Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group
Saturday 11-16-03 5:00 P.M. EST
Space Cadet.. Not exactly a ‘Space Cadet’
You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”
GMC19924 has entered the room.
AGplusone has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, Dave, vas ist los?
AGplusone: is John?
GMC19924: good day
GMC19924: nope new face..call me George if u care to
AGplusone: Hi, how are you? I’m David too.
GMC19924: yes..a plethora of davids around here
AGplusone: George is good. Used to know someone named Gerald M. Cole had those initials.
AGplusone: of course there’s always Jimmie’s or GMC trucks. 🙂
GMC19924: I prefer believe I was named for George M. Cohan 🙂
AGplusone: We’re early a bit. Cohan was a bit before my time. I remember Jimmie Cagney, however.
GMC19924: heh..before my time too..wayyyy
AGplusone: Not sure Cohen was before my parents’ time too.
GMC19924: but the tunes (at least some) are immortal..ok i admit it..i AM a greyhair
Major oz has entered the room.
AGplusone: Hi, Oz, how you been?
GMC19924: are the australians here? gimme a beer
Major oz: Thanx for the invite, David; but I am just about to quit and pick up my lady for dinner and dance.
AGplusone: Aw, heck. thought I had you trapped.
AGplusone: Been missing you.
Major oz: Actually, I am pickin and singin at the dance.
Major oz: But we will do some squares, also.
AGplusone: Yeah, I remember. When did they move it to Saturday?
Major oz: yeah, thursday is my major jam night, and I am home today only becaude deer season opened this morning.
AGplusone: How’s the cabin you were building going?
Major oz: becau”s”e
AGplusone: “house” . . .
Major oz: The contractor wimped out — so I am doing it myself.
GMC19924: fingers still cold from the woods major? 😉
AGplusone: Don’t knock yourself out … slowly is good.
Major oz: Coldest day of the year so far
AGplusone: Missouri was what last night?
GMC19924: same here…im in upstate NY..u anywhere close?
Major oz: Sounded as if the PIRA’s had invaded Beruit this morning.
Major oz: 23 F
Major oz: gotta go, Joyce and Chinese food awaits
aggirlj: No snow, sun shining, cold though.
Major oz: Glad to see youall again.
AGplusone: Okay, Oz. Stop by next time if you can.
Major oz: hokay Major oz has left the room.
KultsiKN has entered the room.
aggirlj: Hi Kultsi.
AGplusone: Hi, Kultsi
KultsiKN: Hello all
KultsiKN: Ehh… what’s the topic tonight?
AGplusone: Space Cadet, or “Not exactly a Space Cadet”
AGplusone: Dave Wright posted the log for Thursday, recently, today.
AGplusone: We had a small question pending in the novel that we didn’t answer, completely. What was the real purpose of the Rivera story in the novel.
AGplusone: Anyone have any real guesses about why Heinlein put that example in the story … Rivera was the one who ordered his home town bombed (when he went down to negotiate with his own countrymen) if he didn’t return.
GMC19924: to illustrate the highest achievement of devotion to duty and honor the patrol needed toemulate?
AGplusone: Maybe . . . other guesses?
AGplusone: Think about the plot purpose of having Matt Dodson go home and getting into the argument with his dad about how “our patrol” would never bomb Des Moines.
GMC19924: exactly as I say..the patrol belonged to nobody..only it’s dugy
AGplusone: And then about Lt. Wong telling Matt, “we would never ask you to do it. Your commander would probably lock you in your room if it came to that . . . ”
KultsiKN: Another explanation may come to mind, a much darker one: if Rivera died, he was willing to take his loved ones with him.
AGplusone: Yes, in a way, K
GMC19924: there’s more K? by itself i dont see the point
AGplusone: Ginny Heinlein was planning on being here, today. She wanted to tell us all a story she told me about four weeks ago.
AGplusone: I just read a letter from her saying she’s had too many wild, late nights, lately, to show up, and she asked me to tell you what she said to me.
AGplusone: The whole business about Burke and the Venerians wasn’t the original planned end of the book.
AGplusone: Heinlein actually laid out the plot to end with Matt bombing Des Moines.
GMC19924: dang..would have been a job fitting that into the plot..
aggirlj: To illustrate that you never say never?
AGplusone: She said while he was writing it, he agonized over making that the ending of a juvenile. “Laid on the couch and literally agonized . . . ” imagine that.
AGplusone: Finally he decided not to do it, and went with the bring back the Killroy option.
AGplusone: I say: thank God! He never would have been let write a third juvenile for Scribners had he done so.
GMC19924: no kidding
AGplusone: In 1949.
aggirlj: Everyone was ducing and covering back then.
GMC19924: no..that was a little early for that agg
AGplusone: Can you imagine even trying to do that today? And selling it to a publisher.
aggirlj: Right. A bit darker than needs be.
GMC19924: in these politically correct times? heck..you’d never even get SST published
KultsiKN: To my earlier point: a very selfish streak in humans: if I go, the ones I love and care must go with me.
AGplusone: I think you can see remnants of that plot, George.
GMC19924: K…can’t buy that..that’s exactly one of the types the patrol was set up to winnow out
AGplusone: Other argument side is: did Aransa really think that so?
AGplusone: He winnowed himself out so he wouldn’t ever be tempted to do that.
AGplusone: Remember Jack the Ripper from Doctor Strangelove?
KultsiKN: I just pointed it out as one possibility, but the human nature is like that ib RL: not rational sometimes, and not rational in every aspect.
aggirlj: Which one was Jack the Ripper, I know this film pretty well.
GMC19924: do i remember? of my 10 favorite movies 6 are kubricks hehe
AGplusone: Arensa, or Aransa, was the cadet who quit because he concluded he couldn’t ever imagine it.
AGplusone: There is an argument that the Samuri type is nothing more or less than a zealot capable of anything, including “just following orders.”
AGplusone: Inhuman, etc.
aggirlj: But wasn’t he more lighthearted than most, not as serious.
AGplusone: And Heinlein was using Well’s Samuri type as a model here.
AGplusone: And the professor types, e.g., Himmler, are capable of killing their wives and children first.
aggirlj: To protect them!
AGplusone: It’s an interesting ethical question: what exactly would we raise if we tried to raise “guardians”?
