Heinlein Readers Discussion Group Thursday 07-24-2003 9:00 P.M. EDT Heinlein’s Non Fiction

Heinlein Readers Discussion Group

Thursday 07-24-2003 9:00 P.M. EDT

Heinlein’s Non Fiction

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From: “Oscagne”

Subject: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, June 27, 2003 7:03 PM

There is a sentiment which I have seen attributed to Larry Niven: We have a term for those who confuse an author’s views with his characters’, “asshole.” Luckily enough, we have many examples of Robert Heinlein talking in his own voice. In _Expanded Universe_ we have forewards to his then-lesser-known short stories, and we have several short peices related to his “world saving” attempts. In _Requiem_ we have his Guest of Honor speeches. _Take Back Your Government_ and _Tramp Royale_ are two whole books of nothing but the master’s own voice.

So how well did the world saving hold up? How accurate were the predicitons? Looking back as we can into what has been released about the Soviet Union in the Cold War Days, how accurate was his world-view? How do his travel observations from about fifty years ago compare with what we might find in South America or Oz-land today? Did his political suggestions hold water when they were written? Are they useful now?

So, lets talk about it July 24, and 26 and keep alive our custom of talking about Heinlein’s works. David Silver, being as swamped as he is with Heinlein Society tasks, has graciously allowed me to organize a few of the Heinlein Readers Group Chats. Anyone around who hasn’t yet joined us for a Chat is welcome to join us, just see http://heinleinsociety.org/Archives/ReadersGrp/index.html#Info

I’d also welcome any input for future chats, including any authors anybody might want to invite (especially if you already know them, to make invitation less complex). Just email me at oscagne at e v one dot net.

So, everybody take another gander at whatever Heinlein non-fiction you might have, and I’ll see you Thurday July 24 and Saturday July 26 at 8:00 pm.


Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
wanna read a story? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss
or see my goofy website? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm

From: “Oscagne”

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, June 27, 2003 7:09 PM

“Oscagne” wrote in message
news:bdiiis$td4sf$
> There is a sentiment which I have seen attributed to Larry Niven: We have a
> term for those who confuse an author’s views with his characters’,
> “asshole.” Luckily enough, we have many examples of Robert Heinlein talking
> in his own voice. In _Expanded Universe_ we have forewards to his
> then-lesser-known short stories, and we have several short peices related to
> his “world saving” attempts. In _Requiem_ we have his Guest of Honor
> speeches. _Take Back Your Government_ and _Tramp Royale_ are two whole
> books of nothing but the master’s own voice.
>
> So how well did the world saving hold up? How accurate were the
> predicitons? Looking back as we can into what has been released about the
> Soviet Union in the Cold War Days, how accurate was his world-view? How do
> his travel observations from about fifty years ago compare with what we
> might find in South America or Oz-land today? Did his political suggestions
> hold water when they were written? Are they useful now?
>
> So, lets talk about it July 24, and 26 and keep alive our custom of talking
> about Heinlein’s works. David Silver, being as swamped as he is with
> Heinlein Society tasks, has graciously allowed me to organize a few of the
> Heinlein Readers Group Chats. Anyone around who hasn’t yet joined us for a
> Chat is welcome to join us, just see
> http://heinleinsociety.org/Archives/ReadersGrp/index.html#Info .
>
> I’d also welcome any input for future chats, including any authors anybody
> might want to invite (especially if you already know them, to make
> invitation less complex). Just email me at oscagne at e v one dot net.
>
> So, everybody take another gander at whatever Heinlein non-fiction you might
> have, and I’ll see you Thurday July 24 and Saturday July 26 at 8:00 pm.

And like a first-time newbie dumb-ass, I neglected our international siblings. 8:00 pm (1:00 am GMT) refers to U.S. Central Time, please adjust this as appropriate for your local zone.


Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
wanna read a story? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss
or see my goofy website? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm

From: “Murky”

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, June 27, 2003 8:34 PM

Oscagne wrote:

> “Oscagne” wrote in message
> news:bdiiis$td4sf$
>> There is a sentiment which I have seen attributed to Larry Niven:
>> We have a term for those who confuse an author’s views with his
>> characters’, “asshole.” Luckily enough, we have many examples of
>> Robert Heinlein talking in his own voice. In _Expanded Universe_ we
>> have forewards to his then-lesser-known short stories, and we have
>> several short peices related to his “world saving” attempts. In
>> _Requiem_ we have his Guest of Honor speeches. _Take Back Your
>> Government_ and _Tramp Royale_ are two whole books of nothing but
>> the master’s own voice.
>>

Not to mention “Grumbles From the Grave,” a priceless collection of RAH’s correspondence, and a very clear window into what he was thinking when he gave us the work we all enjoy so much.

Thanks for the invite!


Murky
“Unless we fight for proper treatment of history and counter the
nonsense images of McCarthy, no history can be safe from the liberal
noise machine… Bill Clinton will be revered in history books as the
George Washington of his day, who along with patriots Larry Flynt and
James Carville, “saved the Constitution.” He will be honored with a
memorial larger than the Washington Monument (though probably with the
same general design).” – Ann Coulter, “Treason”

From: “Stephanie”

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, June 27, 2003 11:05 PM

>From: “Oscagne”

>I’ll see you Thurday July 24 and Saturday July 26 at 8:00 pm.
>

Dear Sir,

Having missed several chats in recent months, I must ask if we no longer hold the Saturday one at a different hour to better accomodate scheduling? I remember when they were at 5:00 pm EST on Saturdays. I just wished to be sure, so I may hopefully make one or the other (both would be greedy).

Stephanie
http://hometown.aol.com/merfilly27/myhomepage/profile.html
http://hometown.aol.com/musiquelle26/myhomepage/profile.html

From: “Oscagne”

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, June 27, 2003 11:12 PM

“Stephanie” wrote in message
news:
> >From: “Oscagne”
>
> >I’ll see you Thurday July 24 and Saturday July 26 at 8:00 pm.
> >
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> Having missed several chats in recent months, I must ask if we no longer hold
> the Saturday one at a different hour to better accomodate scheduling? I
> remember when they were at 5:00 pm EST on Saturdays. I just wished to be sure,
> so I may hopefully make one or the other (both would be greedy).

I never made many Saturday chats, and had assumed they were at the same time. That makes me the ass. So, please be assured that whatever the previous arrangements were, they are the same. I guess that means 5 pm EST?


Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
wanna read a story? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss
or see my goofy website? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm

From: “David M. Silver”

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, June 27, 2003 11:49 PM

In article ,
“Oscagne” wrote:

> That makes me the ass.

Not at all. You’re working on something that can become very fine again. And thank you for your gracious volunteering. I’ll try to help where I can.

> So, please be assured that whatever the
> previous arrangements were, they are the same. I guess that means 5 pm EST?

That’s the time. It gives the land of Oz a chance at the chats. Ready, Sean? 😉


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: “Sean Kennedy”

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Saturday, June 28, 2003 1:19 AM

David M. Silver wrote:

> In article ,
> “Oscagne” wrote:
>
>
>>That makes me the ass.
>>
>
> Not at all. You’re working on something that can become very fine again.
> And thank you for your gracious volunteering. I’ll try to help where I
> can.
>
>
>>So, please be assured that whatever the
>>previous arrangements were, they are the same. I guess that means 5 pm EST?
>>
>
> That’s the time. It gives the land of Oz a chance at the chats. Ready,
> Sean? 😉

Looking forward to this one, David. Speaking of non-fiction, I will add that also in _Requiem_ (and originally in one of the magazines at the time) is Heinlein’s article on _Shooting Destination Moon_. I mention this because there is a little-known non-fiction piece by Heinlein that also refers to the making of Destination Moon (and many other topics) that is not even mentioned in RAH:ARC. I will expand on this before the chats.

Sean

(???)

From: “David M. Silver”

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Saturday, June 28, 2003 1:27 AM

In article ,
Sean Kennedy wrote:

> I mention
> this because there is a little-known non-fiction piece by Heinlein that
> also refers to the making of Destination Moon (and many other topics)
> that is not even mentioned in RAH:ARC. I will expand on this before the
> chats.

Great! We’ve never iirc even considered a discussion of what it contains above and beyond mere recitals of how to make a technically plausible movie about space exploration. Be fun to read it for content other than putting together a movie, as well as the technical details that were invented, or observed.


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: “BPRAL22169”

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Sunday, June 29, 2003 12:24 AM

Might be a good idea to take a look over the back parts of Jim Gifford’s ARC — there are several sections on nonfiction material in different sizes.

Bill

From: “Oscagne”

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:22 AM

“BPRAL22169” wrote in message
news:
> Might be a good idea to take a look over the back parts of Jim Gifford’s ARC —
> there are several sections on nonfiction material in different sizes.
> Bill
>

That is a good point. We’ll add that to the list.


Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
wanna read a story? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss
or see my goofy website? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm

From: “David M. Silver”

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 3:12 AM

In article ,
“Oscagne” wrote:
>
> So how well did the world saving hold up?

Well, let’s see, in about 1980 he dictated EU’s interstitial paragraphs to Jim Baen, saying, essentially, that after trying to publish, unsuccessfully (except for the one co-published with Laning, his buddy who was still on active duty), non-fiction “world saving” articles in the immediate post World War II period, he’d given up ‘world saving.’

Was that true?

a. Between say, about 1950 and 1980?

b. How ’bout afterwards?

Regardless of your answer to “a” is it the same to “b” or different?

How ’bout some defense of those positions, whatever they are?

Does it make a difference to your answer if you looked at the non-fiction he tried to publish, “saving” the world, unsuccessfully; and then looked for his “high-grading” those topics and his positions into his 1950-80 works?


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: Sean Kennedy

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Sunday, July 06, 2003 9:07 AM

BPRAL22169 wrote:

> Might be a good idea to take a look over the back parts of Jim Gifford’s ARC —
> there are several sections on nonfiction material in different sizes.

The piece of Heinlein non-fiction I alluded to earlier is not mentioned in RAH:ARC, yet I believe it probably should be.

The Fall 1949 edition of “The Fanscient” has a lengthy letter from Heinlein starting on page 32 with the title “Author, Author”. The editor’s intro to the piece ends with:

“Heinlein is now in Hollywood acting as technical director on a new
science-fiction picture based on his story “Rocket Ship Galileo”. As can
be seen, all this adds up to a really crowded schedule. The following,
started at his home in Colorado and finished in Hollywood, tells its own
story and we bring it to you just as it was received from him.”

The letter is about 1500-2000 words, and is begun while he is packing up in Colorado to head to Hollywood. Some interesting points:

Heinlein mentions having just mailed off the “deathless masterpiece”. Any suggestions as to what this may have been? I’m pretty sure I know, but will leave this as a mini-quiz.

Heinlein gives permission to print the letter as is, or edit it into a third-person article. Not surprisingly, the letter is printed “as is”.

He once again says he “usually prefers letters to articles – especially letters with checks in them.”

In vital statistics – “Married, no children as yet.” The words “Married” and “children” are underlined. This hopeful sentiment seems to fit in with the floor plans of his Colorado home including a “nursery”, as seen in a slightly later magazine.

Heinlein lists his “Principal Interests” as: democracy, civil liberties, fiscal theory, rocketry and space travel, epistemology, semantics, the organization of knowledge etc.

He lists his “Principal Aversions” as: communists, communism and other forms of fascism; astrology and other ways to be mush-headed; department stores and the large, strong women who apparently live in them; people who express opinins without data; those fans who regard writers as their property; mere galley slaves; censorship; blue laws; people who don’t vote, etc.

Heinlein lists an extensive range of hobbies, including both “dogs and cats.”

He mentions other authors he has learned from: Will Jenkins, John Campbell, Hank Kuttner, C.L. Moore, L. Ron Hubbard, Doc Smith, A.E. van Vogt, Jack Williamson, Robert Moore Williamson.

He lists his pen names (all except Simon York).

He tells about the Story Contest and “Life Line”.

I’m not sure of his health around this time (1949), but he says he has “to buy mink coats for doctor’s wives at regular intervals.”

He then finishes the letter from Hollywood (15 June). He mentions a number of points about making the movie “Destination Moon”, but these were more fully expanded in his article “Shooting ‘Destination Moon'”

With regard to fans he writes: “Fandom attracts a raucous minority of twerps – sadly true! – but it also attracts a vast majority of interesting, civilized, gentle people.”

The editor provides a bibliography with the interesting (and somewhat erroneous) information:

‘Heinlein’s entire “future history” series will be published by Shasta Publishers in a set of five uniform volumes under the following titles: “The Man Who Sold the Moon”, “The Green Hills of Earth”, “If this Goes On”, “Methuselah’s Children” and “The Endless Frontier”.’

“The Endless Frontier”??? Anyone? Other comments?

Sean
(…)

From: Combat Wombat (was Andrew)

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Sunday, July 06, 2003 9:28 AM

“Sean Kennedy” wrote in message
news:
>

 

> The editor provides a bibliography with the interesting (and somewhat
> erroneous) information:
>
> ‘Heinlein’s entire “future history” series will be published by Shasta
> Publishers in a set of five uniform volumes under the following titles:
> “The Man Who Sold the Moon”, “The Green Hills of Earth”, “If this Goes
> On”, “Methuselah’s Children” and “The Endless Frontier”.’
>
> “The Endless Frontier”??? Anyone? Other comments?
>
>

Sean, perhaps “Beyond this Horizon” ?

Purely based on the timings, and could have been a typo (or hopeful editor’s renaming) of this one.

Looking at the list provided, TEfL would have been a good fit … but a wee bit too early, unless that editor was prescient!

Combat Wombat

From: Hairy Antelope

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Sunday, July 06, 2003 1:14 PM

On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 10:30:06 -0500, you , “Oscagne”, wrote:

>his attitude to dogs? Did Ginny talk him into it? Or are dog-people and
cat-people mutually exclusive? Complimentary?

Not in this household ….. although the cat does get more priviledges, mainly, I suppose, ‘cos she’s much more cuddly .. (And she’s close to a Feline Octagenarian now, so she warrants a bit of spoiling )


]- “Lack of planning on your part does not
]- constitute an emergency on my part”
]-
———————————————————————-
To reply by e-mail, insert the phrase “I’m a Gnu” in the subject line
———————————————————————-

From: Howard Berkowitz

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Sunday, July 06, 2003 7:09 PM

In article , “Oscagne”
wrote:

>
> This is the only reference (I think) I’ve ever seen that he had a dog.
> It
> might be pretty self-evident that Heinlein was a cat-person, but what was
> his attitude to dogs? Did Ginny talk him into it? Or are dog-people
> and
> cat-people mutually exclusive? Complimentary? Does anyone know if Ginny
> was a dog-person?

I didn’t have cats until well into my thirties, and rather disliked them when I was younger. My experience now is that if one really interacts with a cat, they can be as affectionate and loyal as dogs, although lower maintenance. I’ve also known aloof dogs that want to be worshipped.

I’d like a large dog, but it would be difficult for me to care for it adequately. Nevertheless, I do get the morning greeting of a thorough face licking, in which I find the important difference that a dog’s tongue is much gentler than a cat’s.

From: David M. Silver

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 7:47 PM

In article ,
“Oscagne” wrote:

> This is the only reference (I think) I’ve ever seen that he had a dog.

Heinlein refers to a dog he once had in the introductory note to the Boy Scout story “Tenderfoot in Space,” first published in Boy’s Life, but then collected posthumously in _New Collected Works by Robert A. Heinlein: Requiem and Tributes to the Grand Master (Edited by Yoji Kondo), TOR 1992.

There is a dog in that story. His name is Nixie. Heinlein’s handwritten introduction was contained on the copy that Virginia provided Dr. Kondo. It contained the following:

” * * * * *
“Nixie is (of course) my own dog. But in 1919, when I was 12 and a
Scout, he had to leave me — a streetcar hit him.
“If this universe has any reasonable teleology whatever (a point on
which I am unsure), then there is _some_ provision for Nixies in it.”


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: “Hairy Antelope”

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:03 AM

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 19:09:23 -0400, you , Howard Berkowitz, wrote:

>I’d like a large dog, but it would be difficult for me to care for it
>adequately. Nevertheless, I do get the morning greeting of a thorough

Howard, excuse the question, but are you imobilised in some way ?? I don’t recall anything like that being mentioned, or have I just missed something along the way …

Only reason I ask is that I am in no way capable of walking dogs for exercise, but by throwing balls and other doggy toys I can still exercise them pretty well ….I also throw toys downstairs and let the dogs run up and down after them …. several rounds of that and their tongues hang … at which point the small dog starts trying to catch the big one’s tongue …. someday he’s going to succeed, and I figure theres going to be a bit of trouble when that day comes …

>face licking, in which I find the important difference that a dog’s
>tongue is much gentler than a cat’s.

Yeah, but there’s so much *more* of the average doggy tongue, and it’s so much wetter !!!


]- “Lack of planning on your part does not
]- constitute an emergency on my part”
]-
———————————————————————-
To reply by e-mail, insert the phrase “I’m a Gnu” in the subject line
———————————————————————-

From: “Howard Berkowitz”

Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:53 AM

In article , Hairy Antelope
wrote:

> On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 19:09:23 -0400, you , Howard Berkowitz
> , wrote:
>
> >I’d like a large dog, but it would be difficult for me to care for it
> >adequately. Nevertheless, I do get the morning greeting of a thorough
>
> Howard, excuse the question, but are you imobilised in some way ?? I
> don’t recall anything like that being mentioned, or have I just missed
> something along the way …
>

I do have some mobility problems, but I was mostly thinking of the issue of business travel.

> Only reason I ask is that I am in no way capable of walking dogs for
> exercise, but by throwing balls and other doggy toys I can still
> exercise them pretty well ….I also throw toys downstairs and let the
> dogs run up and down after them …. several rounds of that and their
> tongues hang … at which point the small dog starts trying to catch
> the big one’s tongue …. someday he’s going to succeed, and I figure
> theres going to be a bit of trouble when that day comes …

Now, convincing Mr. Clark that he _wants_ to exercise is another matter. I have switched him to the lower-calorie cat food and there are, indeed, early suggestions he may have a waist.

>
> >face licking, in which I find the important difference that a dog’s
> >tongue is much gentler than a cat’s.
>
> Yeah, but there’s so much *more* of the average doggy tongue, and it’s
> so much wetter !!!
>

> —
> ]- “Lack of planning on your part does not
> ]- constitute an emergency on my part”
> ]-
> ———————————————————————-
> To reply by e-mail, insert the phrase “I’m a Gnu” in the subject line
> ———————————————————————-

From: Oscagne

Subject: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Monday, July 21, 2003 9:09 PM

Just as a reminder: This Thursday and Saturday, 8pm and 5pm (respectively) U.S. Central time.

Suggested reading:

Grumbles From the Grave

Expanded Universe

Tramp Royale

Requiem

Take Back Your Government

any, all, some, parts, whatever. This is not going to be a _very_ structured chat.

Also, David Silver. Get back to me if you can, I emailed you but don’t know if it got through.


Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
wanna read a story? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss
or see my goofy website? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm

From: David M. Silver

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:04 AM

In article ,
“Oscagne” wrote:

> Just as a reminder: This Thursday and Saturday, 8pm and 5pm (respectively)
> U.S. Central time.
>
> Suggested reading:
> Grumbles From the Grave
> Expanded Universe
> Tramp Royale
> Requiem
> Take Back Your Government
>
> any, all, some, parts, whatever. This is not going to be a _very_
> structured chat.
>
> Also, David Silver . Get back to me if you can, I emailed you but
> don’t know if it got through.
>
> —
> Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
> wanna read a story? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss
> or see my goofy website? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm
>
>

Didn’t get through. What may I do?


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

\

From: Oscagne

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 6:25 AM

“David M. Silver” wrote in message
news:
> In article ,
> “Oscagne” wrote:
>
> > Just as a reminder: This Thursday and Saturday, 8pm and 5pm (respectively)
> > U.S. Central time.
> >
> > Suggested reading:
> > Grumbles From the Grave
> > Expanded Universe
> > Tramp Royale
> > Requiem
> > Take Back Your Government
> >
> > any, all, some, parts, whatever. This is not going to be a _very_
> > structured chat.
> >
> > Also, David Silver . Get back to me if you can, I emailed you but
> > don’t know if it got through.
> >
> > —
> > Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
> > wanna read a story? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss
> > or see my goofy website? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm
> >
> >
>
> Didn’t get through. What may I do?

I’ll c/p it:

David,

Eric Flint should be available at this email: .]

If you want background for the invite email, you can see his Baen free library intro here http://www.baen.com/library/ .

Or, if you just want to send me a sample or a previous invite I’ll invite him and/or track him down.

Thanks,

Joe
(Oscagne)

From: David M. Silver

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 7:56 AM

In article ,
“Oscagne” wrote:

>
> Eric Flint should be available at this email: .]
>
> If you want background for the invite email, you can see his Baen free
> library intro here http://www.baen.com/library/ .
>
> Or, if you just want to send me a sample or a previous invite I’ll invite
> him and/or track him down.

Okay, I’ll send you a sample. You know his works and what to suggest in the meeting before he comes.

Meanwhile, since we’re coming up on Thursday and I just finished reading it, why don’t we talk a little about Expanded Universe?

There’s a subtitle in “The Happy Days Ahead,” entitled “Gloom, Woe, and Disaster.”

Heinlein claimed he saw, in 1979, or whenever, certain “pathological trends” that show our culture headed down the “chute to self-distruction.”

He noted one major tread in the decline of education: the degrees are cheapened at all levels, university, junior colleges, and secondary and elementary education. How do you repair a system in which, now, not the two he cited, but three, going on four, generations of pre-college educators are ignorant and uneducated?

Is popular in one quarter to claim that privatization, e.g., vouchers will solve everything, just as privation most certainly solved the savings and loan, railroad, airlines, energy and you-name-it. Did Heinlein suggest that, however?

Well, if you look uncritically at The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, you might say he did. MIaHM does away, for the purposes of argument, with everything, including public education, to establish the ideal libertarian society — then corrupts that ideal before the end of the book — forget about what comes in less than a couple generations in Cat. Not even the air is free.

OTOH, I could argue that in 1947 when he wrote Rocket Ship Gallileo, he demonstrated an ideal of public education we never attained — but what he thought the model might become: the true ‘comprehensive’ secondary public school — not the hairbrained thing comprehensive education became in the hands of the undereducated and unqualified academic teaching establishment — a sandbox for adults to shovel the children around in to satisify their own views of social inadequacies. I could also demonstrate by citing Have Space Suit — Will Travel, that nothing is insurmountable to an interested, motivated student and parents who do pay attention. Not even hairbrained spinsters who think families are democracies, with children having equal votes.

Some say it’s the union’s fault. Is it? I could, with equal authority, maintain it’s the fault of lawmakers: those idiots that think if they pass a comprehensive set of standards, all will be well in a couple of years. It’s the argument made in Friday, by one of the terrorist groups: just tell the PTB that they’re not meeting the standards, and keep killing them until they do. No wonder no one with half a brain wants to teach in public education.

What’s the real problem? How about the silly notion that everyone must have a degree? What did Heinlein write after EU? Friday? What did the California Confederation do about degrees in Friday? D’oh!

What’s the solution? Let’s leave that for a second or so.

The next big problem in Gloom, Woe and Disaster he sez is the Decline of Patriotism and in the Quality of Our Armed Forces:

Bear in mind, however, that in 1979 there was a serious morale problem. Much of what he cites as may have been overcome. We’ll see, now that we’re once again in a guerrilla warfare situation — the long, hard, haul. You do know we’ve won a few guerrilla wars, don’t you? Maybe if I criticize the leadership I can keep from calling it by ‘the shrub’ for the purposes of this exercise — or we can pretend I haven’t in the past, and we can stay on topic — is there something fundamentally wrong today with our military and Patriotism in our youth?

I happen to believe our military knows exactly how and how not to fight a guerrilla war. It knew how in Viet Nam. It just wasn’t allowed to; and I’m not talking about Samars, or Sand Creeks, or Wounded Knees, either. God forbid we ever see another My Lai.

Then, the third thing: Inflation! Heinlein had a lot to say about the rise in National Debt. He said our national debt would never be paid. It was just a matter of time before the deluge: Makers, Takers and Fakers.

What, if anything, is the solution to that? Hang the Congress by the nearest lampost? Or is there something else available?

Next, the Age of Unreason! He lists ten items:

a. I-Ching
b. Back-to-nature cults
c. the collapse of basic education (see above)
d. the respect granted worthless academia intent on naval gazing
e. “experts” on nuclear power
f. “experts” on ecology
g. people who watch television and get their opinions from it
h. people who simply watch television several hours a day
i. the return of ‘creationism’ — equal time for the great mumbo-jumbo in the sky
j. the return of witchcraft

Finally, then, there’s the cancerous growth in government, coupled of course with inflation, and see above.

So, then, following this litany, there’s “Over the Rainbow”

What do you think about the solutions he poses for just a few of these problems?

Anyone think? Anyone think there’s a solution or two in “Over the Rainbow,” or any of the works that followed Expanded Universe? Short of going back and starting over again with Herbert Hoover in office?

Have we done anything right since Hoovervilles? What do you think Heinlein thought?

There’s a lot to talk about in just this one essay, and the one fiction about the lady who played in Star Trek.

Be nice to have some replies before Thursday, when the chat starts …


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: at work

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 9:15 AM

“David M. Silver” wrote in message
news:
> Meanwhile, since we’re coming up on Thursday and I just finished reading
> it, why don’t we talk a little about Expanded Universe?
>
> There’s a subtitle in “The Happy Days Ahead,” entitled “Gloom, Woe, and
> Disaster.”
>
> Heinlein claimed he saw, in 1979, or whenever, certain “pathological
> trends” that show our culture headed down the “chute to
> self-distruction.”
>
> He noted one major tread in the decline of education: the degrees are
> cheapened at all levels, university, junior colleges, and secondary and
> elementary education. How do you repair a system in which, now, not the
> two he cited, but three, going on four, generations of pre-college
> educators are ignorant and uneducated?
>
> Is popular in one quarter to claim that privatization, e.g., vouchers
> will solve everything, just as privation most certainly solved the
> savings and loan, railroad, airlines, energy and you-name-it. Did
> Heinlein suggest that, however?
>
> Well, if you look uncritically at The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, you
> might say he did. MIaHM does away, for the purposes of argument, with
> everything, including public education, to establish the ideal
> libertarian society — then corrupts that ideal before the end of the
> book — forget about what comes in less than a couple generations in
> Cat. Not even the air is free.

It doesn’t look to me like Moon repudiates the ideas of libertarianism. The trouble that comes in Moon and later in Cat occurr not because of the system that Prof tried to put in place, but by the eventual rejection of the system by the inhabitants. They pay lip service to TANSTAAFL, but they still create unecesary government (Bozell’s militia, I think… don’t have the book in front of me), create superfluous tax schemes, let bullies continue bullying (the police in Cat), they still fall right back into the governemental template they learned at their mothers’ knees (even though Prof offeres them several creative alternatives), and the yammerheads and slack-asses take over. The system collapses because it gets perverted in the execution, not because the system is flawed. I don’t think Heinlein was making a statement about the system, he was making a statement about people.

> OTOH, I could argue that in 1947 when he wrote Rocket Ship Gallileo, he
> demonstrated an ideal of public education we never attained — but what
> he thought the model might become: the true ‘comprehensive’ secondary
> public school — not the hairbrained thing comprehensive education
> became in the hands of the undereducated and unqualified academic
> teaching establishment — a sandbox for adults to shovel the children
> around in to satisify their own views of social inadequacies. I could
> also demonstrate by citing Have Space Suit — Will Travel, that nothing
> is insurmountable to an interested, motivated student and parents who do
> pay attention. Not even hairbrained spinsters who think families are
> democracies, with children having equal votes.
>
> Some say it’s the union’s fault. Is it? I could, with equal authority,
> maintain it’s the fault of lawmakers: those idiots that think if they
> pass a comprehensive set of standards, all will be well in a couple of
> years. It’s the argument made in Friday, by one of the terrorist groups:
> just tell the PTB that they’re not meeting the standards, and keep
> killing them until they do. No wonder no one with half a brain wants to
> teach in public education.

