly ‘off-stage’

ddavitt: Not often the martians are a primitive race and we can show them something new

AGplusone: Not in Heinlein

ddavitt: Why do we have this inferiority complex towards aliens?

NuclearWasteUSN: Not in any story Jane, good observation

AGplusone: H.G. Wells

ddavitt: Yep, they come, they invade, we die

AGplusone: fear of the powerful ‘aliens’

BPRAL22169: Wells’ Martians are in Rainbow Mars.

ddavitt: OK, we win but then we have to or no one would read it:-)

AGplusone: Those guys over there who cast spears with bent sticks

NuclearWasteUSN: Well, Venusians are generally backwards, and half of the races in the Galaxy seem to need our help to have a hand up

AGplusone: farther than we can ….

BPRAL22169: Something about “Martian Wisdom” and the early 20th century nut cults comes to mind.

ddavitt: But it’s true that we do seem to fear our closest neighbour

ddavitt: And call it by names that inspire fear

AGplusone: specially if they have ‘magic’

DenvToday: Depends on the Venusians. Several races. The dragons are our superiors.

BPRAL22169: Incidentally, Ginny said she might be here later.

AGplusone: good

ddavitt: Great!

DenvToday: How nice!

NuclearWasteUSN: Then there are the Malacandrans of Lewis’;

DavidWrightSr: The martian I mentioned in Weinbaum appeared to be more intelligent that the narrator.

DavidWrightSr: but not threatening

ddavitt: Haven’t read the Lewis books for years; can’t recall them at all

BPRAL22169: There was a menagerie in Weinbaum, wasn’t there?

AGplusone: I still think “Gods” are the Heinlein style Martians … traditionally the ‘visitors’

NuclearWasteUSN: That is a book I need to find

AGplusone: I don’t even know what the Lewis titles are with Martians

DavidWrightSr: At least four types described.

BPRAL22169: I found a new hardback issue of Perelandra and That Hideous Strength in Santa Cruz — Archer Press, I think

AGplusone: Be nice if someone listed them

NuclearWasteUSN: Out of the Silent Planet for the Martians

BPRAL22169: Yes. Ek Thulcandra

NuclearWasteUSN: Perelendra is Venus

ddavitt: Your wish is granted

ddavitt: I have seen them all in one volume

ddavitt: paperback

AGplusone: *ding*! [Jane’s magic wand]

BPRAL22169: That Hideous Strength has Arthur Clarke, a disembodied head, and the return of Merlin.

NuclearWasteUSN: And the last book was That Hideous Strength

AGplusone: You may turn Bob into a magnificant black stallion for me to ride to the ball.

BPRAL22169: Ransome is suppose to have been patterned on AC

NuclearWasteUSN: Did not really understand that book when I first read it at 8

ddavitt: certainly!

BPRAL22169: No, I think you have to be at least 12

ddavitt: Me too; I went to then fresh from narnia and over reached myself

ddavitt: That’s why I am vague on them

BPRAL22169: I never bothered with the Narnia books.

ddavitt: I loved them

BPRAL22169: That is, I read half of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

NuclearWasteUSN: I was warned, but the warning just served to make certain I would finish them

DenvToday: Fifty years ago, children of 8 had superior reading skills to those of today’s 12-year-olds, generally speaking.

ddavitt: At what age?

BPRAL22169: I think I was 20 at the time.

ddavitt: Too old. poor Bill

NuclearWasteUSN: I read the Space trilogy first

AGplusone: Question:

AGplusone: Is it fair to consider most martians either examples of beast tales, or “Lo, the oppressed indian … “?

NuclearWasteUSN: Denv, it was not reading skills, it was a lack of referrents.

BPRAL22169: I think you’re right, Jane.

ddavitt: Elucidate AG

ddavitt: Some classics need to be read first as a child to be appreciated as an adult

DenvToday: Yes, of course you’re right Nuc. But I never pass up a chance to put in a dig at our educational system. lol

AGplusone: Well, except for the Godlike ones like Heinlein’s we have mostly dying out aliens or examples

AGplusone: of what and how we should act … e.g., Bradbury

NuclearWasteUSN: I tend to do that on occasion

DenvToday: David, are we going back to Fennimore Cooper’s Noble Savages?

ddavitt: They are decadent, used up. How is that realted to our changing perceptions of the planet?

