Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group Saturday 08-18-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT Tennyson/Maureen

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

Saturday 08-18-2001 5:00 P.M. EDT


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Here Begin The A.F.H. postings
[Editor’s Note: Following post is a continuation from posts made before the 8-16-2001 Discussion. See log from 08-16-2001]

Saturday, August 18th we’ll continue chatting about “Back To the Future (History)” or maybe, forgive me, “Herstory.”

I got to thinking about the title: To Sail Beyond the Sunset.

Aside from an obvious theme of resurrection of Maureen, the photo of Venus borne on the cover, why?

Long quotation coming up here …

ULYSSES, Alfred Lord Tennyson

“It little profits that an idle king,
By this still hearth, among these barren crags,
Match’d with an aged wife, I mete and dole
Unequal laws unto a savage race,
That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.

“I cannot rest from travel: I will drink
Life to the lees: all times I have enjoy’d
Greatly, have suffer’d greatly, both with those
That loved me, and alone; on shore, and when
Thro’ scudding drifts the rainy Hyades
Vext the dim sea: I am become a name;
For always roaming with a hungry heart
Much have I seen and known; cities of men
And manners, climates, councils, governments,
Myself not least, but honour’d of them all;
And drunk delight of battle with my peers,
Far on the ringing plains of windy Troy.

“I am a part of all that I have met;
Yet all experience is an arch wherethro’
Gleams that untravell’d world, whose margin fades
For ever and for ever when I move.
How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
To rust unburnish’d, not to shine in use!
As tho’ to breathe were life. Life piled on life
Were all too little, and of one to me
Little remains: but every hour is saved
From that eternal silence, something more,
A bringer of new things; and vile it were
For some three suns to store and hoard myself,
And this gray spirit yearning in desire
To follow knowledge like a sinking star,
Beyond the utmost bound of human thought.

“This is my son, mine own Telemachus,
To whom I leave the sceptre and the isle–
Well-loved of me, discerning to fulfil
This labour, by slow prudence to make mild
A rugged people, and thro’ soft degrees
Subdue them to the useful and the good.
Most blameless is he, centred in the sphere
Of common duties, decent not to fail
In offices of tenderness, and pay
Meet adoration to my household gods,
When I am gone. He works his work, I mine.

“There lies the port; the vessel puffs her sail:
There gloom the dark broad seas. My mariners,
Souls that have toil’d, and wrought, and thought with me–
That ever with a frolic welcome took
The thunder and the sunshine, and opposed
Free hearts, free foreheads–you and I are old;
Old age hath yet his honour and his toil;
Death closes all: but something ere the end,
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.
The lights begin to twinkle from the rocks:
The long day wanes: the slow moon climbs: the deep
Moans round with many voices. Come, my friends,
’Tis not too late to seek a newer world.
Push off, and sitting well in order smite
The sounding furrows; for my purpose holds
To sail beyond the sunset, and the baths
Of all the western stars, until I die.
It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho’ much is taken, much abides; and tho’
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. ”

Uh-huh … nice sentiment. Who’s speaking? The old red-haired fox himself.

Why is Maureen the first person narrator? Forgive me, but isn’t she “the old red-haired fox” herself?

I think I’d like to plan around with this silly notion for perhaps the first hour Saturday. Why, exactly, did Heinlein pick such a title out of such a poem about such a magnificent character? Are there many marked similarities between the two? If so, why?

a little fun, perhaps, about where RAH may have been headed in the “World As Myth” had it continued …

David M. Silver
“The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!”
–Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA ’29, (1907-88)
Lt.(jg) USN R’td

“David M. Silver” wrote:

>I think I’d like to plan around with this silly notion for perhaps the first
>hour Saturday. Why, exactly, did Heinlein pick such a title out of such a poem
>about such a magnificent character? Are there many marked similarities between
>the two? If so, why?

David, I see many lines in this poem that would have resonated strongly with Maureen and, indeed, many of the Howards. Here are some ( I have taken out some weird symbols that popped up);

“I cannot rest from travel: I will drink
Life to the lees: all times I have enjoyed
Greatly, have suffered greatly, both with those
That loved me, and alone;”

The eternal burden of a long lifer…more joy and more sorrow. Some Maureen faces with her family, in the later part of her life, before the rescue, she is alone and again when she is imprisoned.

“Much have I seen and known; cities of men
And manners, climates, councils, governments,
Myself not least, but honoured of them all;”

This could refer to her involvement with the Harriman Corporation; of vital importance as we discover.

“I am a part of all that I have met;”

Her personality is, to a great degree, formed by those she loved; her father, Twain, even Brian.

“How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
To rust unburnished, not to shine in use!
As though to breathe were life. Life piled on life
Were all too little, and of one to me
Little remains:”

She experiences the drag of her years at several points, even as Lazarus does at the start of TEFL. She doesn’t want to be an old woman, incapable of bearing new life and therefore useless in her society of long lifers, discarded by her husband for a more youthful version of her.

“And this gray spirit yearning in desire
To follow knowledge like a sinking star”

She does seek knowledge, signing up for as many university courses as she can, a chance to study that was not available to her in her youth and that family commitments would have made difficult in middle age.

“Old age hath yet his honour and his toil;
Death closes all: but something ere the end,
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,”

She takes on new duties as rejuvenator and spy.

“Come, my friends,
Tis not too late to seek a newer world.”


“To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. ”

Her motto for life.

I do like Tennyson….L M Montgomery, not Heinlein, introduced me to his poetry but finding that Heinlein liked it, as well as many other of my favourite poets, was a bonus as I could spot the references in his books.



Go To Postings

Here Begins The Discussion Log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group chat.”

AGplusone: Hi, Dave

DavidWrightSr: Hi made it.

AGplusone: wb to the magic world of chat rooms …

maikoshT has entered the room.

DavidWrightSr: Good I got both of my alter egos in.

DavidWrightSr: S’Ok. I’m going to have to miss first part of discussion. My wife needs me to

DavidWrightSr: take her shopping for a bit.

AGplusone: good. I actually enjoy shopping with my wife. Have for years.

AGplusone: Of course she understands not to take me anywhere near a delicatessen counter

DavidWrightSr: Keep the log in case both maikosht or my regular sign on leaves unexpectedly

AGplusone: I will. Dave. Come back when you can.

DavidWrightSr: I have two computers going, but both are dependant on a single dialup

DavidWrightSr: so if the line drops. both are down.

AGplusone: Any chance you might get to the Con in atlanta being held the labor day weekend?

AGplusone: Called DragoonerCon, or DragonCon or some such

DavidWrightSr: I do both because my regular sign on computer sometimes goes crazy on the screen

DavidWrightSr: and I can see it

DavidWrightSr: I don’t know. Faint possibility, but I doubt it.

AGplusone: I’m about to set up an ethernet now that I’ve got a router installed so I can do the same

AGplusone: hook up my wife’s laptop

DavidWrightSr: I’d love to have DSL, but neither it nor cable access is available where I live

AGplusone: That’s a shame. It will be soon. How do you hook up two at the same time with a dial-up?

DavidWrightSr: cable is supposed to be here sometime soon, but I haven’t heard very good

DavidWrightSr: things about it.

AGplusone: Buy two accounts?

DavidWrightSr: Windows 98 has a feature which allows the dialing computer to serve as a

DavidWrightSr: local tie-in to any other windows 98 computer on the same network

AGplusone: and so you echo onto the other?

DavidWrightSr: It works just like a router as far as the second computer is concerned

AGplusone: What does Windows call the network you set up? A LAN?

AGplusone: I see

DavidWrightSr: Yes.

AGplusone: okay, using the VirtualPC it sets up a quasi-LAN within my computer.

DavidWrightSr: It sets up its own IP addressing which it hands out to any one on the lan

DavidWrightSr: Dave. I’ve got to run. I’ll be back as soon as I can.

AGplusone: I haven’t download … see you.

KultsiKN has entered the room.

KultsiKN: Good evening, all!

AGplusone: Welcome Finlandia!

KultsiKN: A fine piece of music…

AGplusone: How close was I on that A-S chronicle translation?

AGplusone: I have a copy by von Karajan with Berlin Orch

KultsiKN: You did it better than I ever could.

