Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group
Thursday 01-24-2002 09:00 P.M. EST
The Evolution Of Presentation
Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
Due to holiday festivities the chat sessions have been on hold but I guess it’s time to stop nibbling the left over chocolates, throw out the egg nog and get back to work 🙂
We hope to have some guests in the very near future and I’d like to schedule a chat for a week on Thursday. If any of you regulars have ideas for future topics, please feel free to post/email them and anyone who hasn’t joined in before who wants to, then we’d be glad to see you. Full instructions and logs of earlier meetings are here; http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html
(One note; my email is not @home but @rogers now.)
OK, we need a topic to kick start the new year. I had a thought; the evolution of the way Heinlein’s words reach his readers with some speculation as to the best method (acknowledging that this is subjective).
IOW, he was first printed in the pulps; disposable, read once magazines. From there he moved to the slicks and to the more durable medium of books. Radio plays explored another method of presentation with the extra (perhaps unwanted) depth that a voice brings, good if you don’t prefer your own imagination. TV added another dimension and even more for a ‘reader’ to approve or disapprove of. We’ve seen movies which, despite huge budgets, disappointed many fans.
There are books on tape, downloadable e books, computer games, comic books of ST, role playing books and games…..the message a little diluted perhaps but all with a bit at the centre that is Heinlein’s vision. So; are books best? Or am I hopelessly dated? I’ll finish with this from Space Family Stone/Rolling Stones;
“The entire family, save the twins, tended to be old-fashioned about
books; they liked books with covers, volumes one could hold in the lap.
Film spools were not quite the same.”
I wonder if new books will still be printed in a century, or if they will go the way of vinyl records?
>I wonder if new books will still be printed in a century, or if they will go
the way of vinyl records?< Jane, Let me answer this way: There are several places on line where old classics by T. Roosevelt, Huxley, etal are available. I sometimes find something I want to read so I download it, find it impossible to read at such length off the screen and then print it out to read. I sometimes ponder whether the HDTV screen will eventually make a difference but todate have no answer to that question. Dehede Jane Davitt wrote: >”The entire family, save the twins, tended to be old-fashioned about
>books; they liked books with covers, volumes one could hold in the lap.
>Film spools were not quite the same.”
>I wonder if new books will still be printed in a century, or if they
>will go the way of vinyl records?
I tend to think books might be around, but I think there will be less interest in reading books in the year 2102. I think people will continue to read because it’s the best way to take in information, but other forms of entertainment might supplant reading.
I actually do more reading now off of the computer screen than I do from books, including work or play. I’ve just ordered an RCA REB-1100 ebook reader. I want to read more novels and short stories, and I’m hoping the reader will make it easier for my bad eyes to enjoy reading for long periods. I read better from computer screens because the fonts are bigger. So one of my first goals will be to collect Heinlein ebooks. Unfortunately, there aren’t many.
But think how convenient it would be to participate on this group with an ebook reader by my side that had all of Heinlein stored in it. Quick searches across all the volumes would be instant. That would be cool.
However, I do think kids books will still be popular. Big colorful, easy to hold books for children are probably the optimum format. Kids have to learn to read, and I hate seeing little kids spending too much time in front of computers.
In article, Jim Harriswrote:
> I’ve just ordered an RCA REB-1100 ebook reader. I
>want to read more novels and short stories, and I’m hoping the reader will make
>it easier for my bad eyes to enjoy reading for long periods. I read better
>from computer screens because the fonts are bigger. So one of my first goals
>will be to collect Heinlein ebooks. Unfortunately, there aren’t many.
I completely agree with you about the balance shifting from the printed word to the computer screen and I deplore it. I do it — but I deplore it. However, as you (? — someone) said, there are some very old goodies that are accessible only in e-format. (The first ebook I ever downloaded was “Rupert of Hentzau” just because the last time I had read it, it had taken me six months to find a copy.)
The ebook reader you mention is new to me. Could you advise me how it works? I will very much appreciate your information.
Finally, RAH did mention “time and again” that there are times when it doesn’t matter that the book-scroll being projected above your bed and the touch-sensitive switch in your hand controlling it are the easiest and most convenient forms for reading–sometimes snuggling down with a big, old “smelly” comfortable book is the best.
Dr. Rufo wrote:
–sometimes snuggling down with a big,
>old “smelly” comfortable book is the best.
There’s a very poetical bit in an early episode of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer (I Robot,You Jane). The librarian Giles is at loggerheads with Jenny, a computer teacher. She asks him why he doesn’t like computers and he replies, “The smell”. “But”, she answers, “computers don’t smell.” “I know” he said. “Smell is the most powerful trigger to the memory there is. A certain flower, a whiff of smoke can bring up experiences long forgotten.