GMC19924: the samuri type is bound by duty and honor..and his honor is his duty
aggirlj: Don’t want any.
AGplusone: Yes, but . . .
AGplusone: if they become so detached what are they likely to do when they face failure.
GMC19924: that would of course depend on what vision of honor they were trained to
aggirlj: And what is the honr lesson?
AGplusone: While, I’m trying just a little session in “Doubt” as they called it in the novel.
GMC19924: this world, as it is now, CANNOT raise ‘guardians’ its too wise and jaded…the ends often justfy the means..you can’t raise guardians from soil like this
AGplusone: Well, …
aggirlj: And who teaches it?
KultsiKN: Is the soil tainted everywhere, Jane?
GMC19924: hm..good question…hollywood?
AGplusone: or who watches them, as the Latin goes
aggirlj: K . . . no, hopefully not.
AGplusone: Heinlein wrote very interesting thought experiments and called them “juvenile” novels.
KultsiKN: Isn’t a really good juvenile one that grows with the reader?
Dehede011 has entered the room.
aggirlj: Yes, and as I’m reading them the first time as an adult, I see the growth.
AGplusone: Does anyone think when RAH got back to his Circle of Orobourus, he was about to take a third shot at the subject, if he lasted that long.
AGplusone: Hi, Ron, Welcome.
Dehede011: Is this a private meeting or can anyone get involved??
aggirlj: Come join us.
AGplusone: Wanna log. There’s a little Ginny disclosure about the writing of Space Cadet. Reading group meeting. Your in the right place.
Dehede011: Thank you
KultsiKN: Hi, Ron; please join.
Dehede011: I missed something on Space Cadet by Ginny??
Dehede011: I liked your question better though, Dave
Dehede011: I think he would have taken another shot at the Ourobourus circle
AGplusone: Oh, for sure, but we were wondering if he was going to take another shot at the ethics of the “guardians” of society, which is what that Circle, in his last books, Jane, was set up to do.
Dehede011: I don’t know the answer to that one.
AGplusone: thursday, it was argued that Starship Troopers was a second try at producing guardians of society
AGplusone: I’m just wondering if the whole Circle was just another try . . . planned.
GMC19924: hmm..i’ll differ with that…that society didn’t need external guardians..it’s social setup provided that function
Dehede011: He had played with that theme a number of times hadn’t he??
Dehede011: All the way back to Mount Shasta
AGplusone: Don’t know that Heinlein wouldn’t have differed too. But he was setting it up, I think, for another thought experiment.
AGplusone: Mount Shasta was another, in the short story …
KultsiKN: Weren’t all his books thought experiments?
aggirlj: Yah, I think so! Mind working is great when reading.
Dehede011: She but with a strong component of asking us to consider the questions
AGplusone: yes, but I refer to the whole notion of leaders or protectors of society or civilization …
AGplusone: Anyway, have you read that log, yet, Ron.
Dehede011: Yes, makes for an interesting thought
KultsiKN: A philosopher; yesterday I had a chance of listening to a RL philosopher, and he did not proviede any answers. either, just food for thought.
Dehede011: I would have wondered what happened to that nice author of RG
GMC19924: Bea Arthur : what do you do for a living? Mel Brooks: I’m a stand up philosopher
aggirlj: Please forgive my ignorance but, Heinlein was not suggesting that we needed guardians, please me no.
aggirlj: tell me no.
AGplusone: Yeah, like, “Has he gone mad!” He was still just out of the save the world mode, as he described it, post bomb, in the late 1940s.
Dehede011: But as a career Naval Officer pray tell me what he was.
GMC19924: (history of the world, part 2)
AGplusone: by Mel Brooks?
GMC19924: that’s it though Dehede..he wasn’t a career officer..he had to leave service before disillusionment
Dehede011: For something like 7 years he was a career officer either in fact or in training
GMC19924: one wonders how it would have affected his writing..if he wrote at all..had he been in long enough to see the politics, nepotism etc
aggirlj: That shouldn’t take very long.
AGplusone: Do you think it was the politicians, post WWII, their failure to accept the Baruch plan, etc., disillusioned him that much?
GMC19924: for a man of his obvious perception you’re probabally right agg
Dehede011: I was a Naval Aviation Cadet for less than 18 months and you can believe they
Dehede011: had us indoctrinated long before that
AGplusone: Back to a chicken in every pot, and looking for reds under the bed?
Dehede011: No, I suspect he always took a very laize faire attitude toward the conduct of the civilians
GMC19924: I’ll tell ya AG…from a perspective of 50 years later I’m wondering if McCarthy and his ilk didn’t have something there 😛
aggirlj: Whoa, hold on.
AGplusone: Pretty ineffective reds, I’d think.
Dehede011: They did — two things in fact
AGplusone: Hiding tapes in pumpkins.
DavidWrightSr: Hi folks. Sorry I’m Late
aggirlj: Hi David.
AGplusone: Evenin’ Dave.
KultsiKN: Hi, Dave Sr!
Dehede011: AGG, was obedience to civilian authority as much a part of your indoctrination as in ours?
DavidWrightSr: Just been catching up on the discussion so far. Interesting
AGplusone: Yes, shame Ginny couldn’t come to tell us herself.
AGplusone: Did it surprise you he originally had the plot laid out so Matt does a destroy my home finale?
Dehede011: I think in RAHs time a Naval Officer didn’t even vote
AGplusone: Ginny says she cast absentee ballots during WWII.
Dehede011: But it doesn’t surprise me that he rejected it either.
AGplusone: But that may not have been available only a few years earlier.
aggirlj: I would be very interested in his process and how he came to The decision.
Dehede011: Right and I am not sure at all. But I do know we were under tremendous indoctrination that voting
Dehede011: was our first, last and only political activity.
AGplusone: Well, we were in the service, under UCMJ
AGplusone: didn’t need the Hatch Act to stop us
Dehede011: I was fairly close friends with Edward Nixon in flight school — in 18 months not one comment was ever made
Dehede011: neither about politics nor about who his brother was
AGplusone: Nixon was what? Congressman or VP then?
GMC19924: i thought profanity was frowned upon here? 😉
aggirlj: I wouldn’t tell either.
Dehede011: I would as likely volunteered comments about the virtue of another man’s wife as mentioned politics
KultsiKN: That would be common courtesy over here.