AGplusone: dat’s who “Lo, the oppressed savage … ” was.

ddavitt: I mean, barsoom was lively but back then we didn’t know what mars was like

ddavitt: Now we know , will we ever have different martians?

AGplusone: I mean Uncas was the hero!

AGplusone: Not Long Rifle

DenvToday: I wasn’t sure of the reference. But that’s normal for me.

ddavitt: Even Heinlein’s canals aren’t there

NuclearWasteUSN: In Lewis the planet is dying, but the races are vigorous

AGplusone: Uncas was Leonidas and the Spartans

ddavitt: But why is it dying at all?

ddavitt: Foreshadowing of earth’s fate?

BPRAL22169: Old Percival Lowell speculation that Mars was older than earth.

ddavitt: Are they a warning to us?

AGplusone: sure

DenvToday: Hmmm….takes me back. One of my favorite movies as a very young kid.

BPRAL22169: Hence the Barsoom of Burroughs — set the paradigm for everyone else.

NuclearWasteUSN: No, it was an attack by Thulcandra who was cast down

AGplusone: I kept thinking that was how Rainbow was going to end … the timetravelers destroy Mars ultimately by their bumbling

ddavitt: Power coupled with sterility; a dead end evolutionarily speaking

BPRAL22169: And there are the Martians of A Mirror for Observers — almost forgot them.

AGplusone: [hard to]

BPRAL22169: Andy Thornton points out also H. Beam Piper — earth was colonized from Mars in that one, too.

AGplusone: Trying to ‘uplift’ us in the David Brin sense.

BPRAL22169: And then there is Niven’s Martians — an excellent creation in their own right.

DenvToday: I’m always suprised that canals were considered a sign of intelligent life. Every been to Erie? I rest my case.

DenvToday: Ever been to Erie, that is.

ddavitt: Well, being serious, they usually indicate commerce

AGplusone: Well, then you gotta consider that Watt hadn’t really worked out that newfangled teapot thing.

AGplusone: And until he did, those canals were the way to go.

DenvToday: That’s true. I was being flippant. I spent a lot of time in Erie, PA as a child.

NuclearWasteUSN: An engineering work able to be view accross space?

ddavitt: In NOTB they decide there is no civilisation in a world where 2 rivers meet and there is no town; water is vital to growth

AGplusone: I know, so was I

NuclearWasteUSN: Can you see the Great Wall from Mars?

DenvToday: 🙂

ddavitt: can’t see it from space apparently

ddavitt: Or so I was told

AGplusone: Can you see Hoover Dam?

NuclearWasteUSN: I have been told you can

AGplusone: Or the Aswan

DenvToday: Our cities could be seen from Mars by a technilogically advanced race.

ddavitt: A canadian astronaut visted David’s company and told them it’s too narow and covered in vines

ddavitt: Allowing for exageration, I see his point

DenvToday: technologically rofl

NuclearWasteUSN: Darn, there goes another good urban legend

AGplusone: Or if the Chinese turn the Yellow into a lake, you’ll see that big time.

ddavitt: Life just has all the fun sucked out when you bring facts into it…

BPRAL22169: I think Lowell was writing in the 1890’s based on Schiapparelli’s earlier observations, so Lowell’s Mars kicks off both Wells and Burroughs.

AGplusone:

DenvToday: So very true, Jane. Cervantes agreed too.

ddavitt:

DenvToday: Dave, you say that as if it’s a bad thing. lol

AGplusone:

DenvToday: Being crotchity is one of the things you earn with years. You’re entitled.

ddavitt: Get my links up so we can start making money hand over fist

AGplusone: But I Will by Saturday

ddavitt: Before folks start Christmas shopping

AGplusone: And reread Pangborn too, Bill.

AGplusone: That was a good cite!

ddavitt: Jim, a question

ddavitt: How does the indifference of the SIASL Martinas to the nymphs

NuclearWasteUSN: I like the idea I saw today for Jani to record Gay Deciever computer wavs

BPRAL22169: That particular book is worth a re-read.

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes?

ddavitt: fit in with the attitude towards Willis

AGplusone: yes … many times

BPRAL22169: Another important Martians — Piper’s “Omnilingual.”

ddavitt: The hope of a new world and all that

NuclearWasteUSN: Willis was ready to by cherished and grow.

DenvToday: I’ve never read any Piper. I must correct that.

