Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 12-01-2001 05:00 P.M. EST ‘Pretty Boys’ in Heinlein

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 12-01-2001 05:00 P.M. EST

‘Pretty Boys’ in Heinlein

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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
Let’s think about why Heinlein would make his Heroes Pretty in the first place, for Saturday’s chat. During Thursday’s chat on this topic we started scratching around into the subject of prettiness and ugliness in both Heinlein’s characters and in “art,” itself. Denis happened to mention that in private conversation, Robert Heinlein frequently was likely to allude to the famous last lines to John Keats’ “Ode on a Grecian Urn,”

“Beauty is truth, truth beauty, — that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.”

I’m not a particular fan of the English Romantic poets; but Keats, so long as he stayed artistically as far as possible away from Shelley, is the one I find most tolerable to my taste. I can’t tell you why, I just do. In amelioration, I point out my now-sainted mother always said, “All your taste is your mouth, David.”

In Heinlein’s Stranger in a Strange Land, there’s a discussion as was pointed out in this Thursday’s chat about Auguste Rodin’s artistry. One of Jubal’s favorite pieces is the sculpture “She who was once the Helmet-Maker’s Beautiful Wife” [aka “La Belle Heaulmière”] (1888). Another is “The Fallen Caryatid Carrying its Stone” (1881). Rodin intended to juxtapose these two figures–and others destined for the doors of the Museum of Decorative Arts (the ‘never-ending’ “Gates of Hell” as some have described it). Finally, there’s a discussion about a third figure: Hans Christian Andersen’s mermaid, and the statute in commemoration of her that sits in Københabn harbor.

Of these artistic figures, Jubal says [at pp. 395-99, 1991 ed.] to Ben Caxton:

[Concerning “La Belle Heaulmière”]: “Anyone can look at a pretty girl and see a
pretty girl. An artist can look at a pretty girl and see the old woman she will
become. A better artist can look at an old woman and see the pretty girl she
used to be. But a _ great _ artist–a master–and that is what Auguste Rodin
was–can look at an old woman, and portray her _ exactly _ as she is … and
force the viewer to see the pretty girl she used to be … and more than that,
he can make anyone with the sensitivity of an armadillo, or even you, see that
this lovely young girl is still alive, not old and ugly at all, but simply
prisoned inside her ruined body. He can make you feel the quiet, endless
tragedy that there never was a girl born who ever grew older than eighteen in
her heart … no matter what the merciless hours have done to her.”
[Concerning “Caryatid”]: “Call it a tour de force in empathy, Ben. I won’t
expect you to appreciate the shapes and masses which make that figure much more
than a ‘pretzel’ — but you can appreciate what Rodin was saying. … for
almost three thousand years or longer, architects have designed buildings with
columns shaped as female figures–it got to be such a habit that they did is as
casually as a small boy steps on ants. … it took Rodin to see that this was
work too heavy for a girl. But he didn’t say, ‘Look, you jerks, if you must
design that way, make it a brawny male figure.’ No, he _ showed _ it … and
generalized the symbol. Here is this poor little caryatid who has tried–and
failed, fallen under the load. She’s a good girl–look at her face. Serious,
unhappy at her failure, but not blaming anyone else, not even the gods … and
still trying to shoulder her load … this symbol is sexless. … Victory in

[And, finally, concerning “Mermaid”]:

“She sits by the harbor … she’s
everyone who ever has made a difficult choice … doesn’t regret her choice,
but must pay for it; every choice must be paid for … every step is on sharp

Jubal goes on to say:

“_ art _ is the process of evoking pity and terror, which
is not abstract at all but very human. … more like intercourse, in which the
artist must seduce–render emotional–his audience, each time.”

All of this, of course, smacks of aesthetics, fairly esoteric stuff for an artist who said he wrote simply to put groceries on the table. “Art” and “aesthetics” are both words that begin with “a” on which opinions vary, and on which everyone who has something else that begins with an “a” has an equally worthy opinion – but only if you wish to follow the postmodernism school of thought, but consider these three principles above in shorthand. Call them embodiments of ‘beauty’ (inner beauty or ethics if you will), ‘strength of character’ (or responsibility, another sort of ethos), and ‘mature wisdom’ (or experience); and then ask yourself: how is this shown in our “pretty boys”? What about Oscar? The Great Lorenzo? Galahad? Waldo? And Valentine Michael Smith? from whose book these definitions of artistic principles come.

Can we say anything about them, and their ‘prettiness’ in light of these three artistic principles used to seduce us? Saturday’s chat begins at 5 PM, EST. See you there, I hope.

David M. Silver
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

DavidWrightSr: Hi Ginny

DavidWrightSr: Didn’t expect to see anyone here yet.

DavidWrightSr: I always like to start up early so I can get a full log.

DavidWrightSr: But we’ve go over an hour before we start and I have to run to the store.

Paradis401 has entered the room.

Paradis401: Good afternoon, Ginny and David.

Paradis401 has left the room.

Paradis401 has entered the room.

SAcademy: Good afteernoon, gentlemen

Paradis401: Hi Ginny, You’re beautifully pink!

SAcademy: BTW, Denis, if you touch”esc” it will throw you offline.

Paradis401: I am scared of all those buttons ecept the regular keyboard.

SAcademy: Well, just don’t use them then. Or even try to, you might find out what they mean.

SAcademy: What was that remark aabout me being pink?

Paradis401: I won’t. This HP ketboard has a lot of buttons on it and none of them do what they should, So I never touch. Pink is your color on my screen right now,

SAcademy: Oh, you mean my screen name?

Paradis401: Yes.

SAcademy: Pink is not a color I would choose.

Paradis401: AOL does the choosing I guess, Actually it more of a hot pink.

SAcademy: We got started early on thursday, I wonder whether Kultsi and Sean will be here today?

Paradis401: I hope so. Sean is the Aussie?

SAcademy: Yes, he is.

Paradis401: I forget who the Welshman is.

SAcademy: Sometimes we have some Brits, too.

SAcademy: I don’t know who the Welshman is.

Paradis401: It makes you feel like the UN. On line, I mean.

SAcademy: Have to go and get a fresh glass of water

Paradis401: Good for you.

SAcademy: Well, it is nice to have other countries here.

SAcademy: BRB

Paradis401: I expect a good showing. It was fun on Thursday.

SAcademy: Back,

SAcademy: How many came?

Paradis401: About a dozen. Bill dropped in at the end but said he would be here today.

SAcademy: Maybe he’s been working on the Journal–it’s getting to time for another issue.

Paradis401: He said he was very busy.

SAcademy: Yes, he’s been working on the biog of Robert.

Paradis401: I’m delighted to hear it. He’s doing a very good job.

SAcademy: I help him with details–you’ve seen his short biog?

SAcademy: Jim Gifford has it posted.

Paradis401: That’s why I said he was doing a good job, based on his previous work. Now you’re both probably doing an excellent job!

SAcademy: I went over the short biog for accuracy.

SAcademy: Heard a door open.

Paradis401: I’ll bet you did. Nice part of it. It’s not about Bill – unlike other biographers. He’s not inflated with himself.

Paradis401: Door must be on you Buddy List.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Guys. I’m back.

Paradis401: Hi David.

SAcademy: Hello David.

SAcademy: Bill is coming.

KultsiKN has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Kultsi

Paradis401: Hi Kultsi.

SAcademy: Hello, Kultsi

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Hi all!

SAcademy: Hello, Bill.

DavidWrightSr: Hi Bill. Welcome

KultsiKN: Hello, Bill

Paradis401: Hi Bill.

BPRAL22169: Hello, Ginny, Denis, David, Kultsi

SAcademy: How are things in Helsinki, Kultsi?

BPRAL22169: The fruitcakes are done.

Paradis401: Yummy!

KultsiKN: Getting drier.

SAcademy: That’s nice. Now all you have to do is douse them in liquor.

BPRAL22169: Already started.

BPRAL22169: Dark rum — Pusser’s

SAcademy: Isn’t that too soon?

BPRAL22169: British navy rum

KultsiKN: The nice part is tasting the liqour…

Paradis401: You Navy types are all alike!

SAcademy: Is Kultsi Navy?

BPRAL22169: I started as soon as the individual ones were ready — I made 4 baby loafs and 4 individuals in brioche moulds.

KultsiKN: NO WAY — actually an army reject.

SAcademy: Anyone else watch the Army-Navy game?

Paradis401: No – just a touch of skating which was dreadful.

SAcademy: Poor Navy got hammered–I can’t remember the score, but it was bad.

SAcademy: Can’t do your school figures anymore, Denis?

Paradis401: Sure I can and I definitely will Next Year.

SAcademy: Oh, is it outdoor skating in Michigan?

SAcademy: Loop changeloop?

Paradis401: No rink near here. Louisville.

SAcademy: You’ll enjoy that. I would too.

Paradis401: I know it. I can hardly wait.

KultsiKN: Ginny, there’s a pic of you on ice.

SAcademy: Where?

DavidWrightSr: In one of the books wasn’t it. Grumbles?

KultsiKN: Grumbles

SAcademy: Oh, yes. I had forgotten that.

SAcademy: There’s one I have skating the blues with someone, that I really like.

BPRAL22169: Fred?

SAcademy: No, His name (believe it or not) was Joe Brown.

BPRAL22169: I don’t believe you’ve mentioned him to me.