AGplusone: Also self-defense . . .
AGplusone: leave sleeping dogs lie
AGplusone: I’m sure when Jimmie Roosevelt was a Marine officer, damned little poltical discussion pertaining to his old man took place when he was around, or even, in his unit.
Dehede011: My opinion of Nixon was based largely on what I thought of Edward
Dehede011: Right, it just wasn’t done.
AGplusone: Unless Jimmie initiated it.
GMC19924: a nonpolitical military is the main reason we have what appears to be the same government for over 200 years..Defend the Constitution and Follow Legal Orders (something ollie north forgot) is what we need
AGplusone: OTOH, a lot of us wanted to “turn Light Bulb Johnson out in ’64” and made little secret of that sentiment.
AGplusone: We just were careful not to order the privates out to vote that way.
Dehede011: different war and a different era, Dave
GMC19924: Goldwater was a better choice? heheh..devil and the deep blue sea?
aggirlj: He almost got my vote . . . (I’m ducking 😛 )
GMC19924: i’ll never forgive nixon his ‘secret plan to end the vietnam war’ (surrender)
Dehede011: I am still thinking about bombing Des Moines
AGplusone: I remember a General officer in Germany named Walker who ran a T.I. program based on John Birch Society propaganda. They releaved and retired him
aggirlj: Somebody was thinking.
Dehede011: My Aunt went to some Wac school there in WW2
Dehede011: Sorry, WAAC
AGplusone: yes, don’t forget the ‘auxillaries’
aggirlj: Dehede where are you geographically?
Dehede011: just north of Chicago
aggirlj: Okay, never mind. Was going to describe Iowa.
Dehede011: I’ve been there
AGplusone: It’s pushing one hour. I propose a five minute break. Jane, you have the conn.
AGplusone: brb in 5
aggirlj: Ohhhhhhhhhhhh no!
GMC19924: ? that’s in the lake isn’t it Dhe? hehe
AGplusone: free chat
aggirlj: Jokes anyone?
Dehede011: Chicago. Naw, just west of it.
KultsiKN: Jane, by your comment earlier, I place you fairly close to Dave in age; that so?
aggirlj: 20 months between.
Dehede011: What part of Iowa agg?
aggirlj: Just in general Dehede
Dehede011: Gee, agg you couldn’t be that old?
aggirlj: Ohhhhhhhh lovely!
KultsiKN: No, she’s just 17 😉
GMC19924: you DO have a way with the ladies dhe
Dehede011: ok, I lived in Waterloo for a couple of consulting jobs
aggirlj: I’ve driven through as quick as possible.
Dehede011: I think I could learn to like the western side of Iowa
aggirlj: I grew up in Hollywood with David in the 50’s through 60’s. Fun, fun.
Dehede011: Then we must all be about the same age with me in front
GMC19924: im just a kid..i wasn’t even BORN till ’52
Dehede011: I am Korean era to Dave Vietnam
AGplusone: we call that “out on point” Ron.
KultsiKN: Talking about Hollywood: we just bought LOTR — the director’s cut DVD today…
aggirlj: Yep, we had a cousin in Korea.
Dehede011: Yes, that sounds like the duty I always got
aggirlj: Can’t wait huh Kultsi?
AGplusone: And an uncle, our youngest, was in the Air Farce.
Dehede011: The novel I am doing background on is about a kid that goes into the Army for a career
GMC19924: they did a pretty decent job on the LOTR movie, all things considered
KultsiKN: Saw the first part – 2.5 hours – about the making of the film already.
aggirlj: Lord of the Rings.
KultsiKN: The second part is 3.5 hours
Dehede011: Okay, my son is axiously awaiting that I think
GMC19924: although as J. Michael S. showed us..it takes over 100 hours of film do do one good, fat book justice
aggirlj: Hot chocalate, popcorn.
KultsiKN: It’s very good
AGplusone: Yes. Every time someone says, I wish they’d do Stranger in a Strange Land, I think, Part V?
Dehede011: Right, Dave
aggirlj: Oh remind me, Part V…..
KultsiKN: They also have the MTV version of the Council of Elrond as a special titbit
GMC19924: heh..i wish i was in a position to bankroll J. Michael to do MIAHM or SIASL B5 style
AGplusone: There may be some movement in that direction, George. A little bird tells me someone’s trying to purchase an option to Moon, again.
GMC19924: not after SST..please .let me be dead before it happens
AGplusone: Have to be a very reputable bunch for the Estate to even consider it.
GMC19924: have them hire JMS
AGplusone: No more Verhoxers.
GMC19924: please god…let them get JMS to do it
AGplusone: Maybe, as they say, the third time will be the charm.
KultsiKN: Unfortunately — who’s buing and who’s doing are two different things, right?
AGplusone: Often …
Dehede011: I just saw a call for papers on the longevity meme
GMC19924: the producers just produce..money…the director and screenwriters are the critical components
Dehede011: speaking of Heinlein themes
aggirlj: The editor is so important.
GMC19924: hopefully, the director controls the editior..but you’re right AGG
Dehede011: Yeah, but that producer for SST must have known and been in on it
aggirlj: Did anyone read the book?
GMC19924: which book agg?
AGplusone: Interesting program on High Noon, I watched recently. Big fight over who was responsible for its success, the director or the editor.
GMC19924: lol….only a couple dozen times the last 40 years
aggirlj: Not here.
GMC19924: or do u mean on their staff
Dehede011: I wonder if I have read each of RAH’s books 3 or 4 times.
KultsiKN: And they were never listened to.
GMC19924: most hollywood types would be supremely offended by the ‘eliteism’ and ‘fascism’ in the book and would HAVE to change it
aggirlj: Wait a minute, weren’t they being perecuted for just that.
AGplusone: John Ford wouldn’t have been.
Dehede011: Mussolini was a communist
DavidWrightSr: No bragging, but The least number of times I have read any RAH book is 4 or 5. Most, especially the juveniles, a minimum of 20-30 times over the last 50 years.
aggirlj: They meaning Hollywood types.
GMC19924: not following agg
Dehede011: Right, David. I think that is fairly typical for this group — or am I wrong??
aggirlj: Okay, the elitism and fascism or I’m reading your wrong.
aggirlj: you wrong.