AGplusone: But I’d read it before … for fun!

AGplusone: Altho I’m not sure it was the Worchester version

AGplusone: David Wright is off helping his wife shop. Be back later.

KultsiKN: I did understand some because of my knowledge of Swedish & German.

DJedPar has entered the room.

AGplusone: Exactly. In school we had a gloss that noted where cognates existed in Old N and Old HG or LG

KultsiKN: BTW – what’s kunnynge?

AGplusone: Hi, Denis. Met Kultsi …

DJedPar: Yes. Hi Kultsi, David, all

KultsiKN: Hello, Denis!

AGplusone: I’m afraid to guess. I’d think of one thing but say cunning first.

AGplusone: In the Wif of Bath’s tale it’s quiente (sp?) a French word

KultsiKN: I asked because ‘kuningas’ is ‘king’ in Finnish.

AGplusone: Cyning in AS

AGplusone: which shortens to Cyng by the time of that passage, thence to King

KultsiKN: Swedish (short form) for ‘king’ is ‘kung’

AGplusone: Hm … we’re talking about a passage in late A-S that Dave Wright put up on AFH Denis

AGplusone: I tried my level best to translate it.

AGplusone: The one about the battle of Stamford Bridge in 1066

DJedPar: Glad to see you included the chat between both D’s in the log.

AGplusone: The early one?

AGplusone: About the “old days” when we were both sorta younger?

DJedPar: Yes. Indeed.

AGplusone: Fun to reminisce

DJedPar: Always. At our age.

AGplusone: Best part of being ‘mature’ …

SAcademy has entered the room.

DJedPar: Hi Ginny.

KultsiKN: Hello, Ginny.

SAcademy: Hello Denis.

AGplusone: g’day, Miss (er, Mrs.) Virginia 🙂

SAcademy: Hi, Kultsi.

SAcademy: Hello, David

AGplusone: Do you know that in Spanish you never go wrong addressing a lady as señorita

SAcademy: Did I miss anyone?

AGplusone: David Wright is off helping his wife shop. He’ll be back soon.

AGplusone: We just started.

AGplusone: Jane and Bill will be by second hour they said

AGplusone: And Ron Harrison said he’d drop in …

SAcademy: Quite the family party

KultsiKN: So Jane’s going to attend after all.

KultsiKN: Good.

AGplusone: So what about my theory that Maureen is really intended to be Tennyson’s Ulysses? Anyone agree?

AGplusone: Or am I totally off-the-wall again?

KultsiKN: Jane made some very good points for.

DJedPar: I’m not all that familiar with Tennyson.

AGplusone: Beautiful poem …

KultsiKN: Neither am I.

AGplusone: I posted it on AFH

DJedPar: Will look into it.

AGplusone: old, old Useless … all his buddies are long retired … Telemachus is ruling now …

KultsiKN: I can’t really get the hang of poetry in English.

AGplusone: they feel useless … so he calls them together and they get a ship and go on one final adventure

DJedPar: I`m more into Prévert and some of the other Frenchies.

AGplusone: ‘to sail beyond the sunset’ out past Gibralter’s pilars …

SAcademy: EVer done that?

DJedPar: I love that title.

KultsiKN: To drop over the edge of the world.

Dehede03 has entered the room.

Dehede03: howdy, folks

AGplusone: No, but I’ve thought about doing it … how come Star doesn’t show up on Venice beach and invite me to

SAcademy: Hello, Ron

KultsiKN: Hi, Ron!

AGplusone: some room in a dive nearby to meet a fat lawyer with a blunderbus

Dehede03: Hi, Ginny and all

AGplusone: I keep hoping to see a personal address to Heros

AGplusone: -ed

AGplusone: oes

DJedPar: A blunderbus?

SAcademy: Welll there are a lot of dolphins there

AGplusone: Well, horse pistols are hard to find in Venice

Dehede03: Hey, Dave. Some of us get invited and some of us don’t

AGplusone: OTOH I know where there’s a blunderbus

Dehede03: Yes, but you have to be in the in-crowd

Dehede03: lol

DJedPar: Where…. where?

AGplusone: And it does tie in to the Burrough’s irrelevancy buses that come by every so often.

KultsiKN: Ah… Hope they open a service this way, too.

AGplusone: They fixed my broken nose … it’s sorta straight now, so I supposed I don’t qualify and the scar can

AGplusone: hardly be seen.

SAcademy: Are we writing fiction tonight?

Dehede03: I am

DJedPar: Maybe…

AGplusone: Setting Maureen up in the Ulysses position augered well for a very interesting World as Myth series ..

AGplusone: that might have been written had there been time and space enough

Dehede03: brb

Dehede03: back

AGplusone: I’d imagine Doctor Johnson would have done well as Nestor as well.

AGplusone: Then Woody could revert to his proper role, as Telemachus

SAcademy: Anyone know what Telemachus means?

Dehede03: No, I would love to learn

DJedPar: No.

AGplusone: No, I don’t.

SAcademy: Neither do I . Will have to dig out the Aeneid to find out.

AGplusone: Oh, God, no! Names within names ….

DJedPar: Oooh that hurted.

AGplusone: Didn’t recall Telemachus in Aeneid, do you mean the Odyssey?

Dehede03: My heroes have always been Odysseus and Athene

SAcademy: No, I never studied Greek

Dehede03: I have barely touched Latin

AGplusone: Never did either. Read a lovely translation of the Odyssey I recommend however.

AGplusone: Really good one.

SAcademy: The MIlton one?

SAcademy: Milton

DJedPar: Did Milton do a bit on the Odyssey?

SAcademy: I think so.

DJedPar: I can imagine it.

AGplusone: I can’t put my hand on my copy. Translator I refer to is either Graves (not the one who did the I, Cla

AGplusone: dius, but another one.] issued about 1964

KultsiKN: Telemachus is the Latinazation of Telemachos; son of Odysseus and Penelope

AGplusone: or a fellow named Fitzgerald … can’t remember which one it is.

SAcademy: Oh, I was finished with school by that time so I didn’t learn about that one.

AGplusone: I have the one by D … can’t recall his name right now (senior moment) the poet critic of the sixteen

Dehede03: Folks, I apologise but I am feeling ill and headed for my bed. Bye

AGplusone: th century.

Dehede03 has left the room.

AGplusone: I’m sorry ron

AGplusone: tele means what in greek?

KultsiKN: remote, I guess.

DJedPar: Carry

SAcademy: Don’t know.

AGplusone: looking

AGplusone: “far off”

AGplusone: maybe ‘machos’ means “son”?

KultsiKN: Wasn’t he born after Odysseus left?

AGplusone: ‘macho’ in Latin of course, means “masculine”

AGplusone: masculus, -i

AGplusone: a strong virile man

KultsiKN: Merriam-Webster only has the Spanish etyma

DJedPar: tele = end, as in to the end.

DJedPar: Operating at a distance or far away

AGplusone: I’m looking at Simon & Schuster’s Webster’s New World, 2d ed ©1984 College ed.

DJedPar: from Telos in greek

AGplusone: Sending my daughter to college had one benefit … replaced my old dictionary with a good one.

DJedPar: Tail…. were back to Maureen.!

DenvToday has entered the room.

DenvToday: Good afternoon everybody.

AGplusone: In Maureen many people see someone who is more than just “irregular” … was there a classic novel

DJedPar: The best source for Greek and Latin derivatives is a medical dict.

AGplusone: about an “irregular” lady to whom that may refer? Hi, Ron. Welcome

DenvToday: Thanks Dave.

AGplusone: Fanny Hill, maybe, or someone else with that sort of title. Moll Flanders?

DenvToday: Or even Myra Breckenridge. lol

AGplusone: reason I ask is rarely do I see an unfiled serial number if I look hard enough in the later RAH

AGplusone: or to put it another way, the allusions are always rife

AGplusone: Flanders was one lady who really overcame the adversities of her society …

AGplusone: as Maureen does, whether she’s fourteen or one hundred plus

DenvToday: Good point.

AGplusone: She always found a way to put her mind to doing what she wanted to do, eventually, no matter what her

AGplusone: father, her mother, her husband, her society, told her she should do.