DavidWrightSr: Hey, I went to Joe Brown High School, probably not the same guy. mine was named after the Governor of Georgia during the Civil War.

DavidWrightSr: 🙂

SAcademy: I don’t think it was the same one. The one I mentioned lived in Batimore.

DavidWrightSr: You aren’t that old either 🙂

Paradis401: Are you going to have pictures in the new biog?

SAcademy: You mean I don’t remember the Civil War? Well, you’re right

BPRAL22169: There will be new pictures.

DavidWrightSr: O:-)

Paradis401: Great!!!

SAcademy: Where did you find that one?

DavidWrightSr: When do you expect it to be finished?

DavidWrightSr: What? This? O:-) [Editor’s Note: AIM uses graphic smileys. This one is a smiley face with a halo]

BPRAL22169: Well, NitroSyncretic Press is going to bring out an expanded version of the sketch early next year.

SAcademy: Yes, David.

BPRAL22169: It’s going to take about a year or so to complete the formal bio. I’m writing while finishing up the research.

DavidWrightSr: On the bottom row of my smileys when I click on it. next to the link button.

DavidWrightSr: I’m hoping for Phils book for this Christmas. I can look forward to yours for next

SAcademy: I don’t have that one. Maybe it’s a different version of AiM?

BPRAL22169: I understand Jim is working on Phil’s right now. It was a tough book to edit.

SAcademy: I know. I read it.

BPRAL22169: It was really two books when it was originally written — the book on Heinlein’s political and esthetic philosophy, and the book on Heinlein as adult educator

DavidWrightSr: I’ll send you the character combination when I edit the log, so that you can type it in directly

Paradis401: Phil who?

BPRAL22169: Owenby

DavidWrightSr: He said that he hoped to have it out by end of November, but I guess it is going to be delayed.

Paradis401: Thanks.

SAcademy: Denis, I worked with him, too.

BPRAL22169: Phillip Homer Owenby, Ph.D. — his 1996 doctoral dissertation.

Paradis401: Great and good things.

KultsiKN: Indeed. This company is somewhat… overwhelming.

BPRAL22169: I understand book sales have slowed down considerably with the recession.

DavidWrightSr: I bring down the average 🙂

Paradis401: Me too, Kutlsi.

DenvToday has entered the room.

DenvToday: Good afternoon everybody!

BPRAL22169: Yo

KultsiKN: Hi, Denv!

Paradis401: Hi Denv. Snowing?

DenvToday: No, it’s sunny and warn today.

DenvToday: warm

BPRAL22169: Raining here — though no thunder so far.

OscagneTX has entered the room.

DenvToday: Hi Oscagne

KultsiKN: Hi, TX!

OscagneTX: Howdy

BPRAL22169: We are all high techs.

BPRAL22169: In a low sort of a way.

Paradis401: Is that what TX means?

SAcademy: Taxes, of course.

KultsiKN: 🙂

BPRAL22169: That, too.

Paradis401: 😀

DenvToday: 😛

SAcademy: Shall we get the show on the road?

DavidWrightSr: Wonder where AG is. He is supposed to be leading this topic. Hope everything is ok.

BPRAL22169: It’s Denis’ topic, isn’t it?

Paradis401: Should we start talking about Pretty boys?

SAcademy: Why not?

DavidWrightSr: Right. forgot that

BPRAL22169: Set the stage, why don’t you?

Paradis401: Ok. Who’s pretty?

OscagneTX: Sorry… had to adjust my contacts. TX = Texas.

KultsiKN: Just look at me. 😎

DenvToday: lol

Paradis401: You’ll do, Kultsi.

KultsiKN: In a very robust way

Paradis401: I wonder if Jubal thought Michael was pretty.

DenvToday: The ultimate pretty boy – Galahad

SAcademy: That’s what I think, too.

BPRAL22169: I believe he said as much.

BPRAL22169: And let’s not forget Capt. Yancey.

Paradis401: Galahad was Obediah Jones, right?

KultsiKN: Right.

DavidWrightSr has left the room.

BPRAL22169: I know someone who wants to do an article for the Journal about how there was no room in Heinlein’s worlds for the “differently abled.”

KultsiKN: Well, Colin had other… compensations.

BPRAL22169: I point out things like that, and she goes away grumping.

DenvToday: lol Very true Kult.

Paradis401: Has she read ANY Heinlein Bill?

BPRAL22169: Incidentally, I don’t see David Wright’s alter ego here — David may need us to send him the parts of the log he will miss.

DenvToday: Good for you, Bill. RAH gets enough unfair criticism as it is.

BPRAL22169: That reminds me — this is a bit off topic, but do any of you run into that criticism that the incest bits in the last books are just RAH being a dirty old man or working out some personal kinks in print?

KultsiKN: Bill, saved this far

DenvToday: Let’s not forget Lt. Col. Racek (spelling) in Starship Troopers.

BPRAL22169: Thanks

BPRAL22169: Or the recruiting agent in the same book.

Paradis401: Yes, but RAG gets only criticism from Nut and Alices.

Paradis401: RAH

BPRAL22169: OK, I now understand the first half of that last sentence!

OscagneTX: Was Raczek (?) injured? I thought that was Col. Dubois.

KultsiKN: Bill, being a DOM meself it doesn’t bother me.

AGplusone has entered the room.

OscagneTX: Let’s not conflate them like the Horror did.

BPRAL22169: Well, it’s pure laziness on the part of the critic.

SAcademy: Hello, David. We began without you.

BPRAL22169: In literature we find incest motives in two places — the high mimetic and the very low mimetic.

Paradis401: Helle David California.

AGplusone: :::: wave :::: had trouble getting back on line.

DenvToday: Howdy David

BPRAL22169: Since Lazarus Long is surrounded by characters like Ishtar and Galahad and Hamadryad, I think it’s safe to say he’s working in the high mimetic.

KultsiKN: Hi,Dave!

BPRAL22169: RAH is always very straightforward with his readers — too many can’t read or won’t read.

AGplusone:continue … I’m listening.

BPRAL22169: Just working a side comment at the moment.

AGplusone: [who has the log, btw, noting David Wright’s not on?]

Paradis401: I think RAH was way ahead of his time, e.g. his treatment of sex, gay, Negroes etc.

KultsiKN: Me, this far.

DenvToday: I certainly agree Paradis.

AGplusone: Great, thank you, K

BPRAL22169: Certainly ahead of his time in racial terms.

AGplusone: I dunno about ‘straight-forward’ …

BPRAL22169: I’m less certain about sexual matters and the gay attitudes.

Paradis401: I have the log from the start but you’ll have to tell me how to send it to you.

BPRAL22169: He tells us up front what he’s dealing with.

DavidWrightSr has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: He’s baa-aa-a-k!

AGplusone: Pop it into an e-mail and send it to me and Dave.

DavidWrightSr: Got hit by the blue screen of death

AGplusone: and

KultsiKN: Many of you don’t ‘preciate S’pore — to me it was an eye opener.

OscagneTX: Osc notes in passing that WinXP has a BSOD simulator.

DenvToday: Colin accepts Galahad’s kiss in TCWWTW. RAH didn’t avoid the homosexual side of our natures.

KultsiKN: or for me

Paradis401: See Jubal kissing Michael and Ben not wanting to do so.

BPRAL22169: I don’t mean he’s ever retrogressive about sexual matter and social attitudes toward gays — but he positioned himself more “cutting edge” than way ahead of his time in those respects, IMO

BPRAL22169: The Tellus Tertius family is polymorphous perverse in its constitution — just like Secundus in that respect.

KultsiKN: Denv, kissing another male is not necessarily sexual.

OscagneTX: true. That’s a Merkinism, isn’t it?

BPRAL22169: Americans are very screwey about this kind of thing.

DenvToday: But it was in this case, Kult. Colin expressly tells us so, and comments on his feelings about homosexuality.

KultsiKN: Well — there are kisses and kisses.

AGplusone: Do you mean that by the end of Glory Road, after Oscar’s development ensues, Oscar wouldn’t have considered the ‘handsome of face and figure’ interviewee as a “hermaphrodite,” Bill?

DenvToday: I can’t deny it. lol

Paradis401: Gotcha David about the log. Will do. Robert’s males kissing males are more apt today than then… therefore futuristic at the time.

AGplusone: Oscar’s typical of ‘Merikins’ I think.

BPRAL22169: Are you using “hermaphrodite” the way teenagers used to use “morphodike?” David

AGplusone: For 1962 … typical of teenagers of all ages.

BPRAL22169: I.e., have no idea at all what they’re talking about.

AGplusone: yes … but ‘queer’ in the sense meant then

OscagneTX: Yes… I see. He was “contemporary” rather than futuristic, and therefore “should” have been anti-gay (if he wasn’t gay himself).

BPRAL22169: Yes. That’s what I meant.

Paradis401: There are no guts with tits in any of Robert’s books!

KultsiKN: Even for me — then. 1962, I mean

Paradis401: Guys with tits. And I need new hands.

BPRAL22169: For a man to be made antsy by a “pretty man” indicates some challenges with attraction.

Paradis401: Some lack of maturity.

BPRAL22169: I.e., he’s being forced to confront an attraction in himself that he doesn’t want to confront.

KultsiKN: Definitely, Denis. More than anything alse.

OscagneTX: I dunno… I don’t see many “pretty” men, and when I do I wonder about self-centeredness and vanity.