The argument could be made that if you want some purpose to succeed you have to set it up in some way that there is a financial reward that goes along with its success. I don’t think we really have this right now. Teachers teach because they want to make the world a better place: altruism, not because they get rich doing it. But how many human endevors have succeeded without offering that finiancial incentive? I’d say that any system that relies for its existence on human altruism is doomed to failure. Take Socialism as an example: I mean good ol’ time Marxian Socialism… “from each according to ability to each according to need”. That is a great altruistic sentiment, but it assumes that nobody with ability will be lazy or greedy. So instead of the Marxian utopia, you get Stalinist Communism. This is a concept I learned from Heinlein, though I don’t know if it originated with him: when you set things up to obtain the glorious impossible, you will instead get the disastrous possible. Any concept that _must_ be successful _must_ take the base, greedy, _evil_ habits of humans into account, not just “outlaw” base, greedy, and evil habits. Cynical? Yup.

> What’s the real problem? How about the silly notion that everyone must
> have a degree? What did Heinlein write after EU? Friday? What did the
> California Confederation do about degrees in Friday? D’oh!
>
> What’s the solution? Let’s leave that for a second or so.
>
> The next big problem in Gloom, Woe and Disaster he sez is the Decline of
> Patriotism and in the Quality of Our Armed Forces:

This problem may have been solved or at least aleviated, ironically, by an enemy that wants to destroy us. Much of the patriotism since 9/11 has faded, but there is still a core number of patriots who are conspicuously visible (at least I see them) on a daily basis.

> Bear in mind, however, that in 1979 there was a serious morale problem.
> Much of what he cites as may have been overcome. We’ll see, now that
> we’re once again in a guerrilla warfare situation — the long, hard,
> haul. You do know we’ve won a few guerrilla wars, don’t you? Maybe if I
> criticize the leadership I can keep from calling it by ‘the shrub’ for
> the purposes of this exercise — or we can pretend I haven’t in the
> past, and we can stay on topic — is there something fundamentally wrong
> today with our military and Patriotism in our youth?
>
> I happen to believe our military knows exactly how and how not to fight
> a guerrilla war. It knew how in Viet Nam. It just wasn’t allowed to; and
> I’m not talking about Samars, or Sand Creeks, or Wounded Knees, either.
> God forbid we ever see another My Lai.

Doesn’t the Marine Corps have a manual just for this? They claim to have “won” the guerrilla conflicts in the bananna republics early last century (that’s where they learned the lessons they put in the manual), but I haven’t studied those conflicts. Were the outcomes there positive?

> Then, the third thing: Inflation! Heinlein had a lot to say about the
> rise in National Debt. He said our national debt would never be paid. It
> was just a matter of time before the deluge: Makers, Takers and Fakers.

Weren’t people complaining about Deflation a couple-three years ago? I know there were some concerns, but I dismissed them at the time as more Chicken Little wailing — just like the wailing about Inflation.

We could just go back on the gold standard? *grin*

> What, if anything, is the solution to that? Hang the Congress by the
> nearest lampost? Or is there something else available?
>
> Next, the Age of Unreason! He lists ten items:
> a. I-Ching
> b. Back-to-nature cults
> c. the collapse of basic education (see above)
> d. the respect granted worthless academia intent on naval gazing
> e. “experts” on nuclear power
> f. “experts” on ecology
> g. people who watch television and get their opinions from it
> h. people who simply watch television several hours a day
> i. the return of ‘creationism’ — equal time for the great mumbo-jumbo in the sky
> j. the return of witchcraft
>
> Finally, then, there’s the cancerous growth in government, coupled of
> course with inflation, and see above.
>
> So, then, following this litany, there’s
> “Over the Rainbow
>
> What do you think about the solutions he poses for just a few of these
> problems?

One thing that struck me is the real lack of nuclear power plant incidents since that book was published. The peice assumes that there are numerous accidents and incidents at nuke plants, so much so that the new President has to address the problem by basically putting the Navy in charge of them. Yet, aside from environmentalist complaining, there hasn’t really been any such rash of nuke plant incidents. I think this is another non-problem that people bring up from time to time because they either 1) need some cause to rally behind to maintain their power, or 2) need some cause to rally behind so that they can see themselves as a vital part of humanity and not just another nameless cog.

> Anyone think? Anyone think there’s a solution or two in “Over the
> Rainbow,” or any of the works that followed Expanded Universe? Short of
> going back and starting over again with Herbert Hoover in office?
>
> Have we done anything right since Hoovervilles? What do you think
> Heinlein thought?
>
> There’s a lot to talk about in just this one essay, and the one fiction
> about the lady who played in Star Trek.

You might keep in mind that the new (successful and laudable?) president basically uses the approach that is later ridiculed in Friday: “just tell the PTB that they’re not meeting the standards, and keep. . . ” firing “. . . them until they do.”

> Be nice to have some replies before Thursday, when the chat starts …

The general lack of interest has me sweating. Probably my fault for not being coming up with a thought-provoking post such as your, David.


Oscagne

From: djinn

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:04 PM

“at work” wrote in
news::

>
snip

Are you guys inviting Flint to the chat?

Check http://www.ericflint.net/reacheric.htm for ways to get ahold of him.


Better than a thousand hollow words
Is one word which brings peace Dhammapada, 8.1

From: at work

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:26 PM

“djinn” wrote in message
news:Xns93C0666D64428mmii@68.6.19.6…
> “at work” wrote in
> news::
>
> >
> snip
>
> Are you guys inviting Flint to the chat?

Not the one this Thursday or Saturday, but one down the road.

> Check
> http://www.ericflint.net/reacheric.htm
> for ways to get ahold of him.

Thank you.


Oscagne

From: “David M. Silver”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 2:53 AM

In article ,
“at work” wrote:

> “David M. Silver” wrote in message
> news:
> > Meanwhile, since we’re coming up on Thursday and I just finished reading
> > it, why don’t we talk a little about Expanded Universe?
> >
> > There’s a subtitle in “The Happy Days Ahead,” entitled “Gloom, Woe, and
> > Disaster.”
> >
> > Heinlein claimed he saw, in 1979, or whenever, certain “pathological
> > trends” that show our culture headed down the “chute to
> > self-distruction.”
> >
> > He noted one major tread in the decline of education: the degrees are
> > cheapened at all levels, university, junior colleges, and secondary and
> > elementary education. How do you repair a system in which, now, not the
> > two he cited, but three, going on four, generations of pre-college
> > educators are ignorant and uneducated?
> >
> > Is popular in one quarter to claim that privatization, e.g., vouchers
> > will solve everything, just as privation most certainly solved the
> > savings and loan, railroad, airlines, energy and you-name-it. Did
> > Heinlein suggest that, however?
> >
> > Well, if you look uncritically at The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, you
> > might say he did. MIaHM does away, for the purposes of argument, with
> > everything, including public education, to establish the ideal
> > libertarian society — then corrupts that ideal before the end of the
> > book — forget about what comes in less than a couple generations in
> > Cat. Not even the air is free.
>
> It doesn’t look to me like Moon repudiates the ideas of libertarianism.

It’s arguable, either way, depending on how seriously you take Heinlein’s sock-puppets: especially Bernardon de la Paz, as dangerous as any Uday Hussein, if you look at him as I have. Frex, the last time I went “mouching,” several months back. But let’s pass that point by, since it is simply arguable. The “play” was to create a near-perfect libertarian society, then force it to ‘govern’ itself and watch the “makers, takers, and fakers” fight; and, inevitably, the takers and fakers take over. Mannie, the Everyman maker, is thinking of heading “out” by the end, as all those have done who have gone before. It occurs to me that Fennimore Cooper’s _The Prarie_ had something to it, with old Dan’l Boone figuratively ‘sailing beyond the sunset’ on those oceans of grass — a theme Heinlein would forever return to, obviously.

[snippage]

> I don’t think Heinlein was
> making a statement about the system, he was making a statement about people.

Makers, takers, fakers, forever more.

>
[snip myself]
> >
> > Some say it’s the union’s fault. Is it? I could, with equal authority,
> > maintain it’s the fault of lawmakers: those idiots that think if they
> > pass a comprehensive set of standards, all will be well in a couple of
> > years. It’s the argument made in Friday, by one of the terrorist groups:
> > just tell the PTB that they’re not meeting the standards, and keep
> > killing them until they do. No wonder no one with half a brain wants to
> > teach in public education.
>
> The argument could be made that if you want some purpose to succeed you have
> to set it up in some way that there is a financial reward that goes along
> with its success. I don’t think we really have this right now. Teachers
> teach because they want to make the world a better place: altruism, not
> because they get rich doing it.

I agree we’ve made it harder than it should be. Some say they teach because of altruism. Some who say that speak truth. Some who keep their mouths shut and soldier also do so because of altruism. I’m downright cynical about the numbers, however.

> But how many human endevors have succeeded
> without offering that finiancial incentive?

You’ll have to ask the Jesuits about that: they’d probably have a well-informed opinion: me, I can’t think of many. For myself, in my own profession, I know only a few who’ve survived a full career acting on Thurgood Marshall’s expressed motivation; and damned few who’ve lasted long without a great deal of luck and success. It seems to me there’s not a great deal of success, year-after-year, in teaching for a great many. We celebrate the Thurgood Marshalls, few that they are, and forget about ones like Tom Hunt, frex, a fine civil-rights attorney, who did wonderful things for about twenty years, always living hand to mouth, always seeking to strive and not to yield, but finally succumbed to frustration, poverty, and was disbarred in disgrace. I suspect teachers have as many stories as I about as many burnt out Mr. Chipses.

I’ll never forget the portrait drawn in Blackboard Jungle, the novel, made into a movie with Glenn Ford, in the early 1950s, in which a minor character, the ‘old teacher,’ tells the Ford character that the role of schools was to keep the garbage off the streets, and the role of teachers was to sit on the lid of the garbage cans.

> I’d say that any system that
> relies for its existence on human altruism is doomed to failure. Take
> Socialism as an example: I mean good ol’ time Marxian Socialism… “from
> each according to ability to each according to need”. That is a great
> altruistic sentiment, but it assumes that nobody with ability will be lazy
> or greedy. So instead of the Marxian utopia, you get Stalinist Communism.
> This is a concept I learned from Heinlein, though I don’t know if it
> originated with him: when you set things up to obtain the glorious
> impossible, you will instead get the disastrous possible. Any concept that
> _must_ be successful _must_ take the base, greedy, _evil_ habits of humans
> into account, not just “outlaw” base, greedy, and evil habits. Cynical?
> Yup.
>

So it’s rewards to the teachers? Is there anything besides money that you give them?

> > What’s the real problem? How about the silly notion that everyone must
> > have a degree? What did Heinlein write after EU? Friday? What did the
> > California Confederation do about degrees in Friday? D’oh!
> >

What about that point? Why do most of us need college degrees? Did it matter whether or not I had a college degree when I entered my profession? For that matter, why even a high school degree? What do they signify? What need do they serve today? Is there something better that might do? What makes the glorified babysitting service we maintain (in many cases today until the baby is nearly thirty, or more) necessary? It’s plainly not education that most obtain in it.

> > What’s the solution? Let’s leave that for a second or so.
> >
> > The next big problem in Gloom, Woe and Disaster he sez is the Decline of
> > Patriotism and in the Quality of Our Armed Forces:
>
> This problem may have been solved or at least aleviated, ironically, by an
> enemy that wants to destroy us. Much of the patriotism since 9/11 has
> faded, but there is still a core number of patriots who are conspicuously
> visible (at least I see them) on a daily basis.
>

Yeah, well, I’m not going there — you know my views why; and that would take us off-topic.

But I agree, the importance is that somehow patriotism survives and the major importance is it survives despite jingoism and despite cynicism about the ‘system.’

> > Bear in mind, however, that in 1979 there was a serious morale problem.
> > Much of what he cites as may have been overcome. We’ll see, now that
> > we’re once again in a guerrilla warfare situation — the long, hard,
> > haul. You do know we’ve won a few guerrilla wars, don’t you? Maybe if I
> > criticize the leadership I can keep from calling it by ‘the shrub’ for
> > the purposes of this exercise — or we can pretend I haven’t in the
> > past, and we can stay on topic — is there something fundamentally wrong
> > today with our military and Patriotism in our youth?
> >
> > I happen to believe our military knows exactly how and how not to fight
> > a guerrilla war. It knew how in Viet Nam. It just wasn’t allowed to; and
> > I’m not talking about Samars, or Sand Creeks, or Wounded Knees, either.
> > God forbid we ever see another My Lai.
>
> Doesn’t the Marine Corps have a manual just for this? They claim to have
> “won” the guerrilla conflicts in the bananna republics early last century
> (that’s where they learned the lessons they put in the manual), but I
> haven’t studied those conflicts. Were the outcomes there positive?
>

I’ve never seen the Marines’ manual — I suppose they do; but I’ve got a pretty good idea who initially developed the dogma in it; and the first guerrilla conflict he fought wasn’t in the banana republics — it was on Samar, in the Philippines where the ‘old Army of Indian fighters’ tried to turn him into a scapegoat for their atrocities. He survived, acquitted by the courts martial for 18 counts of murder they put him through; and the Marines put in charge of training and, later, set him to command some of the banana war efforts. His name was Littleton Waller Tazewell Waller, late Major General, USMC, “Stand, gentlemen. He served on Samar!” Look him up. Try under “the Butcher of Samar,” and watch out for the slovenly trash they deem acceptable historical research these days in academia. Some day I’m going to finish my novel about him. A farily good account, generally, of the supression of the Philippines, the first “little brown brother,” as Oscar Gordon calls them, with intent aforethought, circa 1899-1902 (heh! it went on a while longer, but Teddy’s sense of PR declared what followed mere supression of Moro “bandits”) is a book titled Schoolbooks and Krags : The United States Army in the Philippines, 1898-1902 by John M. Gates Greenwood Publishing Group; (April 1973) ISBN: 0837158184. It’s out of print, but you can find it on albris, etc. It’s well worth reading. I’ve an ulterior motive in dragging out that title. See infra.

> > Then, the third thing: Inflation! Heinlein had a lot to say about the
> > rise in National Debt. He said our national debt would never be paid. It
> > was just a matter of time before the deluge: Makers, Takers and Fakers.
>
> Weren’t people complaining about Deflation a couple-three years ago? I know
> there were some concerns, but I dismissed them at the time as more Chicken
> Little wailing — just like the wailing about Inflation.
>

Yeah, but what about what Heinlein writes in “Gloom, Woe, and Disaster.” I’ll help you out, pp. 541-44, the Trade Edition of EU, and see also, especially, the charts and following commentary on 553 ff.

> We could just go back on the gold standard? *grin*

I suppose, so long as something better wasn’t available or possible. Appropo of nothing whatsoever, did you ever read the so-called “social credit” theory?

>
> > What, if anything, is the solution to that? Hang the Congress by the
> > nearest lampost? Or is there something else available?
> >
> > Next, the Age of Unreason! He lists ten items:
> > a. I-Ching
> > b. Back-to-nature cults
> > c. the collapse of basic education (see above)
> > d. the respect granted worthless academia intent on naval gazing
> > e. “experts” on nuclear power
> > f. “experts” on ecology
> > g. people who watch television and get their opinions from it
> > h. people who simply watch television several hours a day
> > i. the return of ‘creationism’ — equal time for the great mumbo-jumbo in the sky
> > j. the return of witchcraft
> >
> > Finally, then, there’s the cancerous growth in government, coupled of
> > course with inflation, and see above.
> >
> > So, then, following this litany, there’s
> > “Over the Rainbow
> >
> > What do you think about the solutions he poses for just a few of these
> > problems?
>
> One thing that struck me is the real lack of nuclear power plant incidents
> since that book was published. The piece assumes that there are numerous
> accidents and incidents at nuke plants, so much so that the new President
> has to address the problem by basically putting the Navy in charge of them.
> Yet, aside from environmentalist complaining, there hasn’t really been any
> such rash of nuke plant incidents.

I agree. Old Hyman Rickover (portrayed in “Over the Rainbow”) probably had a hand in that (and maybe even the peanut farmer who worked for him and wound up his boss years later).

> I think this is another non-problem that
> people bring up from time to time because they either 1) need some cause to
> rally behind to maintain their power, or 2) need some cause to rally behind
> so that they can see themselves as a vital part of humanity and not just
> another nameless cog.

It remains an incredibly untapped resource today. Vampires coming wholesale out of their graves would generate less fear. We’ve been pretty well brainwashed by the ‘experts’ and the ‘media’ on the point, haven’t we?

So, since we haven’t a nuclear power crisis that the military institution could be adapted to solve in our “Over the Rainbow” IRL, today, can you think of somewhere else the military could be very effective to restore what we once might have had? Three guesses — the first two don’t count. Read supra.

Appropo of nothing whatever, I understand that the base school system ran by the Department of Defense is considered a model of excellent education — so much so that my local county head of the board of education (the Los Angeles Unified School District — known as the “Board that Swallowed Up Education”) has, with quite a bit of publicity, pointed to that system as a guide for improvements. 😉

Anyone? Oscagne? Two days to go until the first meeting; and don’t forget, posts provoke fruitful chat.

>
> > Anyone think? Anyone think there’s a solution or two in “Over the
> > Rainbow,” or any of the works that followed Expanded Universe? Short of
> > going back and starting over again with Herbert Hoover in office?
> >
> > Have we done anything right since Hoovervilles? What do you think
> > Heinlein thought?
> >
> > There’s a lot to talk about in just this one essay, and the one fiction
> > about the lady who played in Star Trek.
>
> You might keep in mind that the new (successful and laudable?) president
> basically uses the approach that is later ridiculed in Friday: “just tell
> the PTB that they’re not meeting the standards, and keep. . . ” firing “. .
> . them until they do.”
>

The salient difference I think you’ll find when you compare them is this: in Friday, no standard was ever announced. Not even an incoherently stated one. I think it’s pretty plain that Nichelle Nichols made her standards clear. Some were even self-evident.

> > Be nice to have some replies before Thursday, when the chat starts …
>
> The general lack of interest has me sweating. Probably my fault for not
> being coming up with a thought-provoking post such as your, David.
>

It’s simply a matter of prattling on . . . sometimes it makes sense, no matter how hard I try, sometimes it doesn’t but the readers twist it into decent shape trying to figure out sense from what I’ve said. One thing though: Talking about it works.


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: “LV Poker Player”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 3:17 AM

>From: “David M. Silver”

>I agree we’ve made it harder than it should be. Some say they teach
>because of altruism. Some who say that speak truth. Some who keep their
>mouths shut and soldier also do so because of altruism. I’m downright
>cynical about the numbers, however.

Never appeal to a man’s better nature, because he might not have one. Appealing to his self interest gives you more leverage.

I seem to remember that from somewhere. 🙂


Ferengi rule of acquisition #192: Never cheat a Klingon…unless you’re sure
you can get away with it.

From: “at work”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:07 AM

“David M. Silver” wrote in message
news:
> In article ,
> > I don’t think Heinlein was
> > making a statement about the system, he was making a statement about people.
>
> Makers, takers, fakers, forever more.

I think we just said the same thing.

> >
> [snip myself]
> > >
> > > Some say it’s the union’s fault. Is it? I could, with equal authority,
> > > maintain it’s the fault of lawmakers: those idiots that think if they
> > > pass a comprehensive set of standards, all will be well in a couple of
> > > years. It’s the argument made in Friday, by one of the terrorist groups:
> > > just tell the PTB that they’re not meeting the standards, and keep
> > > killing them until they do. No wonder no one with half a brain wants to
> > > teach in public education.
> >
> > The argument could be made that if you want some purpose to succeed you have
> > to set it up in some way that there is a financial reward that goes along
> > with its success. I don’t think we really have this right now. Teachers
> > teach because they want to make the world a better place: altruism, not
> > because they get rich doing it.
>
> I agree we’ve made it harder than it should be. Some say they teach
> because of altruism. Some who say that speak truth. Some who keep their
> mouths shut and soldier also do so because of altruism. I’m downright
> cynical about the numbers, however.
>

What other incentive have we left them? Not cash, teachers’ wages may be fair when taken as an economic model (supply vs. demand, etc.) but on an individual basis the job is tougher than the pay scale accounts. Huge vacations? That 3 mos. in the summer is getting shorter, and has gone completely away in districts that have year-round schooling. Benefits? I suppose that depends on the districts, also. Off the top of my head, the only motivation I can see to be a teacher other than altruism is just plain liking kids. I don’t much, so that concept is a bit foriegn to me, but how many teachers just plain like kids?

> > But how many human endevors have succeeded
> > without offering that finiancial incentive?
>
> You’ll have to ask the Jesuits about that: they’d probably have a
> well-informed opinion: me, I can’t think of many. For myself, in my own
> profession, I know only a few who’ve survived a full career acting on
> Thurgood Marshall’s expressed motivation; and damned few who’ve lasted
> long without a great deal of luck and success. It seems to me there’s
> not a great deal of success, year-after-year, in teaching for a great
> many. We celebrate the Thurgood Marshalls, few that they are, and forget
> about ones like Tom Hunt, frex, a fine civil-rights attorney, who did
> wonderful things for about twenty years, always living hand to mouth,
> always seeking to strive and not to yield, but finally succumbed to
> frustration, poverty, and was disbarred in disgrace. I suspect teachers
> have as many stories as I about as many burnt out Mr. Chipses.

About a year ago I was reading alt.callahans. One of the posters there was (still is? I doubt it, but don’t know) a teacher, and as a.c was his support base I read a lot about his experiences. The hell of it is that he had more headaches from his admins than from his students. More yammerheadism. It’s just barely in my mind, but I seem to remember that he got out of teaching about the time I stopped reading the group. I think he took a more lucrative position with a company. Whatever the outcome, I can verify that the same old B.S. happened in my school system in the late ’80s. My mom was secretary at our Junior High, and I saw that teachers just got the dirty end of the stick. I won’t do that job unless there is some kind of _drastic_ change in the system or in me. *shrug*

*snip*

> So it’s rewards to the teachers? Is there anything besides money that
> you give them?

I dunno, you tell me. I addressed rewards up-post, but the only compensation I could come up with is the opportunity to spend time around kids, for those who like that sort of thing.

> > > What’s the real problem? How about the silly notion that everyone must
> > > have a degree? What did Heinlein write after EU? Friday? What did the
> > > California Confederation do about degrees in Friday? D’oh!
> > >
>
> What about that point? Why do most of us need college degrees? Did it
> matter whether or not I had a college degree when I entered my
> profession? For that matter, why even a high school degree? What do they
> signify? What need do they serve today? Is there something better that
> might do? What makes the glorified babysitting service we maintain (in
> many cases today until the baby is nearly thirty, or more) necessary?
> It’s plainly not education that most obtain in it.

Just speaking from my own limited personal experience looking for jobs, it seems to be a lodge initiation. Like pledging a frat: You have to put in your time before you can reap your rewards. Another prospective employer put it like this: He looked for college degrees because having one usually meant that a person had the focus and wherewithall to set a long-term goal and stick with it long enough to acheive it. I’m assuming you’re leaving out the technical professions on purpose. For those sorts of activities you _need_ what the college offers you to be able to do your job. You might not necessarily get it from a college, but you have to get it somewhere.

As far as lawyering goes… I suspect that if I had some kind of advisor who knew how to do the legal research and whatnot, who knew the precedents that I don’t have in my head, I could argue a case. But correct me if I’m wrong, there’s very little actual court-room time involved in lawyering; the majority of the work is the research and whatnot, right? And again, there is the lodge initiation aspect of it. “Person X spent his/her time being wrung out in law school and survived it, and is therefore capable of the stresses of working at this firm.” You tell me how necesary that wringing-out is.

*snip*

> I’ve never seen the Marines’ manual

All I know about it is what I’ve read in some W.E.B. Griffin books, but he _seems_ to have his research down.

> — I suppose they do; but I’ve got a
> pretty good idea who initially developed the dogma in it; and the first
> guerrilla conflict he fought wasn’t in the banana republics — it was on
> Samar, in the Philippines where the ‘old Army of Indian fighters’ tried
> to turn him into a scapegoat for their atrocities. He survived,
> acquitted by the courts martial for 18 counts of murder they put him
> through; and the Marines put in charge of training and, later, set him
> to command some of the banana war efforts. His name was Littleton Waller
> Tazewell Waller, late Major General, USMC, “Stand, gentlemen. He served
> on Samar!” Look him up. Try under “the Butcher of Samar,” and watch out
> for the slovenly trash they deem acceptable historical research these
> days in academia. Some day I’m going to finish my novel about him. A
> farily good account, generally, of the supression of the Philippines,
> the first “little brown brother,” as Oscar Gordon calls them, with
> intent aforethought, circa 1899-1902 (heh! it went on a while longer,
> but Teddy’s sense of PR declared what followed mere supression of Moro
> “bandits”) is a book titled Schoolbooks and Krags : The United States
> Army in the Philippines, 1898-1902 by John M. Gates Greenwood Publishing
> Group; (April 1973) ISBN: 0837158184. It’s out of print, but you can
> find it on albris, etc. It’s well worth reading. I’ve an ulterior motive
> in dragging out that title. See infra.

I’ll look for it. And by-the-by, I’ve got a 1898 Krag (.30-40). Nice little rifle.

> > > Then, the third thing: Inflation! Heinlein had a lot to say about the
> > > rise in National Debt. He said our national debt would never be paid.It
> > > was just a matter of time before the deluge: Makers, Takers and Fakers.
> >
> > Weren’t people complaining about Deflation a couple-three years ago? I know
> > there were some concerns, but I dismissed them at the time as more Chicken
> > Little wailing — just like the wailing about Inflation.
> >
>
> Yeah, but what about what Heinlein writes in “Gloom, Woe, and Disaster.”
> I’ll help you out, pp. 541-44, the Trade Edition of EU, and see also,
> especially, the charts and following commentary on 553 ff.

I don’t have it to hand. I’ll look it up when I get home.

> > We could just go back on the gold standard? *grin*
>
> I suppose, so long as something better wasn’t available or possible.
> Appropo of nothing whatsoever, did you ever read the so-called “social
> credit” theory?

It doesn’t ring a bell.

*snip*

> So, since we haven’t a nuclear power crisis that the military
> institution could be adapted to solve in our “Over the Rainbow” IRL,
> today, can you think of somewhere else the military could be very
> effective to restore what we once might have had? Three guesses — the
> first two don’t count. Read supra.

Well, we’ve been beating the education system into the ground with a large hammer throughout this thread, so That’s My Final Answer.

> Appropo of nothing whatever, I understand that the base school system
> ran by the Department of Defense is considered a model of excellent
> education — so much so that my local county head of the board of
> education (the Los Angeles Unified School District — known as the
> “Board that Swallowed Up Education”) has, with quite a bit of publicity,
> pointed to that system as a guide for improvements. 😉

Isn’t there a difference, though? There’s a level of compulsion in the military that we can’t use in civilian life. That’s a difference I’ve had to get across to several former military folks who’ve worked for me as supervisors in the past: I can’t send someone to prison for disobeying an order, and that person always has the option to quit and go home if our orders get too onerous, or our supervisors get too overbearing. Back then, the employees under me were working at near-minimum-wage, so it was quite common for them to decided we were asking too much of them and just quit. We had to finesse the employees. Back to education, that legal compulsion is lacking. It would breach my personal ethics to send bad students, even if they’re bad because of their own negligence, to a prison or even a “special” school (the kind with barbed wire, not the kind with extra-educated teachers serving special needs).