NuclearWasteUSN: Before he was at that point the adults would not have paid any attention

BPRAL22169: I think they made a point of Willis being somehow special.

ddavitt: Why cherish him whn the nymphs die in droves?

AGplusone: real Darwinism if you consider it to be that way …

DavidWrightSr: Just finished that one of Piper’s. Interesting

NuclearWasteUSN: At least that is how I read it.

ddavitt: Lots of other bouncers though

ddavitt: At least in the revised edition

AGplusone: like plankton

BPRAL22169: I think “Omnilingual” is the archetypal science fiction story.

NuclearWasteUSN: Except that they did gather them in when they were ready to be cherished

ddavitt: Jim finds Willis in a whole room of them and can’t tell which is Willis

DenvToday: I feel a trip to the library coming on.

NuclearWasteUSN: And IIRC Willis was at that point

BPRAL22169: Interesting — the Nymphs had discovered an important new survival strategy: enchant a human.

ddavitt: Is this a Lummox thing/?Lots of Hrosshii but only one Princess?

AGplusone: Think of how many lobster never make it past the plankton stage … makes you want to go out and nourish them [and bring them into a nice place that no one else knows about]

NuclearWasteUSN: I always had a feeling of Harvest time when they mentioned it

ddavitt: Is a bouncer a nymph?

AGplusone: yes!

AGplusone: pre-nymph maybe

BPRAL22169: No — doesn’t RAH say something in there about sorting strategies: you either have lots of offspring and let nature do the sorting… in which case you put little effort into each offspring…

DenvToday: David, think of all the melted butter that never gets used. So sad.

AGplusone: like an egg

ddavitt: Bouncer, baby, nymph teenager ( which is why no one cares if they die)

BPRAL22169: or you have a few offspring and put a lot of effort into them individually.

ddavitt:

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, AG We can hide them in my kitchen

AGplusone: MY kitchen

ddavitt: I could never eat lobster

NuclearWasteUSN: David, Brin mentions this as well.

BPRAL22169: More for me!

ddavitt: shudder. Boiled alive. Picked out of a tank.

DenvToday: lol Bill. And me!

AGplusone: “send t’ousands and t’ousands of ’em” I’ll teach ’em how to sing, you betcha!

ddavitt: You can have ’em

BPRAL22169: Goody.

DenvToday: Jane, start on lobster tails and claws–not in the shell. You’ll be an addict in short order.

NuclearWasteUSN: You will never grok their fullness

ddavitt: Did I tell you what David ate in the Algonquin BIll?

AGplusone: Yes! And you didn’t send me the address.

BPRAL22169: “send ‘t’ousands and ‘tousands of em — I’ll grok ’em, you betcha!”

ddavitt: smoked on premises elk, followed by emu in chocolate, lavender and red wine sauce

BPRAL22169: No, jane.

ddavitt: Did too

AGplusone: “emu” was what got my wife!

BPRAL22169: Emu in chocolate?

ddavitt: Sent you the web page and everything

ddavitt: Yep.

BPRAL22169: I don’t remember that.

AGplusone: never got it

ddavitt: I tried that and it was nicer than it sounds

DenvToday: Jane, you kinow what they say: When in Venice, do as the venisons do.

BPRAL22169: However, the smoked elk sounds delectable.

ddavitt: heh

NuclearWasteUSN: Jane he would enjoy a visit here, I have Moose, bear, venison and partridge in the freezer currently

ddavitt: He would love that Jim

AGplusone: So, Jane, if some lady named Joanne Atkinson calls you on the phone one day, treat her nicely and she’ll pay for dinner.

ddavitt: It is way expensive…but worh it

ddavitt: I will send it you again David

DenvToday: Have any of you ever visited Denver? The Fort restaurant is this nation’s finest game restaurant.

NuclearWasteUSN: How about Martian dietary habits?

ddavitt: Do they eat?

NuclearWasteUSN: Anything other than RAH and ERB?

AGplusone: t’anks (another use for Jane’s magic wand …. *ding*!) cannibalism …

BPRAL22169: Simple: martian dietary habits are martians.

ddavitt: Forgot that!

ddavitt: But that is when food is scarce so must eat other stuff

AGplusone: Sound like good Christians to me!

BPRAL22169: The question is: do they eat anything else? They must. There is mention of agriculture on mars.

NuclearWasteUSN: Mike always did need a little salt

NuclearWasteUSN: They told the crops when and where to grow

AGplusone: like the ‘little people’ eh?