Dehede011: Many don’t know the political beliefs of Hitler and Mussolini, AGG
GMC19924: the hollywood types persecuted for eliteism and fascism? im lost…
aggirlj: McCarthy way back when and we still have some of those people who were persecuted in high places. Am I making sense?
GMC19924: aha…and from the drivel our mass media is feeding the public maybe old ‘tail gunner’ had a point
GMC19924: revenge? after all these years, on ideas? you think?
AGplusone: Funny, isn’t it? The flavor today. In the 50s, under McCarthy’s pressure, an editor who was blacklisted is said to have cut High Noon, which is nothing but the elite guardian theme, restated . . .
Dehede011: No, tail gunner was a total careerist and opportunist
AGplusone: Or is High Noon communistic and I didn’t notice it, neither did Gary Cooper.
Dehede011: I have read that Ike gave tail gunner the worse cussing out the listener had ever heard
GMC19924: of course he was dhede..but even such a type can base the program (pogram?) on a kernal of fact
Dehede011: Oh, there were really communists around but that was only tail gunners excuse
GMC19924: yep no argument there
Dehede011: That was my joke awhile ago.
AGplusone: There’s a Heinlein juvenile coming up, next after Red Planet, which I think contains Heinlein’s comments on where McCarthy was going — Between Planets with the IBI ruling everyone.
Dehede011: Ike finally had enough of the guy and put a “contract” on him.
AGplusone: “bookleggers” . . . hmph!
Dehede011: My favorite poet Walt Kelly lampooned Tailgunner to heck and gone
GMC19924: heh..the ibi is gaining momentum today…comments on the governments plans to database every and any email and financial transaction and datamine it?
AGplusone: Should read Bill Mauldin’s Back Home, Ron.
Dehede011: Kelly was left of the West Coast and Tailgunner never touched him
GMC19924: in the name of ‘counterterrorism’ of course
aggirlj: Let’s all contribute to the ACLU
GMC19924: erg….how about we start a sane aclu?
GMC19924: and contribute to that?
AGplusone: Naw, the rest of AFH would faint.
Dehede011: Thanks Dave. I always read Mauldin
AGplusone: He’s dying, btw.
Dehede011: I thought he had.
KultsiKN: Aren’t we all?
aggirlj: LOL 🙂
Dehede011: In fact I don’t think tailgunner ever touched many that stood up and gave him the finger
AGplusone: Not unless it was in the last month. There was a US News report that old timers are visiting him to tell him how much they admired his Up Front cartoons, when they were “up front.”
aggirlj: Uncle Eddie had a collection, where it is I don’t know.
Dehede011: Okay, he was in the Chicago area newspapers. I probably am confused over his retirement
AGplusone: I think he’s in a home in Arizona or New Mexico, now.
Dehede011: With his cartoons — sometimes I didn’t know which I would do first, laugh or cry.
AGplusone: “Yesterday you saved my life, Joe — here’s my last pair of dry socks.”
aggirlj: How did you all like the matriarchy aspect of the Venusians(?)/Venarians?
Dehede011: How was it, the spirited victorous allied troops and the downtrodden defeated enemy….???
AGplusone: I watched the DVD of Band of Brothers last night, all of it.
aggirlj: Okay, I’ll back off.
GMC19924: agg…that always struck me as a null factor..even as a kid…SOMEBODY has to be in charge….heh
AGplusone: Yeah, that one too. The guards sleepwalking.
aggirlj: GMC, no, thought it was interesting but then I’m a goil?
Dehede011: No, agg. My tribe was a matriarchy. I want to try patriarchy for a while.
aggirlj: Dehede . . there must be a story there.
Dehede011: Are you aware that the Iroquois and the Cherokee were both matriarchal and both very military
GMC19924: well…i dunno..somehow that kind of sex supremacy bypassed me …i must have missed the ‘secret mens classes’ as a child…lol
aggirlj: Not exactly.
aggirlj: Well my point is they were non-sexed.
aggirlj: Of course there were amphibs.
Dehede011: Yes, that is the one thing that has came down from the indians in my family
GMC19924: (theres a pun there, somewhere, he thinks darkly)
aggirlj: Hi Elizabeth!
TreetopAngelRN2 has entered the room.
Dehede011: as she changes subjects.
KultsiKN: Hi, Elizabeth!
AGplusone: How goes it, E?
aggirlj: You bet.
Dehede011: Hi Elizabeth
TreetopAngelRN2: Good Morning, everyone!
aggirlj: So tell ’em.
KultsiKN: (That’s me) Morn, E!
TreetopAngelRN2: Just waking up! Long night at work last night and the one ahead.
GMC19924: it’s always morning, somewhere…good evening
TreetopAngelRN2: In my case it’s actually 4:30 PM
GMC19924: where the heck is two hours east of me? iceland?
Dehede011: Can you see any mountains from there?? E
GMC19924: whoops wrong direction
aggirlj: GMC Elizabeth works nights, this is morning for her.
TreetopAngelRN2: I don’t know haven’t checked yet, still in my jammies
Dehede011: 4:30PM should be MST or is it??
AGplusone: We were discussing Ginny’s disclosure, earlier, Eliz. She says Robert originally planned to make the second part of Space Cadet involve Matt having to bomb Des Moines … wadda think about that?
TreetopAngelRN2: It would have made a whiz bang story!
GMC19924: but a little tight for those long short stories they called novels back then 😉
KultsiKN: To say the last…
KultsiKN: Duh! Least.
Dehede011: Hey, didn’t he cover that territory pretty much in Long Watch
AGplusone: Makes me think he “highgraded” some of what may have been cut from Space Cadet for the American Legion story.
TreetopAngelRN2: Of course, it would have been much too gritty for a juvenile back then
AGplusone: Wouldn’t be the first time he’d done that . . .
Dehede011: 2nd question, Ginny’s comments covered him laying on the couch wrestling with the idea
Dehede011: Haven’t I heard about that couch before somewhere?
TreetopAngelRN2: It had to have been a tough decision…write what you want or write what will be bought
AGplusone: I dunno.
Dehede011: I seem to have heard about him laying on the couch wrestling with a story idea before. Anyone?
KultsiKN: Eliz, are you always that sharp in the mornings?
aggirlj: I was going to ask that. 😉
GMC19924: i doubt they’d have published a juvenile book with such an ending in those days
TreetopAngelRN2: sharp? My brain is barely churning and I NEED caffiene
TreetopAngelRN2: I am barely verbal
AGplusone: And then rewritten, shortened and toned down what he cut.