Books smell. Musty and…rich. The knowledge gained from a computer is…it has no texture, no context. It’s there and then it’s gone. If it’s to last then the getting of knowledge should be tangible, it should be….smelly.”
Might not be exact but that’s about it and I know if I find something good on the ‘puter, I print it off….I want it tangible too.
Jane Davittwrote in message news:…
>I wonder if new books will still be printed in a century, or if they
>will go the way of vinyl records?
There was some talk a couple years back about how retailers, should they invest in new printing technology, and printing with laser become fast enough, might simply print books from the internet, and sell them to buyers, thus obviating the need to keep any inventory on hand other than perhaps floor samples, and lots of paper … they could, for example, print large print books as needed, or regular editions, of any text; and books would never be “out of print,” but always freshly available.
Quality of paper, bindings and illustrations might be a negotiable subject, or subject to a sliding scale of price. You might order, for example, leather bound parchment quality paper editions of any book, perhaps the Heinlein corpus, you wish to pay for.
Trying this from Google, so forgive the short signature.
Jane Davittwrote in message news:…
>I wonder if new books will still be printed in a century, or if they
>will go the way of vinyl records?
Isaac Asimov wrote a good essay explaining the advantages of traditional books. Require no power, can be opened instantly to any page, etc.
Dr. Rufo wrote:
> The more of the senses we can engage in our exploration of the world(s)
>around us the more impressions (read “input” if you must) we will have to
>collate and co-relate. The “richer and more dense” will be the experience.
>The more nuances the better, easier to remember and to savor in fullness.
Yes; I don’t know who wrote that dialogue ( though I could find out who the main writer was for the episode, it’s usually a team effort I think so no way of pinning it down) but I’m behind them 100%.
If you go to the Amazon link for the Buffy DVD (season 1), it has a huge list of quotations from the series (go through the sidebar on the left, quotes and trivia section. oh, after clicking on the bit that says “more technical info for this edition on the main page). Some are very funny, some quite Notebook like in feel. And of course, as with any Amazon purchase, get to their site via the link on the Heinlein Society web page in my sig:-))
It’s a very under rated show with a fiercely loyal fan base (I should know; been watching it since series two or whenever we moved to Canada, as it wasn’t on in the UK back then).
Go To Postings
Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group Chat.”
SAcademy has entered the room.
SAcademy: Well, we both got there.
Paradis402: Hi Ginny!
SAcademy: Hi, Denis.
Paradis402: Yes, I’ll have to make this print larger later.
SAcademy: Want to start a log?
SAcademy: Go there now and do it.
Paradis402: I just save it at the end as HTML. That log doesn’t always work for me.
SAcademy: You have to close it to get it. I always forget to do that.
Paradis402: I find it easier to File and Save as.
SAcademy: Now, if you want to get back to your buddy list, just click on the AOL signature at the bottom.
Paradis402: I have it on screen now.
SAcademy: I am trying to see what is so new that they were so excited about.
Paradis402: Maybe they all forgot to show up.
OscagneTX has entered the room.
Paradis402: Right. I see nothing new. Hi Oscagne
SAcademy: Good evening.
SAcademy: Is that really a Texas town?
OscagneTX: “Howdy”? Not that I’ve heard, but Texas is a big place. I wouldn’t doubt it.
SAcademy: No, I mean the name. Your screen name.
OscagneTX: Oh, no. “Oscagne” is a character in David Eddings’ Tamuli series.
ddavitt has entered the room.
SAcademy: Evening, Jane.
OscagneTX: There was already an AOL Oscagne so I had to add TX.
Paradis402: Hi Jane!
ddavitt: Hi there!
OscagneTX: howdy, Jane.
SAcademy: I see that they still have you as ddavitt.
ddavitt: You’re all early
ddavitt: Yes, I kept that here to save confusion
SAcademy: Yes, we are. I am going to leave early, too.
Paradis402: Well we travelled via IO through an eruption.
ddavitt: I’m exhausted
SAcademy: The kids?
ddavitt: But I refuse to go to bed at the same time as Eleanor:-)
ddavitt: Yes; I was child minding today; 3 children
SAcademy: Have you seen the moving smileys?
ddavitt: Very tiring and Lauren is up every hour in the night.
ddavitt: No; how do they work?
OscagneTX: My eyes are crossing. I parsed that as “child mining”. As though you needed to scare up more kids…
SAcademy: I don’t know how they work, but I downloaded them–but can’t get them going.
SAcademy: I believe we have more space to write.
ddavitt: Well I think my mum has done them now you mention it
Paradis402: Maybe one of the experts will send us one here so we can see em.
ddavitt: I will ask her but she isn’t on AOL so it may be different
ddavitt: Not such a limit on words? That would be nice
ddavitt: I need a DVD expert; anyone?