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes.

NuclearWasteUSN: When he is one the way to the hospital, or to the meeting with Douglas it is mention\ed

NuclearWasteUSN: I know he is traveling at the time

AGplusone: I wonder if any Martian ever wrote a book entitled “To Serve Man”

NuclearWasteUSN: Just a moment

ddavitt: But water is the prime importance.

BPRAL22169: They don’t seem to have anything corresponding to gastronomy.

AGplusone: I.e., the Lieutenant who went between two rocks and never came out. You don’t think they ‘wasted’ him, do you?

ddavitt: Told you; decadent

BPRAL22169: No, they turned him 90 degrees from everything else — not ate him.

ddavitt: Well, if he gets discorporated he’s not much use

AGplusone: make good stock

BPRAL22169: they “rotated him.”

AGplusone: probably was from ‘good stock’

ddavitt: bad pun!

BPRAL22169: Andy points out: the human martians ate spaghetti with tomato sauce.

AGplusone: nearer in your bloodlines than mine. We Irish is civilized!

AGplusone: been eting potatoes longer than you think

NuclearWasteUSN: Darn I can’t find it right off.

NuclearWasteUSN: I will find it tonight

DenvToday: Now I’m craving corned beef.

NuclearWasteUSN: So what have we got so far?

AGplusone: I’d eat anyting right now, even a sophrano lobster!

NuclearWasteUSN: My rather stilted method, and Jane’s poetic description. Anyone have anything in between?

NuclearWasteUSN: And Bill’s hunger pangs

AGplusone: what is the purpose of having a Martian (Venusian, etc.) in the story?

BPRAL22169: I wasn’t able to find anythin gother than a mention of crops and plants being taught to grow. SAcademy has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Ginny

BPRAL22169: Howdy.

AGplusone: form follows function, seriously

DenvToday: Good evening!

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny. Welcome

NuclearWasteUSN: Good evening Mrs. Heinlein SAcademy: Good evening,. Sorry to be so late.

BPRAL22169: Nice dinner?

NuclearWasteUSN: No problem we are glad you are here

AGplusone: We had Lobster! SAcademy: Great, thanks.

ddavitt: We are all hungry because the talk has moved to food Ginny

ddavitt: As it tends to do..

AGplusone: ‘virtually speaking’ of course. Jane had emu

DenvToday: Roe, roe, roe your lobster boat.

BPRAL22169: You will be happy to know Jane is giving up her share of the world’s supply of lobsters.

ddavitt: Who can I nibble on?

NuclearWasteUSN: We actually started with food Jane.

ddavitt: The cats are too furry…

NuclearWasteUSN: From A Wrinkle in Time

DenvToday: They’re also darned fast.

AGplusone: Dave Wright’s cat was hongry earlier than that

ddavitt: That is being filnmed apparently SAcademy: Maine lobster? I’ll take her share.

ddavitt: Ginny, you can have my lifetime supply:-)

BPRAL22169: I thought you might.

NuclearWasteUSN: I can make the tuna on toast with cream cheese SAcademy: Thanks, Jane!

AGplusone: Back to ‘form follows function’ Jim?

BPRAL22169: I’m not sure A Wrinkle In Time would make a very exciting movie.

ddavitt: I didn’t eat the emu exactly; I’m not adventurous. Just had a tiny taste

NuclearWasteUSN: Could be…

ddavitt: I had muscovy duck breast in rhubarb and port wine

AGplusone: If you have a ‘hero’ like John Carter, clean limbed fighting man of Virginia ….

AGplusone: then you have a lot of Porky Pigs with ‘target’ on their chests.

NuclearWasteUSN: Why are the Martians in the Story? In SIASL they seem to be an integral part of the story, but in some books the aliens are more window dressing and could be replaced with Capt. James Hook

AGplusone: But if you have a bunch of screwed up people like in Pangborn, you have savants

ddavitt: He had an advantage over them because of the gravity; he seemed like superman

AGplusone: and ‘anti-savants’ …. SAcademy: Snowy is howling. Soemthing is wrong.

BPRAL22169: rival cat, I bet.

AGplusone: who are pretty omniscient

ddavitt: Nother cat

BPRAL22169: which “the story,” Jim?