AGplusone: Cause, after all, this is going to be a juvie. Don’t want to scare the children.
AGplusone: Or make them cry.
aggirlj: I think that applies more today than it did then.
GMC19924: RAH harm a child without need? excuse me?
TreetopAngelRN2: I think the kids would have been fine with it
TreetopAngelRN2: It was the adults who decided the kids couldn’t handle it
TreetopAngelRN2: wb David
AGplusone: Except, according the the writ of Dalgliesh, as we’re going to find in the next book, little girls don’t play with guns … and XTs don’t have six sexes.
DavidWrightSr: Sorry. Got dropped somehow. AG please send me any lines I may have missed.
Dehede011: I can imagine at that age what I would have thought about us not being allowed to read about guns.
KulltsiKN: All of six lines, David
TreetopAngelRN2: Little girls don’t play with guns…I must have missed THAT messageO:-)
Dehede011 has left the room.
aggirlj: Are we getting kicked out do you think. I had a problem getting in.
aggirlj: As to Dehede.
GMC19924: probabally just the sunday internet jam
TreetopAngelRN2: I have 8 minutes…
GMC19924: er..weekend..anyway heh
Dehede011 has entered the room.
TreetopAngelRN2: I hope to heck it’s Saturday
KulltsiKN: Going to work, Liz?
aggirlj: Welcome back.
AGplusone: Well, let’s say Alice Dalgliesh was “ahead of her times” for political sensitivity.
TreetopAngelRN2: yup, back to work
aggirlj: Tell them the news!!!1
AGplusone: Recommend we take a five minute break to say good-bye Elizabeth.
DavidWrightSr: She must have terrified for her job, if she was so concerned about ‘old charlie’ being offensive
TreetopAngelRN2: Baby girl born at 8:15 CST this morning to my niece
KulltsiKN: Conga Rats!
DenvToday has entered the room.
DenvToday: Greetings all!
Dehede011: Great, mom and daughter doing just fine??
AGplusone: Hi, other Ron.
TreetopAngelRN2: It was an AOL IM birth, most of the family were in chat in the delivery room
TreetopAngelRN2: everybody doing great!
DenvToday: Good to see you all!
Dehede011: Hi Ron
aggirlj: Hi Ron.
TreetopAngelRN2: The father had his laptop with wireless connection present at the birth, and everyone but me was there
DenvToday: Howdy howdy
GMC19924: what? no netcam? ;-))
TreetopAngelRN2: LOL we discussed that!!!
Dehede011: Great day in the morning
aggirlj: I’ll add the !!!!
GMC19924: browsing…browsing….find that….. =-O
Dehede011: I wonder how long it will be before “live birth” has a new meaning
TreetopAngelRN2: they had to call me after the fact
TreetopAngelRN2: my neice was on the phone with her mother as Jade Alexis made her appearance
Dehede011: Folks, you know I was raised on a cotton farm in the 40s. This whole world is SF
DenvToday: I can see your point.
GMC19924: oh yeah? where’s our personal jet packs and flying cars? they PROMISED me i’d have em by now
Dehede011: no electricity, no plumbing
AGplusone: slidewalks. I want slidewalks.
Dehede011: look at “moller aircar”
DenvToday: And where are the silver lame jump suits and gleaming art deco skyscrapers?
Dehede011: There is your flying car
GMC19924: and the atom-powered heated highways that need no plowing..
aggirlj: I want the tube on every corner you can stumble in and hit the code and be home.
AGplusone: Actually we used to have them at LAX some terminals.
TreetopAngelRN2: I gotta get going…it’s been fun…what book are we reading next
DenvToday: Take care Tree.
AGplusone: Red Planet, Elizabeth
aggirlj: By Elizabth.
Dehede011: bye treetop and congrats
AGplusone: in print
DenvToday: Bye Elizabeth
TreetopAngelRN2: Bye everyone! Hugs!
KulltsiKN: Cya, Liz!
AGplusone: I’m running down. Got only two hours of sleep last night … did you get the gap, David?
TreetopAngelRN2 has left the room.
KulltsiKN: Dave, u 2 partying last night like me?
KulltsiKN: A great night it was…
AGplusone: Naw, actually I wish it was. Watched about ten hours of a DVD TV movie.
aggirlj: No excuses.
Dehede011: Has everyone been keeping up with the Moller Aircar?
AGplusone: No, tell us about it, Ron
DenvToday: Not me.
KulltsiKN: Is it going anywhere?
GMC19924: dehede..were you aware your font is swelling and bleeding?
AGplusone: go to non-bold and see what it does.
Dehede011: It looks like a keeper. Here let me give everyone a link and you can see for yourself
aggirlj: These poor eyes.
Dehede011: Thanks dave, it was a differrent problem. Is that bettter?
AGplusone: For me it is.
aggirlj: Ohhhhhhhhhhh much.
GMC19924: ahhh…whatta relief
aggirlj: There was a person who used yellow, has to be very young. Couldn’t read it at all.
Dehede011: I can’t find it. I’ll post it on the Heinlein Group list as Moller Aircar.
AGplusone: Anyone else wanna lead discussion for the next hour?
Dehede011: This better.
AGplusone: E.g., someone else think up questions.
KulltsiKN: Dave SR?
GMC19924: try that
aggirlj: That sounds like a Bill who isn’t here.
Dehede011: Here you go
GMC19924: yeah the FAA’s gonna LOVE that lol
Dehede011: you bet
DavidWrightSr: Sorry. been away for a bit. Yes I got the gap . thanks
aggirlj: Thanks GMC.
Dehede011: Make sure you find the video’s and look at them as well as read the blurb
GMC19924: could it be? yes..i hear FAA brain arteries popping from here
DenvToday: I love it. But the bureaucratic hoops you’d have to jump through must be incredible.
AGplusone: How does the ‘autorotate’ safety auto rotate automatically in the event of power failure, fool proof.
Dehede011: Well, just for starters you are talking a major upgrade of our air traffic control system
KulltsiKN: Powered by… MickySoft…
GMC19924: and a MSRP of UNDER 3 million!
DenvToday: Try flying it in DC and you’ll be shot down.