BPRAL22169: Men who are secure in that respect, don’t have that same reaction. Europeans and Latins don’t have the same emotional challenges about the kiss of peace.

DavidWrightSr: Neither do we Orthodox 🙂

AGplusone: “pressed curly locks” afflicted ’62 young men with those challenges then … evoked Tab Hunter or Troy Donahue …

Paradis401: Thanks. Kultsi.;-)

BPRAL22169: Tab Hunter was gay; Troy Donahue was not.

KultsiKN: Right, Bill, and still it requires a lot of maturity.

AGplusone: [even if “Tab” never had curly locks … that’s true, Bill, but Troy was afflicted with the label]

BPRAL22169: “maturity” in that respect.

AGplusone: ‘too pretty’ label

BPRAL22169: At least, I should say, I am not aware of anything in the news re Donahue, but I am about Tab Hunter.

KultsiKN: To feel that your “maleness” is not in question.

BPRAL22169: Someone who came up about the same time — the name now escapes me — played Jim West in The Wild Wild West.

DenvToday: Robert Conrad

DavidWrightSr: Conrad?

BPRAL22169: Yes, that’s it.

Paradis401: But pretty does not have to be gay. Pretty in Robert’s terms meant handsome.

AGplusone: Also in medieval or romance terms I think …

BPRAL22169: I don’t think his sexuality was ever called into question. Must be something subtle about self-presentation.

AGplusone: the Squire with his pressed curly locks

AGplusone: all those fellows Cyrano spent time crossing swords with … the Elizabethans with their perfume, codpieces, laces collars, who’d rather gut you than speak to you …

AGplusone: different times

KultsiKN: and different costoms, definitely.

KultsiKN: customs, that is

DavidWrightSr: costooms also 🙂

BPRAL22169: True — a powdered wig wouldn’t get you a second look in the Orleans regency — but try it today.

BPRAL22169: I seem to have lost the thread of where we were going with this.

Paradis401: I’d rather go bald first.

DenvToday: We started with Pretty Boys

DenvToday: We veered into homosexuality

AGplusone: and possibly ‘pretty men’ … Michael Crichton in his last novel I read, the one about time travel, does something fascinating to me, they’re back in the 14th century and ‘rescued’ by a beautiful looking knight, who turns out to be

Paradis401: Pretty boys in Heinlein. I think we’re doing pretty well.

AGplusone: the biggest cutthroat in the book.

DenvToday: Ended up with Louis XIII

BPRAL22169: Reminds me of Poul Anderson’s The High Crusade.

DavidWrightSr: I always got a kick out of the things that Robert would do to knock us a little offguard. Such as nail polish on men in BTH, earrings in ST, (which thanks to Ginny), I know now was actually done by the marines in WWII, but it was…

DavidWrightSr: a jolt to me at the time I read them.

AGplusone: … the “perfect, gentle, knight … ”

KultsiKN: oz

Paradis401: The French have always been somewhat prissy. All that brocade, I guess. Heinlein pretty boys are the handsome types women drool over.

KultsiKN: uh… oxymoron

BPRAL22169: If you had to pinpoint one single message RAH had for us, it was that Things Change.

DavidWrightSr: Some or ugly-handsome, like Dak

Paradis401: Sounds good.

DavidWrightSr: Some are..

BPRAL22169: I believe Lazarus Long was described in those terms, too.

DavidWrightSr: He said his nose was too big IIRC

DavidWrightSr: among other things.

AGplusone: Ted Bronson was described at ‘pretty’ … by a girl

BPRAL22169: You can’t get the Things change message if you portray everything the same.

AGplusone: All men think their noses are too big

DavidWrightSr: And, Nope. won’t go there 🙂

BPRAL22169: Reminds me of Dorothy Sayers’ description of Whimsey and St. George. Both were “parrot-beaked” but St. George was too pretty for his own good.

AGplusone: … it happens about the time their mommies take them out of laces and their daddies take them to the barber shop.

Paradis401: Maybe women like that too. Variety.

KultsiKN: And you all know about the direct correlation between the size of the nose and the size…

DavidWrightSr: Another Sayers fan.

AGplusone: of the thumb, right!

BPRAL22169: Doesn’t the makeup artist call Sam Jones “pretty”?

BPRAL22169: Just recalled that one.

AGplusone: Max Jones

DavidWrightSr: Not Sam, but Max

BPRAL22169: Right. Max Jones. Sam “Richardson.”

BPRAL22169: Sam Jones is the actor.

DavidWrightSr: Sam Roberts or Richards

BPRAL22169: Right again.

AGplusone: removes some of the hair, artificially causes wrinkles

AGplusone: aka Sam Anderson

DavidWrightSr: ‘You are too pretty to age you permanently’

KultsiKN: Starman Jones?

DenvToday: Larry’s father in Double Star tells him that he would have been a great actor–if he hadn’t been so pretty.

BPRAL22169: Recalls another one to mind — the candidate in the Mu story.

AGplusone: and they sully up his record by noting he got reduced in grade for smoking in a prohibited space

AGplusone: all to take away attention from a pretty boy

AGplusone: [yes, Starman Jones, K]

DavidWrightSr: Was David Lamb pretty. Just wondered if maybe watching the south end of a north-going mule made them that way 🙂

BPRAL22169: I don’t think Larry’s father said he could hav ebeen a great actor — just that he wasn’t working hard enough; he could relying on his looks.

DavidWrightSr: ‘Too pretty and too stupid, and you are both’

DenvToday: Perhaps he said Larry might have been a great actor. I seem to remember something about that.

BPRAL22169: Great beauty and brains have the same thing in common — people who possess them can slide by without doing the necessary work.

DenvToday: Yes David, I remember that line.

AGplusone: Anyone think I came close about the ‘truth, beauty, beauty truth’ and Jubal’s observations on great art post?

BPRAL22169: That’s a whole major discussion of esthetics.

AGplusone: three artistic principals of character development, perhaps?

BPRAL22169: All truth is beautiful — but it may not be pretty.

Paradis401: You did very well with that post David.

BPRAL22169: I agree, Denis.

AGplusone: unless you see us as we appeared to ourselves in our minds when we were eighteen (men and women alike)

AGplusone: Which is how I view the Helmet Maker’s Wife

DenvToday: Doesn’t work for me. I looked like hell at 18.

AGplusone: ‘to ourselves in our minds’

AGplusone: so did I, that nose really got smashed around between 14 and 18

BPRAL22169: Have you seen La Belle Heaulmiere at the local museum, David?

BPRAL22169: They have a copy at LACMA

AGplusone: never, but I have a set of illustrations. Someone I knew knew I loved the description in Stranger in the late 60s and gave me the books for a birthday present

AGplusone: I’ll have to drop in to LA County Museum of Art

BPRAL22169: I owned 3 books of Rodin but none of them had that one.

OscagneTX: I actually had to go find them on the web. The Rodin museum has them. In rotational 3d I think, but I’ve slept since then.

BPRAL22169: You’ll have to hunt it up — they don’t do anything special with it. It’s about 12-14 inches high and they just had it on a table in a room of miscellaneous stuff when I was last there a few years ago. They’ve also

AGplusone: she really looks terrible, doesn’t she

BPRAL22169: got studies for the Burghers of Calais in the sculpture garden outside.

SAcademy: Rodin frequently made a number of copies of his own sculptures.

BPRAL22169: Yes, Anna Spreckles bought dozens of copies from his atelier while he was still alive — that’s the foundation of the collection at the SF Palace of the Legion of Honor

SAcademy: Tha one could be one o f his–not done by someone else.

DavidWrightSr: It just occurred to me that Jubal’s assessment of Rodin’s works is a lot like the way I see Robert’s works. He makes us see things that we need to see but might not necessarily want to.

Paradis401: Thanks Ginny. Robert’s art references in Stranger surprised me and at the same time moved me very much.

AGplusone: I agree, David … he makes you look at the ugliness to see the beauty beneath it

AGplusone: or the obverse

SAcademy: R. Dragged me to his atelier. I don’t like his work.

BPRAL22169: I think there’s a painter doing that kind of think now — mark Tansey.

DavidWrightSr: Not necessarily ugliness, just things out of the ordinary rut of my ‘universe’

AGplusone: Mrs. Grew is one of his great portraits. Didn’t we all love her in contrast with the two bitches who gossiped against “Goldie” when we read it.

SAcademy: One exception–Le Baiser

Paradis401: Merci, madame.

BPRAL22169: Not “The Thinker,” too.

SAcademy: Thaat’s a marble, rather than a bronze.

BPRAL22169: or Printemps?

OscagneTX: That name… confuzzled me when I read it. My real last name is McGrew…

BPRAL22169: My favorite is not one of the pictorial ones — it’s a hand coming out of a marble base, called “Cathedral.”

AGplusone: And if you read Alex Hergenshimer’s mind without thinking, doesn’t he appear, at first, a perfectly rational person … reasonable, restrained, worthy?

AGplusone: Making the best he can out of the world?

AGplusone: Until you realize the poison he passes so fluently?

BPRAL22169: Illustrates the principle that evil is banal.

DenvToday: Excellent point.

Paradis401: Rodin’s Penseur looked good to me before someone called it Le Chieur (the shitter). That was awful!

AGplusone: World’s Handsomest University President … well-reasoned, respected, concilatory …


AGplusone: the Press loved him.