AGplusone: The Gods were against Ulysses

AGplusone: but he got home

DenvToday: Yes, he did.

AGplusone: Is it fair to say possibly the parallelism is intended deliberately by RAH in writing Maureen’s tale

AGplusone: or is that too much a stretch.

AGplusone: What are the arguments against it?

DenvToday: No, not too much of a stretch.

DenvToday: But…

AGplusone: but me lots of buts

AGplusone: as my mother never said

AGplusone: “But me no buts … ” old saying of hers.

DenvToday: I’ve always felt that RAH was referring to himself in the poem Ulysses…as well as to his characters.

AGplusone: Do you think it possible Maureen is more like RAH than other characters. He seems to have put a lot of

DenvToday: “Old age hath yet his honor and his toil…”

AGplusone: his childhood, the wagon rides with the doctor grandfather, etc., into her.

DJedPar: I donno Denv, that doesn’t sound right, or Dave.

AGplusone: Did Alva introduce Robert to Twain’s writings anyway, he couldn’t have introduced him personally. MT

AGplusone: died the year RAH was born?

AGplusone: We know Robert played chess, as did Woody, but does anyone remember if Maureen did too?

SAcademy: 1907

AGplusone: Possibly taught by her father?

SAcademy: It was 7-7-07

DenvToday: Was Maureen modeled after RAH’s mother in any way?

AGplusone: I’ve always wondered that too. We know very little about his mother.

AGplusone: Bam Lyle

SAcademy: Noot at all. My motherinlaw was a very straight laced old lady.

DJedPar: Died when?

AGplusone: More like the former Miss Pfeiffer?

SAcademy: Robert always said that she never let her fingers know what her thumbs were doing.

DenvToday: rofl Great line!

AGplusone: yes

AGplusone: almost as good as Tom Swift and His Electric Grandmother

SAcademy: Didn’t you read that as a boy? I did.

DenvToday: It is the ultimate irony that RAH had a reputation for sexism, when he was extolling independent…

DenvToday: …competent women before most other writers.

AGplusone: Did Robert like Maureen O’Hara movies? And what color was Maureen O’Sullivan’s hair IRL. All I’ve ever

AGplusone: seen are black and white photos.

SAcademy: Not that i know of.

AGplusone: and everyone always forgets that Puddin’s real name is Maureen …

SAcademy: I forget it too. Accident, maybe.

DenvToday: I think many critics didn’t like that RAH’s women characters could be the equal (or usually the…

DenvToday: …superior) of men without disliking men.

AGplusone: And usually led men around by their noses …

AGplusone: viewed one way

SAcademy: Robert always deferred to women. I can’t see why they think he’s sexist.

DenvToday: Yes. But they were always aware of and considerate of the feelings of “the poor dears.”

DenvToday: I can’t either.

DJedPar: He wasn’t in any sense. Was he. Ginny?

AGplusone: Robert’s writings were prominent. In the 60s it became a shooting gallery to attack male writers who

SAcademy: No, not rteally, Maybe they didn’t like to be helped into cars? I don’t know

DenvToday: I think he got that undeserved reputation from Stranger. Jubal would yell “Front” and one of the…

AGplusone: presumed to write female characters outside feminist accepted ‘dogma’

DenvToday: …girls would appear. Never mind that they were supremely competent.

AGplusone: And Deety and the rest never fit into the ‘dogma’ of some

AGplusone: too sexy and liked men too much

DenvToday: Exactly Dave.

SAcademy: Me, I get angry when a taxi driver (male) doesn’t hold the door for me.

AGplusone: Now if he’s written a man-hating woman character, they’d have left him alone.

DenvToday: Taxi drivers, be warned! lol

AGplusone: I get angry when someone calls me ‘dude’

SAcademy: Really?

SAcademy: Have to remember that one.

DJedPar: I wonder if Jane likes being a “Dudette”?

AGplusone: oh yeah … I’m “Mr.” to you until I tell you otherwise.

AGplusone: I always thought it was dudess

SAcademy: Okay, Mr. Silver it will be from now on.

AGplusone: all you you are ‘otherwise’

AGplusone: of yo

AGplusone: all of you … knew I could get it right

DenvToday: Well-done

SAcademy: Fingers twisted?

AGplusone: No, second beer

AGplusone: been a long day already

SAcademy: That alcohol stuff, it will get you every time!

DJedPar: We forgive you, monsieur.

AGplusone: It does, isn’t it great!

AGplusone: Two beers and I’ll smile at everyone

SAcademy: Dunno. Never touch it myself. Or only rarely.

KultsiKN: K, I go and open that Red.

AGplusone: beer is the breakfast of all growing teenage boys ….

SAcademy: That is actually true, I don’t drink alone.

AGplusone: and you were right, Ginny. white wine doesn’t give me hangovers

DJedPar: You never did drink much, did you, Ginny?

AGplusone: [teenage boys wish it so, anyway]

SAcademy: Oh, good.

DenvToday: I never thought of it until now, but alcohol doesn’t appear very often in RAH’s works.

SAcademy: No, Denis. only at sea. Then I am a two fisted drinker.

AGplusone: No, it doesn’t. We drank a Manhattan in his honor tho, on 7-7-00 when we had the meeting out here of

DJedPar: I have a hard time visualizing that. OK.

SAcademy: Robert liked a predinner drink and a night cap

AGplusone: Steve, Bill, and a couple others.

AGplusone: Bartenders made terrible manhattans. a lost art.

SAcademy: Yes, Denis, two bloody Marys before lunch and several drinks before dinner and wine with dinner.

DenvToday: Dave, Manhattans are chic again.

AGplusone: Then I’ll have to go somewhere chic and tell the bartender how to really make one.

DJedPar: Thanks, Ginny.

SAcademy: Robert used to like brandy manhattans.

AGplusone: I liked Crown Royal manhattans when I drank them

SAcademy: When I was in college I liked Alexanders. But haven’t had one since then. One, perhaps.

AGplusone: take a sugar cube, put it in a glass, two drops of bitters in it, crush it slowly with a pestle ….

DJedPar: Denv… remember Alex in Job tying one one?

AGplusone: Oh, yes …. Swedish whats?

AGplusone: Zombies?

DenvToday: Hmmm…I don’t remember that. It’s been quite a while. I plan on rereading it.

KultsiKN: Yup, zombies.

SAcademy: Urk. don’t like rum drinks at all.

DJedPar: Lots of drinking in Job.

DenvToday: I’ll get my copy….

AGplusone: Let me drag it out … what he was drinking was a classic huge hangover.

DJedPar: The Captain made him do it.

KultsiKN: Indeed: ice cold Akvavit, zombies…

SAcademy: Once I had a French 75 party on shipboard.

DenvToday: silver fizzes on page 46

SAcademy: brandy with champagne to top it off. Highballs.

AGplusone: French 75s are fun … can’t find my copy. I’m between remodel of the bedroom where I keep most of my

AGplusone: books, with wall bookcases …

SAcademy: We warned them, but they tasted like soda pop.

KultsiKN: You take four schnapps, you are not drunk. Top it with one zombie, and you are not yourself anymore.

AGplusone: Funny thing: only time I ever had a 75 was in a place that specialized in Zombies.

DJedPar: I’ve never heard of that. Brandy with Champagne… Not French.

SAcademy: So we ended the evening with the Captain crawling off, and most of us going to bed, so when he couldn’

DenvToday: Bailey’s Irish Cream isn’t liquor, it’s dessert. So it’s impossible to get tipsy from it.

DenvToday: That’s what I keep telling myself.

SAcademy: t find anyone, he pulled the whistle for a fire drill.

AGplusone: Champagne in a wide sherbert glass. Ice cube. Float it. Pour shot of brandy over it. Don’t stir or

DJedPar: Sounds like a scene from Job.

AGplusone: shake. Drink it and drink another.

AGplusone: Then die

DenvToday: rofl

AGplusone: Is that how they made the 75s aboard the ship, Ginny?

DenvToday: The captain crawling off isn’t an image that inspires confidence in me. lol

SAcademy: No, a jigger of brandy and the champagne was added as a mixer.

DJedPar: Sadly, my drinking days went that-a-way a long time ago.

AGplusone: Ah, exactly opposite to the way we did it.