Dehede011: There is no way people are going to be permitted to fly that thing in really large numbers
Dehede011: That is uncontrolled
AGplusone: see what happens if you fly it over LAX
KulltsiKN: No way! We ain’t got hte wings.
DenvToday: I truly admire the people who’ve made it, but they’re thinking like free men in a free society.
Dehede011: They are predicting an eventual price about equivalent to that of a Cadillac
DenvToday: Let’s face it, we’re in semi-martial law since 9-11.
Dehede011: Extroplate that to numbers and look at the control problem
DavidWrightSr: You can bet that there will be severe licensing procedures to get through in order to fly one.
aggirlj: And with each “alert” we get closer and closer.
AGplusone: Basically we’re talking about another non-commercial aviation license. The experimentals … or kit builts?
AGplusone: Like John Denver went down in?
Dehede011: It would be mass produced
GMC19924: this question was settled right after WWII..if God had intended the average person to have personal air access he wouldn’t have invented the FAA and liability suits
Dehede011: They say the first market is probably about six passengers for the Army, etc
DenvToday: Yes, the insurance costs would be greater than that of the aircraft itself.
AGplusone: I can see that, Ron. A jeep.
DavidWrightSr: Liability is the big problem. Most of the manufactures like Piper and Cessna have been virtually put out of business for the general public
Dehede011: I believe they were for awhile
Dehede011: But doesn’t that thing look like something straight out of a Heinlein story
AGplusone: But how much more than a HumVee does it cost?
GMC19924: naw..much too crude…should be jets or antigrav 🙂
Dehede011: They are estimating the six place model for the Army at just under a million
aggirlj: Definately the Jeep.
KulltsiKN: I just can’t get it… How can the manufacturer of a thingy be made responsible for the follies of the public?
Dehede011: With a 4 place eventually coming in for about Cadillac prices
DavidWrightSr: OTOH. They need to be watched carefully. My boss is the only person to have survived the crash of a particular model of Piper which had serious defects that were covered up by the manufacturer. He got a big settlement out of that
AGplusone: Well, what about the copter that we’re going to find Bill Leamer flying at the beginning of Farmer in the Sky?
GMC19924: yeah..the army, marines and special forces will be using it
DenvToday: Sad, isn’t it? Where is the wide-eyed optimism of the 1950s? We thought anything was possible–and it is! But there’s no advance that lawyers and politicans can’t snuff out with the stroke of a pen.
KulltsiKN: Jane, don’t talk dirty! 😀
DavidWrightSr: Or Matts brother in Space Cadet for that matter
AGplusone: The four kids in Galileo had their flying licenses in high school.
aggirlj: And my bro talked real dirty.
Dehede011: Wanna hear a good one?
AGplusone: Is this one going to be about sharks?
Dehede011: When I got my first Engineering job in Chicago, Star Trek came out just afterwards
Dehede011: The engineering dept was gaga over the communicator
Dehede011: Do you realise I have made my living as a mule driver in the cotton fields, flying and as an engineer
Dehede011: What a time to live
DenvToday: Captain Kirk’s communicator looks positively primitive compared to combination cell phones/pda’s.
GMC19924: in reality..the average schmo who can afford a 50K car ..that many of them..having aircraft? hell..it’ll be raining wankel engines and cpu processors
Dehede011: You got it, GMC. But that is cheap enough there will be no stopping it.
DenvToday: Yeah, you have a point. I wouldn’t even want to think about low-riders.
Dehede011: We are back to the time a motorcycle entheusiast can build one
GMC19924: no..it’ll be stopped..mark my words..the government doesnt want it and OH MY GOD…30 people out of 300 million were KILLED last year..this Must Be Stopped
AGplusone: already sent
Dehede011: Glenn Martin where are you now that the times are good?
aggirlj: There are an awful lot of Harley riders here, no helmuts.
DavidWrightSr: Thanks again
AGplusone: And imagine the added burden of second hand jet fuel.
Dehede011: I think it uses regular gas
AGplusone: And dust!
GMC19924: probabally 100 octane
AGplusone: we’ll all get sillicosis
DenvToday: We’ll see fusion someday. Sometime in the next century, possibly after we’re all gone. But that will change everything.
Dehede011: He has made a fortune improving the Wankel engine and selling it to motor boat manufacturers
GMC19924: if we see fusion it’ll be after the oil’s all gone and we’ll probabally have to buy it from the Euros
aggirlj: I’m coming back 🙂
KultsiKN: We have been subjects to silly causes for a long time already.
AGplusone: waiting for someone to pun that, K
Dehede011: But maybe not. It looks like maybe a guy named John Taylor Gatto has the Nanny State all figured out
GMC19924: figuring it out is much different from doing anything about it
DenvToday: I’m all agog. What insights did he have?
AGplusone: Heresy alert! Heresy alert! All we need in a WWIII to clear the air.
Dehede011: Look him up on line. He spent 30 years in education, winning best teacher awards, and then decided that was our problem
DenvToday: David, if a disproportionate number of trial lawyers are killed in it, then we might have a decent shot at the future.
GMC19924: denv..gotta get the civil litigators also..they may be the more important in fact
DenvToday: Good point.
AGplusone: They make them infantry officers during wars. The regular JAGs don’t want to be made to look foolish by reservists.
Dehede011: Heck we need the lawyers for entertainment — they are the only permissable group to tell jokes about
GMC19924: nonsense dehede..u can do middle aged white males also
aggirlj: Shakespeare must have been a SCIFI guy too. “First Kill the Lawyers.
Dehede011: But lawyers really catch the dickens
DenvToday: Did you hear about the terrorist who captured a plane full of lawyers? He said if his demands weren’t met, he’d release one lawyer every hour.
GMC19924: you should look up the entire quote and context on that agg..it might surprise you
KultsiKN: Dave, good thing your typo wasn’t a ‘p’
aggirlj: Oh, just goin’ with the flow.
AGplusone: Shame you all aren’t in California. That panel we do on Heinlein’s take on Law and lawyers is pretty good. Perhaps it will soon be coming to your neighborhood. We’re doing it in Burbank over thanksgiving at LOSCon.
aggirlj: GMC I have the collected works, send me there.
KultsiKN: actually, ‘pe’
Dehede011: Did you ever see what the former Dean of the Chicago School of Law thought every extra lawyer cost our economy??