So how about doing completely away with compulsory education? Then the only way you’d get educated is if you wanted to, and we could spend the tax dollars on the kids who would benifit from getting them. AAMOF, run it like the military was run in ST. You’d have a whole _bunch_ of uneducation kids for a while, but what do you want to bet that would be a self-correcting problem in the long run. And the teachers could _teach_ instead of providing day-care.

> > You might keep in mind that the new (successful and laudable?) president
> > basically uses the approach that is later ridiculed in Friday: “just tell
> > the PTB that they’re not meeting the standards, and keep. . . ” firing
“. .
> > . them until they do.”
> >
>
> The salient difference I think you’ll find when you compare them is
> this: in Friday, no standard was ever announced. Not even an
> incoherently stated one. I think it’s pretty plain that Nichelle Nichols
> made her standards clear. Some were even self-evident.

That is a difference. But weren’t _some_ standards evident in the Friday example… at the very least the negative example of the names on the first hit-list. Basically, don’t do whatever the folks on the list were doing.

> > > Be nice to have some replies before Thursday, when the chat starts …
> >
> > The general lack of interest has me sweating. Probably my fault for not
> > being coming up with a thought-provoking post such as your, David.
> >
> It’s simply a matter of prattling on . . . sometimes it makes sense, no
> matter how hard I try, sometimes it doesn’t but the readers twist it
> into decent shape trying to figure out sense from what I’ve said. One
> thing though: Talking about it works.

Hopefully other folks are at least reading these posts. Helloooooooo? Heeeeeellooooooooooooooeeeeeeeooooooo?


Oscagne – waiting for the echo

–> By the way, David, I didn’t get that email yet. If you’ve sent it, please send again. either oscagne at ev1 dot net, or mcgrew at the same place.

From: “TreetopAngel”Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction” Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:50 PM

“at work” wrote:

> So how about doing completely away with compulsory education? Then the only
> way you’d get educated is if you wanted to, and we could spend the tax
> dollars on the kids who would benifit from getting them. AAMOF, run it like
> the military was run in ST. You’d have a whole _bunch_ of uneducation kids
> for a while, but what do you want to bet that would be a self-correcting
> problem in the long run. And the teachers could _teach_ instead of
> providing day-care.
>

I don’t see a problem with this solution.

At least then my tax dollars would be going to help in other areas, not spent on kids who couldn’t care less about an education.

E!

From: “Ed Reppert”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 2:30 PM

In article , TreetopAngel
wrote:

> I don’t see a problem with this solution.
>
> At least then my tax dollars would be going to help in other areas, not
> spent on kids who couldn’t care less about an education.

Hm. Rome fell when the barbarians came through the gates. If we do not give “kids who couldn’t care less about an education” *something* on which to base a reasonable livelihood, are we not creating our own barbarians *within* our gates?

From: “David M. Silver”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 3:01 PM

In article ,
“cmaj7dmin7” wrote:

> “at work” wrote in message
> news:
> >
> >
> > As far as lawyering goes… I suspect that if I had some kind of advisor
> > who knew how to do the legal research and whatnot, who knew the precedents
> > that I don’t have in my head, I could argue a case. But correct me if I’m
> > wrong, there’s very little actual court-room time involved in lawyering;
> > the majority of the work is the research and whatnot, right? And again,
> > there is the lodge initiation aspect of it. “Person X spent his/her time
> > being wrung out in law school and survived it, and is therefore capable of
> > the stresses of working at this firm.” You tell me how necesary that
> > wringing-out is.
>
> As far as doctoring goes… I suspect that if I had some kind of pop-up
> anatomy book that showed which one’s the gall bladder and whatnot, who knew
> the insurance billing codes that I don’t have in my head, I could do heart
> transplants. But correct me if I’m
> wrong, there’s very little actual operating-room time involved in doctoring;
> the majority of the work is the golf and whatnot, right? And again,
> there is the lodge initiation aspect of it. “Person X spent his/her time
> being wrung out in med school and survived it, and is therefore capable of
> the stresses of working at this hospital.” You tell me how necessary that
> wringing-out is.
>
> In the meantime, I’m buying the whatnots on eBay and hoping for the best.
>
> LNC
>
>

I think LN’s point is correct, Oscagne; for a professional school’s curriculum, Law, Medicine, Architecture, others, is very much like the technical school courses — stuff you absolutely much have, to even have hopes of beginning to practice. You may spend a lot of time on the golf course, or in negotiating, or writing letter, or meetings; but if you cannot take it into the courtroom, or make a credible appearance of being able to do that, you won’t get far along before someone suggests perhaps you ought find an alternative occupation. Those three or four years you spend (night schoolers do it in four) are crammed full of what we call procedure and practice courses, rules you must have at the tip of your tongue, ready to deliver instantly in a place that isn’t even remotely like the TV shows.

“Counsel, in this courtroom it isn’t Burger King. You don’t get it done your way. You do it my way. I want two things, and only two things, out of your mouth when you object, _and_ you rise and move to the podium to object in _my_ courtroom _always_! I never want to see you speak from behind your seat again, and you will rue the day you fail to rise before speaking. I want one word: ‘Objection!’ and I then want the exact Federal Rules of Evidence Rule and section and subsections, and nothing else unless I specifically ask you. If you don’t do it that way, I’ll overrule you every time; and if you persistently don’t do it that way, you better have your toothbrush in your pocket, because you’ll spend the night!”

And Chief U.S. District Court Judge Manuel Réal, of the Central U.S. District of California, wasn’t kidding one bit, especially about the toothbrush.

It’s very often not at all like smiling Judge Ito on Court TV.


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: “Oscagne”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 3:36 PM

“David M. Silver” wrote in message
news:
> I think LN’s point is correct, Oscagne; for a professional school’s
> curriculum, Law, Medicine, Architecture, others, is very much like the
> technical school courses — stuff you absolutely much have, to even have
> hopes of beginning to practice.

This is the point I was trying to make. I mentally included those schools in my concept of “technical” but I suppose I should have been more clear. And I didn’t respond to LN’s post because I plonked him a while back.

> You may spend a lot of time on the golf
> course, or in negotiating, or writing letter, or meetings; but if you
> cannot take it into the courtroom, or make a credible appearance of
> being able to do that, you won’t get far along before someone suggests
> perhaps you ought find an alternative occupation. Those three or four
> years you spend (night schoolers do it in four) are crammed full of what
> we call procedure and practice courses, rules you must have at the tip
> of your tongue, ready to deliver instantly in a place that isn’t even
> remotely like the TV shows.
>
> “Counsel, in this courtroom it isn’t Burger King. You don’t get it done
> your way. You do it my way. I want two things, and only two things, out
> of your mouth when you object, _and_ you rise and move to the podium to
> object in _my_ courtroom _always_! I never want to see you speak from
> behind your seat again, and you will rue the day you fail to rise before
> speaking. I want one word: ‘Objection!’ and I then want the exact
> Federal Rules of Evidence Rule and section and subsections, and nothing
> else unless I specifically ask you. If you don’t do it that way, I’ll
> overrule you every time; and if you persistently don’t do it that way,
> you better have your toothbrush in your pocket, because you’ll spend the
> night!”
>
> And Chief U.S. District Court Judge Manuel Réal, of the Central U.S.
> District of California, wasn’t kidding one bit, especially about the
> toothbrush.
>
> It’s very often not at all like smiling Judge Ito on Court TV.

I am not one little bit suprised by that.


Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
wanna read a story?
http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss
or see my goofy website?
http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm

From: “James F. Cornwall”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:29 PM

cmaj7dmin7 wrote:
>
> “at work” wrote in message
> news:
> >
> >
> > As far as lawyering goes… I suspect that if I had some kind of advisor
> > who knew how to do the legal research and whatnot, who knew the precedents
> > that I don’t have in my head, I could argue a case. But correct me if I’m
> > wrong, there’s very little actual court-room time involved in lawyering;
> > the majority of the work is the research and whatnot, right? And again,
> > there is the lodge initiation aspect of it. “Person X spent his/her time
> > being wrung out in law school and survived it, and is therefore capable of
> > the stresses of working at this firm.” You tell me how necesary that
> > wringing-out is.
>
> As far as doctoring goes… I suspect that if I had some kind of pop-up
> anatomy book that showed which one’s the gall bladder and whatnot, who knew
> the insurance billing codes that I don’t have in my head, I could do heart
> transplants. But correct me if I’m
> wrong, there’s very little actual operating-room time involved in doctoring;
> the majority of the work is the golf and whatnot, right? And again,
> there is the lodge initiation aspect of it. “Person X spent his/her time
> being wrung out in med school and survived it, and is therefore capable of
> the stresses of working at this hospital.” You tell me how necessary that
> wringing-out is.
>
> In the meantime, I’m buying the whatnots on eBay and hoping for the best.
>
> LNC

Well, my wife spends the majority of her “doctoring time” (a) looking at patients, (b) trying to keep up with dictations, and (c) dealing with all the bovine byproducts from the gov’t, the hospital administrators (beancounters), and insurance companies. She don’t do golf…

Jim!

****************************************************
** Facilior veniam posterius quam prius capere! **
****************************************************
** James F. Cornwall, sole owner of all opinions **
** expressed in this message… **
****************************************************

From: “Howard Berkowitz”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:56 PM

In article , “David
M. Silver” wrote:

> I think LN’s point is correct, Oscagne; for a professional school’s
> curriculum, Law, Medicine, Architecture, others, is very much like the
> technical school courses — stuff you absolutely much have, to even have
> hopes of beginning to practice.

And in some disciplines, especially newer ones, there wasn’t necessarily a formal educational program. At the time I was in college (and dropped out), there were at most one or two computer science programs in the US. Many, but not all, of the early Internet researchers had advanced degrees, but certainly not in the specific discipline.

>You may spend a lot of time on the golf
> course, or in negotiating, or writing letter, or meetings; but if you
> cannot take it into the courtroom, or make a credible appearance of
> being able to do that, you won’t get far along before someone suggests
> perhaps you ought find an alternative occupation. Those three or four
> years you spend (night schoolers do it in four) are crammed full of what
> we call procedure and practice courses, rules you must have at the tip
> of your tongue, ready to deliver instantly in a place that isn’t even
> remotely like the TV shows.

I don’t disagree with the need for the knowledge, but suggest there may be more ways to get it. A group of colleagues and myself, with varying formal educations, arrived at an LAX hotel after an exhausting day and drive from San Diego. We immediately spent several hours setting up the lab for the next day, then formally checked in. I remember getting room 1518, and, sleepily muttering…”oh…the second in the series of Classless Inter-Domain Routing specifications…RFC 1518.” This brought hysterics from my party, because few had that level of detail memorized.

There’s been a flurry of scandal recently regarding Federal employees that had degrees from non-accredited universities. I certainly can see the degree requirement for entry level, but when someone can point to 20-30 years of demonstrable expert performance in a field, peer-reviewed publications, etc., I begin to wonder why the degree is the issue. Yes, I know the argument that it shows one can stick to something, but does it show that as much as real-world project completion?

>
> “Counsel, in this courtroom it isn’t Burger King. You don’t get it done
> your way. You do it my way. I want two things, and only two things, out
> of your mouth when you object, _and_ you rise and move to the podium to
> object in _my_ courtroom _always_! I never want to see you speak from
> behind your seat again, and you will rue the day you fail to rise before
> speaking. I want one word: ‘Objection!’ and I then want the exact
> Federal Rules of Evidence Rule and section and subsections, and nothing
> else unless I specifically ask you. If you don’t do it that way, I’ll
> overrule you every time; and if you persistently don’t do it that way,
> you better have your toothbrush in your pocket, because you’ll spend the
> night!”

And that can be very much like the discussions at a standards meeting, although you can’t just cite precedent, but explain its relevance.

From: TreetopAngel

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:22 PM

“Ed Reppert” wrote:

> In article , TreetopAngel
> wrote:
>
> > I don’t see a problem with this solution.
> >
> > At least then my tax dollars would be going to help in other areas, not
> > spent on kids who couldn’t care less about an education.
>
> Hm. Rome fell when the barbarians came through the gates. If we do not
> give “kids who couldn’t care less about an education” *something* on
> which to base a reasonable livelihood, are we not creating our own
> barbarians *within* our gates?

Hmmm. Been inside a Junior (Middle) or Senior High school lately? Looked at attendance records, check out the kids in the mall lately? The “barbarians” are here and my tax dollars are being spent trying to make them stay in school…which they don’t seem to want. If it is this bad in Missoula, Montana, I can’t even imagine the problem it is in a bigger city.

Many of them have no sense of responsibility, no respect for anyone (least of all themselves and each other) and seem to think society (you and I) owe them a living. If this isn’t the break down of society as we know it, I don’t know what is…

E!

From: Pete LaGrange

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:44 PM

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:22:23 -0600, TreetopAngel wrote:

>
> “Ed Reppert” wrote:
>
>> In article , TreetopAngel
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I don’t see a problem with this solution.
>> >
>> > At least then my tax dollars would be going to help in other areas, not
>> > spent on kids who couldn’t care less about an education.
>>
>> Hm. Rome fell when the barbarians came through the gates. If we do not
>> give “kids who couldn’t care less about an education” *something* on
>> which to base a reasonable livelihood, are we not creating our own
>> barbarians *within* our gates?
>
> Hmmm. Been inside a Junior (Middle) or Senior High school lately?

Yes, I have, as a matter of fact. Most recently I saw polite well groomed kids who were excited to show their displayed artwork to their parents. Other occasasions were similar.

> Looked at attendance records, check out the kids in the mall lately?

Yes and yes. As to attendance, anything more than twenty absences results in failure of all classes. When I was in HS I struggled to avoid missing twenty days in a /quarter/. The Mall is where they go to impress each other, the clothes, the hair and the piercings are all alien to me but my old man hated the black leather I wore at that age.

> The “barbarians” are here and my tax dollars are being spent trying to
> make them stay in school…which they don’t seem to want. If it is this
> bad in Missoula, Montana, I can’t even imagine the problem it is in a
> bigger city.
>
> Many of them have no sense of responsibility, no respect for anyone
> (least of all themselves and each other) and seem to think society (you
> and I) owe them a living.

I’m sure many do fit that description, but was it really any different twenty years ago?

> If this isn’t the break down of society as we
> know it, I don’t know what is…

It’s just normal teenage rebellion, IMO. The smart ones will learn soon enough that it only works as long as mom and dad keep feeding you.


Pete LaGrange

From: TreetopAngel

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:10 PM

“Pete LaGrange” wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:22:23 -0600, TreetopAngel wrote:
>
> >
> > “Ed Reppert” wrote:
> >
> >> In article ,TreetopAngel
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I don’t see a problem with this solution.
> >> >
> >> > At least then my tax dollars would be going to help in other areas, not
> >> > spent on kids who couldn’t care less about an education.
> >>
> >> Hm. Rome fell when the barbarians came through the gates. If we do not
> >> give “kids who couldn’t care less about an education” *something* on
> >> which to base a reasonable livelihood, are we not creating our own
> >> barbarians *within* our gates?
> >
> > Hmmm. Been inside a Junior (Middle) or Senior High school lately?
>
> Yes, I have, as a matter of fact. Most recently I saw polite well groomed
> kids who were excited to show their displayed artwork to their parents.
> Other occasasions were similar.

Was this during the day or at a special time? The hallways in the schools around here, during the day are home to all those who don’t want to attend classes, they hang out in groups. Even in our free periods, when I was in school we still had to vacate the hallways.

>
> > Looked at attendance records, check out the kids in the mall lately?
>
> Yes and yes. As to attendance, anything more than twenty absences results
> in failure of all classes. When I was in HS I struggled to avoid missing
> twenty days in a /quarter/. The Mall is where they go to impress each
> other, the clothes, the hair and the piercings are all alien to me but my
> old man hated the black leather I wore at that age.

Nice school! I wish more would have those types of rules and stick to them if they did. There was a couple of kids in my class who when and if they showed up they were either drunk or selling drugs.

>
> > The “barbarians” are here and my tax dollars are being spent trying to
> > make them stay in school…which they don’t seem to want. If it is this
> > bad in Missoula, Montana, I can’t even imagine the problem it is in a
> > bigger city.
> >
> > Many of them have no sense of responsibility, no respect for anyone
> > (least of all themselves and each other) and seem to think society (you
> > and I) owe them a living.
>
> I’m sure many do fit that description, but was it really any different
> twenty years ago?

I think the numbers of them are getting larger.

>
> > If this isn’t the break down of society as we
> > know it, I don’t know what is…
>
> It’s just normal teenage rebellion, IMO. The smart ones will learn soon
> enough that it only works as long as mom and dad keep feeding you.

True, however, I’ve seen parents back their kids no matter what their behavior is. They expect the teachers to teach them how to play nice, be courteous and respectful…something the parents should have addressed before the kids reached school age. I recognize teen rebellion, but there sure are a lot of kids out there who are stepping beyond those boundaries.

E!
>
> —
> Pete LaGrange
>

From: Pete LaGrange

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:36 PM

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:10:12 -0600, TreetopAngel wrote:
>
> Was this during the day or at a special time? The hallways in the
> schools around here, during the day are home to all those who don’t want
> to attend classes, they hang out in groups. Even in our free periods,
> when I was in school we still had to vacate the hallways.

It’s been that way every time I’ve visited (maybe 6-12 times a year).

 

> Nice school! I wish more would have those types of rules and stick to
> them if they did. There was a couple of kids in my class who when and
> if they showed up they were either drunk or selling drugs.

That was MY school in the seventies.

 

> I think the numbers of them are getting larger.

I’d agree if I hadn’t listened to my Dad kvetch about how the world was going to hell for most of my adolesence.

 

>> It’s just normal teenage rebellion, IMO. The smart ones will learn soon
>> enough that it only works as long as mom and dad keep feeding you.
>
> True, however, I’ve seen parents back their kids no matter what their
> behavior is. They expect the teachers to teach them how to play nice,
> be courteous and respectful…something the parents should have
> addressed before the kids reached school age. I recognize teen
> rebellion, but there sure are a lot of kids out there who are stepping
> beyond those boundaries.

So true, and those parents are gonna have to pay the piper one day. The sad part is the kids will be paying the same price because no one cared enough about them to teach them how the world really works. I’m 42 years old and the vast majority of my friends from HS are either dead or in jail. I can’t help but think that a little disipline and care applied by their parents might have saved many of them.


Pete LaGrange

From: David M. Silver

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:33 PM

In article ,
Pete LaGrange wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:10:12 -0600, TreetopAngel wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Was this during the day or at a special time? The hallways in the
> > schools around here, during the day are home to all those who don’t want
> > to attend classes, they hang out in groups. Even in our free periods,
> > when I was in school we still had to vacate the hallways.
>
> It’s been that way every time I’ve visited (maybe 6-12 times a year).
>
>
>
> > Nice school! I wish more would have those types of rules and stick to
> > them if they did. There was a couple of kids in my class who when and
> > if they showed up they were either drunk or selling drugs.
>
> That was MY school in the seventies.
>
>
>

But that wasn’t my school in the fifties, which is what made “Blackboard Jungle” so shocking to most of us. Drunk? I can’t think of it ever happening. I knew a couple lamebrain football players showed up with a six pack in their car once. A can each during lunch. Period after lunch, a teacher detected the odor. Off the team. Ineligibility. Suspension of both for two weeks. Probation the rest of the year. No letter. And one had been a starter for two years and our second-best low hurdler. I had to worry about that one’s dumb replacement playing behind me the rest of the season. Sell drugs? Yeah, one guy sold someone marijuana, once. He went to a ‘special’ school for truly ‘special’ students they had in Los Angeles, pending his trial in the juvenile courts. He never came back. It was called Jackson High School. There were four other High Schools like that in Los Angeles: Jacob Riis, Kit Carson, Betsy Ross, and something called El Rancho — which was for the psychos. El Rancho was a boarding school. The teachers at Jackson, Riis, and Carson were all male, large, and physically fit, and had all the characteristics sought for guards at institutions where they have bars on the windows. Same thing at Ross, except all were female. Rancho had people who wore white coats and helped you into your strait jacket if you had problems dressing appropriately to the season.

Corporal punishment was permitted, in all schools. It wasn’t common, but it occurred in mine. Administration of it required approval of the head of the department; and usually they sent the problem to the principal, who decided upon it. Who administered it? Usually, for boys, the football coach. Girls got whatever they got from Miss Rados, the head girls’ gym coach. I wouldn’t know what they got. You were male you generally stayed as far from that place as you could get. Ms. Rados had a demerit pad, you see, and a very good relationship with the football coach, who looked on her as if she were his favored daughter. Swats with a paddle, up to three. Three twice during a semester, you got suspended two weeks, and while suspended, they decided whether you’d get transfered to, guess what: Jackson, Riis, Carson, or El Rancho (or Betsy Ross, but usually the Ross girls quietly disappeared into it for reasons that had very little to do with swats for offenses committed at school or during school hours.)

Other punishments, not corporal, were administered. You picked up trash, after school, if ordered to do so as an alternative to swats. You could do other janitorial work, administered as an alterative or to make up for demerits for lesser offenses, by your own teacher whose class you might have distrupted — I corrected a lot homework for a history teacher once, and trued more than a few T-squares and boards for a drafting teacher. Some guys who took woodshop got to make new paddles for the football coaches . . . heh, and more than a few got to taste the effects thereof. “Hey, Coach Winfield, I made that one for you.” “Good job, now bend over.”

No one wandered the halls, without a pass. No one got out of class without a pass. No one was late to a class without demerits. You started with a hundred merits each semester. Three demerits for being late. Three demerits for each class you cut. Drop below seventy-five merits, and you didn’t advance to the next grade, didn’t graduate, didn’t retain eligibility for any sport, club, or other school-sponsored organization or option (Student Newspaper, Work-Study, or you name it). Seven classes a day. Cut it: twenty-one demerits. Figure it out. Get caught twice and you were ineligible to graduate. Happened to me. You worked one hour for a teacher after or before class to get rid of those demerits. Remember my correcting homework and truing all those squares and boards? And it was discretionary on the part of the teacher whether he or she would allow you to work for him or her. If you cut class you kept going and didn’t hang around anywhere near the school. They’d come get you, you’d get demerits, swats, and suspended. Very rarely was it even necessary to call the juvenile LAPD division. Drop outs and graduates didn’t hang out around the school during school hours. Drop outs rarely showed up around the school ever. Guards? We had no guards. We had the Letterman’s Club. They ushered events. We had other service organizations. They ushered events as well, four-eyed nerds, backed up if needed by the not exactly always smiling guy who played right tackle and made All League last year, but it wasn’t really necessary. There were always certain teachers around. They taught something, maybe a little math or history, but they also filled out their teaching by coaching a little, acting as gopher for the principal, working in the attendance office, teaching drivers’ training, health, monitoring study halls, or acting as counselers, or whatever. They had a certain characteristic. They moved in at the slightest hint of a problem. They smiled and joked and the problem went away, or else.

We had a dress code. We adhered to it, or got demerits. No leather jackets. No motorcycle boots, no dog chains dangling from our levis, no plain tee-shirts, rolled up our arms so the cigarette pack would stay put or not. If you wore levis, they were clean, and they didn’t hang low on your hips — long. You wore a shirt with a collar. No gang jackets. No club jackets during school hours. No car club plaques in the parking lot, or adjacent to the school. Park it with one, not only did they have your car towed — and you got to deal with the LAPD to get it out, but you got suspended, demerits, put on probation, and while you were suspended they decided whether you got sent elsewhere (you got it: Riis, Jackson, Carson or El Rancho or Betsy Ross). [Girls wore slips, dresses, office type apparel, buttoned up, and not too much makeup. Shorts, aside from gym class, were verbotten; and girls did not wear slacks to class — after school was fine.]

We had a student government. If you disputed a demerit, you got a trial, a student judge (It was an elected student government position, a senior, and the only one I remember was a she, and she was one very well put together young lady, respected all around — Diane Asimov — and I always wondered about the relationship, if any), a jury from the student council of your class, and their decisions were final. They imposed the penalty in disputed cases. They occasionally reversed a teacher. We had one wacko who was going around the bend, kept imposing demerits for “talking back.” They reversed her a lot of times, and she was ‘retired’ a little earlier than she thought she should have been.

> > I think the numbers of them are getting larger.
>
> I’d agree if I hadn’t listened to my Dad kvetch about how the world
> was going to hell for most of my adolesence.
>

My dad thought the world was going to hell, too; but the few times he was around the school he saw nothing to critize about it. When I complained to him about not being able to wear a nice leather jacket I had, (it wasn’t even black, fer goodness sakes, it was his old Army Air Corps jacket he’d picked up after the war to keep warm when he drove a truck, and given me) he smiled at me and told me how much fun he’d had when he’d been apprenticed to become a plumber at age eleven or twelve. He opined I probably wasn’t strong enough to move the old iron pipes. 😉

We were very proud to go to that school. We didn’t win many sports championships. We had more than our share of National Merit Scholars, however; but we weren’t the top rated academic school, either. We didn’t send a lot of kids to four year colleges right out of high school, either. Not a lot of money for college in most of those families. We didn’t have the newest buildings, or books, or the best equipped shops, or the fanciest dances, or the richer students — we had a few well-off from Los Feliz, a little rich enclove to the north next to Griffith Park, but also more than fifty percent of the student body were non-white [hispanic, oriental, black, ‘armenian,’ lots of tough “right tackles” named Cholakian, Rodriquez, Kubo, or whatever — and a few of them were student body officers, one named Nasitir, one named Kosei, some others I’d probably recall if I looked through the year books; but it really wasn’t an important thing to many of us; and most of their parents worked for an hourly wage]. Along the walls of the main corridor were the photos of the boys and men who’d died in World War II, with the year of their class or the year their class would have been in the case of a few (x’45, x’46). And a brass plaque with their names. There were sixty-eight of them. Not a huge number. But our graduating classes rarely exceeded 300 or so. One time I was working off demerits I got to brasso the plaque, and the brass frames on the photos. Took me about five days, a hour each day, after school. They all shinned when I got done with them. The principal for whom I was working wouldn’t have allowed it to have been done any other way. I forget what he’d nailed me for — something juvenile, no doubt of it.

I really figured out what was going on with education during the mid 1970s when a lot of community money was raised to renovate the old brick buildings of that school instead of tearing them down and replacing them with the standard prefab junk we see today. I went back to see how well the renovation had been done. The old principal of course had retired.The new restored and repainted interior walls were bare. All the photos and plaques of the boys from World War II were gone. No one seemed to know where. If I ever find out who ordered them removed . . . . and were they went . . . .

Just about the same time I heard they’d shut down Jackson, Riis, Kit Carson, Betsy Ross, and El Rancho.

[snip]

It’s not just parents. It’s stupid laws that prevent the teachers and administrators from instilling pride, and discipline, and teaching!

Legislators may have passed those laws, and everyone knows that most legislators are lawyers, but the ‘experts’ asked for them.

” . . . first thing, let’s kill all the child psychologists and social
workers.” Then free beer all around.


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: Pete LaGrange

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:34 AM

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:33:15 -0700, David M. Silver wrote:

>

> Legislators may have passed those laws, and everyone knows that most
> legislators are lawyers, but the ‘experts’ asked for them.

I may be in the minority, but you won’t find me bad-mouthing attorneys. Often they are the oppressed’s last resort, before violence, to obtain justice.

> ” . . . first thing, let’s kill all the child psychologists and social
> workers.” Then free beer all around.

Kids too? ;->


Pete LaGrange

From: David M. Silver

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 2:34 AM

In article ,
Pete LaGrange wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:33:15 -0700, David M. Silver wrote:
>
> > > closer to the above than the rancid cesspool I attended, minus the
> spankings. That discussion I’ll put off for another day, only because,
> while I think the kids ought to have something to be nervous about, I’m
> not too sure how I’d react to someone striking my kids.
>

Oh, I think John Winfield would have gladly let you take his place. He probably would have gone down in the boiler room under the gym and enjoyed one of those cigarettes, he kept trying unsuccessfully to conceal use of with a licorice gum, and a cuppa while you tended to your kid’s knitting. He didn’t like having to do it. I know, he told me so, ad nauseum, the one time he gave me three of his best. He also told me he expected me to take off practice that afternoon to soak my sore butt, but after that to make practice Thursday and be readly to start at my usual position Friday afternoon (it was Wednesday) or he’d run me for laps around the track and up and down “The Hill” (We had one on the corner of our practice field. Hilly little part of Los Angeles. “Arriba,” he’d say, and point when displeased.), ” . . .’til kingdom come.”