SAcademy: I can’t figure out how to get them where I can use them.
ddavitt: Mum put hers at the end of an email; a line of dancing smiley’s with lefs
Paradis402: I have a DVD on this computer. I regret it’s presence.
OscagneTX: Expert… no. Reasonably familiar, yes. What’s your problem?
ddavitt: I got a player at Christmas; seemed fine
OscagneTX: Oh… DVD player or DVD-ROM drive.
ddavitt: Then bought a dvd to play and can’t access the special features
ddavitt: You are supposed to press the ff with the line next to it to navigate thru scenes of photos and a script
ddavitt: Lots of other people can’t do it on this particular title
OscagneTX: Lots of DVD’s list DVD-ROM as a special feature… but you can’t access that bit on a regular player, you have to have it in your computer.
Paradis402: Mine is a DVD Rom drive. I think.
ddavitt: No, not the DVD rom bit, I know I can’t do that
ddavitt: This is just the normal extras you get
OscagneTX: Ok… my dvd remote has the ff and rw buttons and all that… but it also has arrow keys like on a keyboard.
ddavitt: I can get the voice over on the episodes
OscagneTX: I use the arrow keys to navigate those menus.
ddavitt: Oh well…I tried with remote and the DVD player itself and keep getting the sign that means no, you can’t do it
ddavitt: It’s the Buffy season 1 DVD
ddavitt: Never mind.
OscagneTX: It may be a glitch on the DVD. Cheaply made disks do that sometimes. *shrug*
ddavitt: If we are all tired, maybe we should start?
SAcademy: What is Buffy season?
OscagneTX: “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” tv show.
ddavitt: Sorry, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, season one
ddavitt: It’s my favourite show. Been watching it since 97
ddavitt: Very under rated
ddavitt: And a lot of Heinlein fans on the Buffy newsgroups
ddavitt: Which is nice
OscagneTX: There are a lot of Buffy fans on the Callahans group, too.
SAcademy: I can’t get to those=–thanks to AOL
ddavitt: Really? Cool.
ddavitt: They are just alt groups Ginny, oh do you mean the sff groups?
ddavitt: That’s a shame 🙁
ddavitt: I know Dave Silver does but he has to do something tricky
OscagneTX: google, maybe?
ddavitt: He runs something over the top of AOL
SAcademy: As Tawn says, Aol babysits us.
ddavitt: But sometimes you feel you’re old enough not to need a sitter?
OscagneTX: Does AOL really offer so much that it compensates for all of the drawbacks? I’ve never heard anything really positive about it.
SAcademy: All the time, Jane.
ddavitt: I tried it, didn’t like it, still getting the free CD’s every few months
ddavitt: Why don’t you switch Ginny? Go cable maybe?
OscagneTX: coasters. or frisbees. sometimes skeet targets. %^)
Paradis402: Oh we’re all going to Hell for that one. Knocking AOL.:-!
ddavitt: That’s them; can they be burned? Not that I can do this on my old computer
ddavitt: Will the chatroom be locked next time we use it? 🙂
SAcademy: I can’t go to cable–we get our cable paid for by the Fleet Landing people
OscagneTX: No, you have to have a CD-RW disk for that. Unless you mean “Set on fire and destroyed”.
ddavitt: Ha ha. Yes, I meant used for something profitable; should have guessed it was no.
SAcademy: Under the heading of keeping the old folks entertained.
OscagneTX: Mrs. H. We have a local dial-up that connects us for about $10/month. Surely there’s a place like that where you are?
ddavitt: I won’t say anything to that one!
SAcademy: I’m in Florida.
ddavitt: Well, looks as if this might be it…do we want to begin?
ddavitt: The topic is the evolution of presentation…which sounds more complex than I meant it to
ddavitt: I was thinking of how books in paper form are the tip of the iceberg
ddavitt: What H books are best suited for new media like books on tape?
ddavitt: Will we all be reading them on a screen in a few decades? That sort of thing
OscagneTX: I read a lot of ebooks. Baen has a free library download site. Its very convenient because I have a lot of time to read at work.
OscagneTX: I had thought to offer to convert some Heinlein books to e-format but didn’t want to bug Mrs. H anymore that I’m sure she’s already bugged.
ddavitt: I think some of the books are almost meant to be read out loud and others not so much.
ddavitt: Could be they were written with radio shows in mind?
OscagneTX: short stories, yes.
Paradis402: Are eBooks like softbooks?
ddavitt: I can’t read much on a computer screen
OscagneTX: And I think the juvies would be very good for radio.
