Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group June 24, 2000 ‘Ordeal in Space’, ‘Green Hills of Earth’ and ‘Searchlight’

Heinlein Reader’s Discussion Group

June 24, 2000

‘Ordeal in Space’, ‘Green Hills of Earth’ and ‘Searchlight’

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From: AGplusone

Topic: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 1 of 32

Sent: 17 Jun 2000 07:37:22 GMT RAH-AIM Meeting Notice The Robert A. Heinlein Reading Group http://members.aol.com/agplusone/rahmain.htm

Topic: Continuing the Future History with the short stories “Searchlight,” “Ordeal in Space,” and “The Green Hills of Earth,” all of which may be found in the collection _The Past Through Tomorrow_, or in part in the collections _The Green Hills of Earth_ and in part in _Expanded Universe of Robert A. Heinlein_.

Place: On “AIM” software, see: http://www.aol.com/aim/home.html/ then register, download and install it. Notify us of your registered user name so we may expect and invite you into the room “Heinlein Readers Group.”

Dates & times: Thursday, June 22, 2000, from 9 PM to midnight, EDT _and_ Saturday, June 24, 2000, from 5 to 8 PM, EDT

These are three of the more interesting Future History stories. One generated more letters to _The Saturday Evening Post_, in which it was originally published, than any other short story of its type and is recognized as among the finest ever written. Post your thoughts about these three before our meeting as a reply to this post. Remember, the more posts, the better our discussions.

See you next Thursday and Saturday.

— David M. Silver

“I expect your names to shine!”

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From: ddavitt

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 2 of 32 (In response to AGplusone)

Sent: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:53:37 -0400

Green Hills, Ordeal and Searchlight…..quite a mixture really. Searchlight is short. Very short. A lot of people in it don’t even have names, just ranks or titles ( except the heroine, Elizabeth Barnes, “Blind Betsy” and the pilot, Major Peters). This is a story that is stripped down to the bare essentials. So…does this ring a bell?

“Anne, I’ve got a really sick – making one. It’s about a little kitten that wanders into a church on Christmas Eve to get warm. Besides being starved and frozen and lost, the kitten has -God knows why – an injured paw.”

Now look at Searchlight….a civilian lost on the Moon….a female civilian….a child female civilian….a _blind_, female child civilian….who’s there to do charity work….WHERE’S MY HANKY?! Heinlein and Jubal; both cynical manipulators of their audience. 🙂 Looking at it more seriously, it contains some elements that appeared in Black Pits; an emergency because of a lost child, some people reacting like headless chickens, some coolly formulating a plan. Look at the attitude of the person ( we don’t know who) who is bullying the Commanding General on the Moon;

“Betsy Barnes is there somewhere – so every man is to search until she is found. If she’s dead, your precious pilot would be better off dead too!” This is a shocking thing to say; why is her life so valuable that it’s necessary for the man who may have caused the crash to die for his possible errors? Not to mention risking the lives of the searchers, though the need to help find someone is a basic human urge.

Look at what happens when an ingenious ( I can’t comment on the feasibility of it; anyone?) rescue plan is being described to the President ( of the US?). He interrupts the speaker with an hysterical, emotionally charged , “All this while a little girl is _dying_?” How many of us cheer when Betsy’s father cuts in with a firm, “Mister President – _shut up_!” We don’t get much idea of Betsy; she’s brave but she’s supported by a lifetime of being cared for;

“People take care of me, always have.”

There are other blind people in Heinlein’s work; the head of the Academy in Space Cadet is one. Those characters who suffer this loss always surmount it with courage. This leads of course to Green Hills and Rhysling….. There are a couple of trivia questions that hit me as I was reading it; Rhysling wins his accordion by cheating at “one thumb” ; what’s that? Also, he becomes one of the landmarks of space, like Halley’s Comet, the Rings and Brewster’s Ridge. What’s this last one?

Rhysling is never really portrayed as a hero; even though he twice sacrifices himself for the sake of the ship and her passengers. ( Though we know better….) Why? Because it’s his job. It’s what he does, it’s what he is. Simple as that. Even when his blindness stops him from working,

” It was his conceit that he was still a jetman and that his present occupation as a troubadour was simply an expedient during one of the fusses with the Company that any man could get into.”

We are told that jetmen are far from being romantic characters; “Jetmen were the most carefree of the lot and the meanest. Compared with them the masters, the radarmen and the astrogators ( there were no supers or stewards in those days) were gentle vegetarians.” His first blacklisting was for writing a song when he should’ve been watching his gauges; Heinlein does all he can to make him seem disreputable…..so why does his story usually have me in tears?