Winfield was between about fifty-five and sixty when I played for him; and, believe me, he didn’t need power trips over fifteen- or seventeen-year-old kids to bolster his self-image. He also occasionally tossed his whistle to another P.E. teacher, put on a coat, white shirt and tie, and walked into one of our algebra or geometry classes to sub, teaching it better and faster than most of the regular faculty. USC, ’32, little completely bald guy (we called him “Chrome Dome” but never to his face), about 5′ 8″ but lettered two years as a guard for Howard Jones’ Thundering Herd. So he coached. Single wing, seven yards mostly in a much larger cloud of dust than any T formation you ever saw generated, but every once in a while we’d dazzle them with the buck-lateral series — God help them! He won the City Championship in ’55, two years before my time, with a team including a guy named Clark Holden who went on to be an All-American fullback at that accursed football factory he graduated from.

> > It’s not just parents. It’s stupid laws that prevent the teachers and
> > administrators from instilling pride, and discipline, and teaching!
>
> Yet the ultimate responsibility falls to the parents. Think how much
> easier a teacher’s job would be (was) when the parents exercised some
> control over their children.
>
> > Legislators may have passed those laws, and everyone knows that most
> > legislators are lawyers, but the ‘experts’ asked for them.
>
> I may be in the minority, but you won’t find me bad-mouthing attorneys.
> Often they are the oppressed’s last resort, before violence, to obtain
> justice.
>
> > ” . . . first thing, let’s kill all the child psychologists and social
> > workers.” Then free beer all around.
>
> Kids too? ;->
>

Depends on what Jack Cade and Dick the Butcher say! They’ll be in charge. ;-P~~~~~


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: Ed Reppert

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 2:06 AM

In article , TreetopAngel
wrote:

> Hmmm. Been inside a Junior (Middle) or Senior High school lately?
> Looked at attendance records, check out the kids in the mall lately?

No, no, and no.

> The “barbarians” are here and my tax dollars are being spent trying to
> make them stay in school…which they don’t seem to want. If it is this
> bad in Missoula, Montana, I can’t even imagine the problem it is in a
> bigger city.
>
> Many of them have no sense of responsibility, no respect for anyone
> (least of all themselves and each other) and seem to think society (you
> and I) owe them a living. If this isn’t the break down of society as we
> know it, I don’t know what is…

Perhaps so, but is simply setting them adrift going to help anything?

From: David M. Silver

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 2:54 AM

In article ,
Ed Reppert wrote:

> In article , TreetopAngel
> wrote:
>
> > Hmmm. Been inside a Junior (Middle) or Senior High school lately?
> > Looked at attendance records, check out the kids in the mall lately?
>
> No, no, and no.
>
> > The “barbarians” are here and my tax dollars are being spent trying to
> > make them stay in school…which they don’t seem to want. If it is this
> > bad in Missoula, Montana, I can’t even imagine the problem it is in a
> > bigger city.
> >
> > Many of them have no sense of responsibility, no respect for anyone
> > (least of all themselves and each other) and seem to think society (you
> > and I) owe them a living. If this isn’t the break down of society as we
> > know it, I don’t know what is…
>
> Perhaps so, but is simply setting them adrift going to help anything?

We could give them a choice. Expell them for whatever reason merits it. Tell them: Now, go adrift until the cops scoop you up. Or, there’s this diversion program that might even get you back into a school we have just set up we might call the Civilian Conservation Corps. Ship them away from their ‘homies,’ feed and cloth them, cut their hair, and help them find ways to burn off excess energy and get proper exercise and bank most of their wages until they ‘graduate,’ get a worthwhile job or return to school, or maybe even teach those whose attitude qualifies a good trade?

I can make a list of little jobs in my neighborhood alone they could do. For starters, the graffiti, but that’s merely a minor start. Lots of useful work on one end of an idiot stick needs to be done.

I’m sure we might find a few middle-aged men and women probably qualified and quite willing to help train them … you still get to retire after twenty, don’t you, OJ?


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: “LV Poker Player”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:25 AM

>I’d agree if I hadn’t listened to my Dad kvetch about how the world
>was going to hell for most of my adolesence.

It’s probably been happening since we learned language (and the thoughts may have been there even when they could not be communicated). Of course, once in a while a Roman Empire does fall…


Ferengi rule of acquisition #192: Never cheat a Klingon…unless you’re sure
you can get away with it.

From: “TreetopAngel”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:49 PM

“Ed Reppert” wrote:
> In article , TreetopAngel
> wrote:
>
> > Hmmm. Been inside a Junior (Middle) or Senior High school lately?
> > Looked at attendance records, check out the kids in the mall lately?
>
> No, no, and no.
>
> > The “barbarians” are here and my tax dollars are being spent trying to
> > make them stay in school…which they don’t seem to want. If it is this
> > bad in Missoula, Montana, I can’t even imagine the problem it is in a
> > bigger city.
> >
> > Many of them have no sense of responsibility, no respect for anyone
> > (least of all themselves and each other) and seem to think society (you
> > and I) owe them a living. If this isn’t the break down of society as we
> > know it, I don’t know what is…
>
> Perhaps so, but is simply setting them adrift going to help anything?

No, it won’t help anything, but neither does making them go to school. So what do we do about it? I am out of ideas and since none of the kids are mine, I don’t have much influence on them.

Now the ones who want to be in school are easy to talk to and they show genuine interest in what their future is going to hold and how to get what they want out of life. If only the other kids would stand still long enough to listen.

E!

From: “TreetopAngel”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:52 PM

“David M. Silver” wrote:

> In article ,
> Ed Reppert wrote:
>
> > In article , TreetopAngel
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hmmm. Been inside a Junior (Middle) or Senior High school lately?
> > > Looked at attendance records, check out the kids in the mall lately?
> >
> > No, no, and no.
> >
> > > The “barbarians” are here and my tax dollars are being spent trying to
> > > make them stay in school…which they don’t seem to want. If it is this
> > > bad in Missoula, Montana, I can’t even imagine the problem it is in a
> > > bigger city.
> > >
> > > Many of them have no sense of responsibility, no respect for anyone
> > > (least of all themselves and each other) and seem to think society (you
> > > and I) owe them a living. If this isn’t the break down of society as we
> > > know it, I don’t know what is…
> >
> > Perhaps so, but is simply setting them adrift going to help anything?
>
> We could give them a choice. Expell them for whatever reason merits it.
> Tell them: Now, go adrift until the cops scoop you up. Or, there’s this
> diversion program that might even get you back into a school we have
> just set up we might call the Civilian Conservation Corps. Ship them
> away from their ‘homies,’ feed and cloth them, cut their hair, and help
> them find ways to burn off excess energy and get proper exercise and
> bank most of their wages until they ‘graduate,’ get a worthwhile job or
> return to school, or maybe even teach those whose attitude qualifies a
> good trade?
>
> I can make a list of little jobs in my neighborhood alone they could do.
> For starters, the graffiti, but that’s merely a minor start. Lots of
> useful work on one end of an idiot stick needs to be done.
>
> I’m sure we might find a few middle-aged men and women probably
> qualified and quite willing to help train them … you still get to
> retire after twenty, don’t you, OJ?
>

That sounds like a viable idea. The problem with this is the coddling of our youth and being afraid to stand up to them and tell them “NO.”

E!

From: “David M. Silver”

Subject: Re: Meeting Tonight, Reminder: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 4:53 PM

In article ,
“Oscagne” wrote:

> So, lets talk about it July 24, and 26 and keep alive our custom of talking
> about Heinlein’s works. [snip] Anyone around who hasn’t yet joined us for a
> Chat is welcome to join us, just see
> http://heinleinsociety.org/Archives/ReadersGrp/index.html#Info .

Good morning, as afh’s newly-promoted Major Bohn often starts it off.

Resumption of our RAH-AIM Readers Group meetings begins tonight, Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 9 PM, EDT, (8 PM, Central, 7 PM, Mountain, 6 PM, Pacific, adjust for whatever your time zone is . . . .) continuing the usual three hours.

Oscagne has volunteered for the next few meetings and will be chat host. [I’ll lurk as long as I am able and do my usual dancing about trying to look active. Anyone — and you don’t have to be a member of The Heinlein Society — interested in helping Oscagne keep these meetings going, let him and me know.]

The topic is “Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Usual bells and whistle (download AIM or something compatible), and shortcut, get an invitation or invite yourself into “Heinlein Readers Group chat” per the instructions at

http://home.alltel.net/dwrighsr/heinlein.html

Hope to see a lot of us there — Heinlein’s non-fiction writings include something everyone can talk about!

We might discuss some efforts for new printings or new publication of Heinlein’s non-fiction that are in the works.

Nice that the chats are resuming. Zim’s normal “three p’s” rule applies to these chats, always: (1) be polite, (2) be patient, and (3) participate! Anyone who mets that criteria in the chat room is always welcome.

There’s still time to get your thoughts on the topic chosen posted in this thread. See you tonight!


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: “Oscagne”

Subject: Re: Meeting Tonight, Reminder: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:24 PM

“David M. Silver” wrote in message
news:

You beat me to it again, David. %^)


Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
wanna read a story? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss
or see my goofy website? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm

From: “Simon Jester”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 5:34 PM

David M. Silver wrote:

> You started
> with a hundred merits each semester. Three demerits for being late.
> Three demerits for each class you cut.

So if you’re going to be even just a minute late for a class, you get the same penalty as if you skip it entirely?

“Might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb.”

From: “Jackie”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 5:41 PM

“at work” wrote in message
news:
>
> “David M. Silver” wrote in message
> news:
> > Meanwhile, since we’re coming up on Thursday and I just finished reading
> > it, why don’t we talk a little about Expanded Universe?
> >
> > There’s a subtitle in “The Happy Days Ahead,” entitled “Gloom, Woe, and
> > Disaster.”
> >
> > Heinlein claimed he saw, in 1979, or whenever, certain “pathological
> > trends” that show our culture headed down the “chute to
> > self-distruction.”
> >
> > He noted one major tread in the decline of education: the degrees are
> > cheapened at all levels, university, junior colleges, and secondary and
> > elementary education. How do you repair a system in which, now, not the
> > two he cited, but three, going on four, generations of pre-college
> > educators are ignorant and uneducated?
> >
> > Is popular in one quarter to claim that privatization, e.g., vouchers
> > will solve everything, just as privation most certainly solved the
> > savings and loan, railroad, airlines, energy and you-name-it. Did
> > Heinlein suggest that, however?
> >
> > Well, if you look uncritically at The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, you
> > might say he did. MIaHM does away, for the purposes of argument, with
> > everything, including public education, to establish the ideal
> > libertarian society — then corrupts that ideal before the end of the
> > book — forget about what comes in less than a couple generations in
> > Cat. Not even the air is free.
>
> It doesn’t look to me like Moon repudiates the ideas of libertarianism. The
> trouble that comes in Moon and later in Cat occurr not because of the system
> that Prof tried to put in place, but by the eventual rejection of the system
> by the inhabitants. They pay lip service to TANSTAAFL, but they still
> create unecesary government (Bozell’s militia, I think… don’t have the
> book in front of me), create superfluous tax schemes, let bullies continue
> bullying (the police in Cat), they still fall right back into the
> governemental template they learned at their mothers’ knees (even though
> Prof offeres them several creative alternatives), and the yammerheads and
> slack-asses take over. The system collapses because it gets perverted in
> the execution, not because the system is flawed. I don’t think Heinlein was
> making a statement about the system, he was making a statement about people.
>
> > OTOH, I could argue that in 1947 when he wrote Rocket Ship Gallileo, he
> > demonstrated an ideal of public education we never attained — but what
> > he thought the model might become: the true ‘comprehensive’ secondary
> > public school — not the hairbrained thing comprehensive education
> > became in the hands of the undereducated and unqualified academic
> > teaching establishment — a sandbox for adults to shovel the children
> > around in to satisify their own views of social inadequacies. I could
> > also demonstrate by citing Have Space Suit — Will Travel, that nothing
> > is insurmountable to an interested, motivated student and parents who do
> > pay attention. Not even hairbrained spinsters who think families are
> > democracies, with children having equal votes.
> >
> > Some say it’s the union’s fault. Is it? I could, with equal authority,
> > maintain it’s the fault of lawmakers: those idiots that think if they
> > pass a comprehensive set of standards, all will be well in a couple of
> > years. It’s the argument made in Friday, by one of the terrorist groups:
> > just tell the PTB that they’re not meeting the standards, and keep
> > killing them until they do. No wonder no one with half a brain wants to
> > teach in public education.
>
> The argument could be made that if you want some purpose to succeed you have
> to set it up in some way that there is a financial reward that goes along
> with its success. I don’t think we really have this right now. Teachers
> teach because they want to make the world a better place: altruism, not
> because they get rich doing it. But how many human endevors have succeeded
> without offering that finiancial incentive? I’d say that any system that
> relies for its existence on human altruism is doomed to failure. Take
> Socialism as an example: I mean good ol’ time Marxian Socialism… “from
> each according to ability to each according to need”. That is a great
> altruistic sentiment, but it assumes that nobody with ability will be lazy
> or greedy. So instead of the Marxian utopia, you get Stalinist Communism.
> This is a concept I learned from Heinlein, though I don’t know if it
> originated with him: when you set things up to obtain the glorious
> impossible, you will instead get the disastrous possible. Any concept that
> _must_ be successful _must_ take the base, greedy, _evil_ habits of humans
> into account, not just “outlaw” base, greedy, and evil habits. Cynical?
> Yup.
>
> > What’s the real problem? How about the silly notion that everyone must
> > have a degree? What did Heinlein write after EU? Friday? What did the
> > California Confederation do about degrees in Friday? D’oh!
> >
> > What’s the solution? Let’s leave that for a second or so.
> >
> > The next big problem in Gloom, Woe and Disaster he sez is the Decline of
> > Patriotism and in the Quality of Our Armed Forces:
>
> This problem may have been solved or at least aleviated, ironically, by an
> enemy that wants to destroy us. Much of the patriotism since 9/11 has
> faded, but there is still a core number of patriots who are conspicuously
> visible (at least I see them) on a daily basis.
>
> > Bear in mind, however, that in 1979 there was a serious morale problem.
> > Much of what he cites as may have been overcome. We’ll see, now that
> > we’re once again in a guerrilla warfare situation — the long, hard,
> > haul. You do know we’ve won a few guerrilla wars, don’t you? Maybe if I
> > criticize the leadership I can keep from calling it by ‘the shrub’ for
> > the purposes of this exercise — or we can pretend I haven’t in the
> > past, and we can stay on topic — is there something fundamentally wrong
> > today with our military and Patriotism in our youth?
> >
> > I happen to believe our military knows exactly how and how not to fight
> > a guerrilla war. It knew how in Viet Nam. It just wasn’t allowed to; and
> > I’m not talking about Samars, or Sand Creeks, or Wounded Knees, either.
> > God forbid we ever see another My Lai.
>
> Doesn’t the Marine Corps have a manual just for this? They claim to have
> “won” the guerrilla conflicts in the bananna republics early last century
> (that’s where they learned the lessons they put in the manual), but I
> haven’t studied those conflicts. Were the outcomes there positive?
>
> > Then, the third thing: Inflation! Heinlein had a lot to say about the
> > rise in National Debt. He said our national debt would never be paid. It
> > was just a matter of time before the deluge: Makers, Takers and Fakers.
>
> Weren’t people complaining about Deflation a couple-three years ago? I know
> there were some concerns, but I dismissed them at the time as more Chicken
> Little wailing — just like the wailing about Inflation.
>
> We could just go back on the gold standard? *grin*
>
> > What, if anything, is the solution to that? Hang the Congress by the
> > nearest lampost? Or is there something else available?
> >
> > Next, the Age of Unreason! He lists ten items:
> > a. I-Ching
> > b. Back-to-nature cults
> > c. the collapse of basic education (see above)
> > d. the respect granted worthless academia intent on naval gazing
> > e. “experts” on nuclear power
> > f. “experts” on ecology
> > g. people who watch television and get their opinions from it
> > h. people who simply watch television several hours a day
> > i. the return of ‘creationism’ — equal time for the great mumbo-jumbo in the sky
> > j. the return of witchcraft
> >
> > Finally, then, there’s the cancerous growth in government, coupled of
> > course with inflation, and see above.
> >
> > So, then, following this litany, there’s
> > “Over the Rainbow
> >
> > What do you think about the solutions he poses for just a few of these
> > problems?
>
> One thing that struck me is the real lack of nuclear power plant incidents
> since that book was published. The peice assumes that there are numerous
> accidents and incidents at nuke plants, so much so that the new President
> has to address the problem by basically putting the Navy in charge of them.
> Yet, aside from environmentalist complaining, there hasn’t really been any
> such rash of nuke plant incidents. I think this is another non-problem that
> people bring up from time to time because they either 1) need some cause to
> rally behind to maintain their power, or 2) need some cause to rally behind
> so that they can see themselves as a vital part of humanity and not just
> another nameless cog.
>
> > Anyone think? Anyone think there’s a solution or two in “Over the
> > Rainbow,” or any of the works that followed Expanded Universe? Short of
> > going back and starting over again with Herbert Hoover in office?
> >
> > Have we done anything right since Hoovervilles? What do you think
> > Heinlein thought?
> >
> > There’s a lot to talk about in just this one essay, and the one fiction
> > about the lady who played in Star Trek.
>
> You might keep in mind that the new (successful and laudable?) president
> basically uses the approach that is later ridiculed in Friday: “just tell
> the PTB that they’re not meeting the standards, and keep. . . ” firing “.
.
> . them until they do.”
>
> > Be nice to have some replies before Thursday, when the chat starts …
>
> The general lack of interest has me sweating. Probably my fault for not
> being coming up with a thought-provoking post such as your, David.
>
> —
> Oscagne

I think it’s an interesting topic, and if I can make it, I’ll be there. Besides, I’ve actually read most of these books!

~*~Jackie~*~

From: “Christopher A. Bohn”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:10 PM

Good evening,

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Simon Jester wrote:

> David M. Silver wrote:
> …
> > You started
> > with a hundred merits each semester. Three demerits for being late.
> > Three demerits for each class you cut.
> …
>
> So if you’re going to be even just a minute late for a class, you get the
> same penalty as if you skip it entirely?
>
> “Might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb.”

I noticed that, too, and then it struck me that by making the absence penalty no worse than the tardy penalty, they probably reduced the number of interruptions due to students showing up late.

Take care,
cb


Christopher A. Bohn ____________|____________
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/ ‘ ** ** ” (o) ” ** ** ‘
“All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the
point is to discover them.” – Galileo Galilei

From: “Sean Kennedy”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:47 PM

“Oscagne” wrote in message news:…
> Just as a reminder: This Thursday and Saturday, 8pm and 5pm (respectively)
> U.S. Central time.
>
> Suggested reading:
> Grumbles From the Grave
> Expanded Universe
> Tramp Royale
> Requiem
> Take Back Your Government
>
> any, all, some, parts, whatever. This is not going to be a _very_
> structured chat.

Unfortunately my attendance is now doubtful. My home PC is malfunctioning and the timing isn’t suitable for my work PC. If I can make it somehow I will, sounds like a good one.

Sean
(Damn mad…)

From: Jackie

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Thursday, July 24, 2003 11:17 PM

“Simon Jester” wrote in message
news:
> David M. Silver wrote:
> …
> > You started
> > with a hundred merits each semester. Three demerits for being late.
> > Three demerits for each class you cut.
> …
>
> So if you’re going to be even just a minute late for a class, you get the
> same penalty as if you skip it entirely?
>
> “Might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb.”

I once skipped school entirely because my ride to school got sick. Had I walked and missed first period, I would have had an hour and a half morning detention. By skipping school entirely, I used up an absence, but I had no actual penalties. So I might as well miss detention *and* a day of school!

~*~Jackie~*~

From: bookman

 

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, July 25, 2003 1:27 AM

“Simon Jester” wrote in message
news:
> David M. Silver wrote:
> …
> > You started
> > with a hundred merits each semester. Three demerits for being late.
> > Three demerits for each class you cut.
> …
>
> So if you’re going to be even just a minute late for a class, you get the
> same penalty as if you skip it entirely?
>
> “Might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb.”

Doesn’t address whether the parents want to pull them out, either. What if, f’rex, I wanted to send my kids to spend a day or two with my parents?

Considering that they are both teachers, and have a habit of treating most situations as educational, The teacher/child ratio is actually improved – and the children would be penalized, eh?

Nah, the “good old days” kick the current situations ass all over the place. No kids are being educated at all, they all just run wild.

Regards,

Rtb
I am slowly learing not to panic over what the
media meat-puppets are sqealing over. Chicken
Little found a new job selling ad-space.

From: David M. Silver

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, July 25, 2003 4:00 AM

In article ,
“bookman”

wrote:

> What if, f’rex, I wanted to send my kids to spend a day or two
> with my parents?

You’d write an excuse and give it to your kids upon their return to class. A visit to relatives was acceptible as an excuse. People took their kids out of school and did it all the time. So was a vacation, if the parents’ work schedule, or an event the parents considered necessary, didn’t allow it to be taken during the usual vacation days.

This was back in the days before common sense was lost to arbitrariness and “rules.” If a parent felt within a wide range of reasonableness the excuse was acceptable, who in the hell empowered some school administrator or teacher to deny them their right to raise their child a way they saw fit? If the kid missed work, and didn’t make it up, of course, that was another story. Their grades might suffer.

Of course smart parents told their kids to go tell the teacher they’d be gone and ask for homework assignments to do during the visit or vacation. Teachers rarely dared refuse to give assignments. One who tried got her knuckles crunched big time by the principal we had. That was one of the student government cases I recall in which a student contested a penalty imposed on his grade for not doing homework. He’d asked for assignments during a two-week trip his parents decided to take him back east to visit his grandparents. The teacher refused, then lowed his grade on a mid-term report card for not doing, or turning in late, assigned homework. The kid was ordinarily a straight A, scholarship awardee type. A senior with his college applications out. It turned out to be a big cause celeb — the trial was held during the two overlaping lunch periods we had in the school auditorium. Quite a few of us sat eating whatever we’d brought in our brown bags that day and watched it. Democracy in action.

The student government (Diane Asimov, the Chief Justice, a senior) listened patiently to the teacher’s reasons, whatever they were — too much trouble and a great imposition on her to have to figure out what her assignments would be ahead of time, or some such, listened afterwards to whatever it was the student jury had to say, then recommended to the principal his grade be restored to what it would have been absent the missed homework penalty — the kid had been smart enough (or his parents had been clever enought to tell him) to find out from classmates what the assignments had been when he returned and turned or tried to turn them in anyway, even when the teacher refused to accept them. [Then they mailed the completed assignments to the principal. The kid’s dad was a lawyer, one of those living up in the rich folks’ enclave in Los Feliz; and I think he had decided to go get the teacher.]

The principal ordered it restored; it was; and the teacher wasn’t teaching there the next semester. Not much of a surprise to anyone except the new teacher, wherever the hell she came from, good riddance to wherever she went.


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: Ed Reppert

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, July 25, 2003 2:16 AM

In article , David
M. Silver wrote:

> We could give them a choice. Expell them for whatever reason merits it.
> Tell them: Now, go adrift until the cops scoop you up. Or, there’s this
> diversion program that might even get you back into a school we have
> just set up we might call the Civilian Conservation Corps. Ship them
> away from their ‘homies,’ feed and cloth them, cut their hair, and help
> them find ways to burn off excess energy and get proper exercise and
> bank most of their wages until they ‘graduate,’ get a worthwhile job or
> return to school, or maybe even teach those whose attitude qualifies a
> good trade?

Works for me.

From: Ed Reppert

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, July 25, 2003 2:18 AM

In article , TreetopAngel
wrote:

> No, it won’t help anything, but neither does making them go to school.
> So what do we do about it? I am out of ideas and since none of the kids
> are mine, I don’t have much influence on them.

I like David’s idea. 🙂

> Now the ones who want to be in school are easy to talk to and they show
> genuine interest in what their future is going to hold and how to get
> what they want out of life. If only the other kids would stand still
> long enough to listen.

Heh. “An dat’s the truth!” — Edith Ann, age 5.

From: David M. Silver

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, July 25, 2003 3:30 AM

In article ,
“Simon Jester” wrote:

> David M. Silver wrote:
> …
> > You started
> > with a hundred merits each semester. Three demerits for being late.
> > Three demerits for each class you cut.
> …
>
> So if you’re going to be even just a minute late for a class, you get the
> same penalty as if you skip it entirely?
>
> “Might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb.”
>
>

Even just five seconds, Simon. It wasn’t a big crowded campus. Your obligation was: be where you’re supposed to be, on time, in proper uniform and with the proper equipment and disposition to accomplish the mission: learn.

Does that sound familiar to anyone?

And if you’d rather be hanged for a sheep as a lamb, they’d oblige you, if you did it too many times. The law said it was the parents’ obligation to keep the child in school until age sixteen. No law said they had to keep you in theirs, however. They’d boot you in a New York minute, maybe with the intermediate stops at Jackson, Riis, Kit Carson, or Betsy Ross, or El Rancho. And if you were younger than sixteen, they’d boot you just as quickly; and you know what they’d tell the parents? “Private school. You have to keep him in school until he’s sixteen, not us, unless he’s in reform school or juvenile hall. Your problem and responsibility, not ours. He’s expelled for the Los Angeles Public School System. Good day.”


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: David M. Silver

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, July 25, 2003 4:11 AM

In article ,
“Jackie” wrote:

> I once skipped school entirely because my ride to school got sick. Had I
> walked and missed first period, I would have had an hour and a half morning
> detention. By skipping school entirely, I used up an absence, but I had no
> actual penalties. So I might as well miss detention *and* a day of school!
>
> ~*~Jackie~*~

You know what boggled my mind one time. My daughter cut and got caught, so she had to serve detention. She came home at the regular time however, so I asked her, “Why did they let you out of detention?”

She replied, “Detention is held instead of class, Dad.”

“What do you do in detention?”

“We sit and do nothing.”

“Well, go do your homework.”

“I can’t get my homework today, dad. They won’t give me the assignment
because I wasn’t in class. I asked my teachers. It’s a rule.”

“Call up one of your girl friends and get your homework assignments,
now, %#@!#$%! And show me them completed before you go to bed.”

And, after my wife calmed me down, I patiently went to the next openhouse and listened to some excuse for a human being with a teaching administration graduate degree tell me that this was the way they had decided to do it at that school. Why wasn’t detention after school, as it always had been when I was a child? Not in the budget. Teachers wouldn’t be able to get home in time. Other makeweight reasons. All of which boiled down to “We don’t want to do it the old-fashioned way. We’re modern and progressive.” Is this the policy at other schools? No, we made up our own. Do you have a PTA here? No, it’s too much trouble. Teachers would have to remain for meetings after working hours.


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88M

From: “LV Poker Player”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, July 25, 2003 7:39 AM

>From: “David M. Silver”

>This was back in the days before common sense was lost to arbitrariness
>and “rules.” If a parent felt within a wide range of reasonableness the
>excuse was acceptable, who in the hell empowered some school
>administrator or teacher to deny them their right to raise their child a
>way they saw fit? If the kid missed work, and didn’t make it up, of
>course, that was another story. Their grades might suffer.

You better watch yourself David, the above shows a hint of libertarian type thought. 🙂


Ferengi rule of acquisition #192: Never cheat a Klingon…unless you’re sure
you can get away with it.