DenvToday: I can’t take the calories anymore.

SAcademy: Well, who can?

AGplusone: A French 75 is a boilermaker with champagne rather than beer.

AGplusone: And brandy rather than any old hooch.

SAcademy: But, at sea, you are constantly balancing against the movement of the ship.

SAcademy: BRB

DJedPar: Beer and Grenadine. A Bird of Paradise.

AGplusone: I have never even seriously thought of drinking aboard a ship. Most of my time at sea was bravely

AGplusone: pretending I was totally unaffected.

DJedPar: Yeah, Right.

AGplusone: and in a troop ship, staying as far as I could for as long as I could away from the ‘heads’

DJedPar: Couldn’t pee over the yardarm?

AGplusone: Going over to Germany we found the brig unlocked and totally unoccupied. We spent most of the voyage

AGplusone: there, hiding from KP details.

AGplusone: It had a separate head. Nice and clean and unoccupied.

AGplusone: Up in the bow.

DenvToday: I admire your initiative.

SAcademy: Lots of motion in the bow.

AGplusone: I was always the ‘backdoor’ type.

AGplusone: If it’s not forbidden, it’s permitted

KultsiKN: Uh-huh. Gives you a nice up-and-down motion. Right, David?

AGplusone: It didn’t smell.

AGplusone: And sergeants didn’t come around with things to keep you busy.

AGplusone: Mostly I estivated.

AGplusone: I was well-rested when we pulled into Bremen

DenvToday: That’s what I do most weekends.

SAcademy: Did you get seasick?

AGplusone: Not if I can help it.

AGplusone: Actually, never, but it’s been close a couple of times. Smell will get me going.

SAcademy: I did twice. Once at the Antarctic Convergence, and again my first day on a ground swell.

AGplusone: Which is why (sorta) I tried hard to stay off KP and away from the heads in the stern that we were

DenvToday: We could do an entire discussion just on the spacesick scenes from the juveniles.

AGplusone: ordered to use. They were slops.

AGplusone: I’m also very lazy and KP is hard work.

DenvToday: No more KP in the military. They hire outside private firms for that now.

SAcademy: Scrubbing out pots?

DJedPar: Really?

AGplusone: too bad … pots and pans are a good job. Cooks don’t harass you. Cleaning a grease trap, OTOH, can

DenvToday: Yes, they hire food services now.

SAcademy: Sure, now that they have cleaning compounds that do all the work?

AGplusone: adjust a recruit’s attitude pretty good.

DJedPar: That’s wretched excess.

AGplusone: peeling potatoes is easy work. those grease traps are hell!

AGplusone: You sometimes find dead rats in ’em

DenvToday: Shhhh…keep that to yourself. Everybody will want one.

AGplusone: ‘kay 🙂

SAcademy: I used to spend my mornings getting dead gophers out of the pool

DenvToday: Do they sell gopher nets?

SAcademy: I think those are rodents, too.

AGplusone: Going to the comissary is fun, on KP, because you steal everything not nailed down and take it back to

AGplusone: the barracks.

SAcademy: Darn beasts were always drowning in th pool.

DenvToday: Too bad chinchillas weren’t attracted to the pool. You could have had a coat eventually.

AGplusone: Privates are different from you and me.

SAcademy: do have a leopaard coat. Useless in Florida.

AGplusone: … but not much.

AGplusone: That’s one thing I enjoyed in Trooper. Juan Rico talking about how everyone stole something and stash

AGplusone: ed it for the long marches. So true.

DenvToday: Fur coats are making a resurgence. Take that, PETA!

DenvToday: Dave, if you’re in the military, it’s not stealing. It’s alternative usage.

SAcademy: I wore it in NY during the worst of the PETA thing.

AGplusone: It’s scrounging.

DJedPar: Every girl and boy in Quebec has a fur coat.

DenvToday: Good for you!

AGplusone: Every unit has to have a ‘scrounger’ essential to the continued existence of the unit.

DenvToday: Did any of the PETA types menace you?

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi again

DenvToday: Hello Jane

DJedPar: No. Never.

AGplusone: You trade what you steal for stuff the other guy stole … commerce!

ddavitt: Just popping in for a bit before L’s bedtime

ddavitt: Where are we at?

SAcademy: No they didn’t bother me. I withered them with a glance.

DJedPar: Hi Jane.

AGplusone: Hi, Jane. Lots of compliments on your reply post.

SAcademy: Hello again Jane.

DenvToday: lol I’m sure you did.

ddavitt: ? Oh, the Tennyson one?

DenvToday: I wish I’d been there!

ddavitt: Yes, lots of that poem seemed to fit when I looked at it

AGplusone: We once traded an extra D9 caterpillar that came into our hands.

ddavitt: It was only dashed off tho; might be fun to do a closer look

DenvToday: Whenver I go on a diet, I quote Ulysses. “Though much is taken, much abides.”

AGplusone: It would be a nice article to write … hint, hint …

SAcademy: A classmate of R’s had a bucket during WWII, and he had to steal all his batteries etc. He had a real

SAcademy: y well armed ship.

ddavitt: You write it then David; I’d like to read it

AGplusone: Any clue to another book, classic, that has an “irregular” lady in the title?

ddavitt: Fanny or Moll?

DenvToday: Jane Eyre?

AGplusone: I get very suspicious of RAH’s titles and everything else these days.

AGplusone: I thought that too … Eyre is an interesting thought.

ddavitt: Not suspicious; just see them as clues

AGplusone: layered writing is subject to some laughter, but in RAH’s case I’m sure it was deliberate, and fun to

AGplusone: decipher

SAcademy: Well, I supplied some of them. Puppet Masters, Cat, etc.

ddavitt: But can we pin point when he started to do that?

ddavitt: Was it hard Ginny?

ddavitt: I can never think of names for things

DenvToday: I’ve been trying for years to find Torne, Hernia, Lien & Snob in the yellow pages.

DenvToday: No luck so far.

ddavitt: ^lt;g>

SAcademy: Aalways. He’d change them around usually, and then the editor had other ideas.

AGplusone: Hard to say: remember VonRheinschmidt in LifeLine

ddavitt: True..sort of Tuckerism?

AGplusone: sorta … a parody tho

ddavitt: (Can’t you tell I’ve read the latest Journal?)

AGplusone: not intended a compliment by any means

ddavitt: Tho i had heard that term before

ddavitt: Nice how maureen and Ira got to meet maureen

AGplusone: wonder what the real ‘academics’ call it?

ddavitt: Twain I mean

ddavitt: And he wrote something for her

ddavitt: That should be in the Invisible Library

AGplusone: One of the most wonderful passages in RAH. I was amazed.

AGplusone: And delighted.

AGplusone: Was Hal Holbrook kicking around by 1987?

AGplusone: Doing Twain then?

DenvToday: He’s been doing it for 40 years.

AGplusone: Good.

ddavitt: Yes..he did a piece on redheads and cats for her…I’d love to read that…

DenvToday: He was in his twenties when he started. He’s written that he needs less makeup as the years…

DenvToday: …go by.

AGplusone: lol, so true

ddavitt: In one of those parrallel universe libraries of course

AGplusone: Old Useless was described as red-haired, wasn’t he?

DenvToday: Did RAH ever see Holbrook do Twain?

ddavitt: I wonder if the lecture they attended by Twain is documented? 1898 so Heinlein couldn’t have gone but

ddavitt: maybe his parents did?

AGplusone: And do you understand the word “fox” as applied to a woman, in American slang, Jane?

ddavitt: Yes.

ddavitt: Smart, sexy

SAcademy: Robert didn’t see it, but I did down in St. Augustine.

AGplusone: as in ‘stone fox’ …. current in 87

DenvToday: I saw it when I was a student. I thougt it was wonderful.

AGplusone: saw one of the TV portrayals

ddavitt: I don’t know who Holbrook is?

AGplusone: never in person

DenvToday: He’s an American actor, most famous for his “Mark Twain Tonight!” one-man show.

DJedPar: He looks like Mulroney of Canada.

AGplusone: Hal Holbrook is an american actor who give several one man shows portraying MT

ddavitt: Thanks.