NuclearWasteUSN: Or a three year old

ddavitt: That gets mine beserk, clawing at the window

NuclearWasteUSN: Generic the story

ddavitt: We like aliens in stories though; they are interesting

ddavitt: Scary ( because alien; stranger = enemy and all that)

BPRAL22169: Well, SF is typically cast as a Romance, so the Martian can be Hero or Villain or simply Other. It can be angelic or demonic.

AGplusone: And if you have ‘humans’ who will expand and occupy the universe, eventually, like SiaSL, you have a satire of powerful impotents … who spend too much time grokking!

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, but are the best stories the more fully fl;eshed aliens?

BPRAL22169: And doesn’t that begin to sound like Wells’s Martians, David?

ddavitt: But SIASL said they were NOT aliens but men

AGplusone: Yes

AGplusone: killed by germs

BPRAL22169: I don’t know, jim — the best stories are the ones with the best storytelling.

ddavitt: Even though they fulfilled your three categories well, Jim

NuclearWasteUSN: Good point.

ddavitt: looked different, thought different, acted different

BPRAL22169: “So round, so firm, so fully packed.”

ddavitt: That’s Job and a cigarette yes?

NuclearWasteUSN: Heinlein’s Martians are fully fleshed to me, but others rely more on the author for description

ddavitt: They wouldn’t get away with that nowadays!

BPRAL22169: Just so.

DenvToday: Do you prefer aliens who are human-like in thought (Sir Isaac Newton) or truly alien aliens, such as those in Methuselah’s Children?

AGplusone: Call Cental Casting for some …. [wadda we need for the story here, what kind of extras?] …

BPRAL22169: I get awfully tired of Star Trek’s aliens with nose appliances.

NuclearWasteUSN: Jane they were “man” in that they grokked, but I still tyhink there is a difference

ddavitt: Don’t know..

BPRAL22169: hnau SAcademy: What does “hnau” mean?

NuclearWasteUSN: From CS Lewis

ddavitt: Me too..but I think the physical bit is of little importance.

BPRAL22169: In Lewis’ Out of the Silent Planet, all intelligent things (martians) are hnau.

NuclearWasteUSN: Out of the Silent Planet, Hnau were the intelligent races IIRC

ddavitt: Or is it?

AGplusone: I wanted to read the story in which Lazarus went back and asked them, “Bub, what do you know that I don’t?”

BPRAL22169: there’s an odd correspondence with “all that groks is god.”

ddavitt: We shallow people judge on appearcnce; maybe it’s the most important

NuclearWasteUSN: Hmm, do we really?

NuclearWasteUSN: Is your cat “people”?

BPRAL22169: “Robert Heinlein and C.S. Lewis — together again, for the first time.”

ddavitt: I recall that cliche story. Yuccky aliens jump out of a ship pursuing teddy bear looking ones..guess which we kill and which are the real baddies?

ddavitt: Well, they have personalities but they are cats.

AGplusone: Andre Norton’s early ‘aliens’ were all evolved into ‘humanoid’ … like the jury in Have Space Suit–Will Travel …

BPRAL22169: Ah, yes, the Twilight Zone school of science fiction…

NuclearWasteUSN: We would now kill the teddy bears, and save money by stuffing and selling them

ddavitt: It was a comic actually…2000AD

ddavitt: LOL! SAcademy: Not the koalas!!!

DenvToday: Note to self: Warn all Ewoks about Nuc.

ddavitt: Well. we have to get up at 5.30, or at least David does to catch his flight.

NuclearWasteUSN: Actually, I have a stuffed Ewok, oddly enough

DenvToday: Night Jane.

NuclearWasteUSN: OK Jane, take care

ddavitt: He is off to san Jose after the UK trip

BPRAL22169: Have a good sleep.

ddavitt: But that is a long way from you isn’t it AG? SAcademy: Good night Jane.

BPRAL22169: Tell him to postppone until next September,a nd he can attend ConJose

BPRAL22169: About 450 miles from David; about 120 miles from me.

ddavitt: See you all soon but not Saturday; we are invited out as people feel sorry for us all alone

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

ddavitt: Good point. Night all. ddavitt has left the room.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

NuclearWasteUSN: Welcome back

BPRAL22169: I “esc”d out.

AGplusone: Like the cute aliens in the Galaxy Quest …

DenvToday: wb

BPRAL22169: thx

NuclearWasteUSN: I loved that movie

NuclearWasteUSN: The ultimate cliche

DenvToday: It was very funny. Dead-on satire.