From: “Peter Scott”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:45 AM

In article ,
“David M. Silver” writes:
>In article ,
> “bookman” wrote:
>
>> What if, f’rex, I wanted to send my kids to spend a day or two
>> with my parents?
>
>You’d write an excuse and give it to your kids upon their return to
>class. A visit to relatives was acceptible as an excuse. People took
>their kids out of school and did it all the time. So was a vacation, if
>the parents’ work schedule, or an event the parents considered
>necessary, didn’t allow it to be taken during the usual vacation days.
>
>This was back in the days before common sense was lost to arbitrariness
>and “rules.”

Aye, I know what you mean. It might interest you to know that this loss was delayed according to geography. In high school in the 1970s in Britain the climate was more stringent than what you describe in many ways, and *that* was by reputation already more progressive than the system of two decades earlier.

Drugs? Unknown. The most heinous crime was to be caught smoking either on or *off* school grounds. The usual run-of-the-mill offense was running in the corridor. There was a school uniform you could obtain from selected vendors; your expression lay in choices like gray socks vs black.

How much things have changed there since, I can’t say. I noted on visits that the school had fallen into some disrepair, recently corrected. That they now have three overworked secretaries where one used to be more than enough. And that anyone coming to the school now has to check in, get a badge, and be escorted, whereas they used to be free to go wherever their business was.

> If a parent felt within a wide range of reasonableness the
>excuse was acceptable, who in the hell empowered some school
>administrator or teacher to deny them their right to raise their child a
>way they saw fit? If the kid missed work, and didn’t make it up, of
>course, that was another story. Their grades might suffer.

In my school the teachers had absolute authority. Theoretically the headmaster could overrule them. I never heard of this happening; it would have undermined the teacher’s authority. They didn’t hire teachers whose judgement they couldn’t live with. If there were any disputes between the teachers they were none of our business. If you wanted to do the right thing with respect to homework or study no teacher would refuse you for a moment.

>The student government (Diane Asimov, the Chief Justice, a senior)
>listened patiently to the teacher’s reasons, whatever they were — too
>much trouble and a great imposition on her to have to figure out what
>her assignments would be ahead of time, or some such,

Student government? It is to laugh. We were on the bottom; the teachers were on the top. Nothing polluted that principle. To help them with maintaining complete discipline, selected pupils in the eldest year were accorded the status of ‘prefect’, with special badges. They had the power to assign detention or other punishments. You might appeal their decision to the head prefect; good luck. Appealing to a teacher would have been a threat to your health; no one considered it.

Sure, some teachers were a bit wacko, but usually that was entertaining. If they imposed an unfair punishment on you, well, it was about time that you learned that life wasn’t always fair and figured out how to deal with it.

There was one purpose only at this school: to attain excellence in academics and to a lesser extent, demonstrate various forms of physical fitness via sports. Sex ed – nada. Ethics – you already had that or you wouldn’t last long. Any other activity you wanted to take part in, like orchestra or dramatics (both highly encouraged and subscribed), was outside of school time.

Including more academics. My maths (that’s how it’s said there) teacher recognized my potential and appetite, and came over to my house many nights to tutor me in advanced material so I was both challenged and could pass some exams not part of the normal curriculum. No fee requested, expected, nor paid.

Don’t think this was some re-creation of Boot Camp. You were free to debate the teachers who were open to it – some weren’t. They exercised judgement consciously, not blindly, which is more than I can say for myself when I and another boy wanted to get more access to the school’s computer terminal and enlisted the help of the son of a locksmith to get a key to the room it was kept in. He ratted us out and wrath was visited upon us. You’d think it would involve cops, or expulsion, but we happened to be model students in other respects and my maths teacher went to bat for me. Ray Fretton, wherever you are: yours was the stuff of heroes. Thank you. The most visible consequence was that I never made prefect, which was fine because I didn’t want to be one. The rest of the punishment I leave to your imagination. Side note: they suggested I stay away from my partner in this affair because he had “definite criminal tendencies.” Today he is a deacon in his church.

Whatever failings anyone might ascribe to this system – and I won’t – it was consistent and predictable. Everyone knew where they stood. What I read of schools today sends chills down my spine.


Peter Scott
Heinlein Awards Dinner @ Torcon 3:

http://www.heinleinsociety.org/AwardDinner.html

From: “Bill Dennis”

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, July 25, 2003 7:03 PM

As as I read all these anecdotes, I am reminded of a school superintendent I knew once.

Teachers are granted tenure after a certain number of years. I think it was five, it may have been as short as three. The combination of tenure and strong teacher unions makes it almost impossible to fire even the worst of the lot. Once tenure is achived, someone determined to retire on the job is almost impossible to replace.

It was this superintendent’s policy dismiss new teachers shortly before they qualified for tenure. His reasoning was as follows: Sure, they lose some good teachers that way. But most of these who lose their jobs weren’t particularly outstanding and were easilly replaced by the next batch being churned out by teachers colleges. The benefit is that over time — as tenured teachers retire — an increasingly greater percentage of the faculty are people who will do what they are told because they don’t want to lose their jobs. There was never any nonsense like refusing to give out homework assignments, or refusing to stay after school for detention duty, etc.

I must admit, I admired his ruthless logic.


William Dennis II

http://billscontent.com/weblog.php
Available for freelance writing
fax me at 1-206-830-9509

From: David M. Silver

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, July 25, 2003 7:51 PM

In article ,
“Bill Dennis” wrote:

> As as I read all these anecdotes, I am reminded of a school superintendent I
> knew once.
>
> Teachers are granted tenure after a certain number of years. I think it was
> five, it may have been as short as three. The combination of tenure and
> strong teacher unions makes it almost impossible to fire even the worst of
> the lot. Once tenure is achived, someone determined to retire on the job is
> almost impossible to replace.
>
> It was this superintendent’s policy dismiss new teachers shortly before they
> qualified for tenure. His reasoning was as follows: Sure, they lose some
> good teachers that way. But most of these who lose their jobs weren’t
> particularly outstanding and were easilly replaced by the next batch being
> churned out by teachers colleges. The benefit is that over time — as
> tenured teachers retire — an increasingly greater percentage of the faculty
> are people who will do what they are told because they don’t want to lose
> their jobs. There was never any nonsense like refusing to give out homework
> assignments, or refusing to stay after school for detention duty, etc.
>
> I must admit, I admired his ruthless logic.

So maybe the solution is to offer a wage a decent, motivated teacher should earn, in exchange for the abolition of tenure; negotiate to a good faith impasse if necessary, then take a strike to unilaterally impose it if need be.

Tenure’s worth is grossly overstated. It’s main rationale is supposed to protect ‘academic freedom.’ Maybe in Europe where it originated it was needed, although an absolute protection from termination for virutually anything is overkill and subject to misuse and abuse. Academic freedom is essentially free speech. Here we have something called the first amendment and the fourteenth amendment; and many parallel state laws. Why should teachers have *more* rights than factory workers?


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: Oscagne

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:33 PM

“David M. Silver” wrote in message
news:
> So maybe the solution is to offer a wage a decent, motivated teacher
> should earn, in exchange for the abolition of tenure; negotiate to a
> good faith impasse if necessary, then take a strike to unilaterally
> impose it if need be.
>
> Tenure’s worth is grossly overstated. It’s main rationale is supposed to
> protect ‘academic freedom.’ Maybe in Europe where it originated it was
> needed, although an absolute protection from termination for virutually
> anything is overkill and subject to misuse and abuse. Academic freedom
> is essentially free speech. Here we have something called the first
> amendment and the fourteenth amendment; and many parallel state laws.
> Why should teachers have *more* rights than factory workers?

The hole there is that the First Amendment only protects your from censorship from the government, not from your employer. I think tenure sucks, too, but we’ll have to come up with a different rationale than the FA. And the 14th only guarantees due process under the law. Again, does this apply to employers or only actions of the government?


Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
wanna read a story? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss
or see my goofy website? http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm

From: Jackie

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:57 PM

“David M. Silver” wrote in message
news:
> In article ,
> “Jackie” wrote:
>
> > I once skipped school entirely because my ride to school got sick. Had I
> > walked and missed first period, I would have had an hour and a half morning
> > detention. By skipping school entirely, I used up an absence, but I had no
> > actual penalties. So I might as well miss detention *and* a day of school!
> >
> > ~*~Jackie~*~
>
> You know what boggled my mind one time. My daughter cut and got caught,
> so she had to serve detention. She came home at the regular time
> however, so I asked her, “Why did they let you out of detention?”
>
> She replied, “Detention is held instead of class, Dad.”

Ahh, ISS. The lazy person’s alternative to actually attending class. Simply show up, curse at the teacher a few times, and be free from the class without actually receiving detention. But not having *any* afterschool detentions does seem strange. Most schools now have both. My school even has 1.5 hour morning detentions and 6 hour (2 hours a day for three weeks) Saturday detentions.

*snip*

> And, after my wife calmed me down, I patiently went to the next
> openhouse and listened to some excuse for a human being with a teaching
> administration graduate degree tell me that this was the way they had
> decided to do it at that school. Why wasn’t detention after school, as
> it always had been when I was a child? Not in the budget. Teachers
> wouldn’t be able to get home in time. Other makeweight reasons. All of
> which boiled down to “We don’t want to do it the old-fashioned way.
> We’re modern and progressive.” Is this the policy at other schools? No,
> we made up our own. Do you have a PTA here? No, it’s too much trouble.
> Teachers would have to remain for meetings after working hours.

Why should they spend the money on *useful* stuff? How dare you expect them to spend more money on discipline and academics? It would take away from… sports! After all, a better football field is just so much more useful than teachers. And there’s certainly no need for enough textbooks, when your school can spend all its money on a football field for one of the worst teams in the state.

~*~Jackie~*~

From: bookman

 

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Saturday, July 26, 2003 12:26 AM

“Jackie” wrote in message
news:bfsu7r$it7bf$

> Why should they spend the money on *useful* stuff? How dare you expect them
> to spend more money on discipline and academics? It would take away from…
> sports! After all, a better football field is just so much more useful than
> teachers. And there’s certainly no need for enough textbooks, when your
> school can spend all its money on a football field for one of the worst
> teams in the state.

And what about the “Arts”? there are those that advocate continued spending there, too. But is learning to draw or do scales inherently superior to learning to run a Draw or do an Escape? if so, why? Is it better to play an instrument than to play a sport?

I rather suspect than one of the reasons our daughter is considered to be one of the “brighter” students in her class is that we encouraged her reading and enunciation.

Sure, schools have problems today. But in my profession, correctly identifying the problem is more than 3/4 of the job. And even there, the average customer is happier paying $500.00 for a component, than $500 for my expertise.

The social dynamics of the current system/society do not compare to the “golden age” of education’s, any more than the schools do.

But that is a much more difficult discussion.

Regards,

Rusty the bookman

From: David M. Silver

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Saturday, July 26, 2003 2:50 AM

In article ,
“Jackie” wrote:

> “David M. Silver” wrote in message
> news:
> > In article ,
> > “Jackie” wrote:
> >
> > > I once skipped school entirely because my ride to school got sick. Had I
> > > walked and missed first period, I would have had an hour and a half morning
> > > detention. By skipping school entirely, I used up an absence, but I had no
> > > actual penalties. So I might as well miss detention *and* a day of school!
> > >
> > > ~*~Jackie~*~
> >
> > You know what boggled my mind one time. My daughter cut and got caught,
> > so she had to serve detention. She came home at the regular time
> > however, so I asked her, “Why did they let you out of detention?”
> >
> > She replied, “Detention is held instead of class, Dad.”
>
> Ahh, ISS. The lazy person’s alternative to actually attending class.
> Simply show up, curse at the teacher a few times, and be free from the class
> without actually receiving detention. But not having *any* afterschool
> detentions does seem strange. Most schools now have both. My school even
> has 1.5 hour morning detentions and 6 hour (2 hours a day for three weeks)
> Saturday detentions.
>

Ahh. Unvarnished babysitting. My part of the world, babysitters get paid under the table, less than minimum wage and don’t report the pennies they receive for tax purposes. Why don’t we just pay the administrators who cook up these brilliant modern educational theories and the teachers who support them those wages? Or fire them and pay them nothing? And fire the professors of education, child pyschology, etc., who teach such twaddle, at the same time?

> *snip*
>
> > And, after my wife calmed me down, I patiently went to the next
> > openhouse and listened to some excuse for a human being with a teaching
> > administration graduate degree tell me that this was the way they had
> > decided to do it at that school. Why wasn’t detention after school, as
> > it always had been when I was a child? Not in the budget. Teachers
> > wouldn’t be able to get home in time. Other makeweight reasons. All of
> > which boiled down to “We don’t want to do it the old-fashioned way.
> > We’re modern and progressive.” Is this the policy at other schools? No,
> > we made up our own. Do you have a PTA here? No, it’s too much trouble.
> > Teachers would have to remain for meetings after working hours.
>
> Why should they spend the money on *useful* stuff? How dare you expect them
> to spend more money on discipline and academics? It would take away from…
> sports! After all, a better football field is just so much more useful than
> teachers. And there’s certainly no need for enough textbooks, when your
> school can spend all its money on a football field for one of the worst
> teams in the state.
>

Didn’t say anything about the football field, Jackie. Daughter’s school was still playing football on the same lousey field my school’s team (which played on an even lousier one) used to visit to stomp the snot out of them on, once every fall. That was one of the makeweight excuses I didn’t hear that evening. You don’t think the “modern and progressive” set in graduate education supports wasting money on frills such as athletics where someone might have to teach or learn a little control or self-discipline, do you?


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: David M. Silver

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Saturday, July 26, 2003 3:11 AM

In article ,
“Oscagne” wrote:

> The hole there is that the First Amendment only protects your from
> censorship from the government, not from your employer. I think tenure
> sucks, too, but we’ll have to come up with a different rationale than the
> FA. And the 14th only guarantees due process under the law. Again, does
> this apply to employers or only actions of the government?

A public school, Oscagne, is supported by public tax dollars, including federal, inevitably. Guess what? That makes it the government, it makes its activities government action, and obliges it to conform to limitations on how it treats citizens including its own employees. PS 101 can’t legally fire teacher Mary Jones because she joins a political party and supports candidates the principal or school board doesn’t like, or urges some other disfavored political actities, during non-working time in non-working areas.

Many states have enacted labor codes which prevent employers in any private industry from discriminating against their own employess because of their exercise of free speech in protected areas, e.g., who should we elect to the school board, etc., see California Labor Code Sections 1101 and 1102 basically explained among other provisions provisions at

http://caag.state.ca.us/publications/civilrights/01CRhandbook/chapter8.htm

[ The Great State of Texas, Yippee! hasn’t passed the equivalent, you say? Didn’t your mommas listen when they tolt them not to let you all grow up to be cowboys? 😉 ]


David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, Lt.(jg), USN, R’td, 1907-88

From: William Hughes

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Saturday, July 26, 2003 7:58 AM

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 00:11:43 -0700, in alt.fan.heinlein “David M. Silver”
wrote:

> [ The Great State of Texas, Yippee!

“Bad Man’s Blunder”, Kingston Trio, IIRC

RB

From: Bill Dennis

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Saturday, July 26, 2003 4:21 AM

“David M. Silver” wrote in message
news:
> In article ,
> “Oscagne” wrote:
>
> > The hole there is that the First Amendment only protects your from
> > censorship from the government, not from your employer. I think tenure
> > sucks, too, but we’ll have to come up with a different rationale than the
> > FA. And the 14th only guarantees due process under the law. Again, does
> > this apply to employers or only actions of the government?
>
> A public school, Oscagne, is supported by public tax dollars, including
> federal, inevitably. Guess what? That makes it the government, it makes
> its activities government action, and obliges it to conform to
> limitations on how it treats citizens including its own employees.

So the courts would agree. A teacher I know — who is one of my favorite teachers, BTW — successfully sued his school district employers because he was punished for bypassing his immediate supervisors to complain to school board members about a coaching assignment.

My opinion is that to ME, the local school board is the government, but a teacher is employed by the school board, and its a violation of my rights as a taxpayer if the people I elect to manage how my money is being spent are unable to carry out their duty make sure my money is providing the best education possible.

Someone explain to me how school boards are supposed to supervise workers who cannot be disciplined because they engage in behavior that wopuld get them fired from even the most lax employer?

> PS
> 101 can’t legally fire teacher Mary Jones because she joins a political
> party and supports candidates the principal or school board doesn’t
> like, or urges some other disfavored political actities, during
> non-working time in non-working areas.

So we have what we have now — school boards who are afraid to say no to teacher’s unions. Hell, we have school board members who don’t want to say no because they were elected by teacher’s unions.

> Many states have enacted labor codes which prevent employers in any
> private industry from discriminating against their own employess because
> of their exercise of free speech in protected areas, e.g., who should we
> elect to the school board, etc., see California Labor Code Sections 1101
> and 1102 basically explained among other provisions provisions at (snip)

Funny, I used to work in a business where wearing a political button was a firing offense. I have seen that rule bent, and the newspaper always suffered for it.


William Dennis II
http://billscontent.com/weblog.php
Available for freelance writing
fax me at 1-206-830-9509

From: djinn

Subject: Re: REMINDER: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting–“Heinlein’s Non-Fiction”

Date: Saturday, July 26, 2003 7:16 AM

“Bill Dennis” wrote in
news:tSqUa.25745$:

>
> “David M. Silver” wrote in message
> news:
>> In article ,
>> “Oscagne” wrote:
>>
>> > The hole there is that the First Amendment only protects your from
>> > censorship from the government, not from your employer. I think
>> > tenure sucks, too, but we’ll have to come up with a different
>> > rationale than the
>> > FA. And the 14th only guarantees due process under the law.
>> > Again, does
>> > this apply to employers or only actions of the government?
>>
>> A public school, Oscagne, is supported by public tax dollars,
>> including federal, inevitably. Guess what? That makes it the
>> government, it makes its activities government action, and obliges it
>> to conform to limitations on how it treats citizens including its own
>> employees.
>
> So the courts would agree. A teacher I know — who is one of my
> favorite teachers, BTW — successfully sued his school district
> employers because he was punished for bypassing his immediate
> supervisors to complain to school board members about a coaching
> assignment.
>
> My opinion is that to ME, the local school board is the government,
> but a teacher is employed by the school board, and its a violation of
> my rights as a taxpayer if the people I elect to manage how my money
> is being spent are unable to carry out their duty make sure my money
> is providing the best education possible.
>
> Someone explain to me how school boards are supposed to supervise
> workers who cannot be disciplined because they engage in behavior that
> wopuld get them fired from even the most lax employer?
>
>
>> PS
>> 101 can’t legally fire teacher Mary Jones because she joins a
>> political party and supports candidates the principal or school board
>> doesn’t like, or urges some other disfavored political actities,
>> during non-working time in non-working areas.
>
> So we have what we have now — school boards who are afraid to say no
> to teacher’s unions. Hell, we have school board members who don’t want
> to say no because they were elected by teacher’s unions.
>
>> Many states have enacted labor codes which prevent employers in any
>> private industry from discriminating against their own employess
>> because of their exercise of free speech in protected areas, e.g.,
>> who should we elect to the school board, etc., see California Labor
>> Code Sections 1101 and 1102 basically explained among other
>> provisions provisions at (snip)
>
> Funny, I used to work in a business where wearing a political button
> was a firing offense. I have seen that rule bent, and the newspaper
> always suffered for it.

Most of the private companies I’ve worked with had rules about political or religious activism *in the workplace*. The rules usually stand up as long as the company ignores activism *outside* the workplace.

> —
> William Dennis II
> http://billscontent.com/weblog.php
> Available for freelance writing
> fax me at 1-206-830-9509


Better than a thousand hollow words
Is one word which brings peace Dhammapada, 8.1

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Here Begins the Discussion Log

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aggirlj has entered the room.

aggirlj: Hi David, there or just a memorex?

DavidWrightSr: Hi. I’m here, but will just be monitoring for a while. Greetings

aggirlj: Waiting for the deluge, Osc hopes. David’s the Younger on but not here it would seem.

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Jane, David. How’s it going?

aggirlj: Hi David.

DavidWrightSr: Hi there. OK by me

AGplusone: Work slowing down just a little, and feeling better?

DavidWrightSr: Somewhat.

AGplusone: Hope it does.

AGplusone: Excited about FUTL going public?

DavidWrightSr: Extremely

AGplusone: Hard to keep quiet when you know it’s coming … Eleanor decided, evidently, to publicize it. Wasn’t too surprised, but a little leery about getting into it. didn’t know she was going to do it now

AGplusone: . . . or how.

DavidWrightSr: I’m looking forward to it. Will make a great Christmas present. That is about the time isn’t it

AGplusone: I wish they’d planned to get it out before the first of the year. But yeah, a great Christmas present. buy one get it shipped after the 1st of the year.

DavidWrightSr: Well, my Christmas it on January 6 Gregorian, so it’ll go great

OscagneTX has entered the room.

OscagneTX: howdy

aggirlj: Hey Osc.

AGplusone: Remember when I was a kid. Take off Xmas holidays, then go into the junior high library and find a new Heinlein on the new books shelves. Hi, Joe

AGplusone: Guess we’re all early? Or did I screw up the notice?

DavidWrightSr: I worked in a public library branch and got them as soon as they walked in the door.

OscagneTX: still 1 hour early

DavidWrightSr: I wasn’t sure either about the time, so I thought I’d be here just to make sure

aggirlj: A might anxious and eager I guess.

AGplusone: I didn’t tell you about that last day notice I usually do, Osc, so I just put one up.

OscagneTX: That’s ok. I was planning on doing one and forgot.

AGplusone: Did we hit the mailing list, Dave?

DavidWrightSr: Nope. I’m sorry. Forgot all about it. Didn’t even remember about it until this afternoon

AGplusone: Never hurts to send one late.

DavidWrightSr: Even though I’ve been collecting the afh postings for inclusion in the log. Over 56 of them

AGplusone: they come home. Have dinner. sit down, look into their mail and find it, and say, What the heck, and drop in.

AGplusone: 56 isn’t too bad … how many on-topic?

OscagneTX: we had 56 posts to this topic?!

AGplusone: They add up on you.

AGplusone: Usually about half on topic these days, or have somethin’ to say other than “yup”

DavidWrightSr: Actually more, but I don’t catch LNC’s posts, so I didn’t include those. Only saw them in responses.

AGplusone: If you defuse the guy, sometimes you get good posts out of him; and I’ve never seen him in a chat where he caused problems, Dave.

OscagneTX: AG, I did reply to your reply, but I didn’t trust myself to write fully. LNC’s post patronized me like a child. And, other than yours, it was the meatiest post in the thread.

AGplusone: He does that — dunno why.

AGplusone: He’s a very bright, but like to be confrontational, man.

OscagneTX: I plonked him back when most of you first did, I just don’t do “i plonk you” posts. For some reason, folks unplonked him, but I never did.

DavidWrightSr: I’ve tried to de-plonk him several times, but always had to plonk him again. Just couldn’t take him.

AGplusone: I never plonked him.

AGplusone: Wrote him a letter about one thing, once, explaining about the language, and he immediately complied.

DavidWrightSr: Well, you are used to dealing with low-life types O:-)

aggirlj: I may have but didn’t know it.

AGplusone: Rubs off, don’t it.

DavidWrightSr: AFK

AGplusone: I just got a book.

OscagneTX: pictures or pop up? %^)

AGplusone: Priority mail. About the EPIC campaigns.

aggirlj: The CA fiasco or other EPIC campaigns.

OscagneTX: what’s that an acronym for?

AGplusone: The California “End Poverty In California” the ones RAH worked on.

OscagneTX: Ah.

OscagneTX: Sounds VERY lib.

SubCrid Death has entered the room.

OscagneTX: howdy.

DavidWrightSr: Ah. Made it.

AGplusone: Since FUTL is coming, and Take Back Your Gvmt! is out-of-print, we’re proposing a new edition, new forwards, and stuff, to a publisher, so it will be out about the time of FUTL

SubCrid Death: There we go. Trillian doesn’t do AOL chat rooms very well, I think

aggirlj: Okay, for the unitiatied, tell more about EPIC by RAH.

AGplusone: to ‘splain stuff about RAH and politics further

AGplusone: James and I are writing the forward and notes to it

AGplusone: So gots to study up on the campaigns he was involved in

AGplusone: Hi, SCD …

aggirlj: Hi Dan.

aggirlj: Or did I get that right.

SubCrid Death: yeah, Dan Poore

aggirlj: My notes are good, hehehehe.

AGplusone: Actually there are going to be two new non-fictions by RAH coming out, if the new edition of Take Back Your Gubmit counts as new.

aggirlj: Very timely and needed now!

SubCrid Death: heh. probably not helped by my not being on AIM frequently. Anyhow, don’t let me interrupt the chat (I may be a tad idlish though, for offline stuff)

AGplusone: Yoji Kondo is putting together the other one. Stuff out of print and some stuff, the Pournelle Niven letters never printed

AGplusone: You don’t interrupt, Dan. Speak about anything you want.

aggirlj: We haven’t officially started yet Dan.

SubCrid Death: Will the Take Back reprint include the Pournelle foreword of some editions? I’ve not read it (or the book in total), but do vaguely recall comments that the foreword didn’t exactly mesh with the message of the work itself.

starfall2 has entered the room.

starfall2: hi

aggirlj: Hi, Jackie is it.

AGplusone: No, it probably won’t. It’ll be a new edition, not tied to Ross Perot or whatever.

cvproj has entered the room.

OscagneTX: AFK… might be long, but I’ll be back before start time… 40 min. from now.

aggirlj: Hi Rusty,

AGplusone: And it’ll have some more of RAH on politics, letters, etc., in it.

cvproj: Evening.

Lucylou98 has entered the room.

QinJingYou has entered the room.

AGplusone: Hi, Rusty, Lucy, Dave

aggirlj: Hi Dave.

SubCrid Death: Ah. Of course, with or without, it’s still a lot more feasible for me to acquire a copy of the new reprint than to ebay for the $60+ copies. 😛

aggirlj: Thanks AG

Lucylou98: Hi David

AGplusone: Informal early beginning.

QinJingYou: Hi David

stephenveiss has entered the room.

AGplusone: We just chatting about anything we want now …

Lucylou98: long time since I’ve been around these parts

AGplusone: Our ‘leader’ Oscagne is away …

aggirlj: Hi Lucy.

AGplusone: WB, I was about to say

Lucylou98: hi aggirl

aggirlj:Nichelle Nichols as Pres -> accidental-type presidents -> Theo Roosevelt.

AGplusone: Talking about the tale end of Expanded Universe, where Heinlein writes “The Happy Days” ahead, all doom and gloom and concludes

AGplusone: with the little story about Nichols becoming President by accident.

AGplusone: “Over the Rainbow” is what he called it.

cvproj: When was that written?

AGplusone: ’79

OscagneTX: So how likely IS that scenario? While reading it I was rooting, but the little guy in the back of my head was thwapping me with a stick, screaming “It could never happen!”

cvproj: Ah. Conjecture – the title was chosen to show how some people could succeed

cvproj: despite the best attempts of certain do-gooders.

AGplusone: “They” put Nichols on the ticket because she was a popular twofer, black and a woman, and could act … but then the Prez bites the dust. Heh!

cvproj: Ref: Jackson’s “Raindow Coalistion”

cvproj: I have got to get thinner fingers…

AGplusone: So, what was the point of that “Over the Rainbow” fairy tale.

aggirlj: That’s in a collection is it?

OscagneTX: Expanded Universe.

cvproj: End of EU, IIRC

aggirlj: Thanks.

AGplusone: Yes, in Expanded Universe. New edition due out in October from Baen, but you can find a paperback here and there.

OscagneTX: It was part of RAH’s “world-saving” crusade.

Engr Bohn has entered the room.