GMC19924: i wish i could agg…cannot even give you the play
DavidWrightSr: Another Con coming up. Oh Goody. Get lots of pictures to post on the website.
AGplusone: Henry VI
aggirlj: I knew it!!!!!
AGplusone: I will.
aggirlj: I was just typing you would know.
AGplusone: Dick the Butcher to the Jack Cade mob.
DenvToday: By the way, a good friend ran for the Colorado state house last week. I know many people say Take Back Your Government is out of date.
AGplusone: The rest of Cade’s ‘political’ platform was “free drinks for everyone.”
DenvToday: Perhaps it is on the national level…
DenvToday: But on the small races, it’s still a remarkable pertinent piece of writing.
Dehede011: I am a Republican in Cook County, Illinois. I think TBYG is the straight stuff
DenvToday: They still do it the old-fashioned way when running for the state house.
AGplusone: And taking over the City of Santa Monica
GMC19924: but of course…lawyers are only of value when you have law…and we have less and less of that every year
aggirlj: Very succinct.
AGplusone: the more you pass the less you have . . .
Dehede011: Denv if that is about our Illinois Republican races in the last election — that was about Reps not coming out to vote for crooks
DenvToday: Good for them. The left wing is all about power — getting it ANY way you have to. I’m glad to hear the Republicans have standards.
Dehede011: Dave, have you read Richard Epstein on law
AGplusone: I don’t read law anymore. I retired!
GMC19924: here ya go.. Henry VI, Part 2, Act 4
Dehede011: I’ve seen Illinois Reps do that twice now for specific politicians, Denv
AGplusone: Except Wiley’s cartoons.
GMC19924: god..i do so love search engines
aggirlj: I’ll check it tonight GMC, thanks.
Dehede011: Epstein is into policy
DenvToday: That’s heartening. Perhaps we’re not all “sheeple.”
AGplusone: I love the fact that Wiley’s lawyer looks like OJ’s lawyer.
AGplusone: [crossed with Richard Nixon!]
DenvToday: Great, now I’m going to have nightmares. Sheesh!
Dehede011: Denv, specifically what happened was that the rank and file Reps wouldn’t support particular Rep pols because they were thought to be dishonest
GMC19924: oh..George M. Cummings
aggirlj: Thanks George.
DenvToday: Dishonest politicians? No! Say it ain’t so! rofl
aggirlj: You guys make me 🙂 , dats good.
GMC19924: what? they don’t STAY bought?
Dehede011: Sorry, that is how it happened. I was surprised
AGplusone: Poor Arnold Swartzenegger
AGplusone: [the Republican Party’s new supercandidate for governor of California]
aggirlj: I like his movies, politics I’m not sure.
DenvToday: Actually, it’s not their personal honesty that disturbs me most — it’s their function that we have to look at.
AGplusone: Following in the shoes of George Murphy and Ronnie RayGun
GMC19924: omg..not another actor
aggirlj: But being married to Schriver helps.
Dehede011: I heard Connie Rice was the next Rep Gov of Calif
GMC19924: i’ve known a lot of actors..i suppose they should make the best politicians with their total lack of grasp on reality
DenvToday: Even if the politicians were all moral and upright to a person, they would still be using the point of a gun to intrude in all of ourlives.
DenvToday: But enough of my soapbox. lol
AGplusone: Having lost to the lack of personality of Gray Davis, they’ve decided to emulate us!
DenvToday: Kissinger had a good line: It’s the 90% of politicians who give the other 10% a bad name.
AGplusone: I’d like to lock Connie Rice and Barbara Boxer in a closed room and see who comes out alive.
AGplusone: Feinstein’s too fat to beat Rice.
aggirlj: She could sit on her.
Dehede011: And who would you bet on, Sir? LOL
Dehede011: Good name for a fighter.
AGplusone: total viciousness except when she’s before a camera. Don’t cross her.
aggirlj: Corporate ladder?
DenvToday: I’d like to see Barbara Boxer locked in a small room with a cute ‘lil baby seal. She’d be torn to shreds. lol
Dehede011: Believe it or not the best boxer on our HS team was named Nuckles
AGplusone: baby seals get hoongry!
AGplusone: You ever pull one out of the surf?
DenvToday: You betcha. But they looks so durn cute as they’re tearing your flesh off the bones.
GMC19924: whine all you like..im in NY and we have (shudder) Hellary
Dehede011: In Chicago, Dave??
GMC19924: or..if you prefer..Hitlery
AGplusone: Hellary would outclass Rice in a second. Dead Rice.
AGplusone: or flailed rice
KultsiKN: Chicken Rice, anyone?
aggirlj: We keep trying.
GMC19924: heh..put Hellary in a room with any two opponents and in 6 hours there will be nothing but polished bones and a plumper Hellary
Dehede011: I don’t know, the worse whipping I got fighting was my a complete looking milquetoast
Dehede011: by a complete
DenvToday: Hillary (Hitlery) reminds me of Livia, Augustus’ wife in I, Claudius.
Dehede011: I prefer picking fights as they are on their way out of the ring
aggirlj: Well looked who they married.
AGplusone: Yeah, and we’re really proud of her too.
DenvToday: GMC, funny!
AGplusone: Well, you know who the Sioux turned Custer over too.
GMC19924: yep…Senator Hellary…fascistic Political Correctness at it’s best
aggirlj: The women
AGplusone: The Cheyenne women.
DenvToday: And, I kid you not, they’re talking about pulling Gary Hart of his well-deserved oblivion and running him again.
Dehede011: Heck that was common enough
DavidWrightSr: Look what happened to the Prophet Incarnate in ‘If this Goes on’
GMC19924: Denv…i have a greater fear..there’s some sign Dannyboy Quale is being regroomed
Dehede011: With Donna Hart as running mate
AGplusone: If he wasn’t dead already, they made sure of it, and that he wouldn’t rise again in three days.
AGplusone: with his parts intact
aggirlj: Dehede 🙂
Dehede011: Sorry, agg
DenvToday: I can’t help but think God is sitting on His throne laughing His kiester off.
AGplusone: Her kiester off!
DenvToday: Oh yeah…sorry
DenvToday: What was I thinking?
aggirlj: Okay, Kultsi please translate.