AGplusone: Better than Trek!

AGplusone: loved those little sharp teeth!

NuclearWasteUSN: So Ginny, perhaps you are the best one to ask… How would YOU describe/ classify Robert’s Martians? SAcademy: They were thought up while R. was doing Red Planet, and also when he SAcademy: was working on another story–Gulf and also SAcademy: what became Stranger. So they all have the same Martians.

NuclearWasteUSN: (Ah ha! I KNEW the Red Planet and SIASL Martians were the same!)

AGplusone: was hard to reconcile ‘tree trunks’ in Double Star with the ‘ice boats under sail’ … and I wondered whether we had a branch in development there. SAcademy: Yes. R. had a lot of notes he had made for Red P;lanet and couldn’t use there, so he used them in Stranger.

NuclearWasteUSN: Was that pun intentional AG?

AGplusone: nah … not that smart

DenvToday: One of the things I like most about Red Planet was that RAH left some ambiguity–not neatly wrapped up.

NuclearWasteUSN: So, aside from Lewis, Heinlein, and Weinbaum, are there any other truly alien Martians?

AGplusone: but here we have Yggdrasil … SAcademy: R. always said that he wrote more notes while doing a story that he couldn’t use in that one, and he used those for future stoires.

DenvToday: We never really discover Willis’s true nature.

AGplusone: how’s that for alien … SAcademy: Willis was an egg.

AGplusone: so was Mike, “only an egg” SAcademy: Yes.

NuclearWasteUSN: Ygddrasil was not Martian in origin

DenvToday: Yes, but Willis seemed to be THE most important egg. Why?

AGplusone: scary what happens when they hatch sometimes ….

BPRAL22169: I seem to recall a short story — Blish? About spherical energy balls.

AGplusone: out comes a Roc

NuclearWasteUSN: I never got that Willis was more important, just that he was ready to be taken in and cherished to grow into an adult

AGplusone: certainly not more important than Lummox

DavidWrightSr: There was something about his real name wasn’t there?

NuclearWasteUSN: I would have to pull the book out

AGplusone: wasn’t he a special breeding project too?

BPRAL22169: Has anyone read the colored Mars books — Blue mars, Green Mars, Gold Mars with Pink Polka Dots? SAcademy: Most bouncers didn’t make it to adulthood.

DenvToday: Really Nuc? I could be wrong. I always had the impression that Willis was uniquely important to the Martians. Guess I could be wrong.

BPRAL22169: Kim Stanley Robinson?

AGplusone: one and one-half of ’em …. before I gave up

AGplusone: do they ever find Martians?

BPRAL22169: Any interesting aliens in them?

AGplusone: Not a one

AGplusone: nor interesting humans, either

NuclearWasteUSN: Denv, I could be wrong as well, but I saw no evidence for Willis being truly special.

DenvToday: I’ll have to go back and reread the book.

BPRAL22169: I think one of the martians said Willis was special in some way but didn’t specify.

DenvToday: Have we ever decided if Doc McRae was Lazarus?

NuclearWasteUSN: One more to add to the read pile

AGplusone: No, there was. The adults were really p.o.’d when they found out about the deal to sell him to the zoo. I think it’s mentioned that Willis was bred specially … maybe one of a class, but special.

NuclearWasteUSN: Doc? Maybe a Howard, but not Lazarus

BPRAL22169: I think ultimately we couldn’t make the dates match up for him to be Lazarus Long — he was supposed to be on Venus when the mars revolt took place.

DenvToday: Again…tantalizingly ambiguous. I love it.

AGplusone: He probably forged the records, but he’s not Laz. “Smitty” is Laz, cosmetic age much younger and weaseling his way into the PTB structure.

AGplusone: Collecting little favors

DenvToday: hmmm…never considered that.

NuclearWasteUSN: So we know how we describe the different Martians…

AGplusone: that’s because you’re not as bizarre as I am … I just think Smitty is far far too crafty ….

NuclearWasteUSN: How about we think about what makes a good Martian for us for Saturday?

AGplusone: ‘kay

AGplusone: other than a ‘dead one’?

NuclearWasteUSN: Too much early Wells exposure

AGplusone: What happened to the Martians by the time Podkayne shows up.

NuclearWasteUSN: Are they all gone, or just not near her?

AGplusone: no real mention

NuclearWasteUSN: Or is Poddy a different timeline?