AGplusone: gave … they were acclaimed

DenvToday: You might recognize him if you saw him, Jane. He’s been in loads of American movies.

ddavitt: could be

AGplusone: trying to think of one ….

DenvToday: Capricorn One

DJedPar: Sort of an older Jim Carey

ddavitt: I will do a search..bound to be a photo online

DenvToday: Yes, probably.

AGplusone: No, he’s much more serious than Carey … almost a character of quality actor. Not primarily a comedia

AGplusone: n

DJedPar: I agree. But good at imitation.

AGplusone: yes

AGplusone: far, far wider range

AGplusone: could do Thomas More, for example, well

KultsiKN: All the President’s Men

AGplusone: Yes, that was one that showed his range

BPRAL22169 has entered the room.

ddavitt: i have found a page..did lots of films

KultsiKN: First, “The Group” (1966)

AGplusone: Hi, Bill …

BPRAL22169: Yo, all

ddavitt: magnum Force being one

ddavitt: Hi again Bill

DJedPar: Hey, Bill!

BPRAL22169: If we are casting To Sail again, I’m leaving! Yo Denis.

ddavitt: Before that in a TV series

DenvToday: He was in The Firm I remember.

BPRAL22169: Around and around the revolving door.

DenvToday: Midway, another of his films.

ddavitt: Not a casting thread Bil

ddavitt: You can relax

DenvToday: Greetings Bill.

BPRAL22169: *whew!*

BPRAL22169: Yo, Denv.

DJedPar: No, we’re doing Twain.

KultsiKN: Did more than 2000 MT shows…

ddavitt: I have found a photo

BPRAL22169: OK — when we got to casting Wesley Snipes as Lazarus Long, I knew we had lost it!

KultsiKN: URL?

DenvToday: lol

ddavitt: He looks vaguely familiar and a lot like twain

ddavitt: One of those really long ones; not sure I can cut and paste

AGplusone: We did get sorta goofy then, but I’m still proud of my inspiration of Alex Kingston!

AGplusone: ^lt;—-depositing another dime.

BPRAL22169: Alex Kingston would make a very good Maureen.

ddavitt: Won’t let me do it sorry

DJedPar: Ginny, do you think Mo is well picture on the To Sail cover?

AGplusone: I really like her. She is a tough, smart, beautiful, and sensitive lady.

ddavitt: She’s too young..not maternal enough IMO

SAcademy: Botticelli’s Spring

ddavitt: She’s not Mama Maureen there

AGplusone: Wait til next season. She’s PG on ER.

DJedPar: Yes, looks like Mo to me.

KultsiKN: I found a photo as well.

ddavitt: Lovely picture ..but not her.

DJedPar: What inspired Boris to do it?

ddavitt: That is not the tummy of a woman who has given birth many times…

SAcademy: I think that I have some large posters of it here.

AGplusone: lots of exercise.

ddavitt: ^lt;Jane turns a pale shade of green>

AGplusone: Ask Mo

ddavitt: The exercises she does affect a slightly different body part:-)

BPRAL22169: Vallejo usually reproduces a model exactly.

BPRAL22169: including himself, of course.

AGplusone: well, I’m a model of propriety and wasn’t going to mention that ….

ddavitt: You’re raising hopes here amongst the lads, Bill

DJedPar: Jane, the tummy doesn’t go in all pregnancies.

SAcademy: If you will look it up, yo will find it’s exactly Bottlcelli’s Apring.

ddavitt: No, mine is still there

ddavitt: Just rather too much of it

BPRAL22169: “Primavera” it is often titled — the Italian for “Spring”

AGplusone: Did anyone ever get the copy of Freas portrait of RAH, btw?

ddavitt: I don’t have stretch marks tho so i can’t complain. Few million sit ups and it’sll be just like that p

ddavitt: icture

SAcademy: Thaat’s the one.

AGplusone: I could use a few million situps

SAcademy: I have never seen the Freas portrait of Robert.

DenvToday: Neither have I.

DJedPar: A Freas portrait of Robert? Where Ginny?

DenvToday: The early photos of RAH–very movie star.

BPRAL22169: You will be happy to know Lawrence Ferlinghetti drew a portrait of R from a photo

AGplusone: I like them.

BPRAL22169: Rita had lying around.

SAcademy: I don’t know, Denis,. I haven’t seen it.

AGplusone: the movie star ones … he reminds me of how my dad dressed in the fifties or forties

AGplusone: That was stylish then

DJedPar: You still have the Freas painting that Robert gave you?

AGplusone: almost like turtlenecks were in the 60s

BPRAL22169: I think those photos were taken in about 1940. ISTR the photographer was Bill Corson.

DenvToday: Are you saying there was a time when adults dressed like adults? No….

SAcademy: There are a jillion lousy pictures of R. on line,

AGplusone: Aren’t there?

DenvToday: There’s one in particular that reminds me of a young Laurence Olivier.

ddavitt: I found a picture of B’s Birth of Venus which is v similar but it will not let me post an url

AGplusone: The ones I like the best were the ones taken in the 40s and that one you took of him reading the book,

SAcademy: Some Swedish kid has done a bust of him. that is something I’d like to have.

AGplusone: looking down at it.

ddavitt: Has the same hair wrapping round the body and the shell

AGplusone: I have a downloaded copy of one of the Bot version of Venus

BPRAL22169: I thought Whelan was doing the Birth of Venus — because of the clamshell she’s standing on.

SAcademy: I call that cover picture Venus on the half shell.

ddavitt: With cat on the side

AGplusone: LazLor1 pointed me to it. The same lady who found all the what’zname paintings.

DJedPar: Oh, Ginny. I love that picture!

maikoshT: Hi Folks. Just got back and caught up on the log.

DenvToday: Which brings us back to beer. Nothing better than Dos Equis and oysters on the half shell.

ddavitt: Why won’t it let me do URL’s?!

AGplusone: Elizabeth MacLean …

BPRAL22169: Kurt Vonnegut used that as a title in one or two of his books — then Ted Sturgeon wrote it

SAcademy: Men would

AGplusone: put a space between the URL Jane

AGplusone: it will go then.

AGplusone: not as a hyperlink but as text

ddavitt: space where?

SAcademy: Me, I like the Friday cover JudyLynn had done for Friday

AGplusone: anywhere in the middle to tell AIM it’s not a hyperlink…

DJedPar: I love that one too.

ddavitt: http://www.atmos.washington. edu/~pgoodman/birth_venus.jpg

BPRAL22169: Another Whelan, I think — I liked it better than TSBTS

AGplusone: That did it.

ddavitt: But how can you use it now?

DenvToday: Yes, I love that cover.

BPRAL22169: Select, copy, paste into the “Go To” box of your browser.

DJedPar: The Friday cover is very cool. The French used it for their version.

maikoshT: cut and paste into your browser

BPRAL22169: Take out the space.

ddavitt: OK, well that’s a nice one of the Venus

SAcademy: The Germans used the Friday one, too.

ddavitt: And she has a more realistic tum

AGplusone: Yep. that’s it.

BPRAL22169: Did they title theirs “Freitag”?

DJedPar: Yes.

ddavitt: I like the Friday i have where she is leaning against the jump car

BPRAL22169: Figures.

ddavitt: And a cat is at her feet.

ddavitt: She is in a superskin suit.

AGplusone: downloaded

BPRAL22169: That’s a very interesting book, especially when compared to To Sail.

ddavitt: Did Heinlein predict Lycra there I wonder?

AGplusone: Just as flawed and as human as good old reprehensible Hugh

DJedPar: Friday was post-lycra.

ddavitt: Dime in the box!

AGplusone: not a chance

ddavitt: Really? trying to remember my first pair of leggings

ddavitt: I love the person who invented them…

AGplusone: girding loins for continuation of the Hugh wars ….

ddavitt: No, I won’t and you can’t make me!

SAcademy: Thunder in the distance.

AGplusone: Is that Jane and me, or real thunder?

ddavitt: We have rain threatening here

DJedPar: Thunder everywhere.

ddavitt: 🙂

ddavitt: I’m happy.

DJedPar: 😀

ddavitt: But Hugh is off topic

AGplusone: Oh, OK

SAcademy: It’s reql all right.

SAcademy: real

ddavitt: can’t we bash Brian instead?

ddavitt: That’s always fun…

KultsiKN: 2×4?