AGplusone: Naw, I usta tell you God was real Connie Marshall before it was political correctness, din’ I Jane.
GMC19924: The difference, of course, between the dems and the repubs is the repubs want to give your money to their rich golf buddies..the dems want to give your money to their rich golf buddies and some of the ‘po people
Dehede011: ROTHFLMHO, there are gentlemen present
aggirlj: Oh, okay. Never mind.
aggirlj: I used to think the difference was that the Republicans got caught.
KultsiKN: Roll On The Floor Laughghing My …. Fundament Off
Dehede011: No GMC, the Reps want to give the money to their rich friends. The Dems want to sell tax breaks for campaign contributions
aggirlj: Got it.
DenvToday: No matter how you slice it, there’s a guy with a gun pointed at your head saying, “Fifty percent of your income, please.”
KultsiKN: just so
DavidWrightSr: I’ve told this a number of times, but when I was looking up some of these internet acronyms once, I was utterly shocked to find that ‘tanstaafl’ was an acronym even though it was spelled out directly in the text. I misread it for…
aggirlj: Oh, my favorite subject.
DavidWrightSr: 25 years.
Dehede011: Guys I am studying tax accounting presently. It hurts
AGplusone: Heh, he’s reverse Robin Hood. Robbing from the poor to give corporate breaks to the rich.
AGplusone: And he only takes half, what the H?
DenvToday: David, it’s fun to learn something new, even about a subject at which you’re an expert.
KultsiKN: He leaves you half of it, soen’s he?
AGplusone: Irony alert, Irony alert!
aggirlj: Uncle Sam.
AGplusone: And as we wind down to the last eight minutes . . . anyone have anything about non-political Space Cadets to discuss, or ask?
GMC19924: oh..it’s not FAIR to the wealthy…the top 10% of earners pay over 2/3 of the taxes!!! YEAH..BECAUSE THEY HOLD 80% OF THE MONEY
aggirlj: About the replicator? Venerian able to replicate.
Dehede011: Nope, but it has been nice to talk to you good people. bye for nnow
aggirlj: Bye. Dehede011 has left the room.
DavidWrightSr: I liked the fact that they had to learn it on their own. Classes can be a real waste of time althoug there are some benefits to a classroom setting
DenvToday: One thing always struck me about Space Cadets…and most of the other works as well. The young kids put ours to shame.
AGplusone: We were going to ask Ginny about the chemistry . . .
DenvToday: What we consider graduate-level mathematics was considered basic knowledge by 18-year-olds.
GMC19924: denv..that’s probabally because RAH never foresaw the complete lack of discipline and failure of two entire generations to maintain their society
DenvToday: So very true. They’re zoos now.
AGplusone: the absolute downgrading of the profession, and the schools.
AGplusone: Constant blame the teachers, and constant laws hindering them.
KultsiKN: Classroom learning depends greatly on the teachers, learning on your own depends on the sources you can get to. Both have good points and bad points.
DavidWrightSr: Was it Space Cadet that Heinlein actually worked on an orbit for several days and when he told some visitor that, the visitor, a scientist, said ,,,
DavidWrightSr: ‘Why didn’t you run it through a computer”. “My man”, Heinlein said, “this was 194x”
GMC19924: learning in general depends on a society that demands it..not one that says..’oh well you did your best..that’s ok..’
aggirlj: Right David.
KultsiKN: Sadly so.
AGplusone: yes . . . and Joe Major notes that unlike Campbell, he was writing for an editor who wouldn’t have known the difference if it had lept up and bit her.
DavidWrightSr: My son taught in a classroom for one semester. That was all he could take of the lack of discipline and support from the administration. This was a public school in a city
GMC19924: Children shouldn’t have RIGHTS..they need PROTECTION but they cannot properly deal with rights
DavidWrightSr: My other son taught 3 good years in a private school before he went back for his Ph.D
DenvToday: Yes David. This same friend who ran for the state house is a former high school teacher. That’s what compelled her to run.
AGplusone: Can you imagine that getting by a “young adult” editor today?
DenvToday: An interesting fantasy: Take 50 kids at random from U.S. public high schools, and put them in the Space Cadets universe.
aggirlj: The zero gravity would work on the lack of exercise.
DavidWrightSr: They would be the one with all of the excess baggage 🙂
AGplusone: Couldn’t cope. Not self-motivated enough. No longer teach self-motivation.
DenvToday: For one thing, they’d be sent back to sixth grade.
aggirlj: Basic math, communication but not computers.
AGplusone: Well, I’m going to slip-slide away . . .
DavidWrightSr: I’m surprised that RAH didn’t extrapolate the effects of zero gravity on the body as it turned out in RL, However, did anyone else do any better?
AGplusone: ’tis time.
GMC19924: half of them would probabally end up in the hands of the juvinile justice system in days
aggirlj: By David.
DenvToday: A three-dollar calculator would have stopped Starman Jones from ever having been written.
AGplusone: You folk keep going. Poof
AGplusone has left the room.
DavidWrightSr: Good Night David from Washington
DenvToday: Good night to one and all. Good to see you all again.
DenvToday: Will we be meeting in two weeks?
aggirlj: Guess it’s time, I had great fun, by to all. Good question.
KultsiKN: Who knows. Prolly.
GMC19924: best chat i’ve had on the internet since irc got easy
DavidWrightSr: Ok Folks. Log officially closed at 8:01 P.M. EST. Anything you say at this point might or might not make it into the final log 🙂
aggirlj has left the room.
DavidWrightSr: Night Jane
DavidWrightSr: Too fast for me
DenvToday: Take care, all. Thanks again for the fine discussion.
DenvToday has left the room.
GMC19924: good night gentlemen and thanks
KultsiKN: 2 fast 4 me
DavidWrightSr: You are welcome. Do you get the notifications of the chats?
KultsiKN: Nigh, George, & thx
GMC19924: yes i do..this is the first i’ve been home for AND (blush) remembered to attend
DavidWrightSr: Good. I thought I remembered the name, but wanted to be sure. We have been very limited in our chats over the last few months, but hopefully, we’ll get going good again.
GMC19924: that would be great…good night
GMC19924 has left the room.
DavidWrightSr: Auf wiedersehen und s’pokojnichi nochi i bonne nuit.
Final End Of Discussion Log