BPRAL22169: IIRC there were a few individuals around, but the civilization was dead and gone.

BPRAL22169: Different timeline, I think.

AGplusone: just that daddy keeps studying their archeology …

AGplusone: died off faster than the injun’s after smallpox, din’ they? SAcademy: I’d vote for a different time line.

BPRAL22169: I forgot to ask when I came in — did everybody read Rainbow Mars?

NuclearWasteUSN: Jane could not lay hands on it yet’

AGplusone: About 60% but I cheated and jumped ahead …

DenvToday: I will have by Saturday

AGplusone: need that time chart in the end

BPRAL22169: I picked up my copy on a remainder table last year.

AGplusone: and so will I …

NuclearWasteUSN: The wife probably got mine the same place.

AGplusone: also bought three Burroughs and a new copy of Chronicles

BPRAL22169: It’s not all one story — about 60% is the novella, and the rest is essays etc.

NuclearWasteUSN: She picks up books and squirrels them away to give me at special moments.

NuclearWasteUSN: She lurks the group for ideas on new ones

AGplusone: Well, really they are short stories about the main character, prequels

BPRAL22169: I think Niven is about to come ou twith another ringworld novel.

AGplusone: earlier trips

DenvToday: No kidding? Something to look forward to.

BPRAL22169: I think there was a whole book of Svetz stories — all highly comical.

AGplusone: great!

BPRAL22169: Something about a Flying Horse?

NuclearWasteUSN: Before the Puppeteers messed the ring up?

AGplusone: The comedy is fun

AGplusone: Also loved the parody of NASA like Operation Luna

BPRAL22169: Svetz in Rainbow Mars was much more like Beowulf Schaefer.

BPRAL22169: or Louis Wu

AGplusone: can’t resist: who wu

AGplusone: ?

BPRAL22169: Woo Wu

DenvToday: lol

BPRAL22169: Louis Wu is a lineal descendant of Beowulf Schaefer, and he’s the protagonist of the Ringworld novels.

AGplusone: chugchugchugchug ….

AGplusone: okay, I’ll have to start reading more Niven I guess SAcademy: Chug-a-lug?

AGplusone: wailwoad

BPRAL22169: No, I think that’s Jerry Pournelle… SAcademy: Haven’t played that since college.

AGplusone: what you paint yourself with when you’re sad

NuclearWasteUSN: Never felt like I needed to get that drunk after college

BPRAL22169: Almost everything Niven has written is worth reading. I don’t find his fantasies all that interesting, mostly.

BPRAL22169: But that’s personal taste.

BPRAL22169: His theory of mana as a natural resource has virtually taken over fantasy.

NuclearWasteUSN: What did you think of Rainbow Mars?

AGplusone: the humor is appearing … the surfer going by the twin towers in WLA will live with me forever

AGplusone: appealling

BPRAL22169: A page turner.

NuclearWasteUSN: WLA?

BPRAL22169: I was very glad to see he had gotten back his storytelling sense.

BPRAL22169: The Endless Road just went on and on with yardgoods and too little story.

AGplusone: West Los Angeles, Century City has those two big towers

NuclearWasteUSN: I thought so after I finally got into it, but at furst was not impressed

AGplusone: when the tidal wave sweeps the surfer on by

NuclearWasteUSN: Oh, from Lucifer’s Hammer

AGplusone: yes

NuclearWasteUSN: Being from the Valley I always remember more of the San Joaquin scenes

AGplusone: Luc’s Hammer was the last one of his I read … have to go back and pick up some more

BPRAL22169: I think that was a joint production.

NuclearWasteUSN: Well we seem to be fatally off topic at this point, isn’t this when we usually officially end the discussion?

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes Niven and Pournelle

BPRAL22169: The Mote in God’s Eye and Gripping Hand are worth reading.

NuclearWasteUSN: Just like Footfall.

AGplusone: read Mote, quickly once

DenvToday: Anybody ever read King David’s Spaceship? I’ve just started it.

BPRAL22169: Did they do Legacy of Heorot and Beowulf’s Chidlren?

BPRAL22169: Or was that Anderson?

AGplusone: Long time ago, David … loved the humor in it as well …

AGplusone: Hogan? SAcademy: Did any of you know that R. critiqued Mote and they went back and rewrote it?