AGplusone: or so their publishers said

KultsiKN: Ginny, ‘Le Baiser’ is a beautiful marble.

Paradis401: Yes!

BPRAL22169: I’ve only seen bronze copies.

DenvToday: A friend had a small copy of The Burghers of Calais. It always fascinated me.

BPRAL22169: The individual figures are wonderful

SAcademy: Like Michaelangelo’s work.

KultsiKN: Try this: http://www.sculpturegallery.com/sculpture/the_kiss2.html

AGplusone: Yes, I used to have a copy of that, K …

SAcademy: thanks. I have a picture taken at the atelier.

AGplusone: it was a very popular reproduction in the 60s … couldn’t pass thru a flea sale without stumbling over plaster of paris repros

BPRAL22169: That doesn’t appear to be a very good copy

BPRAL22169: (though perhaps it’s just the scan that is low in detail)

SAcademy: Marbles are far more difficult a medium to work in than bronze.

BPRAL22169: True — you have to get it right when you’re working stone.

AGplusone: It’s funny …. the blurb at the bottom of that prates about “Light and shade were used by Rodin to create”

AGplusone: that Jubal criticizes by saying they miss the point of the story.

AGplusone: art “critics” see the light and shade and sometimes miss the point

DavidWrightSr: Most ‘critics’ miss the point don’t they?

BPRAL22169: To be perfectly fair, art critics of the day were reacting to the academic tradition in French art, which was literary at the expense of the art values.

AGplusone: so they talk about ‘technique’ or form, not substance

DavidWrightSr: Present company excepted 🙂

BPRAL22169: It’s certainly true that 20th century artists put far too much emphasis on technique.

AGplusone: like criticising an author for having all those ‘red-haired’ Super Gals … and missing the points.

BPRAL22169: Music suffered the most from that — stochastic “music” isn’t art at all.

DenvToday: Great music–all great art, for that matter–moves me. It isn’t enough for me to respect it intellectually.

DenvToday: I respect craft on an intellectual level.

Paradis401: Amen, Denv. Nice comment.

KultsiKN: Bill — I make jewelry as a passtime: if you don’t master the technique, it’s no use.

AGplusone: talking about “Ricki” in DS, btw, anyone notice her first name is really Virginia?

BPRAL22169: Sayers again: “She went to bed thinking of another more than of herself, showing that even minor art can have its uses.”

OscagneTX: Gee… do you think that’s a Coincidence?

Paradis401: Yes. Coincidence with Ticky?

AGplusone: sheer coincidence!

Paradis401: 😉

AGplusone: and her real last name is what, “Heinicke”?

BPRAL22169: True, Kultsi — but (a) you’re talking about a craft rather than about an art form per se; and (b) if all you do is technique, you will never get to doing art.

DenvToday: Kult, I agree. You must have the technique first, and the art will follow. Mozard had to learn scales before he could write a symphony.

DenvToday: Mozart

KultsiKN: So rite, Bill, Denv.

OscagneTX: Hrm… While we’re at it… Mrs. H, I really enjoyed reading about you in Tramp Royale.

AGplusone: what does “icke” mean, David, Kultsi?

Paradis401: Kultsi, the new Dali?

KultsiKN: But making jewlry is _not_ craft — only.

BPRAL22169: Didn’t say it was.

SAcademy: Certainly not. Look at Cellini.

Paradis401: Heinicke rhymes with Ticky.

SAcademy: Heinli cke was the name of a couple who lived down the street!

DavidWrightSr: as in Hein(icke). I don’t recognize, but suspect that it is a diminutive, perhaps a made up one. If you replaced it with a normal dimutive Heinicke would become Heinlein

DenvToday: Any name that is close to Heinekin is jake by me.

AGplusone: Really? to both of you.

BPRAL22169: I think he once said that the name was probably “Heimlein” originally — heavenly?

KultsiKN: Really don’t know, Dave — gives me the feeling ‘of the the Heine’, i.e. ‘of the moor’

BPRAL22169: Heimlich – Heinicke.

AGplusone: I sorta thought that …

Paradis401: Ever notice that the name of Johans’s nurse in IWFNE was Ginny?

AGplusone: lick is “like” or “ly”

AGplusone: lich

AGplusone: Winnie

BPRAL22169: But -ich is “like” so Heimlich would be heavenly, or like heaven.

Paradis401: Well, he meant Ginny.

Paradis401: 😀

AGplusone: agree, Denis

SAcademy: 😀

KultsiKN: YM that, Bill?

BPRAL22169: “heaven-ish.”

Paradis401: And her hair was red!

DenvToday: I thought it would mean Homey. Heim means home.

AGplusone: conclusive proof …

BPRAL22169: What does YM mean?

KultsiKN: Heimlich means ‘secret’

SAcademy: YA means young adult.

DavidWrightSr: Heimlich is ‘secretive’

DavidWrightSr: GMTA

BPRAL22169: Makes sense.

KultsiKN: Bill: You Mean.

BPRAL22169: Ah, well– it’s speculative at best.

DenvToday: Geheimnis?

DavidWrightSr: Reminds me of a mistranslation my high school english teacher made. He said that ‘Geheimstaatspolizei’ was ‘Home town police’

BPRAL22169: Cute.

AGplusone: good lord

DavidWrightSr: instead of “Secret State Police”

BPRAL22169: Remind me not to go to Germany with him…

Paradis401: Was Ben in Stranger a pretty boy? Maybe to Jill if not Jubal.

SAcademy: No one knew where the name Heiinlein came from. Robert thought it was a corruption of Heim-lein–little house.

KultsiKN: Is not, Ginny.

BPRAL22169: I don’t recall any remarks about Ben’s physical appearance in Stranger.

DavidWrightSr: Appropriate: ‘Heimlein on the prairie’

AGplusone: or possibly “head of a little household”

AGplusone: ?

BPRAL22169: Kultsi, /ga

Smn Jester has entered the room.

KultsiKN: ‘Die Heine’ means ‘the moor’ as far as I know; Heinlein is a diminutive of that.

AGplusone: Hi, Simon

KultsiKN: Hello, Simon.

Smn Jester: Gack! You mean this is a live chat! I’m not even dressed for the occasion!

BPRAL22169: Too many clothes or something?

SAcademy: Thank you,. Kultsi

KultsiKN: So use bold!

Paradis401: Moor as in N. African? Kultsi?

AGplusone: Hehe … what makes you think anyone is dressed. The Emperor might fit right in here.

DavidWrightSr: Moor as in the Scottish moors.

KultsiKN: Right, David.

Smn Jester: Well, I am dressed in smeggy clothes…

BPRAL22169: Unfortunately, none of my German books are out.

Smn Jester: Wow… A RAH chat group… I like you guys already…

OscagneTX: ‘night everyone.

Paradis401: Night TX

OscagneTX has left the room.

KultsiKN: Simon, be bold!

KultsiKN: and I _do_ mean the font.

AGplusone: easier for Ginny to read it that way

Paradis401: Yeah, you don’t have to be pretty.

KultsiKN: i. e. SAcademy, Ginny that is.

Smn Jester: Bold working now?

KultsiKN: no

AGplusone: although if you can show us how pretty you looked in your mind, anyway, when you were eighteen … you’ll be an artist my friend.

SAcademy: No.

Smn Jester: Trying again…

Smn Jester: There we go!

AGplusone: That seems bold to me

Paradis401: Good show!

KultsiKN: ya got it!

DavidWrightSr: By george he’s got it

SAcademy: Better, thanks.

BPRAL22169: And shows good, too.

Smn Jester: Heh, I CAN be taught!

SAcademy: Where are you located, Simon?

Smn Jester: I’m near Detroit Michigan.

SAcademy: Thank you.

Paradis401: Yo!

SAcademy: I’m in Florida.

AGplusone: [sometimes] Sunny Santa Monica

Smn Jester: I was just down Florida ways in mid October. Interesting flying in that climate…

AGplusone: [we’re getting our two weeks of winter this month]

SAcademy: Sometimes there, or sometimes sunny?

DavidWrightSr: Red clay hills of Georgia

DenvToday: Oddly enough, I’m in Denver. lol

DavidWrightSr: Just for Today?

AGplusone: sometimes there … sometimes Lost in Space like the Admiral’s brother

SAcademy: Surprise.

DenvToday: How did you know?

DenvToday: 🙂

DavidWrightSr: Wild guess

Smn Jester: Would it be rude of me to tell you guys something off subject?

DavidWrightSr: Not at all.

AGplusone: [that was a beautiful tape they sent you, Ginny] Not at all

SAcademy: G/A

DenvToday: If it’s salacious in any way, go ahead.

BPRAL22169: Possibly, but we’re braced for it.

KultsiKN: no, not to _this_ bunch.

Paradis401: Brace yourselves!

Smn Jester: Well, I got notice in the mail a few weeks ago that my first short story is going to be published…

AGplusone: prepare for incoming ….

BPRAL22169: Congratulations!

AGplusone: Yea!

DenvToday: Congrats!!

DavidWrightSr: That’s great. Where, what and when?

SAcademy: Great!

AGplusone: where/when/etc

Paradis401: And he off and running folks. Good news.!

BPRAL22169: You forgot Who and Why.

AGplusone: ‘etc’

Smn Jester: So, if you ever pick up a magazine called Alembic, look for a story by yours truly, called Maximum Blue.