OscagneTX: ebooks can be read off the computer, I read them on my palm pilot.
ddavitt: What about TEFL which is almost all dialogue in a way?
ddavitt: But something like IWFNE…I don’t know, I think some are best read in your head so to speak.
OscagneTX: That’s one of the things I like about TEFL. It’d be very difficult because of it’s length though. It would either be VERY long or heavily edited.
ddavitt: Which would spoil it..
ddavitt: Books on tape are either very good or very bad depending on if they match your imaginings
OscagneTX: You might be able to make a case for make a radio show out of the vignettes of TEFL, though. They are short enough, and stories of their own.
ddavitt: I heard one of the Winnie the Pooh stories and hated Piglet’s voice
Paradis402: Are the authors compensated for eBook use?
ddavitt: Getting the sound effects is nice; be good to hear Rhysling’s songs
OscagneTX: IWFNE had a lot of mind-talk dialogue, that would be good for radio, but terrible for little or big screen.
ddavitt: Yes, break it up into a series of stories perhaps.
ddavitt: Yes; another method of presentation that’s becoming common. One could say Harry Potter was written to be filmed, especially with the current excellence of SFX
ddavitt: Heinlein books no longer contain anything that can’t be filmed; if they did ST again they could fake the powered suits.
OscagneTX: CGI is opening a lot of possiblities for film. LOTR would have been ruined if it had been done live-action ten years ago.
ddavitt: Yes; that was a really great film. I first read it when I was 13 and have seen a few versions that were dire
OscagneTX: I mentioned on the ng, I wish I wish I wish Ridley Scott had done ST.
SAcademy: Jane, our Army did make those powered suits.
ddavitt: But how much was fake? oodles I bet
ddavitt: I remeber the Olympics one Ginny
Paradis402: I saw that Ginny. Pretty neat.!
ddavitt: But nowadays they wouldn’t need to use a real one I bet
OscagneTX: I haven’t seen that. I’ve seen the stories about how they’re trying to manufacture powered armor. That was mentioned in the ng.
SAcademy: No, actually when the Olympics began in LA a few years ago, they started it with an army man jumping into the stadioum
SAcademy: Bill won’t be here tonight, I expect. He had to do laundry because San Francisco calls him–his eye doctor.
ddavitt: I was thinking more of the aliens; Wormface, Sir Isaac, Lummox…all could be done so they looked real, not fake
ddavitt: Oh, fair enough Wonder where Dave Wright and AG are?
Paradis402: This suit was on the AOL page recently. Gave RAH credit. I think David Silver sent a link on Google.
ddavitt: I will save the log from where I came in.
SAcademy: I’m sorry No I don’t know.
ddavitt: But again, a film is far from the printed word. I worry that books might disappear.
SAcademy: I think they are safe!
ddavitt: Well, mine won’t..but if it gets to the point where I walk into a books tore and all I’m offered is tapes or CD’s, I’ll be..annoyed.
OscagneTX: I seriously doubt books will go away.
ddavitt: I hope so Ginny…but I never thought our vinyl albums would turn into unplayable museum artifacts
ddavitt: Tried buying a turntable steroe? Hen’s teeth
OscagneTX: There have been studies… people can’t retain what they read on a monitor nearly as well as on a printed page.
SAcademy: They might be in a different form Jane, but they won’t go away.
ddavitt: But I don’t want a different form
ddavitt: I like books.
OscagneTX: I like old musty dusty books. I just don’t have any.
ddavitt: I read fiction online and I skim so fast; that’s probably why it doesn’t stick as much
SAcademy: I just said “might” But books will always exist–what would schools do without them?
ddavitt: Little screen on every desk probably
OscagneTX: what an expensive desk.
ddavitt: Or home schools like that Asimov short story, “The Fun They Had”
ddavitt: We had that read out to us in school assembly once.
SAcademy: Haven’t read that.
OscagneTX: unless schools close. *shudder*
ddavitt: It’s a kid who learns about the old days when children went to school, played with each other..thinks how much fun it must have been. She is taught via a computer
SAcademy: S’matter don’t you like kids?
Paradis402: I still think there is serious risk to the authors in eBook formats. How will they get paid?
ddavitt: At home; no contact with a teacher or other students.
OscagneTX: Me? not particularly. But I don’t have any of my own. Too afraid I’d end up being my dad.
ddavitt: Sell the rights, get money every time it’s downlaoded?
SAcademy: There’s a lot of home schooling now.
ddavitt: I live for term time…
ddavitt: Seriously, I wouldn’t feel qualified.
SAcademy: Lots of the teachers are not!
ddavitt: And getting Eleanor to work with all the distractions at home would be impossible.