DenvToday: Pournelle

NuclearWasteUSN: Yes, Ginny, Niven and Pournelle mention somewhere in their nonfiction

BPRAL22169: I discovered that R’s original letter to Niven and Pournelle about Mote has quietly been circulating on the Niven underground.

AGplusone: I think that critique is going to be very important some day … from what I’ve heard about it …

NuclearWasteUSN: I think I saw it is Requiem.

AGplusone: RAH on writing … SAcademy: It had already been sold when they did that.

AGplusone: he seemingly did it so effortlessly SAcademy: Some day, David.

BPRAL22169: 70+ is an effort, no matter what. SAcademy: Don’t believe that it was effortless. One drop of blood for each line.

AGplusone: yes

NuclearWasteUSN: I wonder what wonders would have rsulted if Robert had taken on more editorial duties?

BPRAL22169: No wonder he had to conduct a blood drive…

AGplusone: but look at the flair in the end result …

DenvToday: lol Bill

AGplusone: a character in every juvenile I could identify with when I was a juvenile

BPRAL22169: I think his most important job was editing Heinlein. Nobody else could do that.

NuclearWasteUSN: I have to agree

AGplusone: even Podkayne, Holly, and Puddin’ … didn’t matter how old, what sex, it was their mind, thinking and learning

NuclearWasteUSN: Looking at the Uncut and the cut Stranger it becomes very obvious

DavidWrightSr: Right on Dave!

AGplusone: and applying it

AGplusone: How many of us felt like Libby in “Misfit”?

AGplusone: “Pinkie”

NuclearWasteUSN: Well folks, I hate to leave, but I am in pain and need to go lie down SAcademy: Everyone, I think.

AGplusone: do, quickly, Jim SAcademy: Nite, Jim

BPRAL22169: Medical problem?

NuclearWasteUSN: Just my back

NuclearWasteUSN: Nothing new

DenvToday: Take care Nuc

DavidWrightSr: Night Jim.

BPRAL22169: Treat it like the urge to exercise — lie down until the fit passes. SAcademy: Me. too. Have to be up early tomorrow.

NuclearWasteUSN: Percocet and methocarbomol seem to help SAcademy: Nite, all.

BPRAL22169: Good night, Ginny. Schlaf’ gut. SAcademy: Thanks.

DenvToday: Good night SAcademy has left the room.

NuclearWasteUSN: Night all

NuclearWasteUSN has left the room.

AGplusone: well, I suggest maybe some posts between now and Saturday?

AGplusone: We had a very wide-ranging chat on the subject

DavidWrightSr: I have been meaning to posts the physical descriptions of Weinbaum’s martians, but have been tied up.

DavidWrightSr: Jim asked for them

AGplusone: would help … anyone have a clue about Lewis’s eldils ?

DenvToday: Well, I’m off to bed. Good night all.

DavidWrightSr: See ya

AGplusone: see ya Ran

DenvToday: Take care

DenvToday has left the room.

AGplusone: I’m going to eat now! Good night from New York, David

BPRAL22169: I always thought the Eldila were guardian angels or tutelary spirits — like Gaia.

DavidWrightSr: Night Chet

AGplusone: I’ve never read Lewis

BPRAL22169: That trilogy is well worth it.

AGplusone: Need a good example of his Martians.

DavidWrightSr: I read one when I was about 14 or so. Never re-read it.

AGplusone: Starts with what?

DavidWrightSr: Out of the Silent Planet?

BPRAL22169: They are clustered in the first book, Out of the Silent Planet (earth is the silent planet — our Eldil went silent).

BPRAL22169: When mankind Fell.

AGplusone: Okay … I’ll see if I can find the first … and get a clue

BPRAL22169: It

BPRAL22169: s been quite a while, but I vaguely recall them being described as seal-like.

DavidWrightSr: Listened to all of his ‘Screwtape letters’ in college. In mandatory chapel

AGplusone: I missed that class

BPRAL22169: That’s a great book. Also The Great Divorce and Till We Have Faces.

AGplusone: got full log, Dave?

DavidWrightSr: Got it

BPRAL22169: If you get a chance, when Shadowlands comes to A&E, watch either version; they both have much to recommend them — based on Lewis’ Surprised by Joy.

AGplusone: nite gents

AGplusone: okay

BPRAL22169: Good night, both davids.

DavidWrightSr: Night

BPRAL22169: Have fun.

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log Officially closed at 11:02 P.M.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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