AGplusone: what does alembic mean?

Smn Jester: HeY! I’m typin’ here! *G*

AGplusone: “Simon Jester”?

BPRAL22169: It’s a type of distilling apparatus

BPRAL22169: Alchemical glassware.

Smn Jester: Alembic is the name of the mag. Its sort of a wizards cauldron, if I remember correctly.

AGplusone: ah, a story on making serious booze!!!

BPRAL22169: They still use them for pot brandy

BPRAL22169: Schrammsburg makes a very nice alembic brandy.

Smn Jester: Ah, no… My real name is John McNeilly. I just have the character of Simon…

AGplusone: Great, thanks John

Smn Jester: You know, smartassed genius who likes to harrass authority…

AGplusone: where do we find the magazine?

AGplusone: yeah, that one …

Smn Jester: Find it? Uh… Not sure…

KultsiKN: Not My Newsstand.

SAcademy: I will try to find it.

Smn Jester: Probably hard to find. Not a very big magazine.

KultsiKN: 😀

DenvToday: Is it online?

AGplusone: or have a webpage?

Smn Jester: No, not online, far as I know.

KultsiKN: John, _tell_ them to go online.

Paradis401: I’ve heard of it but not here in the boonies.

AGplusone: published where?

KultsiKN: Denis, your boomies are far too close — compared to mine.

SAcademy: Oh, I got in a trade edition of Beyond This Horizon.

AGplusone: just tried www.alembic.com/ 404

Smn Jester: Heh… I will. Especially when I make my name in the market, they’ll want to have a web site saying they were the first to publish my best-selling, Hugo award winning novels…

Smn Jester: Modesty too…

AGplusone: from whom, Ginny?

DenvToday: lol Really, that’s impressive John. I wish you much success.

Paradis401: Boonies for boondock as in yahoo redneck country… Kultsi.

SAcademy: Baen Books. I’d forgotten it was coming. If I get more copies I will distribute them

BPRAL22169: I made a hotbot search for alembic and got glassware and musical instruments, but no magazine.

BPRAL22169: Tony Weisskopf handed me one at Worldcon.

DenvToday: John, what sort of stories do you write? Fantasy, hard sf? Something inbetween?

SAcademy: Bill for pete’s sake use google.

Paradis401: Is Baen still doing a lot fo RAH Ginny?

Smn Jester: Yeah, they are small. But I wanted to get anything published for future tries at the market. It was my fourth try.

KultsiKN: I know, Denis — was just pointing out that I’m _way_farther off.

BPRAL22169: Old habits die hard.

SAcademy: Baen is doing much of Rober’ts work.

Smn Jester: Well, I think I’m what you would call a hard Sci Fi writer. My stories tend towards the darker end of the spectrum, but not horror.

SAcademy: Many of them paperbacks.

Paradis401: Great!

DavidWrightSr: Great. I need new copies. Most of mine are in tatters.

BPRAL22169: I like most of Baen’s hardbacks, but his format seems to crowded in his paperbacks — not enough margins for my taste.

DenvToday: Sounds very interesting.

BPRAL22169: Well, here’s an Alembic Press, but it’s a fine letterpress publisher in Oxford — probably not your magazines.

Paradis401: Thanks Bill. I didn’t know Baen had hard covers.

SAcademy: Baen must have at least a dozen. I haven’t counted.

JJ Brannon has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: Revolt in 2100, Podkayne, I think, Green Hills I’ve seen in Baen hardbacks.

KultsiKN: Howdy, JJ!

AGplusone: You mentioned the offer to put out a tape version of Farmer in the Sky, Ginny. Are they talking unabridged? Hi, JJ. Missed telling you how we appreciated the blood donation in Philly.

joelrmpls has entered the room.

JJ Brannon: Hi, All!

AGplusone: Yo, Joel.

Smn Jester: My fiance teases me because I have two shelves in my library specifically for RAH books. She just rolls her eyes at me.

KultsiKN: Hi, Joel!

Paradis401: Hi JJ and Joel.

JJ Brannon: Glad to be of service.

joelrmpls: Hi, all. Oops — I’ve got the wrong client; when I log back on, could somebody invite me back? Otherswise, I can’t bold fonts….

DenvToday: http://ri.xu.org/arbalest/alembic2h.html

Paradis401: Congrats Simon. You have a Heinlein library.

joelrmpls has left the room.

SAcademy: Hello Joel.

DenvToday: Something about The Alembic

DenvToday: Hi Joel

SAcademy: Is Felicia coming, too?

JJ Brannon: I’m just glad we were ahead of the curve & in the region for the WTC disaster.

JJ Brannon: What

Smn Jester: Speaking of blood… I gave blood sporadically ’til I read about the Heinleins’ interest in it. Now my goal is to send Virginia my ten gallon certificate one of these days.

JJ Brannon: What’s the topic?

joelrmpls has entered the room.

Paradis401: Somebody invite Joel in. I don’t know how to do that.

KultsiKN: I did.

Paradis401: Pretty boys!

AGplusone: Still talking about “pretty boys” or maybe ‘art’ in Heinlein novels

joelrmpls: Argh… I did it again. Back in a sec.

joelrmpls has left the room.

JJ Brannon: I’m somewhere to the north of 4 gal.

JJ Brannon: Oh! Not done from last night.

joelrmpls has entered the room.

Paradis401: Huh?

SAcademy: Be sure not to hit “esc”–that will throw you offline.

BPRAL22169: That reminds me — it’s nearly 4:00 and we should probably take a break if we’re going to.

joelrmpls: Well, that’s better.

Smn Jester has left the room.

joelrmpls: Still working out a few strangenesses in the new environment.

JJ Brannon: OK

Paradis401: Give the ladies a chance to show up and talk about pretty boys.

SAcademy: I could use something to eat.

Smn Jester has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: That’s right — I just noticed Ginny is the only femme-type here today all day.

Smn Jester: Art? As in cover art?

Smn Jester: Well, that was fun…

SAcademy: BRB

joelrmpls: Me, too — got to leave and make dinner in about half an hour.

Paradis401: Koffee! BRB

BPRAL22169: I think we’ve got a de facto break going on.

DavidWrightSr: Why don’t we all have a short break. Haven’t had one this evening

BPRAL22169: Ten minutes?

JJ Brannon: Sounds fine to me.

joelrmpls: Ok. I’ll just not log off, given the trouble I had logging on . . . .

DavidWrightSr: Don’t log off. In fact, we often just chat even more informally during breaks.

KultsiKN has left the room.

AGplusone: good … back at 10 past the hour … heading off for some libation, preferably one made by alembic distillation …

DenvToday: Pour one for me Dave

KultsiKN has entered the room.

KultsiKN: AOL is something… vile.

AGplusone: 😀

Smn Jester: Someone pour me drink too. I’m far too excited.

Smn Jester: Silly buttons…

AGplusone: in celebration!

Paradis401: Well, I’m glad we have RAH’s pretty girl of all time talking about pretty boys with us dudes.

DavidWrightSr: Yeah. Ain’t that something?

AGplusone: Is anyone on AOL in this room right now?

Smn Jester: Naw, that euphoria wore off a few days after I got the acceptance letter. I’m sure you guys know how some people get really caught up with their favorite authors. Well… I’m feeling really fannish right now…

Paradis401: It’s great. We have to remind her at times.

DenvToday: I’m on AOL.

AGplusone: Pixelmeow is trying to join … send her an invitation

JJ Brannon: I’m on AOL.

AGplusone: she can’t use her dsl right now

BPRAL22169: I’m on AOL — though with DSL I don’t have to be.

Pixelmeow has entered the room.

Pixelmeow: Goodness, I guess that

Pixelmeow: will do it…

AGplusone: welcome Pix! now we have two pretty girls

DenvToday: John, I’m sure this is just the beginning.

Pixelmeow: thanks, david!

Smn Jester: Okay, here is a question… Spider Robinson make Pixel a character in one of his last books. Was/is there a real cat name Pixel?

Pixelmeow: I used to have one…

Paradis401: It worked. My hex! A good hex!

AGplusone: not me …. I asked several in here to send you invitations

Pixelmeow: David SR did.

Paradis401: Pixel was Robert’s last cat. A yellow tabby.

Pixelmeow: Kultsi asked, David just did it. 🙂

DavidWrightSr: I try to keep an eye open for everyone

JJ Brannon: I have a software conflict & need to reboot.

JJ Brannon: Be back in 5-10.

Pixelmeow: okay

AGplusone: Well, speaking of alembic … Ernie and Julio probably didn’t use it for their cheap brandy, but here’s to you, Simon. congratulations!

JJ Brannon has left the room.

Pixelmeow: What’s the good news?

Smn Jester: Ah, the joys of Microsoft… One day, I’m going to stop procarastinating and load Linux…

AGplusone: We’re in a ten minute hiatus right now. Simon just got published, for the first time.

Pixelmeow: Cool!

Pixelmeow: Congrats!

Paradis401: We are tolking about Pixel who was also a pretty boy.

Smn Jester: Minor correction; just a letter telling me the story is going to be in an upcoming edition of the mag.

Dehede011 has entered the room.

Pixelmeow: I’m glad to hear there was a real “Pixel”.

KultsiKN has left the room.

Pixelmeow: Other than mine, of course…

AGplusone: That’s what I tell “Bob” he is … hi, Ron, welcome. Mike! Welcome.