OscagneTX: I’d bet this computer I’m typing on that you’re more qualified than %60 of our local teachers, Jane.
ddavitt: She loves school; got 6 out of 6 on her spelling test today and her French is tres excellent 🙂
pjscott100 has entered the room.
ddavitt: I taught her to read and do sums ( she’s 6) but I couldn’t teach her as well as she is being taught. Interaction is vital too.
SAcademy: She will probably have a better accent than most of us acquire.
ddavitt: Yes; she’s being taught by a French lady.
ddavitt: Hi ther
pjscott100: Sorry I’m late
SAcademy: So was I. In high school.
Paradis402: At 6? That’s great!
ddavitt: No problem
ddavitt: Don’t they do that in the US?
OscagneTX: 6 is first grade. just barely being taught to read in public schools.
SAcademy: Do what?
Paradis402: Hi PJ.
ddavitt: Here all grade 1’s do some French but we opted for French immersion; half of each day, the lessons are taught in french, math, science and French itself
OscagneTX: 5 is kindergarten. learning letters and numbers and how to “work and play well with others”.
ddavitt: Learn french or a second language
SAcademy: No, I didn’t take French until HS
pjscott100: Ditto (UK)
ddavitt: In the Uk it was 11 but may be earlier now. Eleanor is soaking it up
Paradis402: Are you in the UK now PJ?
SAcademy: Denis has a fine French accent.
pjscott100: It depended on the school. Private UK schools taught it earlier when I was there (70s)
OscagneTX: We got Spanish in junior high… (8th grade), but it was only for “gifted and talented” because the district saw foriegn lang as a high school subject.
ddavitt: A lot is taught via music too; she learned the numbers to 10 with a song about Violette which is still in my head
pjscott100: No longer in UK, spent 18 years in L.A. and last 3 in British Columbia
ddavitt: I’m in Ontario
Paradis402: Nice to have you join us.
pjscott100: David Silver told me about this at LosCon but I don’t see him here
ddavitt: We have drifted a bit but we’re discussing the way books are presented in many different ways now and how Heinlein’s books fit with the new formats
pjscott100: Thank you.
ddavitt: Hopefully he’ll pop by later.
ddavitt: I think some of his stories are made for audio for instance.
pjscott100: I have often felt that his stuff is completely optimized for books and does not translate well to other media.
ddavitt: In a way, all books should be capable of being read out loud
pjscott100: Writers should learn from him how their job is not to write a novelization of a screenplay that doesn’t yet exist.
ddavitt: But a complex one like say A Tom Clancy would suffer I think
OscagneTX: New formats… has anyone ever made a computer or video game with a Heinlein work?
ddavitt: I think there’s an ST one
pjscott100: So much stuff these days clearly reads like they’re anticipating the movie (Michael Crichton, Terry Brooks…)
OscagneTX: That would be tied to the movie, then, Jane?
SAcademy: Yes, there have been several games.
ddavitt: Yes, some books feel like ‘book of the film’ before there is a film
ddavitt: With an eye to the profits I suppose.
pjscott100: Some of H’s characters’ dialog looks great on paper but doesn’t sound right when read aloud, IMHO.
ddavitt: Yet I suppose books have been made into films from the very start of the film era?
ddavitt: Good source of plots and scripts
ddavitt: Maybe it’s not just a modern thing.
pjscott100: But that could be me… I noticed in e.g. Destination Moon that the characters spoke that way and the speech patterns have been more common in the 40s; noticed it in The Fountainhead also
SAcademy: I am fading fast Jane. Please excuse me if I leave.
SAcademy: Nite all.
OscagneTX: good night, Mrs. H.
ddavitt: Of course!
Paradis402: Bye Ginny.
SAcademy has left the room.
ddavitt: Tanks for coming
ddavitt: Darn, fingers getting tired
ddavitt: Has anyone ever heard a Heinlein book on tape btw?
ddavitt: I haven’t
ddavitt: Might rent one from the library if they have one
OscagneTX: nope. But I don’t use them.
Paradis402: Yes. Two or three.
ddavitt: Nor I
ddavitt: What were they like?
pjscott100: It would spoil it for me to have to follow it at someone else’s pace instead of mine
ddavitt: Yes; I read very fast. But I hear they’re great for long car journeys
Paradis402: The ones I have are very good. Job is one.
ddavitt: Who was Alex?
pjscott100: Oh, sometimes I’ll read a part very slowly because it’s so good I want to savor it
Paradis402: I’m trying to remember.
ddavitt: I always start a precious new book reading slowly to make it last…heh. Never works.
ddavitt: Do you think it’s best with a non famous name?
Paradis402: The man from uncle, I think. Forget his name.
ddavitt: I didn’t like Piglet because it was a female actress and i saw him as male
ddavitt: Oh…interesting choice.