AGplusone: I was thinking the other day what folk on the praire have to do … Brian had all the advantages …

AGplusone: perfectly sane wife … always supportive … nearly went wacky. 19th Century dream.

ddavitt: Sure Kultsi, that works

AGplusone: And he dumps her for a bimbo.

SAcademy: Kultsi, every time you do one of those things, I amamazed at your command of English.

ddavitt: Who can have babies…

ddavitt: Maureen didn’t blame him because of that fact.

DJedPar: Maureen was a sort of superwoman, ahead of her time.

maikoshT: I don’t think babies was the real reason.

BPRAL22169: Facts of a Howard’s life.

AGplusone: Naw, who flatters him by telling him he’s just as good in the sack as a twenty-year-old … and who is

AGplusone: rich, rich, rich.

KultsiKN: Aww, shucks… It jist takes a long time and lots of readin’

AGplusone: which is why he’s as good as a twenty-year-old

maikoshT: and who tried to be richer than he really was by gypping Maureen out of her portion

SAcademy: I assure you that R’s mother wasn’t a superwoman.

AGplusone: Poor Dickie, but then he never knew, did he?

maikoshT: But. everyone knows who the superwoman was in RAH’s life;-)

DJedPar: You bet.

BPRAL22169: Indeed

DenvToday: Yes indeed.

ddavitt: Was she alive for much of the time you were married Ginny?

AGplusone: Huh? 😉

SAcademy: Quite a bit of it, Jane.

BPRAL22169: Catch up, David.

BPRAL22169: I believe she died in 1976

AGplusone: My wife Andrea thinks she’s the superwoman just because I keep saying “yes, dear, of course, dear ….

AGplusone: it’s all a lie of course.

AGplusone: 35 years of misery now ^lt;veg>

BPRAL22169: This is a portrait of me Not Going There…

SAcademy: You’re a scondrel, David.

KultsiKN: David, I take it she’s not around.

BPRAL22169: Wave bye-bye.

AGplusone: Absolutely correct!

maikoshT: All of his family seem to have been pretty long lived.

BPRAL22169: I think the main characters in the last books are painted deliberately larger than life for

maikoshT: From what little I’ve heard

BPRAL22169: literary reasons — he’s assimilating the story to mythology.

AGplusone: but everyone say a lot of things now so it will scroll up so my daughter won’t see it. She’ll fink on

AGplusone: me.

AGplusone: And I’ll suffer for it.

ddavitt: demi gods

DenvToday: lol

BPRAL22169: Yes.

maikoshT: You should, you nasty man.

BPRAL22169: That whole incest bit really solidly points in that direction. Th gods are not bound my mortal

BPRAL22169: taboos

AGplusone: If you manage to get out here in April when Jani comes, you can meet her.

AGplusone: She’s much nicer and more interesting than I am.

ddavitt: after all, LL is immortal; a godly attribute

ddavitt: And has many other non human characteristics

AGplusone: And also sane

BPRAL22169: Good point.

KultsiKN: No, Jane, just not dead yet.

maikoshT: Just read Sheffield’s ‘The Ganymede Club’. Interesting contrast to RAH long-lifers.

ddavitt: That never really gets explained

AGplusone: I bought a Sheffield too I have to read before September

BPRAL22169: Jove assimilated to Odin.

BPRAL22169: Lots of pantheons in the Tertius Family.

ddavitt: and the names..Minerva

ddavitt: Athena

BPRAL22169: Specifically, she is Pallas Athena

KultsiKN: Pallas Athene

AGplusone: Hamy … from both mythology and Cabell

ddavitt: lapis lazuli is a stone but the Lorelei were from mythology weren’t they?

BPRAL22169: It’s actually an eta, which can be transliterated either way.

BPRAL22169: And ishtar is, you should pardon the extression, the Mother lode!

ddavitt: Heh

KultsiKN: Lorelei is a place — known from Goethe’s poem

BPRAL22169: Ishtar = Isis = Hastur = Astoreth (the female complement of Jahweh)

ddavitt: galahad..back to tennyson

AGplusone: If the Titans piled one atop another, and their decendants lived on a third, then it’s tertius, isn’t

AGplusone: it?

ddavitt: and the Round table

ddavitt: hamadryad

ddavitt: Gosh..more than you think….

BPRAL22169: So lots of mythological systems are contained in the Tertius family, by reference.

DenvToday: Yes, the Lorelei were from German mythology. Enchantresses I think.

AGplusone: yes, I can’t spell that. Hard to even say

ddavitt: Another project!

ddavitt: 🙂

BPRAL22169: Wasn’t there a Lorelei Lee in a Poe poem?

maikoshT: On the Rhine, calling ships to their doom.

ddavitt: Sirens I think

KultsiKN: Yes, Denv.

ddavitt: LIke Odysseus

BPRAL22169: Sirens were Greek.

ddavitt: Similar thing; mermaids

BPRAL22169: Or amI thinking Annabel Lee?

AGplusone: Naw, just wives of Sicilian pirates trying to wreck the greeks by drawing them on the rocks

KultsiKN: Lorelei was sitting in the heights

ddavitt: They are in Tom Holt’s book, ‘Who’s Afraid of Beowulf?”

SAcademy: :-P>:o:-[:-D:-$>:o:-)

DenvToday: You’re thinking of Annabel Lee. Lorelei Lee was a Marilyn Monroe character.

DenvToday: Gentlemen Prefer Blondes

ddavitt: Whar sparked that Ginny?

DJedPar: Ginny!

BPRAL22169: There’s a library of emoticons!

SAcademy: Just having fun

DJedPar: Snowy hit the wrong key?

AGplusone: She ended up with a smile. Perfectly normal smile.

DenvToday: lol Woohoo!

BPRAL22169: What does the :-$ stand for?

ddavitt: You go girl…

AGplusone: My lips is sealed

KultsiKN: Bill Gates?

DenvToday: Lips surgery?

BPRAL22169: That’s it: collagen injections.

DJedPar: Good one, Denv

AGplusone: No, it’s put your money where you mouth is, says AOL

BPRAL22169: That’s a good one.

BPRAL22169: It’s PPOR on AFH

AGplusone: Really looks like someone been sucking on a lemon

ddavitt: I have to go now..night all.

AGplusone: Nite Jane

BPRAL22169: No – I’ve seen that one: it has an asterisk.

DenvToday: Bye Jane

DJedPar: Bye Jane

BPRAL22169: Good night.

maikoshT: Night Jane

ddavitt has left the room.

AGplusone: ;-*

KultsiKN: Nite, Jane!

AGplusone: that?

SAcademy: Nite, Jane

BPRAL22169: :-*

BPRAL22169: Yes.

maikoshT: You really have to be fast when Jane is leaving 🙂

KultsiKN: One fast lady…

BPRAL22169: We could all just simultaneously shout: GET OUT!

AGplusone: :-* kissy face …. we could take a pool on how many seconds next time

DenvToday: You’re reminding me of the last thing my ex told me.

AGplusone: I bet three seconds next time

BPRAL22169: )*(

DJedPar: What was that, Denv?

maikoshT: That looks like a star in someone’s navel to me.

BPRAL22169: Further Deponent Sayeth Not. But it was a guess at what Denv’s ex might have told him

BPRAL22169: as a parting shot.

DenvToday: It was “GET OUT!” lol

DenvToday: Not really, but close to it.

maikoshT: We have to keep it clean for the young’uns.

DJedPar: Ora pro nobis.

DenvToday: =-O Reminds me of one of those plastic blow up dolls.

AGplusone: [mmmph!]

DenvToday: Not that I’ve seen one.

KultsiKN: Young ‘uns? Oh! You mean Jane!

maikoshT: Translate David.

BPRAL22169: I t hink he has been muffled.

AGplusone: me, biting my tongue

maikoshT: Or are you limited to OE? O:-)

AGplusone: lol

BPRAL22169: :-|)|

AGplusone: ever read Gawayne?

BPRAL22169: Years and decades ago.

AGplusone: One of the most beautiful lyric passages in English …

AGplusone: ‘thus yearnes the yars in yisterdays mony ….