Engr Bohn: good evening

OscagneTX: howdy, Major.

cvproj: ATTENTION!

AGplusone: Yo, Chris

aggirlj: HI, and belated congrats.

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

OscagneTX: WB

Engr Bohn: thanks iNF Ravnos has entered the room.

AGplusone: Randy’s senior to Chris. We don’ need to salute Majors.

BPRAL22169: Thank you. May be revolving doors for awhile

cvproj: No saluting under cover

aggirlj: Hi iNF Ravnos

Copycat669: what about us peons? iNF Ravnos: Hello

aggirlj:

AGplusone: Hi, Ravnos, welcome. Chat tonight’s about Robert Heinlein’s non-fiction, any of it.

Copycat669:

OscagneTX: howdy

cvproj:

Copycat669: I don’t think I’ve ever read any of his non-fiction

DavidWrightSr has left the chat room.

BPRAL22169: The book shows up periodically on E-bay; you just need to keep an eye out for it.

OscagneTX: That one has escaped my attention. Probably because it was published ~25 years before I was born.

GHMyst: I have the text

DavidWrightSr has entered the chat room.

OscagneTX: WB

DavidWrightSr: I got lost in hyperspace, it would seem

Copycat669: I have trouble with newsgroups.

BPRAL22169: As do we all…

OscagneTX: Okay…. I’d really like to read that, as long as it’s not illegal for me to get a copy of that.

aggirlj: lol

cvproj: Better watch that – you might wind up in the middle of the Battle of Witch Head.

Copycat669: I seem to be ok with email, but I’m just not technically savvy enough to survive.

BPRAL22169: I suspect that Acrobat reader is now widespread enough that we could actually sent PDF files of these things around.

OscagneTX: News groups are just email to a _whole bunch_ of people. %^)

Merfilly27 has entered the room.

OscagneTX: Howdy, Mer.

Merfilly27: greetings

aggirlj: Hi Steph.

AGplusone: Hi, Steph

cvproj: Evenin, Steph.

Merfilly27: I feel very welcome 🙂

Copycat669: Yeah, I know. But a whole bunch of people comunicate better with me through email lists. 🙂

Engr Bohn: hiya, Steph

starfall2: i’m back

aggirlj: An you were afraid no one would come Joe.

DavidWrightSr has left the chat room.

cvproj: WX Alert – just saw a lightning map on the Weather Channel. The Rockies are getting hammered.

aggirlj: Not here yet, Colorado Springs.

OscagneTX: Next time David comes back, somebody nail him to his chair or something.

Merfilly27: Glad it is not me this time…tired of ‘puter time bowing to Ma Nature this month

aggirlj: By the by Steph, looked up that address of that friend of yours out here. Not too far away.

Merfilly27: cool

Merfilly27: Haven’t heard from him in awhile

aggirlj: Is he in the service?

OscagneTX: So, GHM, what is the gyst of “Flight into the Future”? Or is it spoil-able?

Merfilly27: ex

aggirlj: Good.

BPRAL22169: Well, I can think of another piece of non-fiction probably few people here have read

BPRAL22169: “How to Write a Story,” vintage 1940

OscagneTX: Yet another that I’ve not seen.

BPRAL22169: Sorry, didn’t mean to step on Flight into Future

cvproj: Haven’t seen either FitF or HtWaS. Are scans available anywhere?

OscagneTX: Let’s keep this loose… there’s just so much non-fiction that it’s okay if we’re all over the map tonight.

BPRAL22169: No scans, I think.

cvproj: Drat.

Copycat669: hmmm…so much? Can you list some?

OscagneTX: Okay…

BPRAL22169: It’s a problematical with the copyright hysteria the way it is right now. anybody in the country can go into his library and with greater or lesser

BPRAL22169: effort gets photocopies of these things, but we’re prohibited from sending scans.

DavidWrightSr has entered the chat room.

OscagneTX: Expanded Universe has snippets.

OscagneTX: We included Grumbles from the Grave.

DavidWrightSr: Hello

aggirlj: Wb

OscagneTX: WB

Copycat669: Hmm..Ok. REad that but I don’t remember much that was nf

DavidWrightSr: Dave. you are going to have to fill in the gaps. I’m revolving all over the place

BPRAL22169: Five “worldsaver” articles written after WWII

OscagneTX: Tramp Royale

BPRAL22169: Take back Your Government witten in 1946 as How to be a Politician

OscagneTX: (one of my absolute favs)

BPRAL22169: Right. Tramp Royale travel book 1953-54

BPRAL22169: All Aboard the Gemini, Pop. Mech. 1962, I think.

OscagneTX: Take Back

BPRAL22169: Playboy Interview 1963

OscagneTX: Requiem, including the speeches.

BPRAL22169: Sundry and assorted interviews, including the Neil Schulman one in 1973

BPRAL22169: Right. The speeches.

OscagneTX: You ratfink researchers have seen so much more material. Pfft.

BPRAL22169: Oh, I forgot the Patrick Henry ad in 1958 — that’s in Expanded Universes

BPRAL22169: Well, Osc, that’s the up-side of researching. the down side of researching is . . . doing the research.

GHMyst: Then there is the Virtues essay

cvproj: And winding up with tons of papers and books to find shelf space for.

BPRAL22169: right — and On the Writing of Speculative Fiction. Was that the one in THE SF NOVEL?

Lucylou98: Have to make my exit….friend and I going for a run

BPRAL22169: And he did a biographical sketch of himself for a fanzine in 1949

Lucylou98: Night everyone!

Engr Bohn: g’nite

GHMyst: Virtues is in the SF Novel

cvproj: bye

Lucylou98 has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Ray Guns and Rocket Ships

BPRAL22169: Then SpecFic was in OF WORLDS BEYOND

BPRAL22169: Then there’s the blood article and the Paul Diract Article fort the Compton Yearbook in 1975 and 1976

cvproj: How about fiction based on fact? re: They Do It With Mirrors was based on an actual incident, IIRC

Engr Bohn: gotta run — might be back later

Engr Bohn: g’nite, everybody

Engr Bohn has left the room.

BPRAL22169: The Politics of Patriotism — the 1973 speech.

cvproj: ‘nite

OscagneTX: *Oscagne gets wistful-eyed for a moment: How about “Starship Troopers; the Movie” directed by George Pal? %^) Sorry… my imagination gets the best of me sometimes.

AGplusone: Take care Lisa. Hope we see you at Toronto.

BPRAL22169: Godbody intro; Startling Stories intro — the congressional testimony.

cvproj: Anything by Heinlein, directed by George Pal.

BPRAL22169: Testing in connectionwith Plastics

GHMyst: that about as non-fiction as you can get

cvproj: In another universe, no doubt. Where’s Jake Burroughs when you need him?

BPRAL22169: It just occurred to me that it’s stupid of me to try to do this from memory. Jim gifford’s ARC has a complete listing.

BPRAL22169: p. 27

OscagneTX: Okay, a whole lot more research has been done since I’ve seen it addressed last… Did any of you guys ever find out what the top secret thing on every Naval vessel that Heinlein designed was?

BPRAL22169: Ed, take it away!

GHMyst: Tha’s my project . . .an not yet

OscagneTX: Doing it from memory is the fun part. Looking it up is cheating… %^)

AGplusone: I think he just called Ed’s name

BPRAL22169: Ed = GHMyst

GHMyst: still working on it . . and working on it . . . .

OscagneTX: gotcha

BPRAL22169: Dr. Ed, actually.

GHMyst: (blush)

OscagneTX: Pardon me… I have to hunt down another Hefeweizen.

AGplusone: Has to be some sort of plotting device, Ed.

GHMyst: I disagree

AGplusone: Why, then, what?

cvproj: Why?

GHMyst: Remeber the definition is “electronic”

cvproj: Firecontrol?

OscagneTX: IHR

GHMyst: Possible

GHMyst: THe problem is I can name many posibles, but

GHMyst: can’t tie in definitely

cvproj: Involves plotting, ballistics…

BPRAL22169: Wouldn’t necessarily have to be firecontrol — and “electronic” in 1940 just meant “eletrical”; solid-state electronics didn’t exist yet

GHMyst: But tubes and kylstrons and magentrons did

OscagneTX: I went and saw the ballistic computer on the USS Texas. It was supposed to have been updated during WWII and it was very analog. Not hardly even electric, other than powering the motors.

BPRAL22169: Yes, true.

cvproj: The only major electrics on ships in that time period were radar, radio and firecontrol

GHMyst: You will forgive me if I don’t go into too

GHMyst: much detail. If I solve this I want

GHMyst: to publish the result.

Merfilly27: Understandable

OscagneTX: Were they even saying “electronic” back then? Didn’t Asimov claim to invent that word? or was that positronic?

LanaiHoward has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Oscagne, you’re back: why don’t you go through the list and we can stop and chat about them ad hoc, as we listheth

aggirlj: Hi Howard.

Merfilly27: friend has an older dictionary, from around then

LanaiHoward: hi all.

starfall2: hi, howard

GHMyst: Let us just say that the answer is by no means obvious

LanaiHoward has left the room.

Merfilly27: Electronic is not in it

OscagneTX: Howdy, Howard. Bye Howard.

Copycat669: guys, gotta run. Don’t give up on me, though. When you’re discussingstories I’ve read, I’ll be much more talkative, I’m sure…

Copycat669: 🙂

Copycat669: see ya round

Copycat669 has left the room.

OscagneTX: We posted a very limited suggested reading list, basically because I only have the mainstream non-fiction.

Merfilly27: I’ve read many of the ones mentioned, but my memory is hazy on most of them

OscagneTX: But we can go down the list from above if you’d all like.

cvproj: Fire away

OscagneTX: The one that seems to have gotten the most attention on the newsgroup is Happy Days Ahead, and its comments on the educational system.

aggirlj: brb, major and I mean major emergency next door.

OscagneTX: see ya.

SubCrid Death: Going to scoot for offline, probably won’t be back till later tonight (like 11pm-12am EDT type late)

SubCrid Death has left the room.

GHMyst: I’m afraid I must be departing as well. Thunderstorm

LanaiHoward has entered the room.

OscagneTX: So, Have the schools been degraded and/or destroyed the way Heinlein propsoed they would be?

OscagneTX: WB, Howard. iNF Ravnos: ok, I gtg class is starting, looking forward to chatting to all of you in the future

LanaiHoward has left the room. iNF Ravnos has left the room.

starfall2: personally, I think most of the schools are going very much in that direction

LanaiHoward has entered the room.

OscagneTX: Howard… don’t hit the big “x” in the corner!

cvproj: Somebody nail Howard to a chair…

GHMyst has left the room.

BPRAL22169: Oh, the bottom dropped out of high school “education” decades ago.

starfall2: superglue for howard!

LanaiHoward has left the room.

AGplusone: Caught in spinning door.

OscagneTX: he hit it.

cvproj: I see so-called high school graduates that, IMO, couldn’t pass a spelling test I took in fifth grade.

AGplusone: And everyone bitches about it and nothing is done … that’s what is so terribly frustrating.

QinJingYou: gtg, see everyone later

QinJingYou has left the room.

AGplusone: bye Dave

starfall2: bye

BPRAL22169: There’s too big an investment in Dewey-James factory education in this country.

OscagneTX: I didn’t get a chance to look this up when David Silver suggested it… what was the Heinleinian solution mentioned? Or was there one?

cvproj: NEA is a major roadblock to any change in schools – unless they propose it.

starfall2: i’ve seen high school graduates who can’t read at the level of the average 6 year old

DavidWrightSr: My son taught High School for a semester. Class was so disruptive that nothing could be done and administration did nothing to back him up. He left

OscagneTX: Don’t neglect the state orgs there, cv. TEA is just as much of a roadblock down here as NEA. Sometimes they ever gridlock each other.

cvproj: Roommates and I did some subbing in Miss. one year. Not fun.

BPRAL22169: When I was teaching remedial English in 1978 or 9, something like 80% of the incoming Freshman class at a junior college could not pass a basic English skills test.

AGplusone: the problem isn’t unions and all, it’s the “don’t you dare touch my kid” and don’t you even think about throwing him out — he’s got rights! and I’ve got rights to have you babysit him!

BPRAL22169: More than 60^ of the class scored 29 points or less.

cvproj: The mere existance of “remedial” classes in college is not good…

starfall2: no it isn’t

DavidWrightSr: Heinlein talked about that in EU didn’t he?

starfall2: especially when even the more selective colleges need them

OscagneTX: Folks… i just got my Associates at a CC. Only the lazy could fail in that school. Any student who showed the slightest interest would be helped and dragged along by the instructors because they were so grateful for interest.

AGplusone: What is anyone doing in college who cannot meet the standards for college admission? It isn’t college.

cvproj: Same experience here, when I got my AAS/Programming back in ’90.

AGplusone: It’s wasteful babysitting.

cvproj: Remember the bit in “Friday”?

AGplusone: Everyone has to have a degree in something … why?

Merfilly27: I was advocating to Kultsi and Rona while back that a vocational aptitude test would help save some of the education process

AGplusone: Yes, by legislative fiat everyone now has a degree.

LanaiHoward has entered the room.

cvproj: Because employers want some sort of hardcopy “proof” of education. Experience doesn’t count.

AGplusone: And ‘pi’ equals 3.0

Merfilly27: take a test, find out if you need a special degree or just if you’d be better served with technical/non-tech training

LanaiHoward: daring to type

starfall2: hi!

AGplusone: Screw Employers. If they can’t pick out good employees they can fire the mistakes.

OscagneTX: welcome.

LanaiHoward has left the room.

Merfilly27: maybe you can stay this time, Howard

cvproj: It worked, Howard.

starfall2: hehe

Merfilly27: nope

OscagneTX: don’t hit the damned “x” again. %^)

cvproj: oops.

OscagneTX: damn.

OscagneTX: Ok..message was too long. Texas’ head of education just announced they’re going to guarantee all H.S. graduates admission into state schools.

AGplusone: And fire all the HR staffs while they’re at it. Take about government bureaucrats

cvproj: I have ten years NatGuard time (with a _lot_ of active duty/augmentee work) as a communications tech. Can I get a job? No.

OscagneTX: And pay for it out of education funds. She said she “found a way to squeeze the money” out of her budget.

starfall2: new york guarantees admission for its own students, too

cvproj: No degree or recognised education.

AGplusone: No one can make a decision. they want pieces of paper instead of discretion

Merfilly27: Louisiana has a grades linked policy

cvproj: Bingo.

starfall2: brb

cvproj: brb – doorbell.

OscagneTX: Texas had a … graduation level based policy. Top %10 auto-admitted… to %25 had to make x score on SAT… top %50 had to make x+2 or 3 hundred SAT… etc.

AGplusone: I’ve hired secretaries with college degrees who couldn’t spell, and high school students looking for part time work who could. What ever happened to a company giving it’s own tests?

OscagneTX: I always thought it was unfair to kids in schools with several thousand students, compared to the rural schools with 50 or so students.

AGplusone: its

Merfilly27: I believe LA was actually paying full tuition at teh state schools for certain GPAs and then scaling back as the GPAs went down

AGplusone: [heh]

cvproj: Damn door-to-door salespeople.

OscagneTX: python: ………….”it’s”…………

cvproj: I want my own house where I can put up a sign – “If you can read this, you’re in range.”

AGplusone: The industries that hire don’t need degrees in anything other than technical or professional schools to hire.

cvproj: obHeinleinref – “lack of civility”

OscagneTX: Okay… My favorite non-fic is absolutely Tramp Royale. I just love the idea of Mrs. H. handing some dirty greasy (lets not get racist, this is just the humorous part) Federale a pair of pure-white gloves.

OscagneTX: “Will you please wear these while you search my luggage?”

Merfilly27: I enjoyed TR for its candidness

aggirlj: Back, but going to go now. Everyone’s alive, but one went to the hospital. gotta go hold a hand. See ya later.

OscagneTX: The next day she’d be trying to bribe Robert out of the hoosgow with several packages of cigarettes… %^)

OscagneTX: laters, Jane.

Merfilly27: later Jane

aggirlj has left the room.

LanaiHoward has entered the room.

cvproj: um… hi, Howard.

Merfilly27: maybe he can stay…let’s take bets 🙂

AGplusone: That’s an untold story I’m going to have to get from her. Wondered what happened next door. Howard … ? hi ….

AGplusone: five to one

Merfilly27: he seems to be hanging in

LanaiHoward: let’s see what this crashes…been trying variations

AGplusone: still here?

Merfilly27: and he typed

cvproj: three… two… one…

LanaiHoward: IS THIS WORKING?

cvproj: Apparently

LanaiHoward: amazing.

AGplusone: Howard speaks!

Merfilly27: welcome Howard!

BPRAL22169: I think my favorite of the non-fiction has to be This I Believe. But I get the most mileage out of “Where To?”

OscagneTX: The thing I always wondered is why they had so many problems down under. I talked to a lady who lives in NZ a while, she claims the place is nothing like that now.

AGplusone: It is working.

OscagneTX: But she LIVES there, so I don’t know how accurate that assessment is.

OscagneTX: Howard… keep the mousy-bit away from the big X in the corner, ok?

DavidWrightSr: Maybe they got the message finally

Engr Bohn has entered the room.

OscagneTX: WB, Major.

Engr Bohn: me am back

LanaiHoward: I’m on a Mac…no X. What seems to have to happen is that I use Pix’s script to go into the Lanai, NOT sign out of it, and wait for an invite.

OscagneTX: hm.

AGplusone: Hm.

cvproj: *burp*… sorry. Apples give me gas…

AGplusone: Let me send you an email, what version OS? and what version AIM?

BPRAL22169: Well — the Notebooks of L:azarus Long may be my *favorite* Heinlein. nonfiction — darn, I always have this problem ofpicking just one.

OscagneTX: LOL… cv… I have a friend whose nick is Apples. You gave me a giggle.

LanaiHoward: Mac OS 9.2, AIM 4.3.1232

OscagneTX: I never thought of that. I suppose notebooks is nonfic.

AGplusone: Should work. Used to have those two in mine.

cvproj: It true, unfortunately. i love apples (the fruit, not the computer) but the results are… unfortunate.

BPRAL22169: My favorite of them all, the one that I think is most profound: “Always store beer in a dark place.”

AGplusone: So your brother can’t find it.

BPRAL22169: Actually, I’ve seen even more profound aphorisms, both on buses. SF’s Muni: To get out, wait for light, then push handle.

BPRAL22169: and Golden Gate Transit: Be careful of head.

OscagneTX: Oh, no. The best of notebooks is “Beware of strong drink: it can make you shoot at revenoors… and miss.”

BPRAL22169: I just found RAH’s story file — he’s got dozens more of these that didn’t make it into the book.

LanaiHoward: Some Air Canada planes, have on the bulkhead, “If you cannot read this contact a crew member.”

OscagneTX: I’m careful every time I encounter head.

BPRAL22169: Perhaps it was “Be careful with your head” — sound advice at all times.

OscagneTX: Quick sign joke: Term D at IAH used to the the “Mickey Leland IAB terminal”. There was a sign that id’ed it as such at every gate. Someone scratched off some of the letters on one to read, “Welcome to Micky

Land”.

Sarah Hoyt has entered the room.

Sarah Hoyt: Hi.

OscagneTX: I actually heard a lady say, “We were supposed to go to Houston, not Disneyland.”

AGplusone: Hi, Sarah.

starfall2: hi

Sarah Hoyt: Just saying “hi” and now I’ll run and hope I’ll be back in time (Flash to “door into summer.”

OscagneTX: howdy, Sarah.

LanaiHoward: Osc, if you want evidence of M$ monopoly, find an airport that’s not filled with signs saying “To Gates”

cvproj: wilkommen

BPRAL22169: bienvenue, welcome!

cvproj: Y’know, I’ve been in many airports.

OscagneTX: That one’s growing whiskers, Howard. %^)

BPRAL22169: in Cabaret, au cabaret, to Cabaret!

Engr Bohn: I was once on a flight that, as it approached the terminal, several passengers started getting up to retrieve their belongings from the overhead — the captain made an announcement…

cvproj: I see corridors, doors, arches, etc. There ain’t no damn gates!

BPRAL22169: (Where’s Joel Grey when you need him)

Sarah Hoyt: in Cabaret, au cabaret, to Cabaret!

Engr Bohn: “Ladies and gentlemen, if you’re standing then you should have a very good view of our ‘fasten seatbelts’ signs

BPRAL22169: That’s cute. Irony is *just* what you want to hear in a captain.

BPRAL22169: meine Herren und Damen — Ladies UND gentlemen!

OscagneTX: Oh lord. I do security at the FAA tower here. I’ve got a bunch of Idiot Pilot stories.

cvproj: Had a flight attendant say, after the life vest lecture – that thedeepest water we would be flying over was her father’s swimming pool.

BPRAL22169: That’s fine — we already knew trhe deepest water wasnt in the minds of the crew.

OscagneTX: anyway. According to TR, Ginny was very afraid to fly. Is that something you-who-know-her can comment on?

AGplusone: i always wanted to ask if we could take the ‘flotation devices’ home to use at the beach.

cvproj: I don’t mind flying so much. It’s the takeoffs and landing that scare me spitless. Damned Indian territory…

AGplusone: Dunno. written in 1950 … lots of people were afraid to fly

AGplusone: She certainly flew around more than a bit with RAH when they were doing blood drives

Engr Bohn: RB

cvproj: Yes?

Engr Bohn: sorry — computer screwed up

BPRAL22169: ISTR Ginny wasn’t afraid to fly — though she had some unpleasant experiences; She was afraid to fly over the ocean

Merfilly27: My granny was terrified of it, but had something in Hawaii to attend…durn near could not get her off the plane once she had

Merfilly27: Loved it after

BPRAL22169: So they alwas took the ocean legs of their voyages by ship.

AGplusone: But I’m thinking about a general attitude in the 50s. Lot of people were frightened of the wings falling off.

BPRAL22169: And then they would fly ad lib the rest of the time.

OscagneTX: I love the take-off and landings… you can look at the ground and see you’re going so FAST.

Merfilly27: That’s me too Osc

cvproj: Another thing that has succumbed to “progress” – the transAtlantic voyage.

LanaiHoward: My major objection to transoceanic flight is Air France. When potential dates now ask me if “:I have baggage”, I just tell them I’ll take two segments on AF and I won’t.

OscagneTX: They really seemed to enjoy their freighter voyages, didn’t they?

Merfilly27: With my original plans to go live in Aussie have bit the dust, I think I’ll retire on a house boat and float around the world

AGplusone: A trimaran, Filly

BPRAL22169: Well, you know Napoleon’s saying : two Air France segments equal oen battle.

OscagneTX: Which brings up IWFNE, doesn’t it? %^)

Merfilly27: Means my kids won’t have to worry about me popping into their business constantly 🙂

Engr Bohn: I was trying to find a reference — but there’s too much chaff on the search — I was thinking of a hijacked flight a few years ago that took off & was suppose to land in Africa, but a hijacker wanted to go to Australia

Engr Bohn: — insufficient fuel and the pilot ditched on the African coast — I think they weren’t expecting deep water, either

OscagneTX: They won’t be on the boat?

AGplusone: How can you talk about RAH’s non-fiction without going into his fiction where he took virttually everything and used it.

OscagneTX: Just think.. you… the kids… the kids’ significant others…

Merfilly27: they won’t be on the boat

AGplusone: A plank. words, captain’s rights to make the crew walk it …. hehehehe.

LanaiHoward: Cb, IIRC it was off Madagascar….think a 767.

Engr Bohn: I was thinking 757

Engr Bohn: lemme search again…

Merfilly27: Friday shows their voyages as well

OscagneTX: Which is why we’ll stay informal, David. Loose and free, and if fiction creeps in, we’ll give it a drink and ask it to be nice and play with the other literature.

OscagneTX: CB that was a 737.

LanaiHoward: I still cherish the Greek hijacker who commandeered the Athens flight and ordered it go to Athens. When he figured out what was going on, he decided to swallow his crucifix…chain still attached.

OscagneTX: Hijackers thought they could just make the pilot believe the fuel would stretch or something. Idiots.

Engr Bohn: 767 http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9611/23/hijack.ethiopia.update/

OscagneTX: Damn. I would have sworn that was a 73 when I saw the video.

AGplusone: That’s why there whould be a separate emergency exist for each passenger, right out the bottom, so they can take their flotation devices along with them.

Engr Bohn: from a distance, without a scale referent, they’re easy to confuse

AGplusone: Of course you’d want to keep the stewarii away from the eject buttons. Usually.

cvproj: wb, sarah

AGplusone: How ’bout a ten minute potty and cat watering break, Osc?

OscagneTX: Okie dokey.

LanaiHoward: wouldn’t it be more efficient to water the litter box?

cvproj: Eliminate the middle man?

Merfilly27: Osc, how’s the writing going lately?

AGplusone: Not if you want my cat to allow you to live to see tomorrow.

OscagneTX: Only if you had a very un-fussy cat. Our would probably fling the unwanted clumps out of the box.

AGplusone: He’s very fussy and has a very bad vocabulary.

OscagneTX: Oh, Steph, I don’t hardly write anymore.

OscagneTX: All that stuff I posted was about a year old. Even Hiram.

Merfilly27: I see

Merfilly27: I’ve been finding myself technologically stymied

AGplusone: I liked the one you had the satellite come down on the White House, Osc.

OscagneTX: I probably ought to get back into it, but its hard to make the hamsters run in the wheel these days.

OscagneTX: I tried to be Heinleinian in my stories. That was my very very first, David.

AGplusone: Cherce! I thought when I read it.

Merfilly27: I need a user interface that allows me to ‘write’ with a stylus and have the computer type it

OscagneTX: All of my stories have been turned down by 11 or 12 different markets. I know I ought to keep writing, but the rejection folder is getting pretty thick.

LanaiHoward: one of these days, I’ll make the transition to fiction. I’ve at least done a new ms in a different nonfiction area.

AGplusone: Shame Sarah isn’t here.

Merfilly27: We submitted one time and found out they had cancelled the whole series of books they had requested for 🙂

AGplusone: She’s gone through that …

OscagneTX: One actually critiqued me. “I didn’t get past the third paragraph. You put a horrid info dump there. It revulsed me.” Or words to that effect.

AGplusone: I finally broke down and read a John Ringo last night.

AGplusone: Love what he does with RAH’s suits.

OscagneTX: I think I’ve read one of his, an ebook from the Baen free library, but I dont’ even remember the name.

Dehede011 has entered the room.

OscagneTX: WB

AGplusone: The future mil SF type of story. WEB Griffin + RAH

Merfilly27: hey Ron

Dehede011: Hi folks, I made a mistake on the first invitation. :-((

Dehede011: Hi Steph

AGplusone: Enjoyed it a bit. He wrote a nice complicated story that you could tell was setting up a multi-volume series ….

Merfilly27: we’re on break

Dehede011: Dave S. I was just reading Janes Defense Weekly the entire future of the Military is SF

OscagneTX: Ooo Ooo… WEB Griffin is my big thing these days. I’ve read about 1/3 of his stuff.

AGplusone: WEll, we knew that.

OscagneTX: If I can track him down, I’m going to invite him to one of these.

AGplusone: He’s easy. He comes to some of them. Panther505

Dehede011: Yes, but despite thinking I was an up to date engineering type I got my eyebrows raised

AGplusone: I think Dave’s got him on the mailing list.

OscagneTX: David… WEBG = Panther505?

AGplusone: Ringo is Pnthr505 on AIM. He’s attended some of our chats.

LanaiHoward: A few years ago, the Washington Post did a feature on Griffin’s (real name Bill Butterworth)’s writing empire…IIRC he has around 200 books under various names, including bodice-rippers

OscagneTX: Ahhh.

AGplusone: 505th P.I.R. was what he served in when he was in.

OscagneTX: Griffin or Ringo?

AGplusone: I loved finding that out, Howard. All kinds of stuff.

AGplusone: Ringo

Engr Bohn has left the room.