OscagneTX: Robert something, isnt’ it?
ddavitt: I can get to the end of a book and not know the names of all the characters..especially if they’re invented ones in a fnatasy book
Paradis402: There you go.
ddavitt: I should slow down.
Paradis402: He did all the chareacters. And very well too.
ddavitt: But I know if I like it I’ll read it again many times and I pick up details I’d missed then
ddavitt: All of them? Even margrethe?
Paradis402: Yes. Thanks for the name Oscagne.
OscagneTX: You know… I always skipped all the descriptive bits if they weren’t necessary to the plot. Sometimes I wind up going back… but I don’t have to do much skipping in Heinlein books.
ddavitt: The Winnie the Pooh one ( sorry to harp on it but it’s the only one I heard) had lots of voices.
ddavitt: I can skim a page in seconds..sometimes i go back and read it all if I think I missed something vital.
ddavitt: Like the ID of the murderer
ddavitt: I can’t understand people who take months to read a book…
pjscott100: there isn’t usually much in the way of descriptive bits in RAH
OscagneTX: usually i have to go back when I see something like “she turned to the blond boy” and realize I don’t know which one is blond.
pjscott100: You can read an entire book and not know how old the main character is or what race they are
pjscott100: and you know, I don’t care
pjscott100: If it was important he’d have said so.
ddavitt: Sometimes it’s nice to have your own version, that’s just yours.
Paradis402: That’s the good part of it for me. I can make it up for myself.
ddavitt: Not be hampered by what the author said
pjscott100: I just tried to reread The Hobbit and it drove me crazy with all that stuff.
ddavitt: I love that book.
OscagneTX: I really like the race/nationality-jumping that Heinlein did.
pjscott100: Boring descriptions of scenery and people.
ddavitt: Not many…
OscagneTX: oh, yeah… Tolkien is famous for that….
OscagneTX: I don’t really care to which consistency Bilbo’s eggs were fried.
ddavitt: it was a quest, scenery is generic, marshes, forests, mountains
ddavitt: No, I have to disagree there.
ddavitt: But we won’t fall out over it:-)
pjscott100: RAH gets into what you want to know right away
ddavitt: I suppose you didn’t care what colour hoods the dwarves were wearing?
OscagneTX: it didn’t occur to me. Was that a plot point?
pjscott100: Look at Double Star; see how fast the action is going? What would it be like if he’d gone the usual route of telling you what all the bottles behind the bar were?
ddavitt: Sharon Green said she tried to copy Heinelin when she started writing
Paradis402: Exactly PJ. But I’m a rabid RAH fan.
ddavitt: Found out that she couldnt because without H’s skill, she was left with no descriptions and it felt flat
ddavitt: He could pull it off
pjscott100: I would be too, except I’d rather not equate affection with hydrophobia
ddavitt: Not many others could get away with never mentioning a hair colour
Paradis402: I stand corrected. 🙂
OscagneTX: maybe that’s where I have my problem. I’ve done some short stories.. and they focus on dialogue bacause that’s the part I enjoy reading. I don’t like or enjoy writing unnecessary scenery. Maybe its not unnecessary.
ddavitt: I think it’s pointless to go overboard because it’s hard to convey in words the majestic view from the top of a mountain or such.
ddavitt: JKJ said something about that in 3 men and a boat
ddavitt: Or the sequel; a poet is going on about a wood
ddavitt: School kids being quizzed on it; one is asked to sum it up; he says, “it was the usual sort of a wood’
pjscott100: which brings me back to how RAH is so optimized for books, that translation to other media is problematic.
ddavitt: back to the topic!! That’s not allowed is it?
pjscott100: Take e.g. the cell scene in Gulf. Pretty hard to show that in a movie.
ddavitt: Or a tape
OscagneTX: yup. movie makers have to make up a lot of stuff to fill in the graphics… and usually screw it up.
ddavitt: But what about say Glory Road?
pjscott100: They’re dealing cards and translating them into a code.
pjscott100: Ah, that one would do well.
ddavitt: That would do well as a film..until they tried to do the end
OscagneTX: a book on tape wouldn’t really have that problem… its just a verbaitim or abridged version of the book. A radio show is different. You have to figure out a way to verbalize visuals for that.
ddavitt: They would end it with him going home in triumph and want to miss off the disllusionment
pjscott100: Okay, talking about really different media… how about a RAH theme park? 🙂
ddavitt: Interesting differnce there Oscagne. Never thought of that
ddavitt: ooh, you’ve been reading the new Spider Robinson!
pjscott100: No I haven’t, what’d he say?
ddavitt: The free Lunch?
ddavitt: It’s a theme park with several Heinlein areas
pjscott100: Hmm, Great Minds Think Alike
ddavitt: Including Lummox stampeding down Bon Marche evry day
OscagneTX: new Spider? is it out already?
pjscott100: Bet he will collect the royalties though
ddavitt: I read it from the library a few months back
OscagneTX: oh… I’ll have to look it up.
ddavitt: I enjoyed it.