AGplusone: look for it

BPRAL22169: I have a favorite like that: Sidney Lanier’s “Marshes of Glynn”

BPRAL22169: “Glooms of the live-oak, beautiful-braided and woven.”

SAcademy: L, S. de Camp used to reel off a lot of that stuff in Middle English.

SAcademy: And Fritz Leiber used to recite Shakespeare by the ream.

AGplusone: Like to have heard him. Bet Anderson could do the same.

BPRAL22169: When you have to memorize “whann that Aprille with er shoures southe…” you might as

BPRAL22169: well get some use out of it.

AGplusone: that’s true

SAcademy: Not that I ever heard. Fritz’ father was a sShakespearean actor, and he had the same voice.

maikoshT: Other than some dirty russian limericks, The only poetry I memorized is the opening lines

AGplusone: Just thinking of all the norse stories that Poul wrote. Loved his Rolf Kraki

maikoshT: from Fausts meeting with Gretchen from Goethe

AGplusone: Hrolf Kraki

AGplusone: which is, of course, Hamlet

BPRAL22169: In grade school, I was required to memorize “The Highwayman” and can still reel it off by the yard

BPRAL22169: “And still of a winter’s night they say, when the wind is in the trees

BPRAL22169: And the moon is a ghostly galleon riding the purple trees

BPRAL22169: And the road is a ribbon of moonlight, looping the purple moor

BPRAL22169: The Highwayman comes riding —

SAcademy: And purple poetry

BPRAL22169: riding, riding, riding

maikoshT: Schoenes Fraulein, darf ich wagen , meinen Arm und Geleit ihr anszutragen?

BPRAL22169: Up to the old in door.

BPRAL22169: inn

maikoshT: Bin weder Fraulein, weder schoen, kann ungeleitet nach Hause gehen.

BPRAL22169: Novalis is my my line.

AGplusone: I’m whistling it, but I don’t know the words,


AGplusone: My daughter sang it tho

AGplusone: If that’s Shiller

maikoshT: well. for my money that opening in the Tale of the Adopted Daughter is very,very good

BPRAL22169: “Es war als ob der Himmel hat die Erde still gekussed…”

BPRAL22169: And that’s all that has stuck with me, I find.

DJedPar: Landlungenschnecken!

BPRAL22169: Whang in the gold!

BPRAL22169: Except I always suspected it was really “Schenken.”

maikoshT: I had a great time reading the German edition of ‘The Past Throught Tomorrow’.

DJedPar: No Schnecken. Escargots.

BPRAL22169: Ham and snails. Jum!

AGplusone: Wouldn’t be bad …

DJedPar: With sliced almonds.

BPRAL22169: There’s an Alsatian sauce made with ham and pickles…

SAcademy: How about some Finnish Kultsi?

KultsiKN: lol!

BPRAL22169: You know, they call a coiled pastry “schnecken,” too.

SAcademy: Please?

DJedPar: Makes sense.

BPRAL22169: breakfast sweetroll. We get it a lot in beverly Hills.

SAcademy: Denis is a linguist.

BPRAL22169: Lots of Sephardim.

KultsiKN: K!

KultsiKN: K!

KultsiKN: Mieleni minun tekevi,

DJedPar: Any snail dishes in Finland, Kultsi?

KultsiKN: Aivoni ajattelevi,

KultsiKN: Lähteäkö laulamahan,

BPRAL22169: International character set!

KultsiKN: Sanoja saattelemahan.

KultsiKN: Surely, international char.set

maikoshT: That’s a poem, right

SAcademy: Thank you, Kultsi

KultsiKN: the beginning lines of Kalevala, our national epos.

AGplusone: my next question. Who is it about?

SAcademy: I know about three words in Finnish, kissa, and I seem to have forgotten the other two.

BPRAL22169: I thought so — I don’t read Suomish, but the opening line reminds me of “mene mene, tekel

BPRAL22169: upharsin.”

KultsiKN: Ginny, you have an important one — that’s ‘cat’

BPRAL22169: Priorities.

SAcademy: Yes.

maikoshT: That’s all anyone needs to know in any language, besides Thanks

AGplusone: Ah … I’ll see if Bob recognizes it. I know he speaks at least one terran language. That may be it.

SAcademy: Knew that once. But I can’t remember.

KultsiKN: Kiitos!

SAcademy: Yes, Thank you.

AGplusone: Back to Kalevala, what is it about?

BPRAL22169: Finns.

AGplusone: d’oh

SAcademy: Where does that come from?

KultsiKN: Well — Finns. Singers of the Lore.

BPRAL22169: The Simpsons — Homer Simpson always says d’oh! when he does something boneheaded.

AGplusone: not dwarf blacksmiths making singing swords I suppose?

KultsiKN: Folk poetry — mostly Karelian poetry, collected and edited.

BPRAL22169: It’s an epic cycle, isn’t it — lots of legends.

KultsiKN: OH yes, David!

AGplusone: not really?

KultsiKN: Well, not quite. Tolkien WAS familiar with Kalevala, though.

BPRAL22169: I’ve only read a few of them — and heard Sibelius’ four legends of the Kalevala.

BPRAL22169: And the karelia suite, too, of course.

AGplusone: Did you get a copy of Poul Anderson’s Operation Luna?

KultsiKN: Yes. That’s music that really touches us.

BPRAL22169: And did’nt Emil Petaja write a couple of them as small books for Ace back in the 60’s?

BPRAL22169: Sibelius is one of my all time favorites — particularly the 3rd symphony.

BPRAL22169: “The Star Mill,” ISTR

KultsiKN: I think I’ve heard of those books.

KultsiKN: Never read, though.

BPRAL22169: Petaja was great friends with Hannes Bok

BPRAL22169: another Finn of note in SF

AGplusone: You’d find one character in Operation Luna interesting

AGplusone: Not counting the sword himself

AGplusone: and, of course, the red-haired lady

SAcademy: We Americans should learn more about Finland. It’s a lovely country. If I couldn’t live here, I’d li

KultsiKN: 😀 Of course.

SAcademy: ve there.

DJedPar: Let’s move.

SAcademy: Okay, when do we start?

BPRAL22169: Let’s club together for a snow plough and a set of floodlights, first.

AGplusone: we’ll room together next semester, Kultsi

DJedPar: Whenever. Kultsi will help with passports.

SAcademy: I do have Arctic gear.

BPRAL22169: So you do.

KultsiKN: Bill, it ain’t that bad.

DJedPar: We can visit the Lapps.

AGplusone: I’m really good at sitting by the fire. My wife is a Lapp.

SAcademy: I have.

DJedPar: Really?

AGplusone: mostly, the part of her that isn’t Filipino

BPRAL22169: Just a joke, Kultsi. Compared to California, everywhere needs snow ploughs and flood lights.

SAcademy: Yes.

KultsiKN: You are, definitely, all of you, most wellcome to come whenever you want.

BPRAL22169: Incidentally, have you read Neal Stephenson’s latest book, Cryptonomicon?

AGplusone: They’re very proud of being lapps, the Foss clan.

SAcademy: I’ have been there four times.

DJedPar: The Lapps are a very noble people.

BPRAL22169: You came out of the Soviet union into Finland, didn’t you?

KultsiKN: I’ve spoken on the phone with one of Ginny’s friends here.

maikoshT: I’d like to visit Valaam Monstery there.

maikoshT: Monastics not Monsters

KultsiKN: There are no monsters in Valamo. 😀

AGplusone: Right … and Grendel never existed

AGplusone: nor his mother

AGplusone: Anyone besides myself enjoy the movie: The Thirteenth Warrior?

DJedPar: No.

AGplusone: See it?

DJedPar: Have the DVD

AGplusone: Ha!

DJedPar: Maybe I wasn’t in the mood.

KultsiKN: First, we were a part of Sweden, for about a millennium, then we were part of Russia for 110 years.

AGplusone: lovely trick the author played on us, didn’t he?

BPRAL22169: That’s what Russia thought, anyway. I understand the Finns had a different opinion at the time.

AGplusone: Beowulf from another direction.

KultsiKN: Yes, Bill. We were Finns.

BPRAL22169: Sisu

maikoshT: Does Sisu have a real meaning in Finnish?

KultsiKN: Right. Like a juniper: bend, don’t break.