KultsiKN has entered the room.

Pixelmeow: but she was a girl and a siamese.

Paradis401: He was also in CWWTW

Dehede011: But he didn’t walk through walls — darn it.

Dehede011: Hi everyone

Pixelmeow: Hi, there!

KultsiKN: If I knew it’d help, I’d shoot somebody…

DenvToday: Dehede, how do you know he didn’t walk through walls?

Smn Jester: Mine is a common black house cat. But then, what good author DOESN’T have a cat… *S*

Pixelmeow: Pixel “in Cat” did.

Paradis401: Ginny may be able to tell you more about the real Pixel. He was dearly loved.

Dehede011: Cause he would have told me — we used to talk often

DenvToday: Ah…that makes sense. 🙂

Dehede011: 🙂

Paradis401: Did uou talk to the real one Dehede?

Paradis401: Confess!

Dehede011: No, of course not but I would have to be a fence post to not know Ginny loved her cats

AGplusone: [btw: notice how I haven’t said a thing about “On Brave Old Army Team … ” but that was a good recovery of an on-side kick by a kid named White from Virginia Beach, speaking of nothing important …]

Dehede011: Yes, but Army won and that is what counts

AGplusone: Any chance his parents might be retired Navy, Ginny?

Dehede011: But the real question is what happened to Navy?

Dehede011: That is a better team than a 0 — 9 record indicates

Paradis401: Pixel was Robert’s baby first and foremost. Ginny got seconds.

AGplusone: A plebe named White …

DenvToday: I am munching beer nuts in anticipation of the Colorado – Texas game. You have to eat salty snack food during great games. It’s the law.

SAcademy: I soldn’t bring Pixel here with me, and David Gerrold offered to take him. David came to my house and took Pixel down south with him. The first chance Pixel had, he walked out of David’s house and wasn’t seen again.

AGplusone: yes

Dehede011: Darn, that is sad

Paradis401: He went looking for Robert. No kidding!

AGplusone: a shame … maybe he found another home … cats select their homes

DenvToday: I’m so sorry to hear that.

SAcademy: Sorry about the Italics.

AGplusone: mine did … musta liked my daughter or wife

Smn Jester: I like the idea of living in Key West with a bunch of weirdoes…

AGplusone: he and me took a while to warm to each other

pakgwei has entered the room.

BPRAL22169: I believe it is time to reconvene

AGplusone: LTNC, pakgwei … good to have you here.

pakgwei: Topic Tonight?

joelrmpls: Cats are sometimes like that. It took Squish ten years to warm up to Felicia.

Paradis401: Anyhow. Pixel was the ultimate pretty boy in RAH.

Dehede011: I am used to the cats on our farm — more a matter of co-workers

AGplusone: “Pretty Boys in Heinlein” or a discussion of his heroes …

Smn Jester: All cats are pretty boys. Even the girls…

AGplusone: or artistry in creating them.

BPRAL22169: Robert’s revenge for Schroedinger’s Cat, doomed to die when the box is opened.

joelrmpls: Ginny: is this legible?

AGplusone: Looks bold to me, Joel.

BPRAL22169: Or not, as the case may be.

SAcademy: Pixel was a beauty, from the day we first got him,

Paradis401: That’s OK Bill. I think you have something there.

AGplusone: And Pixel’s the real hero in Cat anyway.

Dehede011: How old was he, Ginny, when you first got him?

AGplusone: if he doesn’t bring back the cavalry, Campbell’s thin red line gets soaked up in the dark sand

SAcademy: A few weeks old.

Dehede011: Thank you.

SAcademy: We had him for almost eight years.

AGplusone: Did Robert ever mention why he used Colin Campbell’s name for Richard Ames, Ginny?

Dehede011: Wow, I don’t think we ever hung on to one that long

Pixelmeow: How did you come up with the name Pixel?

Paradis401: Taffy before that was also a golden tabby and he is now in the Heinlein crater on Mars.

joelrmpls: We’ve had Squish for 16; Bubbles almost made it to 17. Most marriages, these days, don’t last that long.

SAcademy: I don’t think he said anything about using Colin’s name for Richard Ames.

Dehede011: Yes, but ours had to live the rough and ready life of a farm cat

AGplusone: famous man … ‘and here was the ‘thin red line’ … ‘

Smn Jester: The name Colin is Scottish and Campbell too. Campbell is a bit notorious though.

SAcademy: Pixel was named because he was quick, bright in color and very fast.

Pixelmeow: 🙂 That makes sense.

Pixelmeow: Thanks!

Paradis401: Like Ginny!

Pixelmeow: 🙂

SAcademy: Why is Campbell notorious?

Dehede011: Pixel should be here tonight. I am making a chinese style seafood stew.

Smn Jester: Cuz the Campbells slaughtered the MacDonalds of Glencoe.

AGplusone: yes … but say that nicely, Simon. Got some of ’em up in my tree … Gibbon

Paradis401: Not to me. John Campbell maybe.

DavidWrightSr: Speaking of cats, I just had to get up and go to the kitchen to feed her. She is 21 years old.

SAcademy: I am not certain that Robert knew that much of scottish history!

Paradis401: I like that David W. Sweet 21.

AGplusone: Ever read John MacDonald Frazer?

Smn Jester: Campbell is like being named Benedict Arnold to a Scot.

AGplusone: only to MacDonalds 😀

Smn Jester: Er… I hope you know what I meant… *S*

DenvToday: Was Petronius Arbiter a real cat?

DenvToday: aka Pete 🙂

joelrmpls: Well, I did have a cat named Petronius Arbiter, after the obvious one. 🙂

SAcademy: Yes, Petronius was another cat. but under a different name.

Paradis401: Wasn’t Pete the inspiration for DIS? Ginny?

AGplusone: was a real character in Quo Vadis, and historically, in Rome under Nero.

Smn Jester: Ah… Door Into Summer. First book I ever read. Shows what an affect ‘firsts’ can have on you… *G*

Dehede011: The cat of RAHs that caught my fancy was Plato in an early short story

SAcademy: Actually that incident at the start of the book happened. Only it was me and I took him from one door to another and finally told R. that he was looking for the door into summer.

Smn Jester has left the room.

AGplusone: The ‘teacher’ or mentor of Nero who cheats Nero’s headsman by calling in his friends, having a banquet and opening his veins among them, leaving a letter telling Nero what he really thought of his ‘art’ …

Smn Jester has entered the room.

Paradis401: Best anecdote ever on RAH – straight from Ginny.

Smn Jester: That was an odd crash…

AGplusone: wb

AGplusone: did you accidentally hit ESC?

Smn Jester: GAnecdote? Umm… Could someone repeat that? I got sucked into cyberspace…

Pixelmeow: That was wonderful!

Paradis401: What was the cat’s name? Who inspired RAH to write Door Into Summer?

SAcademy: It will be in the log of this session.

AGplusone: you just missed an anecdote about Petronius Arbiter from me.

DenvToday: That’s a wonderful bit of lore, one I’ll remember.

Smn Jester: Okay. Where do I find the log?

Pixelmeow: I just read that today!

AGplusone: Dave posts the logs on his site.

Dehede011: DaveAG, I know it is usually a joke, but “I remember the movie.”

DavidWrightSr: I’ll send you the URL when I get it posted. You already gave me your address

Paradis401: Actually it was Ginny’s comment about the cat that provided the inspiration.

SAcademy: David Wright will post it and put a notice on AFH when it’s ready. He corrects our typing mistakes.

AGplusone: yes … movie was fairly close the the Pulizer prize (Nobel?) novel.

Smn Jester: Balshoya spaseeba David.

DavidWrightSr: Pozhalsta

AGplusone: Ustinov was great in the movie

DavidWrightSr: Sometimes correct typos. Unless I am too lazy 🙂

Dehede011: But the Englishman that played Petronius was my hero

KultsiKN has left the room.

DenvToday: Genn. Leo Genn

AGplusone: he did a great job

Dehede011: Yes, wow there is a name from the past

AGplusone: Ustinov played Nero

BPRAL22169: Sienkewicz?

DenvToday: He was also terrific as Starbuck in the Gregory Peck version of Moby Dick.

Smn Jester: Um, which movie?

AGplusone: yes, Bill … “Quo Vadis”

BPRAL22169: Quo Vadis, I think.

Dehede011: Funny, I can remember the seat and the theatre but cannot recall the name of the movie

BPRAL22169: “Whither Thou Goest.”

Paradis401: Hmmmm….

DenvToday: Quo vadis, Domine?

AGplusone: Petronius Arbiter was a real Roman

AGplusone: and a character in the novel

AGplusone: The ‘teacher’ or mentor of Nero who cheats Nero’s headsman by calling in his friends, having a banquet and opening his veins among them, leaving a letter telling Nero what he really thought of his ‘art’ …

Paradis401: I had the candle, you were the wick. Who lost the flame?

Smn Jester: I’ll have to read the book then. Don’t remember the movie.

DenvToday: Very good movie, as Biblical epics go.

Smn Jester: I’m odd in the regard that most times I’ve read the book and not seen the movie. Read ‘Harry Potter’ right now and then on to ‘K-Pax’…

joelrmpls: Not a lot you can do with the characters, the obvious exception aside.