OscagneTX: You get to Amazon through the H. Society website these days?
ddavitt: It’s a nice theme park
pjscott100: But wouldn’t it be great if you could go talk with Heinlein characters, people who were trained so well that they would react just that way?
ddavitt: Yes you can
ddavitt: And if you buy that way, we get dosh:-)
ddavitt: not just on books either…
ddavitt: It would be wonderful…I have nightmares about Disneyworld but a Heinlein one would be fun
OscagneTX: eiw… how about a Disney version of Heinlein-world? that’s nightmare-time.
ddavitt: eek, yes.
ddavitt: They wanted to do Star Beast didn’t they?
pjscott100: And the best part is, so much stuff fits into the same Universe (Future History) that it’d all be integrated
ddavitt: I think the option has lapsed.
OscagneTX: giggle…could you imagine the Disney version of Worm-Face. Probably have Danny Devito’s voice.
ddavitt: I don’t want Eleanor buying a Happy Meal with a Lummox in it
OscagneTX: But… Jane… it’d have super-duper-fold-out-able transforming wing-stubs.
pjscott100: Of course, there are the Church of All Worlds people… arguably translating Heinlein into other media…
Paradis402: That was Danny as worm face.
ddavitt: Actually, many of the juveniles would get edited for PC…which is highly ironic as they already went thru the Alice scrutiny
ddavitt: Too many kids with guns…and Clark kills too many people for an 11 year old.
pjscott100: The irony of which is that they accepted language at a reading level which would be too high for kids today
pjscott100: And can’t have books implying that kids should know how to do trig… would make too many of today’s kids feel inadequate.
ddavitt: I started with HSS-WT and that places heavy emphasis on value of good schooling
ddavitt: And of bad schools and students who make the effort themselves
ddavitt: Too subversive maybe…
OscagneTX: How would you convert those analog computers into their digital counterparts. The computing power he described in lots of those stories would fit cumulatively into my Palm Pilot.
pjscott100: Exactly… it among others motivated me to exceed the education I was being given
ddavitt: Wouldn’t matter. You could leave it alone as an alternate universe or just tweak it a bit
pjscott100: Not everything has to be preserved. His stories don’t hinge on the size of the hardware.
ddavitt: Starman Jones couldn’t be tweaked of course
ddavitt: But HSS would be OK.
ddavitt: We still don’t have ships that go at more than light speed
ddavitt: And the space suit is similar to today’s model
OscagneTX: more’s the pity.
pjscott100: Don’t even have a space program like we did 30 years ago
pjscott100: In some respects.
Paradis402: That is sad.
ddavitt: Yes but we are still looking to mars
pjscott100: If we’d kept going at 1969 rate we’d have condos there by now.
ddavitt: When we get there we can do such a lot using remotes
ddavitt: We have progressed well in areas that will be of huge value to making the space program more efficient
Paradis402: I’m still searching for the Heinlein crater on Mars on the net.
pjscott100: What do you want, a picture? Coordinates?
ddavitt: Is it on Jim G’s site?
ddavitt: Or are they the lunar ones?
Paradis402: Is it? I’ll have to look.
ddavitt: definitely something there along those lines
Paradis402: All I have is a copy of the GDS picture Yoji sent to Ginny when it was named.
ddavitt: More than some of us:-)
Paradis402: Just one picture with coordinates.
ddavitt: One day, maybe we can have a reunion in that crater.
OscagneTX: I found the picture in my TMIAHM.
Paradis402: That would be nice.
Paradis402: Really? Oxcagne.
OscagneTX: martian latitude -64.6 and longitude 243.8 in Quad MC28SE on Map I-1453
Paradis402: Right. The one where I see what looks like Taffy. One of Robert’s favourite cats.
ddavitt: I have a Norton’s Star Atlas..I forget if it has large scale map of mars. I’ll have to check
OscagneTX: That’s a US Geological Survey map.
pjscott100: I should be able to find this… I work for JPL. Trying now…
ddavitt: Mars belongs to the US?:-P
Paradis402: To Robert. Thre’s a difference.
ddavitt: Now that’s one place where ebooks would come in handy; a space ship
OscagneTX: you bet.
ddavitt: Real books are ( as I know too well) very heavy in bulk
ddavitt: I’ll allow space missions to leave behind the first editions
OscagneTX: I said before… I download books all the time from Baen. And even the ones that aren’t free are about $10 for 6 or 7 books. Amazing what price you can get when you don’t have to pay for paper.
pjscott100: distracted by parrot roaming on floor and cats crying…
ddavitt: And once we’re colonising, very nice to have new books emailed out to us:-)
OscagneTX: you parrot attacked your cats and made them cry?