BPRAL22169: I don’t think it could be translated — can it?

AGplusone: Is that what it means?

BPRAL22169: Like the Spanish word duende cannot be translated.

KultsiKN: Sisu is…

SAcademy: brave spirit.

SAcademy: I think.

KultsiKN: You have nothing — but sisu. With that you go against overwhelming odds: through the gray stone,

KultsiKN: if that’s what it takes.

SAcademy: Good for you, Kultsi.

BPRAL22169: We do have an equivalent in English. I just thought of it: The Right Stuff

AGplusone: punctillo … what does that mean?

KultsiKN: Thanks, Ginny.

maikoshT: An apt name for a ship of the People.

AGplusone: honor plus necessity?

AGplusone: probably spelled the Spanish word wrong … let me see if I can find it.

BPRAL22169: I always thought punctilio was scrupulous adherence to formalities — with an implication of dash.

BPRAL22169: There are a few languages with words like ‘sisu’ and ‘duende.’ The details always differ

AGplusone: it has something to do with a point of honor

BPRAL22169: because what they really mean is “that’s what we are!”

AGplusone: you have to abide by it

maikoshT: The mention of Hrolf Kraki above reminded me of that derogatory term in Citizen, a ‘fraki’.

AGplusone: if you have the honor

maikoshT: nobless oblige?

AGplusone: even unto the breach

AGplusone: even if the breach isn’t big enough

BPRAL22169: Neal Stephenson makes this point about sisu with some Finnish characters in WWII

KultsiKN: David, it’s not honor.

AGplusone: no, what then?

BPRAL22169: “mensch” is a similar word.

AGplusone: duty?

SAcademy: NO, Bill, it isn’t

KultsiKN: Or perhaps it is. Pride. Necessity.

BPRAL22169: “That’s what it means to be a Finn!”

maikoshT: Like John Dahlquist?

BPRAL22169: I thought he was a Swede.

BPRAL22169: But perhaps I’m being over-literal.

AGplusone: 🙂

maikoshT: I was thinking of what he did, not who he was

AGplusone: sí, claro

SAcademy: Swedish and Finnish are the two languages they speak there.

KultsiKN: Yes

BPRAL22169: A Spaniard would say of someone “he/she has duende” or “is duende” if they see an example

BPRAL22169: that embodies the highest, best vision of what it means to be a Spaniard. It’s sayign “he is

BPRAL22169: Spain”

maikoshT: Kultsi. did a lot of Swedish and Russian actually get into Finnish?

SAcademy: Spaniards are quite different from Finns.

KultsiKN: And it’s pride, si?

BPRAL22169: Si.

BPRAL22169: It’s the same kind of word — embodiment of the spirit of a people.

AGplusone: We really need Korzypski in here now. the burden on some words is incredible.

KultsiKN: You got it, Bill.

BPRAL22169: Thanks.

SAcademy: Now you’re approaching it, Bill.

BPRAL22169: Sisu is what makes a Finn a Finn.

maikoshT: Then Dahlquist is not a good example, his is just personal heroism.

BPRAL22169: And not a Swede

BPRAL22169: Good distinction.

KultsiKN: Nom Dahlquist is a very good example.

KultsiKN: I.M. No, dahl…

KultsiKN: What needs to be done, is done.

maikoshT: But he didn’t do it out of any sense of national or cultural pride.

maikoshT: I don’t think

AGplusone: “fit”

KultsiKN: We are quite individual.

SAcademy: I will post a Finnish site on afh, if you like.

maikoshT: Great. I’d like to see that

BPRAL22169: That would be quite interesting.

BPRAL22169: A curiosity about the language — the only other language on earth Finnish is related to is . . .

BPRAL22169: Hungarian.

SAcademy: Okay I will do it tonight, if I don’t get caught by that storm approaching.

KultsiKN: Take the war: our soldiers are taught to fight alone, if need be.

AGplusone: How’s that Swedish site? Does he get any traffic?

maikoshT: An army of one 🙂

BPRAL22169: Now there’s a nice little paradox.

KultsiKN: Also Estonian, some languages in Siberia and so on.

AGplusone: Oh, gawds

maikoshT: That’s a joke, Kultsi. a current ad about the army talks about being ‘An Army of One’

BPRAL22169: I see we have hit the witching hour.

KultsiKN: That’s just because you are finally getting there… 😉

AGplusone: I have no clue what Madison Avnue is trying to tell the recruits and can only conclude that Puzzle

AGplusone: Palace is smoking very skinny cigarettes.

SAcademy: Thank you ever so much, Kultsi

maikoshT: Looking back at the log, I see one answer to my question. Kuningas is King in Finnish

AGplusone: Thanks, yes.

maikoshT: from Swedish. Did you know that Knyaz in Russian comes from the same source?

AGplusone: Yes, ‘cynning”

BPRAL22169: I wonder if that’s a borrow work. Koenig in German.

AGplusone: Derivative

maikoshT: Koenig and Kunigas both derive from proto-german

BPRAL22169: Philology is endlessly fascinating.

AGplusone: My grandmother was born in Gdanzk

KultsiKN: We have several words that are very early Germanic loans

BPRAL22169: Yes, fromt he Greek Kunos!

BPRAL22169: Joke, joke! No rotten tomatoes.

AGplusone: that was my first unstated guess

KultsiKN: We have retained them almost in their unaltered forms.

maikoshT: David is very good at translating early languages O:-):-D

AGplusone: That’s cause david is very early and ancient

KultsiKN: Our word for beautiful is ‘kaunis’, the original word was ‘skauns’

BPRAL22169: schoen.

maikoshT: I knew a fellow in the army named ‘Kaunas’

KultsiKN: Yes, ‘ch’ as ‘k’

maikoshT: cognate to schoen?

KultsiKN: Kaunas is a city in Lithuania.

BPRAL22169: I think it’s pronounced sKon in Swaebisch

BPRAL22169: Kaunas City?

KultsiKN: could well be.

AGplusone: Ah, just north of Butler ….

maikoshT: Dialect Geography is also fascinating.

KultsiKN: Doh!

BPRAL22169: Yup

AGplusone: And now that we’ve come full circle

BPRAL22169: Yes, we do go ’round in circles, don’t we?

KultsiKN: The girl from downstairs was there last year.

AGplusone: I thank you all for putting up with me the past three hours

KultsiKN: In Lithuania.

AGplusone: and promise I’ll reform …

maikoshT: Anyone want to join in the pool on that promise? 🙂

BPRAL22169: Well I’m going off to rest from my labors.

AGplusone: as soon as I find time how to figure out to do it

KultsiKN: As always, the pleasure’s been ours.

DJedPar: The cats tell me the chicken is ready to come out of the oven.

DJedPar: Bye all.

BPRAL22169: I get turkey tonight.

SAcademy has left the room.

AGplusone: or as Midnight the Cat used to say …. Niiiiice!

BPRAL22169: Good night all. A pleasure.

maikoshT: Enjoyed it folks. Wish I could have been here the whole time.

DJedPar: Enjoy!

BPRAL22169 has left the room.

DJedPar has left the room.

AGplusone: Got it all Dave?

maikoshT: Got it all twice.

AGplusone: Good night David

maikoshT: Night Chet.

AGplusone: and good night from NBC

KultsiKN: Bed for me, C ya, folks! Nite!

maikoshT: Nite Kultsi. How do you say that in Finnish

AGplusone: nite Kultsi … sleep well

KultsiKN: 🙂 Hyvää yötä!

maikoshT: Easy for you to say 🙂

maikoshT: Same to you again

AGplusone: not very

KultsiKN has left the room.

maikoshT: Denv. Are you still here or have you gone to sleep?

AGplusone: time for me to nap … wife should be home soon

maikoshT: Talk to you later. Did you try sendine me that minutes etc?

AGplusone: two aspirins for three beers … that’s about right, isn’t it.

AGplusone: Not yet. Will do it tonight.

maikoshT: Thanks.

AGplusone: me gusta

maikoshT: Denv must have gone to supper or something.

maikoshT: That’s it

AGplusone: hope so … I’m hongry

maikoshT: Log officially closed at 8:10 P.M. EDT

maikoshT has left the room.

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