LanaiHoward: Totally different when Griffin/Butterworth was writing the M*A*S*H parodies.

AGplusone: Griffin was a Korean era who became a civilian employee of the Army Aviation types at Rucker.

AGplusone: Buttersworth …

AGplusone: William E. Buttersworth

AGplusone: hence, WEB

OscagneTX: Oh. Teresa and Stephanie talked me into deleting the last couple sentences of that story of mine, David. Now it ends with the two jackasses looking up as the “falling star” gets brighter and brighter.

OscagneTX: end result left as an exercise for the reader.

AGplusone: Not much an exercise. Why I thought it was cherce.

Merfilly27: hey, I didn’t twist the arm…

Merfilly27: 🙂

cvproj: It’s been done. “… the stars were going out.” ACClarke

OscagneTX: I tend to be dense, and I guess expected the readers to be just as dense.

OscagneTX: Sooooooooooo….

OscagneTX: Next on the list?

AGplusone: We’re talking about one of Oscagne’s stories that he poted on a part of his website.

AGplusone: potted, posted, put

Merfilly27: Osc posted some very good material

OscagneTX: David, tell me you didn’t look at my whole website. Some of that stuff is plain embarasing. Steph had me put it up.

OscagneTX: Different Steph.

OscagneTX: I’m married to that one.

Merfilly27: again blaming the pregnant woman who, by definition, is not responsible for her actions

Merfilly27: oh, ok

AGplusone: What about RAH’s notions that a currency should be stablized?

OscagneTX: I mean… unless you just WANT to come to texas and live in a 1 bedroom apartment. We might have to give you a nick-name, though, since I’ve already got a Stephanie. %^)

AGplusone: Anyone read that part of “The Happy Days Ahead”?

DavidWrightSr: David AG: John is on my mailing list

Merfilly27: lol

AGplusone: Howard?

MrBillDennis2nd has entered the room.

MrBillDennis2nd: Hello

LanaiHoward has left the room.

OscagneTX: I’v e read it, but I don’t recallit offhand.

DavidWrightSr: There he goes again!

OscagneTX: Well, Hell. Bill kicked Howard out.

Merfilly27: stabilized how is my question

OscagneTX: Howdy, Bill.

MrBillDennis2nd:

Merfilly27: Having grown up with naught but steady inflation

OscagneTX: David, are we still referring to the Nichelle Nichols adventure. IIRC, she set the US back on the gold standard at $350/ounce or something.

AGplusone: that was one thing she did

AGplusone: since it followed the Happy Days Ahead complaints.

MrBillDennis2nd: Did RAH ever meet N.N. personally?

AGplusone: Whay would that be either good or bad and for whom.

OscagneTX: You know, I’m a relative youngster. The US has been off gold standard so long, it’s not much in my mind. And inflation doesn’t much scare me, as long as cost-of-living raises keep pace with cost-of-living.

AGplusone: but do they?

AGplusone: ever?

DavidWrightSr: No raises for me this year. I work for the state.

AGplusone: I’m retired

OscagneTX: 1930’s-German type inflation would scare the excrement out of me, but I’ve done ok so far, and I’m just “a lousy guard”.

Merfilly27: Osc, we don’t get COLAs in a lot of jobs I’ve held

AGplusone: And how did your boss compute the COL this year?

AGplusone: which COL or cola?

AGplusone: BLS’s?

OscagneTX: My union handles it and negotiates COL with my employer and the gov’t.

Merfilly27: sorry, Cost of Living

AGplusone: And what makes you think the BLS’s COLA isn’t crooked?

OscagneTX: BLS?

AGplusone: Bureau of Labor Statistics. Your friendly gvt agency that computes the COLA

OscagneTX: Ah. I don’t think we rely on them. My union rep polls for industry maximum. If we’re at the top already (happened once) she asks for $.25/hr more on the next contract.

AGplusone: That your union, with jaundiced eye, I hope, relies upon.

OscagneTX: If not, she asks for industry max.

AGplusone: But where does the industry max come from?

starfall2: i’ve got to go now… bye!

starfall2 has left the room.

OscagneTX: It pushes itself up, because when we became industry max, all the other accounts started asking for our wage. Then they got ahead of us and we asked for theirs.

AGplusone: bye

OscagneTX: Their is some scaling done by location, and I’d bet that THAT’s set by BLS, since we’re a gov’t contractor.

cvproj: I have to run, too. Promised the boss some graphics work for tomorrow.

AGplusone: don’t sound very scientific to me, sounds like relative strenght of bargaining positions.

OscagneTX: g’night.

OscagneTX: That’s what it is, David.

MrBillDennis2nd: Night … I must have arrived late ….

OscagneTX: not scientific at all. But it’s working.

cvproj has left the room.

OscagneTX: g’night Bill.

AGplusone: Why have to worry about what fluctuations are happening in the value of money.

OscagneTX: Plus, this is the first contract I’ve ever been on that had a union. You don’t find them much around here in the security biz.

AGplusone: What if: money was pegged to something that everyone knew would remain the same relative to the worth of all else?

OscagneTX: David, truthfully, I’ve just never been forced to take it into account.

AGplusone: I know that. Which is why I wondered.

Merfilly27: that would be too stringent and the economy would stagnate

AGplusone: Sez who?

Merfilly27: according to every economics class I ever had

Merfilly27: 🙂

AGplusone: And why?

OscagneTX: Five years ago I was getting $6.50/hr. Through promotions and changing jobs I’m now getting $16.97/hr. I’ve stayed ahead of inflation.

Merfilly27: they tried to tell me that inflation is actually healthy

AGplusone: What takes money out of circulation?

Merfilly27: In this house, fear of not being able to buy groceries next week 🙂

OscagneTX: I know a couple/three years ago the talking heads were scared of deflation.

AGplusone: burying it in the back yard then for fear of rainy day?

OscagneTX: So I’ve taken it as meaningless kvetching (to put it in another’s words).

Merfilly27: I know people who do that in this area

MrBillDennis2nd: I’ve seen doomsday deflation warnings as recently as last month.

Merfilly27: Do you think the tax relief checks actually help the economy?

AGplusone: And that does what, reduces sales, resulting in lay offs, etc.?

Merfilly27: must spend to keep people employed

Merfilly27: it’s a catch 22

Dehede011: Why aren’t the people that “bury their money in the backyard” doing the rest of us a favor??

OscagneTX: Another thing I’ve learned from Turtledove (oh shut up, I read what’s fun) is the best place to store inflationary cash is in possessions.

Merfilly27: Heinlein seemed to echo that

Merfilly27: remember in NOTB, they converted to gold necklaces, etc

OscagneTX: yup. If you take LL’s words for his, all you have to do is read the first bit of the Tale of the Adopted Daughter.

Merfilly27: to carry valuta from one place to the next

MrBillDennis2nd: Hey .. don’t apologize for reading Turtledove. I am eagerly awaiting the next Worldswar novel …

OscagneTX: Did we drown you out, David?

AGplusone: And the banker LL played in Tale of the AD used his pen to invent money from time to time, didn’t he?

Merfilly27: yes

BPRAL22169: Social credit theory.

OscagneTX: Not apologising for reading it, apologising for taking life-lessons from it. It (AFAICT) a cardinal sin. %^)

BPRAL22169: Keep money supply equal to total wealth in the economy.

AGplusone: and so long as people thought the money was in the ‘bank’ they were happy and what happened?

OscagneTX: Is THAT Social Credit theory?

BPRAL22169: Well — Heinlein’s main version of it.

Smn Jester has entered the room.

AGplusone: part of it

OscagneTX: I keep trying to get my boss to understand that the answer is NOT “print more money and give it to poor people”.

BPRAL22169: LL didn’t have fractional reserve banking, either.

AGplusone: Tell em what fractional reserve banking is, please, Bill

OscagneTX: yes, do.

Smn Jester: *waiting with baited breathe*

Dehede011: In 25 words or less :-))

Smn Jester: Of one sylababble…

OscagneTX: Howdy, Simon.

BPRAL22169: Let’s see — you can loan out more money than you have in deposits and keep the difference when they pay it back.

BPRAL22169: how’s that?

MrBillDennis2nd: If you are the *real* Simon Jester ….

Smn Jester: Hiya! I finally remembered what day and time it was…

AGplusone: Pretty good. Bank get rich doing that, huh?

BPRAL22169: It creates money out of nothing, and thebanks get it all, whoopee!

OscagneTX: Pretty late in britisherland?

Smn Jester: I’m a smart a**, hyper intelligent and like bad jokes. Close enough?

BPRAL22169: When Abraham Lincoln found out about this, he said “if the people of this country knew how the banks were really run, there would be revoltuion to morrow.”

MrBillDennis2nd: Good old wealth creation, eh?

AGplusone: Gotta talk to you, btw, why you want to come to Toronto, Simon.

Smn Jester: Bah, bean counters…

OscagneTX: No, that describes Mycroft. You’d have to be ridiculing tyranny and stuff to by Simon.

AGplusone: Still runs that way, doesn’t it?

Smn Jester: Why? for the food of course… And blood. Rhetoric and Love are optional, but blood is required…

OscagneTX: Um. Toronto is famous for its food?

BPRAL22169: Yes — I think the fraction has gone down to 5%

AGplusone: So what we have is banks running economy to suit themselves …

BPRAL22169: Best veal pie I ever had was in Tronna

AGplusone: 5% of what, 100 zillion dollars?

Smn Jester: Yeah. I love Ginsburgs and Wongs. Chinese and Jewish restaraunt.

BPRAL22169: Yes.

Dehede011: The top of the CNN Tower

BPRAL22169: No, you can loan out 20x what you have in deposits.

MrBillDennis2nd: *Sign* I can’t eat Chinese any more.

OscagneTX: So what’s the diff between that and just printing and distributing money?

AGplusone: so, 96% of money is imaginary?

OscagneTX: OH, I get it.

Smn Jester: Hasn’t anyone seen “It’s a Wondeful Life”? The money doesn’t really exist in the bank.

BPRAL22169: They don’t print it. It’s essentially the same thing — a tax that goes to banks instead of the government.

AGplusone: It comes out of the inkwell.

AGplusone: Wanna reduce taxes?

BPRAL22169: That’s why the government wanted to get into banking in the early 19th century.

AGplusone: Nationalize the banks.

Smn Jester: Thars money in them thar bills…

MrBillDennis2nd: A. Hamilton’s big idea …

Merfilly27: Think that was what Hamilton was thinking of way back when?

Merfilly27: gmta

MrBillDennis2nd: apparently

BPRAL22169: Yeah — one of the reasons I was willing to give up alexander Hamilton’s place in America’s top 20 so Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony could get on the list

MrBillDennis2nd: I saw a great documentary on them on PBS recently …

MrBillDennis2nd: ECS and SBA

Dehede011: Yeah, and according to a von Mises columnist this morning, after Hamilton, the next biggie was Bismark,

OscagneTX: eh.. Susan’s dollar was only worth .25 in the machine.

BPRAL22169: Ken Burnsdid a good one.

MrBillDennis2nd: I thought his baseball doc. was overly sentimental …

OscagneTX: Overly Sentimental. You did see the Civil War doc?

AGplusone: Anyone know what the GNP is today?

Merfilly27: not me

MrBillDennis2nd: I watched as much of it as I could. I used to work very irregular hours

Dehede011: Several Trillion??

OscagneTX: 53 zazzillion deutchmarks.

Merfilly27: I gave up trying to make sense of the economy

MrBillDennis2nd: I thought it was good. CW is an overly senitmental subject, however.

BPRAL22169: That’s why God made VCRs

AGplusone: That’s why A. Lincoln said, “if the people ever find out about it … ”

MrBillDennis2nd: It’s funny. I am fairly well versed with computers, but I cannot work a VCR

OscagneTX: I dunno. I’d almost class it with “Gods and Generals”. And I couldn’t finish that.

AGplusone: No one wants you to be able to make sense out of economics.

Dehede011: Nor investing

MrBillDennis2nd: But I concede that I have a hard time with any depiction of the South as the good guys …

MrBillDennis2nd: … I am a resident of the Land of Lincoln

Smn Jester: It’s all in persepctive.

OscagneTX: Okay… this brings us back on topic. How about working towards Nichol’s “uncle’s” “Plain Speech Amendment”?

OscagneTX: It would destroy the IRS.

AGplusone: No one wants you to be able to make sense out of the lawk, either.

Smn Jester: *stiffling a cheer*

Merfilly27: lawk?

Merfilly27: 🙂

MrBillDennis2nd: It would destroy the tax prepeation industry

Dehede011: Guys and gals, I just finished the prep course for taking the IRS’s EA exam tonight

OscagneTX: the tax preparation industry are still accountants. Coudln’t they find work?

OscagneTX: I’m sorry, D.

Merfilly27: not many of your HR Blockers

Merfilly27: or Jackson Hewitt

AGplusone: honest work … like shaman?

MrBillDennis2nd: Why hire accountants if there is no IRS? 😉

AGplusone: or prostitute

Merfilly27: they are trained only to do taxes in many cases, and could not do CPA stuff without going back to school

OscagneTX: Ah, hell. Lets just set it up like Beulahland.

Dehede011: Plenty of reasons to hire accountants

Smn Jester: I don’t hire an accountant. A nurse who works part time and a computer program do my taxes.

AGplusone: Yep. Social workers and child shrinks first, then you can come after me and my ilk.

MrBillDennis2nd: I don’t make enough money to need an accountant….

MrBillDennis2nd: mixed blessings …

OscagneTX: I did my taxes on paper last time. And even figured that the standard deduct did me better than itemizing. I was proud of that arithmetic.

Dehede011: In TSBTSS Heinlein proposed learning law just to understand how to manuever in a society — I propose learning taxes.

OscagneTX: Law is taxes, to some extent.

OscagneTX: One would be adjuct to the other, no?

MrBillDennis2nd: In TSBTSS, the characters lived well into their 100s. They had the time …

Dehede011: They overlap

Merfilly27: knowing the law helps you know how to cover your tracks, and when

AGplusone: otoh, there’s always Fiddler’s Green

AGplusone: and when they get close enough to see your smoke, move on …

Smn Jester: What if the sneak up on you?

Merfilly27: do unto others….and don’t get caught work for me

BPRAL22169: I think that was said of Daniel Boone, wasn’t it?

AGplusone: The Prarie

Smn Jester: They tunnel…

AGplusone: Why hang around Ithaca. Very boring there.

MrBillDennis2nd: Daniel Boone had a very sad life, there towards the end.

Smn Jester: Yeah, but he went out with a bang.

Smn Jester: Probably several…

Sarah Hoyt: I’m back — I think. Catching up.

MrBillDennis2nd: You are thinking of Davey Crocket …

AGplusone: Sure you’re not confusing him with Crockett, Simon.

Dehede011: How was DB’s life sad??

MrBillDennis2nd: Boone died in relative poverty ..

Smn Jester: Appy polly loggies; was thinking of the Alamo.

Dehede011: Are you sure, that house of his in Mo. doesn’t look poverty stricken at all

AGplusone: He lost everything he had in Kaintuck, and just moved on to start again in Missouri, the next frontier.

MrBillDennis2nd: running away from creditors

Smn Jester: And editors…

AGplusone: Don’t know he was particularly sad.

Dehede011: And did very well in MO.

AGplusone: ‘jest startin’ over

OscagneTX: Yeah, had to be Crocket. I don’t even konw how Boone died.

AGplusone: Fictional version is Fennimore Cooper’s The Prarie

Sarah Hoyt: Um… are you discussing forming own society?

Dehede011: In bed, just SW of St. Louis in a three story stone house attended by slaves

MrBillDennis2nd: Crockett is one of my heroes … I forgot to include him on my list. Not so much by hor he dies, but how he stood up for what was right when in Congress.

OscagneTX: Well that probably wasn’t sad. Not nearly as sad as Crockett.

Smn Jester: List?

Dehede011: Acting as County Judge and Administrator under the Spanish

MrBillDennis2nd: Boone? Then my assumptions were wrong. I knew he had to move alot toward the end because of bad business deals.

OscagneTX: I still need to take my wife to the Alamo. She’s from Oregon, and doesn’t quite understand it, I think.

AGplusone: No doubt about that…but he had a frontier to move to Bill, and did reasonably well ever at an old age.

Dehede011: Well, Ky land titles were notorious for their undependability

Sarah Hoyt: From what I understand, Boone moved, because compeled to move. I mean, internal. But maybe I’m reading the wrong kind of psychobabble.

MrBillDennis2nd: I’ve been to the Alamo. It’s tiny. Now completely surrounded by city.

Dehede011: Boone was only one of many that went broke on them

Sarah Hoyt: Spent a week at the Alamo, about six years ago.

OscagneTX: Oh, yeah. Been there twice. But I got chills standing in the Long Barracks.

Dehede011: brb 20 sec

OscagneTX: Most of it isn’t there any more. But some pretty important parts are.

BPRAL22169: I just looked up Boone; he was asked why he left KY and he said “too crowded.” He failed to prove his land grants and lost them — Missouri too.

BPRAL22169: RAH, incidentally, was distantly related to Boone.

MrBillDennis2nd: Crockett opposed Indian relocation, causign a rift between him and Andrew Jackson, his political patron. Cost him an election.

Dehede011: Back

Smn Jester: Screwed by the government again…

OscagneTX: “You can all go to Hell. I’m going to Texas.”

BPRAL22169: something like sixth cousin once removed.

Dehede011: Bill, Boone gets a little hard to figure out in Mo.

OscagneTX: Crocketts concession speech.

MrBillDennis2nd: I am supposedly related to F.F. John Adams … but this is family lore. I know for a fact that one ancestor was a Col. Lyons who owned slaves in Virginia and fought in C.W.

BPRAL22169: He’s descended from George, whose sister married Dan’l Boone’s brother (I think); it may have been father.

Smn Jester: Anyone see that year book of RAHs that was for sale on eBay?

OscagneTX: No I missed it.

Sarah Hoyt: I was very moved by the Alamo — however have failed to turn it into a story, which was my hope.

BPRAL22169: The Centralian? Yeah.

OscagneTX: I guess THAT is pretty close to being non-fiction… %^)

Smn Jester: Yeah, I just didn’t have the three hundred bucks to toss that it sold for.

OscagneTX: Sarah, it was mentioned earlier (please forgive me, I’m newish at this), you are an honest-to-ghod author?

BPRAL22169: Ha. I work with his personal copy.

MrBillDennis2nd: Geeze … they are showing pics of Saddam’s dead sons on the T.V. …

Smn Jester: *thumbing nose*

OscagneTX: pfft.

Smn Jester: Disgusting those pics are…

OscagneTX: Necessary, though. At least in Iraq.

OscagneTX: Master Yoda.

Smn Jester: Saying that since they weren’t soldiers that it isn’t aginst the Geneva Convention.

BPRAL22169: We are planning to do an exhbit page on the UC Santa Cruz website, and I’ve asked to have a photo carousel, so some unusual picture may wind up ther.

Sarah Hoyt: Oscagne — sorry don’t remember name behind handle — author. As for honest, I think they’d drum me out of the profession. I mean, we tell lies for a living

MrBillDennis2nd: I know what it is tactical necessity to show pics, but still … we raised a fuss when Arab-language TV did it.

Smn Jester: Yup.

Dehede011: Sarah, you tell stories.

Sarah Hoyt: I tell lies for money. 🙂

Sarah Hoyt: Not much money so far, but getting better.

Dehede011: Yes, I only tell them for fun, so far

AGplusone: World is getting too PC. A century ago, the British Raj would hang the bodies in the central square of Bagdad until they rotted and the bones fell apart.

Sarah Hoyt: Well — they are fun too.

Sarah Hoyt: I hope.

MrBillDennis2nd: I used to be a reporter .. which meant I told other people’s lies for money. 😉

OscagneTX: Sarah, what kind of story were you trying to get from Alamo? Um. I’ve been rejected a LOT, so I’m almost, but not quite, unentirely, unlike an author. I might could help, seeing as how I live here.

Smn Jester: The only time I wasn’t rejected, the Mag went under.

Sarah Hoyt: It’s getting a little difficult to keep doing a fun job, when there are pressures to tell the stories other people want me to tell. It’s a fine line and sometimes I lose it.

Smn Jester: Shortly thereafter…

Sarah Hoyt: Well — first story I sold, I sold four times. Four magazines went under. In one the editor died. It’s all in the persistence.

AGplusone: Which reminds me of the Twins tale in TEFL. Stick the robber’s head on a pike fence in front, until it rots then replace it with a rubber one.

Dehede011: Heck, I’ll bet I made the biggest “Beginners Mistake.” I wrote a sequel that clearly required the prequel first. LOL

Sarah Hoyt: I don’t actually know what story I was trying to get. Probably sf/f, as that’s what I mostly write, though I stray into mystery on occasion. I was just sure there was a story there. But so far nothing. Then again, often there is

Sarah Hoyt: a ten year lag time between an itch for a story and the actual story.

Smn Jester: A friend of mine wants to write a nonfiction boook. On astrology. I said I would, but I must shower several times after each session.

Dehede011: But if the first in the series sells — I will set a record for the short time required to get the sequel out.

MrBillDennis2nd: Dehede: George Lucas did fairly well with that approach …

OscagneTX: At least I can say David like one of my stories. That’s good enough for me. %^) Oh, and let’s not forget Stephanie. She’s unforgettable.

Sarah Hoyt: Um… The first few books I wrote were set in this world where I had twenty generations worth of history worked out before hand. They didn’t sell. 🙂

Merfilly27: Thank you

Dehede011: That is a shame

AGplusone: Chuck Krin says hi everyone

OscagneTX: Howdy, Chuck.

Sarah Hoyt: I have a friend who is writing history according to her. No. Pre-history according to her. Her book is full of sentences like — there is this undulating symbol in the walls of caves in Europe. Obviously, it was made by

Smn Jester: Whats up, Chuck?

Sarah Hoyt: austhrolopithecines.

Dehede011: LOL

Sarah Hoyt: She’s been writing this for six years. I don’t know why.

Sarah Hoyt: She was okay before that….

Dehede011: Do you publish as Sarah Hoyt??

Sarah Hoyt: Sarah A. Hoyt

Sarah Hoyt: Was in the last Analog — might still be on the stands.

MrBillDennis2nd: Barnes and Noble here I come.

Dehede011: Great, that will probably entice to buy Analog again

Smn Jester: Never shout greetings to your friend John at the airport using his nickname…

Sarah Hoyt: And another dozen places. Two novels out, one coming out in November, two proposed in the same series. And then there’s the cursed African novel, which should be done soon, at last.

OscagneTX: No kidding? I’ve been rejected by Analog 12 times. I’ve come to the conclusion they just don’t publish good stories. %^)

Smn Jester: Gordon has rejected me twice. Sent me notes both times though.

MrBillDennis2nd: Obviously …

Sarah Hoyt: Um… You have to keep trying. Honestly. Part of this is seeing your name. I had forty five rejections from Analog before I sold to them for the first time.

Sarah Hoyt: And eighty from Asimov’s.

OscagneTX: twice. piker. you’re going to have to get much worse to match me. Bwahahh.

Sarah Hoyt: As for their quality — they buy my stories, I’m not going to discuss it.

Merfilly27: Okay, now I know I’m staying out of the business 🙂

Dehede011: Or is that Sarah A. Hoyt as it appears on Amazon??

MrBillDennis2nd: I can churn out 5,000 good words in about two hours … for newspapers. But fiction is hard. I tried once and couldn’t do it.

OscagneTX: I read them for a long time. I enjoyed the stories. Then I got mad, and quite my subscription. I believe that’s called “cutting off the nose to spite the face.”

Sarah Hoyt: Have you read F &SF? I mean, I don’t submit to them anymore. If I can’t read it, I can’t write it.

Sarah Hoyt: Sarah A. Hoyt.

Sarah Hoyt: Bill, that’s my rate of writing — shorts and novels. Can’t write non-fiction to save my life.

OscagneTX: I submitted to F&SF. Got rejected 12 times. Hey…

Sarah Hoyt: If I’m “smoking” I can do 10 K words in two hours.

Merfilly27: Take care and best of it to us from C Krin

OscagneTX: sycopation… I’ve got 12 stories, each rejected by 12 markets.

MrBillDennis2nd: 10K … good lord woman…..

MrBillDennis2nd: That’s one-tenth of a NOVEL

Dehede011: SH, I see you have four with Amazon — let me add a couple of volumes to your income

Sarah Hoyt: Well, I quit submitting to F & SF when I read their story where women were descended from dolphins and men from apes.

Sarah Hoyt: Oh. You’re so nice. 🙂

OscagneTX: Me too.

OscagneTX: I’ll buy.

AGplusone: Explains why wimmen is smarter than men

Sarah Hoyt: I mean, let’s talk implausible science.

Sarah Hoyt: Yeah… also slicker, Dave. 😉

Dehede011: You mean the Internet

Smn Jester: Yeah, but lets stay away from the fish comments…

Smn Jester: Ooops…

AGplusone: eeeew

Sarah Hoyt: Oh, shoot. I was starting to type it in.

MrBillDennis2nd: I am not buying any more books until the stack of unread books next to my bed is shorter than I am ….

OscagneTX: What a smelly comment.

Sarah Hoyt: I was just going to say it was a fishy business to me.

MrBillDennis2nd: I suppose the person who wrote that story got paid “scale” …. *ahem*

Sarah Hoyt: OW.

AGplusone: sorta like banking … 🙂

Smn Jester: Its really really ichy of me…

Sarah Hoyt: That’s worthy of my son, Robert.

MrBillDennis2nd: LOL Simon

OscagneTX: Here’s joke… I ran your name through Amazon, but didn’t specify books. %90 of my hits were Sailor Moon.

Sarah Hoyt: I know.

Sarah Hoyt: If you run it through the internet you get that too.

MrBillDennis2nd:

Sarah Hoyt: Ayup.

Sarah Hoyt: Samples of stuff there, too.

Sarah Hoyt: Although we haven’t put in new covers, etc.

Sarah Hoyt: Had a breast lump scare — is this appropriate for polite company — had mammogram today. It’s just scar tissue. Drinking to being able to breathe again.

OscagneTX: My wife loves Manga.

Sarah Hoyt: I’ve lived in fear… family history and all.

MrBillDennis2nd: Good news. My mom is breast cancer survivor ….

Smn Jester: Live it like you stole it…

Merfilly27: Sarah, I’m glad for you it was only scar tissue, but have them watch it

Smn Jester: To paraphrase the bumper sticker.

OscagneTX: This is not a structured discussion. Talk about whatever you’d like, Sarah.

Sarah Hoyt: Three aunts are survivors. Mom is going through uterine cancer treatment.

OscagneTX: Eventually, we’ll get back to Heinlein. It ALWAYS happens. So meandering is OK.

Sarah Hoyt: Yeah — they said to watch it.

Sarah Hoyt: Groan…. everything in my life gets back to Heinlein.

Sarah Hoyt: It’s like it’s the program at the back of my head.

Randyjj55: Well, I have appeased the domestic goddess, so I am back. Let me scan the discussion and catch up before I jump in….

Sarah Hoyt: I don’t think I’ve ever done anything in my life without asking myself “Would he approve?” Sad, really.

Merfilly27: My partner’s breast cancer was related to scar tissue she had

Smn Jester: My wife cringes when she hear that name. I guess I get the evangelical gleem to my eyes.

Smn Jester: WWHD?

Sarah Hoyt: Well, my husband and I had a great problem over naming our first born — we didn’t really want to shock the other — and then one evening we just blurted at the same time “but I want to call him Robert Anson.” So we did.

OscagneTX: What Would Heinlein Drive. Oh, wait. We probably know that.

Sarah Hoyt: WWHD — I have a T-shirt with that.

Sarah Hoyt: And the back says “What Would Heinlein Do?” I get the oddest looks.

Sarah Hoyt: Had one made for me, one for my husband and one for very good friend.