It could be the poetry….Heinlein outdid himself with the poems in this story, short bursts of them that make us want to own the Complete Rhysling. I suggested that Heinlein got the inspiration for some of the poems from Kipling; Jet Song is very like The Juggler’s Song from Kim, but there’s no doubt that Heinlein’s poetical side was showing when he wrote this story.

It’s also interesting to read the relevant part of TEFL when Lazarus and Noisy Rhysling meet up at Lazarus’s bordello on Mars. Lazarus doesn’t know who he is; not so famous then perhaps and he discounts (probably wisely) Rhysling’s claim to have been a chief engineer. He has Rhysling singing one of his “own” songs; “When the Pusher Met My Cousin” aka “Since the Pusher…” and of course, “Born Loser”, the Pawnshop song that has resonances throughout TEFL, especially in the Dora story. I like this tie in between two of Heinlein’s best known characters.

There’s an almost Rhyslingesque bit in Ordeal In Space; ” He would find himself day dreaming – the star – sharp, frozen sky of Mars, or the roaring night life of Venusburg. He would see again the swollen, ruddy bulk of Jupiter hanging over the port on Ganymede, its oblate bloated shape impossibly huge and crowding the sky. Or he might, for a time, feel again the sweet quiet of the long watches on the lonely reaches between the planets.”

This story has a hero too; but Heinlein is showing us once more that a hero is not always rewarded by a medal, cheering crowds and adulation. Most of his heroes die or are left shattered by their actions; at first it seems as if Bill is going to be one of them. There is some hope; he is told that there is no trauma, it’s just “functional” ( whatever that means). His saviour is a kitten, the need to rescue this bedraggled piece of fluff overcomes the fear of falling. Heinlein gives us two damp palm bits of description in this story; the repair that leads to Bill hanging, suspended over an infinite “drop” in order to save over fifty people and a more mundane ( but equally life threatening) rescue of a kitten by edging out on a ledge on the thirty fifth floor. (Just how did that kitten get there? Never mind…..see below)

The story begins by Heinlein saying that there are two innate fears; fear of noises and fear of falling….is this correct btw? What about darkness?

Just as a personal note, I had my own ordeal two weeks ago; I walked into my bedroom to see my two cats outside the window, on a narrow ledge, twenty odd feet above a stone patio…..they had pushed at the bottom of the fly screen, gone out, the screen had fallen back into place and there they were; trapped. I rushed over, lured Tally to the part that was glassed in (it’s a sliding window) and gently pushed at the screen ( almost knocking Mac off). I made a long arm and grabbed Tally. One in, one to go….Mac wandered along the ledge, good, good, that’s it puss cat….then lay on his back in prime tummy tickle postion and STARTED TO ROLL FROM SIDE TO SIDE!! I still have faint scars from grabbing him by his tail and yanking him in but it was worth it.

Jane

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From: Phil Culmer

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 3 of 32 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:34:46 +0100

The Freudian Demolition Brothers is not at all certain that the Satanic Verses implies the divinity of ddavitt, and declares that, like it or not, we shall see that oh-so-fresh feeling.

There are other blind people in Heinlein’s work; the head of the Academy in Space Cadet is one.

He’s not blind. He’s just lost the use of his eyes (IIRC)

Phil. —

“SF fandom is the world’s largest ADD support group.” Nancy Lebovitz

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From: ddavitt

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 4 of 32 (In response to Phil Culmer)

Sent: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:55:11 -0400

Phil Culmer wrote:

ddavitt wrote

….There are other blind people in Heinlein’s work; the head of the Academy in Space Cadet is one.

He’s not blind. He’s just lost the use of his eyes (IIRC)

Phil.–…..

That was an interesting take on it 🙂 It impressed me the first time I read it; the implication I took was that some people, even with a “handicap” could still function at a higher level than most people were capable of; special people, Heinlein’s elite. Baslim was another example of this I think.

Jane

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From: AGplusone

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 5 of 32 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: 20 Jun 2000 23:11:49 GMT

Re: Searchlight, Jane wrote:

Searchlight is short. Very short. A lot of people in it don’t even have names, just ranks or titles ( except the heroine, Elizabeth Barnes, “Blind Betsy” and the pilot, Major Peters). This is a story that is stripped down to the bare essentials.

I received two e mail today from Mrs. Heinlein, who reads this newsgroup, both connected in a way with the three stories we’re reading for Thursday and Saturday’s meetings. The first recites part of what is in Jim Giford’s RAH:ARC about who it came to be writing, but does contain a little additional matter, so I’ll reproduce it here for you:

“There is a story behind this story: While Robert’s agent was away on a trip, Hoffman Electronics needed a short short story for a series of ads they were running. Robert told them that a short short science fiction story was a contradiction–too much to be explained for that format.