Paradis402: That’s an interesting picture PJ.
ddavitt: brb; lauren squawking since we’re talking parrots
pjscott100: cat is looking for door into summer
pjscott100: was raised in LA and not used to BC winters
OscagneTX: There’s a point… lots of scifi authors supposed that luxury items in the belt and elsewhere would be books or other entertainment… ala The Rolling Stones doing a radio show in the asteroids.
OscagneTX: But with digital media… fiction and movies can be uploaded to explorers… no loss of delta v.
OscagneTX: should be…
ddavitt: Clever clogs:-)
ddavitt: But not fair to expect H to predict it.
Paradis402: Nice riposte Oscagne!
ddavitt: hang on; more crying
OscagneTX: er… true not fair, not true good ripost…. %^)
Paradis402: I’m thinking in French. Not a good idea here.
Paradis402: But you do a good Jubal imitation.
ddavitt: OK; sent David up with milk and medication; lots of teeth popping thru
pjscott100: getting lousy throughput to JPL… have browsable Mars map up.. Where is it?
pjscott100: oh wait, I see latlong above
OscagneTX: martian latitude -64.6 and longitude 243.8 in Quad MC28SE on Map I-1453
Paradis402: South pole? Near Kepler?
OscagneTX: The cite doesn’t say…
pjscott100: hmm, I can zoom in there but map is not annotated…
OscagneTX: Aparently its near enought the southern polar cap to be covered in solid CO2 in the winter.
OscagneTX: they think there is water under it, so its “attractive to human settlement”.
OscagneTX: water ice, that is.
Paradis402: It would be nice if they posted it on APOD.
pjscott100: longitude 243.8 is same as -116.2 I guess…
OscagneTX: dunno. I’m not familiar with areology.
ddavitt: Heinlein said there’d be ice on Mars…
Paradis402: If you can get it on APOD, I’ll send you a picture of Taffy. 🙂
OscagneTX: what’s APOD?
OscagneTX: I can scan and send this picture. the quality won’t be terrific, though.
Paradis402: Astrononmical picture of the day. JPL?
ddavitt: Incidentally, he could do descriptions when he needed; Rhysling’s one liners about the planets were lovely..and the one about the Singing Waters
OscagneTX: ah… I haven’t freqently looked at that.
ddavitt: I am going to have to disappear now; sorry
ddavitt: Can anyone log this for Dave Wright?
ddavitt: I can do it up to now and email it to him
Paradis402: OK Jane. Bye and take care. I can send him my copy too.
pjscott100: Does this look like the picture: Click Here
ddavitt: Oh well, you were here before me Denis so that would do fine; thanks!
OscagneTX: g’night, Jane.
pjscott100: Good night!
ddavitt: Night all, thanks for coming.
ddavitt has left the room.
OscagneTX: that’s not it. secondary craters don’t match.
Paradis402: Thanks PJ. I ‘ve saved it for later. It worked. It’s not it?
OscagneTX: not it.
OscagneTX: again… I can scan and email, dcc, or ftp. If you want it. Its b/w .
pjscott100: We just need to find the right place on this map… everything’s there
Paradis402: See what I meant about the net? Maybe I’m just not good a surfing.
pjscott100: [editor note: link failed to carry across to edited version]
pjscott100: oops, second
pjscott100: try this: Click Here
pjscott100: er… that’s the same one, never mind
pjscott100: yet the coordinates match
pjscott100: is mars like the moon, north and south inverted?
OscagneTX: I found it, but the url is too long to paste in one… so hold one.
OscagneTX: Click Here
OscagneTX: that’s all.
Paradis402: Nice picture. I will have to study it more. Thanks.
OscagneTX: no problem. looking was fun.
Paradis402: Let me know if you want it as a JPEG attachment. I’m not good at sending pics on other than AOL.
pjscott100: aha! It is the same as the one I pasted, just that there’s some distortion making it hard to recognize
OscagneTX: jpeg is good.
Paradis402: OK. You too PJ.
pjscott100: It’s Peter… thanks, and good night
OscagneTX: is it? um… the little craters at 10:00 and 4:30 didn’t match.
OscagneTX: good night.
Paradis402: Good night to both you astronomers.
pjscott100: it’s dead center and has a line running through it… top half is blurred
OscagneTX: have a good night, both… %^)
OscagneTX has left the room.
Paradis402: Log closed and saved for David,
pjscott100 has left the room.
Final End Of Discussion Log