Smn Jester: I’ve GOT to get one like that…

Sarah Hoyt: I was railing about the WWJD — because if you believe in divine incarnation we just CAN’T know. It’s a cheap sentence for a cheap form of religion. And Dan (husband) suggested that. So…

MrBillDennis2nd: heh. I’ve heard of WWJWD, “What Would Joss Wheadon Do?”

Dehede011: You know we aren’t that far from his 100 aniversary

Sarah Hoyt: And yes, husband’s cat when we got married was Petronius The Arbiter — may he be happy in the eternal hunting lands.

Smn Jester: Um… Grr.. Arrg?

OscagneTX: Simon is channeling the zombie fromt the end of the Buffy episodes.

MrBillDennis2nd: Missing Buffy … but at least Spike is movign over to Angel …

Sarah Hoyt: Pixel Wallwalker Hoyt is sleeping on my lap as I type this. He’s a big orange fluffball who will NOT shut up.

Sarah Hoyt: Angel needs a coherent plot.

Sarah Hoyt: I miss Buffy.

Sarah Hoyt: Withdrawaling now.

MrBillDennis2nd: Joss has said there may be a Buffy theatrical movie in the works …

Smn Jester: Spike? Thought he went ‘poof’?

OscagneTX: I am so mad at Buffy-PTB.

Merfilly27: guess he’ll be an angel

OscagneTX: there was absolutely no need to kill Anya.

Dehede011: brb — getting tea

MrBillDennis2nd: When did “going poof” prevent a supernatural being from returning.

Merfilly27: a new White-Lighter…wait, mixing series

Smn Jester: And the Lady Minx Diesel de la Underfoot is curled up on the rug next to me.

MrBillDennis2nd: I LOVED Anya …

Sarah Hoyt: Oh, you know and I know — thank heavens for monetary need — there will be a “slayers” series in the future.

OscagneTX: I was so mad. And it was such a meaningless death.

Sarah Hoyt: I loved Anya too.

OscagneTX: It was just “well, someone needs to die… how about Anya?”

Sarah Hoyt: I keep quoting her re: bunnies. But she just made sense to me. The whole thing about Buffy saying heros couldn’t be paid. I was with Annya. Want protection from vampires? Fork over dough. Come on….

Smn Jester: My wife twisted my arm to watch it. It was better than I thought it would be.

MrBillDennis2nd: According to a rumor from Aint it Cool News, Spike may come back as a “human” with Slayer powers.

Sarah Hoyt: …. btw…. nothing poof about Spike. That’s Angel’s slander. 😉

OscagneTX: Simon, me too.

Smn Jester: My wife gets all tingley over spike; I love redheads. All is balanced.

MrBillDennis2nd: I had horns for Alyson Hannigan … yummmm

Smn Jester: Angel is just in denial…

Sarah Hoyt: And, though I expect to be shouted down by everyone in this group, I was pissed when Willow went lesbian. I mean, I do have (um… a lot) of lesbian friends, but making the studious girl the lesbian just pissed me off. Upset about

Merfilly27: no huhu over putting Spike on Angel…ala Dallas

OscagneTX: OO. OO. Okay. I like red-head Willow, and evil veiny Willow.

Sarah Hoyt: the retroactive insult to me as a kid.

Sarah Hoyt: Or slander.

Sarah Hoyt: Not insult.

Merfilly27: you know, Cordy comes out of the shower, and there he is

Sarah Hoyt: Bug — everyone assumed it, anyway.

MrBillDennis2nd: LOL

OscagneTX: Hehe

Smn Jester: It was wrong to make will lesbian. It just didn’t feel right. Willow and Xander were made for each other.

Sarah Hoyt: Yes.

Merfilly27: Willow’s evil side I liked

Sarah Hoyt: THey wanted to make someone lesbian, they could have found another character.

OscagneTX: Um. I started watching after she was a lesbian. But I thought they handled it well.

MrBillDennis2nd: Spike is by far the most interesting character on Buffy, IMHO … a treasure trove of stories

Merfilly27: Faith was the one I thought should be lez, to keep the bull dyke character type 🙂

Smn Jester: I heard the guy who played Spike when he wasn’t putting on his accent. Impressive.

Sarah Hoyt: Oh, btw, true conversation with Gardner Dozois. I told him I found it weird that lesbian characters are all over Asimov’s but not gay male characters. He said it was “just commercial” because two girls doing it is hot

MrBillDennis2nd: Anothe AICN rumor … there MAY be a Faith the Vampire Slayer series after all …

Sarah Hoyt: Two men is disgusting. Um… can we say one-sided view. I guess he missed the point of slash.

Sarah Hoyt: Being written mostly by women.

OscagneTX: But Sarah…. its basically true.

MrBillDennis2nd: David Marsters is a fine actor and supposedly one of the nicest guys around.

Sarah Hoyt: If you’re a male, yes.

OscagneTX: I think, anyeay.

Merfilly27: slash fic lets many would be writers enjoy many ideas 🙂

DocJam00 has entered the room.

Merfilly27: and two chics is hot, a proven concept, but two guys is limited audience

Sarah Hoyt: One of my best friends is a lesbian and I tell her I love her dearly but I really don’t want details of her private life, because it is ew.

MrBillDennis2nd: Hello …. welcome to the Buffy discussion group!

Merfilly27: lol

DocJam00: Hello, everybody…

OscagneTX: My wife finds the whole guy-guy sex thing humorous. While I find the whole girl-girl thing interesting. I’ll base the generalization on that. %^)

Sarah Hoyt: Um… only because most women are repressed. IMOH. I don’t mean women want graphic details. We tend not to. But….

BPRAL22169: Yo, Robert.

Smn Jester: Thing about two guys is that they can be studly and masculine, but they are still utilitarian. Jeeps. Woman are sports cars.

BPRAL22169: Anything further on the Bellamy connection?

Merfilly27: less visual more imagination is my cup of tea

OscagneTX: Howdy, Doc.

Sarah Hoyt: Get a bunch of girls who know each other very well together — and they will tell a different story

DocJam00: Nothing until I re-read Looking Backward

Sarah Hoyt: It’s one of those things in which the two genders are more similar than women like to admit.

Sarah Hoyt: And, btw, women just seem oddly padded to me.

Sarah Hoyt: Men — now, most men are beautiful.

Sarah Hoyt: Very few exceptions, and those having to do more with the content of their character.

Smn Jester: Men are hairy.

Merfilly27: With both, clothing helps

Sarah Hoyt: Um… No?

OscagneTX: Men seem overly… vulnerable… to me. Everything is haing out and air-conditioned, while women are demure and reserved.

Sarah Hoyt: Yes, but the vulnerable is cute…

Smn Jester: I speak from persoanl experience. Worlds biggest hair ball, according to wife.

Sarah Hoyt: Oh, heck, my brother told me when I was fourteen that on this topic, we’d agree to disagree.

Sarah Hoyt: Bio-rug.

Sarah Hoyt: 🙂

BPRAL22169: I had a thought; Looking Backward is what I’m coming to call a “paradoxical romance,” where the “nightmare world of romance descent is a utopia

BPRAL22169: Now, this forces you to create a new utpian identity in order to have romance ascent and restoration

DocJam00: Well, Bill, I’m going to have to decipher that one…

BPRAL22169: Heinlein does this quite a lot — and it’s very Darwinian

BPRAL22169: new qualities of old faculties bloom in new circumstances.

BPRAL22169: e.g., Andrew Jackson Libby

DocJam00: And I’m not sure I have the energy to do that right now 🙂

Sarah Hoyt: Yes, first perceived that pattern in Citizen of The Galaxy.

Smn Jester: Total character change if you asked me…

OscagneTX: Oh, yes. I had almost decided that it was comercial rather than artistic. He can get very intimate woman-to-woman, but male to male he is very euphamistic.

DocJam00: I was up until 3 am working on the FUTL Afterword, and I’m still not done

Sarah Hoyt: I’m in page proof hell, be it in abatment of my sins.

BPRAL22169: Are you going to explain Social Credit?

DocJam00: Took a break all day with the kids, gonna hit the hay soon, then finish the rough draft tomorrow

OscagneTX: I’ll help, Doc. Stop where you are and put “And now the story.” See how easy that is? %^)

Sarah Hoyt: 😀

DocJam00: Yes, briefly — I think RAH does a much better job than I could — but I am going to explain the historical contexts

DocJam00: Well, in a foreword, yes, but not in an afterword, Osc

OscagneTX: oh, crap. Another good theory shot down the tubes by brutal reality.

DocJam00: Welcome to my last marriage 🙂

Sarah Hoyt: On the possibility we’ll adopt a kid this November (might, might not. Depends on kid’s mom coming to grips with reality or passing it on to another generation) we’re considering Oscar and Michael Valentine as names. Just consideri

Sarah Hoyt: ng. It’s a boy.

Smn Jester: Oscar?

Sarah Hoyt: Otherwise, she would be Virginia or Ginny.

Sarah Hoyt: I LIKED Glory Road.

MrBillDennis2nd: Doc, I would be *happy* to post the FUTL afterward on heinleinblog … 😉

Sarah Hoyt: Besides, one of the kids best friends is Oscar.

OscagneTX: Oscar, true. I liked him better.

Smn Jester: I can only think of Soviet submarines…

MrBillDennis2nd: Actually, I had a very feminist reaction to Glory Road …

DocJam00: Yeah, well, Simon & Schuster won’t be — I have a year wait before I can do anything with it elsewhere, and then only with permission

MrBillDennis2nd: All the sex that was “due” the male hero read like teenage male fantasy to me on the first read ….

Sarah Hoyt: I don’t think I’ve ever had a very feminist reaction to Glory Road, though sometimes I shoot into near-male-chauvinism.

Sarah Hoyt: Well, I read it at fourteen.

OscagneTX: due?

Sarah Hoyt: Duty.

Sarah Hoyt: Actually.

MrBillDennis2nd: Doc: I knew that …

OscagneTX: You mean at whasisfaces’ house?

OscagneTX: Jock

MrBillDennis2nd: Yeah.

DocJam00: brb

Sarah Hoyt: Kind of the opposite of “droit du seigneur” — a great name for a big black dog (does anyone here read Pratchett?)

MrBillDennis2nd: Yeah … it was his duty to have sex with one or more of these women …

Merfilly27: afk

Smn Jester: Terry?

DocJam00: Bill, let’s plan an article on Bellamy and FUTL for the next journal, ok?

Sarah Hoyt: Course.

Smn Jester: Nope, never heard of him…

BPRAL22169: It’s a good subject.

Sarah Hoyt: 🙂

OscagneTX: If that was a adolescent’s fantasy, he was disappointed. Oscar turned it down.

Merfilly27: back

OscagneTX: front.

Smn Jester: *applause*

OscagneTX: oh… should be…

OscagneTX: FRONT!!

Sarah Hoyt: Leo Frankowsky, some years back, had a series that read entirely as an adollescent fantasy. Did quite well.

Merfilly27: I’m not Front today

Sarah Hoyt: I’ve tried the Front thing with the kids, but this is EXACTLY the reply I get.

Smn Jester: Use TP to fill the bra…

Merfilly27: Ma Nature has tended to that dept

BPRAL22169: Oh, yeah, the Radiant Knight series, Lord Conrad.

Smn Jester: Braggart…

MrBillDennis2nd: That’s a good subject. I mentioned the new novel on my blog and it was linked too all over the blogosphere.

Merfilly27: Though this time, I can see the belly below them

DocJam00: I mean the one in January 2004 when the book comes out — per Frankowski, Sarah, you mean the engineer who goes back in time to have Polish medieval sex?

Sarah Hoyt: Sarah –looks down — for me too. Technician told me to go for DD instead of D cup. Soemthing about fitting.

Sarah Hoyt: Yes.

Sarah Hoyt: My brother loved it.

Sarah Hoyt: My husband too.

MrBillDennis2nd: But Oscar actually went back and performed his “duty” after Star told him about it?

Sarah Hoyt: I enjoyed it.

DocJam00: Fun series, but really an excuse to do softcore porn

Sarah Hoyt: Nothing against male fantasies. As long as you don’t take it too seriously.

DocJam00: brb — child wants attention

AGplusone: who needs an excuse?

Sarah Hoyt: Yes, my impression too. Although some of the engineering stuff was cool.

Smn Jester: Softcore pron? What abut Thomas Covenant?

Sarah Hoyt: I’m not disposed to being offended by males being males.

Merfilly27: Try Auel’s Earth Children Series

Merfilly27: too much sex almost kept me from reading the good parts

Smn Jester: Ayla is hot…

Sarah Hoyt: Thomas Covenant was just boring. Only book I ever flung out of a moving train — I did not say that.

Sarah Hoyt: Never read that. Will try it, though.

Smn Jester: Read the Gap series?

Sarah Hoyt: Oh, no. That’s different. That’s DEVIANT male fantasy.

Smn Jester: Like a car wreak. DIsgusting but you can’t look away.

Merfilly27: Thomas Covenant I read once, both series

Sarah Hoyt: As someone who was dragged by artsy friends to the movie “Crash” — the only movie about a fetish no one actually has — I know about “like a car reck”

Sarah Hoyt: wreck.

DocJam00: Gap series? BTW, I loved the first Covenant series — second one sucked

Sarah Hoyt: can’t type, but I’m okay.

MrBillDennis2nd: Anyone read any part of the “Gor” series …

Merfilly27: only remember that Brooks did a better rip off of modern fantasy

DocJam00: Isn’t Gor the S&M series?

MrBillDennis2nd: Yes.

Merfilly27: it is

Sarah Hoyt: You know, after he rapes the woman and neither of them feels any dramatic thing after it, I wasn’t standing around for “Covenant”

DocJam00: no thank you…pain isn’t my gig

OscagneTX: *Oscagne imagines a couple walking near the tracks, intoxicated in each others’s eyes, mooning and sighing to the heavens… then WHAP!!

MrBillDennis2nd: It’s POORLY WRITTEN porn too

Sarah Hoyt: Yes.

Sarah Hoyt: I mean, yes Bill.

Sarah Hoyt: The whap was just funny….

DocJam00: Apparently, it’s become a cult series in the S&M community

Sarah Hoyt: It was somewhere in Germany.

Smn Jester: That’s “Yes, MASTER Bill”!

MrBillDennis2nd: I insist my porn have artistic merit

Merfilly27: Second that motion, Bill

MrBillDennis2nd: lol

OscagneTX: I insist my porn have smiling females. They should look happy.

Merfilly27: 🙂

Sarah Hoyt: I don’t think so. I don’t do windows, I don’t do gardens and I DEFINITELY don’t do submissive.

OscagneTX: %^)

Sarah Hoyt: I don’t actually demand anything of porn, except that it be spelled properly — I prefer story porn to picture porn.

DocJam00: I am reminded of Dorothy Parker’s comment on the difference between porn and erotica — something along the lines of 15 minutes of one made her want to go home and have sex, and 15 minutes of the other made her want to go home and

DocJam00: go to sleep

Sarah Hoyt: NOTHING kills arousal so fast as “Is that spelled that way? Impossible.”

Sarah Hoyt: Which is probably a failing on my part….

AGplusone: OOOH! she said, OOOOOOOOOH!

DocJam00: David is writing is autobiography again, I see…

Sarah Hoyt: Yes. “Can there really be that many oooooohs?” And then you try to make the sound.

MrBillDennis2nd: Kurt Vonnegut once wrote a short story that had a segment about the correct way to spell “jism” … or is it “jizzum”?

Sarah Hoyt: 😀

OscagneTX: OOOOOOOO..” “nono.. that’s Ahhhhhhh!” “AAAOOOOO” NOno.

Sarah Hoyt: You should listen to Mike Resnick on the subject of how to pad porn with lines like that — when you’re being paid by the line.

MrBillDennis2nd:

Sarah Hoyt: Unfortunately, internet mostly killed pay in that market.

Sarah Hoyt: Ex spelled “masturbate” as “masterbait” — and, my God, I didn’t get it.

DocJam00: Ellison and Silverberg made a living writing that stuff in the fifties

AGplusone: Thank god. The best things in life should be free.

MrBillDennis2nd: Excuse me … but why does ANYBODy pay for porn anymore, anyway?

DocJam00: Sarah, that’s an old joke — the guy who spent 20 years on a fishing boat and finally became a master baiter

Sarah Hoyt: I helped friend move, found porn stash. Had to show HIM how to find porn on internet.

Sarah Hoyt: Yes, well, for ex it had a more personal meaning as to where his leanings leaned….

Merfilly27: Helped clean out my grandad’s stuff and found “porn” many would pay through the nose for

Sarah Hoyt: Both gender and style. And I’m not so into inflicting pain either….

Smn Jester: Has returned… Cat nearly got a mouse.

Sarah Hoyt: Friend very grateful. Limited income….

DocJam00: brb — child wants more attention

Sarah Hoyt: oooooh.

Sarah Hoyt: Children ALWAYS want attention. Robert is doing something in MY bathroom. I’m afraid to ask what.

Merfilly27: My two are actually asleep

Sarah Hoyt: He has his own. Why mine?

Sarah Hoyt: Fewer clothes on the floor?

Sarah Hoyt: Merfilly — Stephanie?

Merfilly27: My girls prefer my bathroom too

Merfilly27: Yes.

Sarah Hoyt: Okay. Trying to put names w/ handles.

Merfilly27: I answer cuickly to Filly

Sarah Hoyt: Well, yeah, but boys do unspeakable things to bathrooms.

Merfilly27: quickly

Sarah Hoyt: 🙂

Sarah Hoyt: cuickly sounded like a rain forest poison.

Merfilly27: Don’t give me horro stories…this one is to be a boy, supposedly

MrBillDennis2nd: Don’t get cuick with *us*, Filly !!!

Merfilly27: lol

Smn Jester: Now then, qut out the bad speeling…

Sarah Hoyt: No horror stories. I love having boys. But they pee for distance and accuracy — at least when you have two of them. Eight year old can aim all the way from bathroom door.

Merfilly27: good shot

OscagneTX: That’s nothing.

Merfilly27: I’ll let Daddy teach them that stuff

Sarah Hoyt: Yeah. Considering his aversion to studying, might be his greatest accomplishment in life.

OscagneTX: In elementary school we had a urinal that was about 8 feet long.

MrBillDennis2nd: Yeah, but when standing *right next to the toilet*, we can’t avoid peeing on the floor.

Smn Jester: Marking our terittory…

OscagneTX: the idea was to stand at the end and see if you could be *past* the other end. We had some that’d make it.

Sarah Hoyt: Oh, no. That’s the only drawback. I haven’t had a dinner time conversation in eight years that didn’t include jokes about farts, bodilly functions, or male anatomy.

OscagneTX: s/be/pee

Sarah Hoyt: AND daddy doesn’t see anything wrong with this.

Merfilly27: My girls still think bodily functions are hilarious

BPRAL22169: From Buffyland to porn to bathroom behavior. This has been a wild trip.

Smn Jester: I haven’t been able to sleep past nine oclock on a Saturday in years…

Sarah Hoyt: AND saying “tool” at the table sends everyone into spasms of laughter.

Smn Jester: A seven year has that power…

Sarah Hoyt: I’m sorry. I’m a mom. bathroom behavior is part of the job problems.

Sarah Hoyt: My kids are night owls. We collapse into bed at eleven and they’re still going. We just sort of trust they won’t set fire to the house.

Smn Jester: A seven year old that is…

Smn Jester: Mine floods the downstairs bathroom on a regular basis..

Merfilly27: when the babies were little, passing gas scared them

Sarah Hoyt: My husband is reading Pol Anderson’s Operation Chaos.

Merfilly27: so we would laugh

Merfilly27: now we are paying for that bit of psychology

Smn Jester: I’m reading City right now….

OscagneTX: Who wrote “The Cold Equations”?

Sarah Hoyt: Oh, oh, Eric flooded the bathroom so badly it poured water over the piano downstairs. I mean, like a waterfall.

Sarah Hoyt: City is one of my favorite novels, still.

Smn Jester: First time for me.

BPRAL22169: Jerome Bixby

DavidWrightSr: City was Simak wasn’t it?

Smn Jester: Yep.

OscagneTX: thx

BPRAL22169: One of Heinlein’s favorite stories.

Sarah Hoyt: Anyway — we realized O C was dedicated to the Heinleins.

Smn Jester: Which series is that?

OscagneTX: It’s a very Heinleinian story.

MrBillDennis2nd: Filly … exactly how loud do yoru people pass gas so that it scares the baby?

Sarah Hoyt: City was Simak.

Sarah Hoyt: Filly — my kids LIKED the vaccum when they were babies….

Smn Jester: My cat hates vauccums…

Merfilly27: The babies themselves….I guess the new sensations as they learned it

Smn Jester: Probably has to do with that time i used it on her…

Merfilly27: Had a cat who loved the dust buster for grooming

Sarah Hoyt: Operation Chaos and Operation Luna — the only series of urban fantasy I really loved.

Smn Jester: Cat Flowbie…

OscagneTX: I’ve been thinking of trying that with our cats. Vacuum all the loose hair off of them.

Sarah Hoyt: Petronius once clawed my wrist open because I walked past the vaccum while holding him. Vaccum was off.

Sarah Hoyt: He thought vaccum was personal enemy. When less than one, he learned to unplug it.

Merfilly27: I can’t get my dog to be still for a brush

Smn Jester: Never carry Minx when walking past the bathrrom…

Sarah Hoyt: And then stand victorious over the plug….

AGplusone: use one of those small car battery operated vacs …. Bob will barely tollerate it

Randyjj55: Cold equation was written by Tom Godwin

Sarah Hoyt: However, he loved water. When he wouldn’t come and was hiding somewhere, he ran water into the bath tub.

Merfilly27: Bad as my cat who learned to turn on lights

Sarah Hoyt: Only story he ever published, wasn’t it. My favorite.

Sarah Hoyt: short.

BPRAL22169: You’re right. tom Godwin. bixby was “Wonderful Life,”

OscagneTX: Ah

Sarah Hoyt: Well, Filly, we have this acrobat duo — MIranda and Euclid. She jumps for the handle, he pools at the bottom, so they can open a door between them.

BPRAL22169: Funny how memory works —

BPRAL22169: Or doesn’t

DocJam00: “It’s a Good Life”

Sarah Hoyt: he pulls.

Sarah Hoyt: I’m acquiring a typing accent.

Merfilly27: We came home, all these lights were on, started blaming each other

BPRAL22169: As I said, doesn’t.

Sarah Hoyt: Seems to be Mexican. Very distubing.

Merfilly27: Then, one night a bit later, I saw him leap up at the light switch and hit it just right to make it flip up

Sarah Hoyt: I’d better have a Mexican character for next novel…

Sarah Hoyt: Yep. We thought the bathroom (where we confine them while moving furniture, etc) door was broken.

Merfilly27: This is the same cat who learned to turn on the sink on slow run, to drink fresh water

Sarah Hoyt: Yes. Miranda cat.

OscagneTX: Our first cat figured out how to open a closed door. Not locked, but she had to operate the doorknob.

Sarah Hoyt: Miranda doesn’t fully understand she’s not human. When we set up the guestroom, she immediately started taking naps there, and now everyone refers to it as “miranda’s room”

Smn Jester: Lucy, the crabby flabby scabbu Tabby lurks for prey in the dish cabinet aboe the sink.

Merfilly27: lol

Sarah Hoyt: The other cats don’t require a room of their own.

Sarah Hoyt: Pixel just jumped on poor husband with full claws. It was interesting…

Smn Jester: Minx and Lucy use our spare room in the same way.

Merfilly27: well folks, I have to go see if the Doctor thinks I am still healthy tomorrow

OscagneTX: We now have 6 cats. In a 1 bedroom apt.

Merfilly27: I will see you all anon

OscagneTX: g’night Steph.

DocJam00: bye

Sarah Hoyt: Good night.

OscagneTX: Remember us if you need a vacation.

Smn Jester: I should go too. Taking the young one to an air show.

Merfilly27: maybe I’ll just send you my kids 🙂

OscagneTX: Good luck and all.

Smn Jester: Ha!

Sarah Hoyt: 🙂

OscagneTX: Kids don’t like me, but whatever. %^)

Merfilly27 has left the room.

Sarah Hoyt: Pixel is trying to explain to us he needs to go out in pursuit of his sex life — he’s fixed (sound medical reasons)and 16

Smn Jester: Old and horny, eh?

Sarah Hoyt: However, he doesn’t admit to either.

Sarah Hoyt: Yep.

OscagneTX: hehe

Smn Jester: I’ve got a crusty old cat who sounds just right for him…

OscagneTX: My Steph has a sudden craving for Sonic. I’ll be back in a short bit.

Sarah Hoyt: He used to have girlfriends every door and run every tom out of town. But then he got kitty Alzheimers and forgot that cars are to be avoided when crossing roads. One skull fracture later, he’s indoor-only.

Sarah Hoyt: But under severe protest.

Smn Jester: She has no hair aft of the rib cage. And when you pet her, she sticks her butt in your face and you can see the brown eye pucker as she meows…

MrBillDennis2nd: Thanks for the image

Sarah Hoyt: Oh, oh, oh — Pixel is like that, too.

Sarah Hoyt: I mean, butt in face.

Sarah Hoyt: No the hair.

Sarah Hoyt: Not the hair — what did I say about typing accent?

Smn Jester: I like to hold her upside down and point her at people. She sounds like bagpipes and blinds you at ten paces…

BPRAL22169: Time for me to go.

Sarah Hoyt: Wonderful. We scared people with cat stories. Maybe I should go…

AGplusone: Nite, Bill …

Sarah Hoyt: Good night.

DocJam00: g’night Bill — email you tomorrow, hopefully, with a draft

BPRAL22169: We’ll do it again in a couple of days.

Smn Jester: Have fun all…

BPRAL22169: Have fun, one and all.

MrBillDennis2nd: Night

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

DocJam00: bye

Smn Jester has left the room.

Randyjj55: It isn’t the cat stories that are so scary – it’s the possibility that you might mail one of these cats to us ….

AGplusone: cat stories are fun

Dehede011: I shall take this opportunity to bow out also. It was fun being here.

Sarah Hoyt: I probably should go. Miranda is sitting on my husband and trying to convince him to get rid of me….

MrBillDennis2nd: I’m going to sign off too. Sorry I missed the discussion of Heinlein’s nonfiction. I await the full transcript.

Dehede011: Bye

Sarah Hoyt: Sooner or later, he’ll take it.

Dehede011 has left the room.

MrBillDennis2nd has left the room.

Sarah Hoyt: Bye, all. I’m glad I got here for the end of it at least.

Randyjj55: David, where is

DavidWrightSr: If a couple of you have the sections where I dropped out, I would appreciate it if you could send it to me so that I can fill in the gaps

Sarah Hoyt: Sorry not very coherent. It’s been a weird day.

Randyjj55: Art located at?

AGplusone: glad you came

AGplusone: slithy toad!

AGplusone: descended from dolphin!

Sarah Hoyt: :-\

Sarah Hoyt: Bye.

Sarah Hoyt has left the room.

AGplusone: bye …

DocJam00: bye

AGplusone: I’ll copy and send you the log, Dave.

DavidWrightSr: Thanks

AGplusone: G’night from New York

DavidWrightSr: I’ll try and get them out this weekend.

DocJam00: You’re in NY, David?

AGplusone: Old joke between David and me

DavidWrightSr: And I’ll send another message out on the mailing list for Saturday’s meeting.

DocJam00: oh

DavidWrightSr: Night Chet

DavidWrightSr: Or is that backwards?

Randyjj55: David, do you happen to know of an address for David Kyle, or if he is still attending world cons?

DocJam00: Oh, I get it — the old Huntley Brinkley thing — never actually saw it

AGplusone: And good night for NBC News.

DavidWrightSr: I’m closing down the log. Log Officially closed at 12:17 AM

DocJam00: good night, all

DavidWrightSr: C ya later

DocJam00 has left the room.
Final End of Discussion Log

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