But they kept after him, and upping the ante. (The advertising agency.) Eventually they offered him about a dollar a word, and Robert could not resist that. So he sent in two sketches for stories, one of which was Searchlight.

He wrote the story, and sent it in through Lurton, who had returned. Lurton was astounded at the offered price,and told Robert that he really didn’t need an agent!

A short story to go with a short short.

Ginny”

The second relationship is this: one of the Rhysling songs is “Grand Canal.” Today, a NASA news conference made an announcement pertaining to Mars. Mrs. Heinlein forwarded one of her correspondent’s understanding of it to us:

“OK, I now know what the Mars fuss is all about, now. There is standing LIQUID water at the bottom of Valles Marineris on Mars. The deepest point on the planet; a point where the temperature/pressure is such that, for times (such as at midday) there may be liquid water. (Near the triple point? I need my CRC!) The Grand Canal. And where there’s liquid water…there is life.” We could use some more posts about these three stories, so Mrs. H, I think, is trying to help us out a bit.

— David M. Silver

“I expect your names to shine!”

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From: AGplusone

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 6 of 32 (In response to AGplusone)

Sent: 20 Jun 2000 23:23:38 GMT I wrote: about who it came to be writing My fingers lead a life of their own, wild and free … it’s a sign of their age. “… about how it came to be written” is, of course, what my mind told them to write … but then my fingers obey my mind about as much as my cat Bob does. — David M. Silver “I expect your names to shine!”

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From: Gaeltach

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 7 of 32 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:05:17 +1000 Jane wrote: Phil Culmer wrote: ddavitt wrote There are other blind people in Heinlein’s work; the head of the Academy in Space Cadet is one. He’s not blind. He’s just lost the use of his eyes (IIRC) Phil. That was an interesting take on it 🙂 It impressed me the first time I read it; the implication I took was that some people, even with a “handicap” could still function at a higher level than most people were capable of; special people, Heinlein’s elite. Baslim was another example of this I think. Jane Veering slightly OT, I seem to recall a collection of short stories several years ago by an author whose name I have forgotten. One (or several) of the stories involved the main character losing most (if not all) of his senses i.e. sight, hearing …etc. Even though the community he became involved with were all similarly “handicapped”, they had transcended to another level of existence/intelligence. Can anyone help me refresh my memory? Sean *************** ….. and now for something completely different: To O.T.? ***************

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From: Tony

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 8 of 32 (In response to Gaeltach)

Sent: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:40:32 -0500

Gaeltach wrote:

Jane wrote:

Phil Culmer wrote:

ddavitt wrote

….There are other blind people in Heinlein’s work; the head of the Academy in Space Cadet is one

He’s not blind. He’s just lost the use of his eyes (IIRC) Phil.

That was an interesting take on it 🙂 It impressed me the first time I read it; the implication I took was that some people, even with a “handicap” could still function at a higher level than most people were capable of; special people, Heinlein’s elite. Baslim was another example of this I think.

Jane

Veering slightly OT, I seem to recall a collection of short stories several years ago by an author whose name I have forgotten. One (or several) of the stories involved the main character losing most (if not all) of his senses i.e. sight, hearing …etc. Even though the community he became involved with were all similarly “handicapped”, they had transcended to another level of existence/intelligence. Can anyone help me refresh my memory?

Sean…..

I don’t remember the name of the story itself but it is by Harlan Ellison and is in either his “Dangerous Visions” or “More Dangerous Visions” anthologies.

Hope this helps you locate the story.

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From: Gaeltach

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 9 of 32 (In response to Tony)

Sent: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:17:34 +1000

Tony wrote:

Gaeltach wrote:

….Veering slightly OT, I seem to recall a collection of short stories several years ago by an author whose name I have forgotten. One (or several) of the stories involved the main character losing most (if not all) of his senses i.e. sight, hearing …etc. Even though the community he became involved with were all similarly “handicapped”, they had transcended to another level of existence/intelligence. Can anyone help me refresh my memory?

I don’t remember the name of the story itself but it is by Harlan Ellison and is in either his “Dangerous Visions” or “More Dangerous Visions” anthologies.

Hope this helps you locate the story…..

Thanks Tony. I’m not sure if this is it. I had a feeling it was by a more obscure author, but I’ll check it out.

Sean

***************

….. and now for something completely different:

Tony not? ***************

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From: BPRAL22169

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 10 of 32 (In response to Tony)

Sent: 21 Jun 2000 14:12:50 GMT

by Harlan Ellison

I don’t think so — I read that a year or so ago, and I think it may be a Varley story, though my memory is vague about it, too — a commune from which the protagonist is ejected, IIRC. Is that the story? Bill

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From: Tony

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 11 of 32 (In response to BPRAL22169)

Sent: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:43:57 -0500

BPRAL22169 wrote:

….message by BPRAL22169 …..