Smn Jester: Reading, that is…

AGplusone: Quo Vadis, by Henryk Sienkiewicz, ISBN 0-7818-0185-0 is a pretty good recent translation

Paradis401: Nice to see that someone uses ISBNs

SAcademy: It’s a classic. It was around when I was in school.

Smn Jester: Someone help me out here. I got to this website through a link in the Heinlein Society web page, but I don’t see the address for THIS site on the page I linked through.

AGplusone: could someone on AOL invite “JJBrannon” back in, please?

JJ Brannon has entered the room.

AGplusone: not an address per se … the link works, but you can make a shortcut if you’re using a PC-type window

DenvToday: http://members.tripod.com/readinggroups/heinlein.htm

SAcademy: Make a shortcut to this place. Announcements will be on AFH

Paradis401: That shortcut works David. I tried it Thursday.

SAcademy: I think the shortcut is under “File” up above.

AGplusone: if it’s a Mac you’re using, let me know and I’ll tell you another way to do it.

DavidWrightSr: Unfortunately, it doesn’t work for MACs and Linux versions, I understand

DavidWrightSr: The shortcut that is..

Pixelmeow: I just saw Harry Potter last weekend, and it struck me that the attractive

Pixelmeow: boys/men in the movie happened to also be the bad guys.

JJ Brannon: I’m back.

Smn Jester: Ah, that shortcut will work nicely.

AGplusone: [but Mac users are tricky and find ‘work-arounds’ even when Steve Case forgets them]

Dehede011: brb

Pixelmeow: More specifically, the good guys looked scary…

AGplusone: I must see that, then, Teresa.

JJ Brannon: I’m no expert on pretty boys.

Smn Jester: A coworker of mine took his son to see the movie. He’s been calling me ‘Hagrid’ all week…

Pixelmeow: and the pretty boy, one of Harry’s classmates, was a hideous person.

BPRAL22169: That’s a standard Nerd trope — the popular jocks are the antagonists.

Paradis401: Sneaky, Pixel. But a neat way to get us back on topic.

Pixelmeow: You look like Hagrid???

Pixelmeow: Who me???

DenvToday: Being physically perfect has been a heavy burden, but I handle it well.

Smn Jester: I’m 6’2″, 300 pounds, long black hair and beard and I love my leather trench coat…

Paradis401: If your wife agrees Joel, you are smiling.

Pixelmeow: I just thought it was strange that this is what we’re talking about…

Pixelmeow: Wow…

AGplusone: I always liked the ‘broken nose’ gaining enough yards to own the California Central Valley secondary rushing record” line

AGplusone: wish it was mine …

Pixelmeow: and I’d just seen a movie where you really couldn’t tell a book by its cover.

Smn Jester: Which movie was that?

Pixelmeow: Still talking about the same one.

Pixelmeow: 🙂

Pixelmeow: I mean, there was one guy, the leader of the Slytherin house,

Pixelmeow: and he’s *always* the bad guy.

Smn Jester: A movie that I think is highly under rated is October Sky. Anyone see that one?

JJ Brannon: Snapes?

DenvToday: Smn, are you a young guy? Are you just starting out as a writer?

Pixelmeow: He was the sheriff in Robin Hood Prince of Thieves.

Pixelmeow: Yep!

AGplusone: is there a convention that survives in writing about physical characteristic of Galahads today.

BPRAL22169: Come to think of it, wasn’t the antagonist in Ghormenghast pretty, too?

Paradis401: Are there any pretty boys for you in RAH, Pixel?

Pixelmeow: He was wonderful!

Smn Jester: Don’t tell me too much about the movie. I’m only a hundred pages of the book! *G*

AGplusone: I’ve seen October Sky

Pixelmeow: I’m trying to hold back. 🙂

Smn Jester: Well, I’m 32. Not spring chicken, but yes, I’m just strating out as a writer.

AGplusone: we had Homer Hickam visit us on AFH briefly

Pixelmeow: Hm, pretty boy for me in RAH is Michael.

Pixelmeow: VMS, that is.

DavidWrightSr: Don’t hold back. Tell us why?

Paradis401: Good Girl!

joelrmpls: Family back; suppertime; gotta go. Later, all….

DenvToday: Yes, I saw October Sky. I loved it. It was full of the innocent love of achievement and science that I love about the RAH juveniles.

joelrmpls has left the room.

Pixelmeow: David, SR, I was trying not to spoil the movie, you perv!

JJ Brannon: About 12 years ago Tom Hanks’ name was being bandied about to play Michael.

AGplusone: someone had a question for him about inspiration by Rocket Ship Galileo, etc.

Pixelmeow: Okay, later!

Smn Jester: I exchanged a few emails with Homer. I apparently asked his wife some interesting questions that she couldn’t answer. I really enjoy interacting with authors I admire.

Pixelmeow: I don’t see Tom Hanks as Michael.

Paradis401: Hanks was a better than the earlier Mick Jagger.

Pixelmeow: Akk!

Pixelmeow: No thanks!

BPRAL22169: Frejack!

Smn Jester: October Sky was/is a big inspiration for me. Follow your dreams and all that.

JJ Brannon: He could muster the other wordly innocence but the Michaelangelo-ness?

AGplusone: Have you read the sequel, Simon?

AGplusone: sorta sequel

Paradis401: I read about that in Playboy years ago. About Mick.

Smn Jester: The Christmas one? Nope, not yet.

pakgwei: maybe that guy from A Knights Tale as Michael

AGplusone: It’s worth it

Pixelmeow: I think Michael should look very much like Michelangelo’s David, personally.

AGplusone: in paper now

Smn Jester: I read Back to the Moon, and really enjoyed that one.

AGplusone: so did I

BPRAL22169: He’s got the touseled blond hair thing going for him, doesn’t he?

Paradis401: That’s why I thought RAH’s comments about Sturgeon reminded me of Stranger.

DenvToday: Yeah, but he’s a bit…um…stunted. Ahem.

BPRAL22169: Can’t remember his name — an Aussie, introduced in The Patriot

AGplusone: Pitt could do him. and Pitt’s a good actor

Dehede011: Guys, I stole this machine while its owner took a break. Now I am a pumpkin again

Pixelmeow: Oh, yeah, that works…

AGplusone: the one who played Gibson’s son?

JJ Brannon: I thought Ted Sturgeon was the template for Larry Smith.

DenvToday: Ledger?

BPRAL22169: Yes.

JJ Brannon: Not the bookseller.

Dehede011: Have a good evening, bye

Paradis401: That’s interesting JJ.

DenvToday: He was also in A Knight’s Tale, though I didn’t see it.

Dehede011 has left the room.

Pixelmeow: I loved Meet Joe Black, and that really made me think of VMS…

AGplusone: Pitt was fantastic in A River Runs Through It … now if Redford agreed to produce it, it’d get done!

DenvToday: Heath Ledger? Is that the name?

JJ Brannon: From the DS and Godbody essay about the imitations.

AGplusone: and actually might bear some resemblance to the book

BPRAL22169: There is still the tiny — really negligible, really — matter of the script.

Paradis401: Pitt in Joe Black is indeed pretty.

JJ Brannon: But aging fast…

DenvToday: Oh yeah, that. No big deal. First we have to settle how curly Mike’s hair should be.

Pixelmeow: I loved him best in Vampire, tho…

JJ Brannon: Of course, with CGI…

AGplusone: all pretty boys age fast. Look at Bill Holden.

Paradis401: Someone mentioned Jude Law on thursday.

BPRAL22169: I don’t think so.

DenvToday: Something to think about: Marlon Brando used to be a pretty boy. ’nuff said.

AGplusone: Ernie Bourgnine to Holden: “Time to go … ”

SAcademy: Marlon Brando???

DenvToday: Yes, in the late 40’s and early 50’s. Seems inconceivable now, I know.

pakgwei: hell, i used to be a pretty boy

pakgwei: 🙂

SAcademy: He’s so dissipated looking.

Paradis401: 😀

Smn Jester: Go to jail. You’ll be a ‘pretty boy’ once more…

BPRAL22169: Time and dissiplation will do that.

AGplusone: so did I … my mother saved my freshman year football picture … she loved it …

Pixelmeow: OT for a sec…

Pixelmeow: who here is not from afh?

BPRAL22169: Who would notice?

DenvToday: I was never pretty. The good news is that I haven’t gotten uglier as I age. lol


pakgwei: i used to be from AFH… does that count?

Pixelmeow: maybe, how were you known there?

Paradis401: 😎

pakgwei: a couple names

Pixelmeow: I just like to know who I’m talking to…

Pixelmeow: 🙂

BPRAL22169: I just looked over the present list, and it occurs to me that David and I are the only original AOL members left.

pakgwei: last one was ‘stranger’ i think

AGplusone: JJ Brannon goes back that far Bill

Paradis401: Pakgwie can you bold?

BPRAL22169: I don’t recall that handle.

Paradis401: And send me a prescription for my hands. All butter here.

AGplusone: Zim remembers everything … 😎

Pixelmeow: I know the Davids, and Bill, and Ginny, and Simon, but that’s all I can tell from these names…

pakgwei: Im the one who got yelled at for starting to offer downloads of the RAH radio shows from the 50s

SAcademy: Good for you, David1

Pixelmeow: Oh my…

Paradis401: Very interesting…….

Pixelmeow: I remember talking about a radio show that really sounded like RAH…

AGplusone: Actually, the d/ls (some of them) are offered by a website that owns rights to them, now.

AGplusone: Problem is: you have to listen to them while on-line

SAcademy: Those radio shows were put on tapes, and it has been uncontrollable ever since.

Smn Jester: *ears perking up* Downloads?

pakgwei: well the whole argument last time i checked was that alot of people claimed ownership but no one would prove it

Paradis401: Pixel, I’m Denis with one n.

Smn Jester: I heard the old radio show I heard one time, about Rhysling, right?

Pixelmeow: Oh okay!!!!

DavidWrightSr: Point us to it, and we’ll check it out.

AGplusone: I’ve never heard that one.

pakgwei: The Green Hills of Earth?

AGplusone: would like to

pakgwei: yeah, I have that one

AGplusone: There’s a site that sells tapes

AGplusone: lemme dig for it … brb

Smn Jester: Yeah! That one. Wouldn’t mind hearing it again. Know what the site is?

SAcademy: Yes, Without any permissions, too, I might add.

Pixelmeow: So, back to pretty boys…

Pixelmeow: 🙂

Paradis401: O:-)

BPRAL22169: We should probably put in a plug for the Atlanta Radio Theatre group — they have just released a (permissioned) adaptation of “The Man who Traveled in Elephants.”


Smn Jester: So, Pixel, like guys with beards? **waggling eyebrows**

Pixelmeow: Stoppit!!!

Paradis401: Thanks Bill.

Pixelmeow: 🙂

DenvToday: lol Simon

pakgwei: is wagling legal in public?

Pixelmeow: I do like goatees…

Smn Jester: I’m interested in any and all RAH paraphinalia.

BPRAL22169: I never got used to goatees — van Dykes are ok.

Smn Jester: Well, I normally go with the goatee, but am growing my beard out for winter.

Pixelmeow: some people look great in beards. Van Dyke is wonderful on Val Kilmer…

AGplusone: nice job as Doc Holliday

Paradis401: Get yourself a cannon, Simon.

Pixelmeow: Yep!

BPRAL22169: That was the role I immediately thought of.

Pixelmeow: Loved that accent!

Pixelmeow: You caught me, Bill, that was exactly what I meant.

BPRAL22169: Oh, I see. The goatee is a tuft of hair growing down from the chin, with nothing else.

AGplusone: Altho I thought the whatzisname brother who did Holliday in Kevin Costner’s version was equally good

Pixelmeow: Mustache that goes down around the bottom of the chin.

Smn Jester: You may have meant that in jest, but I am interested in finding a little brass cannon.

BPRAL22169: That’s a Van Dyke.

AGplusone: and Ingrid’s daughter doing Kate Elder was fantastic!

DenvToday: Dennis Quaid

BPRAL22169: Named afte rthe Dutch painter.

AGplusone: Right, Quaid

DavidWrightSr: Not Dick Van Dyke? 🙂

Paradis401: Are we getting Harry here? No I consider a cannon a Heinlein tradition.

Pixelmeow: I thought a van dyke was that thingy Val wore… mustache with thingy below bottom lip, nothing on chin…

DenvToday: I think that’s a soul patch

Pixelmeow: I really like him, too…

Pixelmeow: DVD, that is…

BPRAL22169: Can’t recall the name of that style.

BPRAL22169: Very popular in the civil War

BPRAL22169: (American Civil War, I mean)

Pixelmeow: The thingy where you shave from the ears down to either side of the mouth *only* is what I thought was a goatee.

AGplusone: remember the cavalry officer in Rio Grande, the one with the beard … I think that was a van Dyke … french version.

DavidWrightSr: War Between the States

Smn Jester: I’ve shaved my goatee down to a narrow strip on chin a few times. It changes quickly though as people say I look like a Klingon with it that way.

Pixelmeow: So you are left with mustache, chin, and thingy under the lip, all connected at sides of mouth.

Pixelmeow: ROFL!!!

Pixelmeow: Especially if you look like Hagrid!!!

Paradis401: See Ginny for the original Heinlein cannon. Oh, a young Dennis Quaid would make an RAH pretty boy.

Pixelmeow: (he was my favorite in the movie, btw)

DenvToday: Simon, perhaps it’s the brow ridges.

Pixelmeow: Um, not for me…

Pixelmeow: I don’t think Quaid is pretty at all.

Smn Jester: Or the fact that I carry a bat’leth sometimes… *G*

Pixelmeow: Simon has brow ridges???

pakgwei: other than VMS, what were the pretty boys?

DenvToday: lol

Paradis401: That’s why you’re here. Tell us where we err.

AGplusone: The Quaid brother who is pretty was the younger one who played the youngest Younger … in whatever that movie was … about the Youngers and James’s

Smn Jester: *hanging head* Yes, I do have brow ridges. But they are in the BACK of my head…

Paradis401: Galahad.

BPRAL22169: I think Dennis Quaid would qualify for ugly-handsome

DenvToday: Randy Quaid is the goofy-looking brother.

Pixelmeow: I can see that, it just isn’t my idea of ugly-good.

Pixelmeow: That’s okay, Simon.

DenvToday: Well, I must be off. Thanks to you all for a great discussion, as always.

DenvToday: Night all!

Pixelmeow: Okay!

AGplusone: night Ron

Paradis401: Bye Denv

DenvToday: Bye 🙂

Pixelmeow: I think of Galahad as the really really pretty one, no rough edges at all.

DenvToday has left the room.

Pixelmeow: Like a model.

JJ Brannon: But short.

AGplusone: we have pushed on for the full three hours, remarkable!

Paradis401: Yay!

BPRAL22169: The influx of new people in the last hour helped quite a lot.

Pixelmeow: Johnny Depp! That’s who!

Paradis401: Like that one eh?

Pixelmeow: Maybe him if he were blond…

JJ Brannon: Galahad, I mean.

Pixelmeow: Oh, yes!

AGplusone: Next topic is going to be P-C relationships … (parent-child) with co-host Alan Milner (Sage Merlin@ aol.com)

Pixelmeow: Are we done talking about pretty men???

AGplusone: His lead off should be out on AFH by Monday (maybe)

AGplusone: I don’t mind if you talk about me after I leave, Pix

BPRAL22169: Funny — Larry Smythe didn’t come up as much as I thougth he would.

Paradis401: Alan’s topic should be lots of fun.

Pixelmeow: Oh you are too much. You and David SR…

Pixelmeow: Both of you just full of yourselves!

DavidWrightSr: Moi?

AGplusone: we’re toddily evil

BPRAL22169: Oh, is that what he’s full of?

BPRAL22169: I wondered.

Pixelmeow: 🙂

AGplusone: anyone have trouble finding AFH?

Paradis401: Sage and Son right? For next topic.

Smn Jester: I wouldn’t mind finding out where to get some prints of RAH. The only thing I have is a print of the cover for The Man Who Sold the Moon.

AGplusone: right!

BPRAL22169: I always thought Larry Smith was patterned after Lawrence Olivier.

BPRAL22169: Or maybe him mixed with Alex Guinness

Pixelmeow: Well, COPS is on, time to run…

BPRAL22169: I’d certainly run…

Pixelmeow: time for my tv fix for the week…

Pixelmeow: 🙂

Paradis401: Now Olivier was pretty. To Olivier.

Smn Jester: Never mix anything with Guiness unless you want to get really drunk… *S*

AGplusone: I felt that, although I wondered whether the source for some of the comments might have been someone found in the cast of Destination Moon

Paradis401: Bye Pixel.

Pixelmeow: Champagne is good with Guinness…

pakgwei: pretty boys on COPS pixel? 🙂

AGplusone: John Archer was a handsome man

Pixelmeow: You guys!!!

AGplusone: and his daughter, yum…..

BPRAL22169: Have fun, y’all.

BPRAL22169: I’m outta here.

AGplusone: we shall ….

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

Pixelmeow: You too, bye!!!

SAcademy: Nite, all.

Paradis401: Bye Bill

Pixelmeow: Later all!

Pixelmeow has left the room.

SAcademy has left the room.

JJ Brannon: Night.

AGplusone: Got log, Dave?

DavidWrightSr: Got it except for the part I missed. and I gather someone is sending me that part.

AGplusone: Kultsi …

Paradis401: I will email mine to both Davids as an html, right?

DavidWrightSr: Great. will have it out tomorrow evening late.

AGplusone: I don’t have it either … I can send you what little I had before you arrived.

AGplusone: text is good too, Denis

DavidWrightSr: HTML is find. I convert it to txt.

DavidWrightSr: But I save the original HTML logs

Paradis401: OK will do.

JJ Brannon has left the room.

AGplusone: Denis, btw, I need your phone number

AGplusone: could you e mail it to me, please.

AGplusone: knew I was going to be late and couldn’t call either you or Dave

Smn Jester: Well, I said I would sit and watch hockey with my fiance, so I’m out of here. It was fun.

AGplusone: Thanks for coming, John\

Paradis401: I’ll include it with my email. In Jan Ill send the Louisville info.

AGplusone: Okay, Denis, thanks

DavidWrightSr: Enjoyed having you here. Y’all come back.

AGplusone: g’nite from New York, David

DavidWrightSr: Nite Chet

AGplusone: And ‘good night for NBC’

Smn Jester has left the room.

AGplusone has left the room.

pakgwei has left the room.

DavidWrightSr: Log Officially closed at 8:07 P.M. EST.
Final End Of Discussion Log

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