You are right. Try Varley’s anthology “Persistence of Vision” with the title story.

Varley would have been my next choice after Ellison as I have both of the “Dangerous Visions” books as well as Varley’s “Opiuchi Hotline” and “Persistence of Vision”.

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From: Andrew Foley

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 12 of 32 (In response to Tony)

Sent: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:48:53 +0100

Tony <“acvickers”@hotmail.com> wrote in message<>…

Gaeltach wrote:

Jane wrote:

….Veering slightly OT, I seem to recall a collection of short stories several years ago by an author whose name I have forgotten. One (or several) of the stories involved the main character losing most (if not all) of his senses i.e. sight, hearing ….etc. Even though the community he became involved with were all similarly “handicapped”, they had transcended to another level of existence/intelligence. Can anyone help me refresh my memory?

I don’t remember the name of the story itself but it is by Harlan Ellison and is in either his “Dangerous Visions” or “More Dangerous Visions” anthologies.

Hope this helps you locate the story….

Ellison’s story in DV is “The Prowler in the City at the Edge of the World”, and is about Jack the Ripper in a future city (it’s a sequel to the Robert Bloch story immediately preceding it — both were subsequently reprinted in Ellison’s _Partners in Wonder_). It’s more than 25 years since I read it, but I don’t recall it having any of the characteristics described above. Ellison doesn’t have a story in _Again, Dangerous Visions_, because one of the rules for the anthologies was “one ‘shot’ only”.

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From: David Wright

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 13 of 32 (In response to AGplusone)

Sent: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:01:29 -0700

Inspired by something David Silver did at the last chat, I have developed a way that *anyone* can join the chat without being invited in. Here is an excerpt from my updated Heinlein Bulletin web page:

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

*** Begin of excerpt **** However there is another easy way that anyone can join the group without having to be invited. This works for PC users as well as MAC users.

When you execute the AIM program you can invite any person, real or fictitious, to a chat. This will generate a chat room with a name based on your AIM registered name, e.g. ‘dwrighsr Chat75’. Prior to opening the room, change this name to

‘Heinlein Readers Group’. (Make sure you spell it correctly)

and then click on ‘send’ to open the room. If you used a fictitious name, then a message will appear saying that the fictitious person is not available. A real person may accept or decline. To make it simpler and to avoid the possibility that your fictitious name actually might be a real one that you don’t know about, you can add your own registered name to your buddy list and issue an invite to chat to yourself. In all cases,don’t forget to change the name as mentioned above.

*** End of Excerpt

Note: Obviously, you must have the AIM program installed for this to work. You can get it (PC or MAC) at:

http://www.aol.com/aim/

David Wright

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From: David Wright

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 14 of 32 (In response to David Wright)

Sent: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:09:58 -0700

Actually, David *developed* this. I just figured out what he had done and experimented until I could do it. Give credit where it is due.

David

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From: Jani

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 15 of 32 (In response to Gaeltach)

Sent: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:26:31 +0100

Gaeltach wrote in message news:

….Veering slightly OT, I seem to recall a collection of short stories several years ago by an author whose name I have forgotten. One (or several) of the stories involved the main character losing most (if not all) of his senses i.e. sight, hearing ….etc. Even though the community he became involved with were all similarly “handicapped”, they had transcended to another level of existence/intelligence. Can anyone help me refresh my memory?….

Sounds like The Country of the Kind (Damon Knight, IIRC) The sighted character is blocked at every turn by the blind community, and ends up realising (just before he dies) that sightedness is not quite as superior an attribute as he first thought.

Sean, if this is not the one you were thinking of, I dare you to go to rasfw and post a story ID request. You will get your answer, but may be beaten up by the published authors and smart-alec trolls who reside there

Jani

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From: AGplusone

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 16 of 32 (In response to David Wright)

Sent: 22 Jun 2000 19:57:46 GMT

….Actually, David *developed* this. I just figured out what he had done and experimented until I could do it….

I’m sure I’m not the first to figure this one out. Mac users have to be tricky and devious. Programmers keep ignoring us–or maybe they figure they don’t have to put stuff directly into menus because we’ll figure out ways to do possible things without ’em.

— David M. Silver

br>”I expect your names to shine!”

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From: Chris Croughton

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 17 of 32 (In response to AGplusone)

Sent: 22 Jun 2000 19:17:49 GMT

On 17 Jun 2000 07:37:22 GMT, AGplusone wrote:

Place: On “AIM” software, see: http://www.aol.com/aim/home.html/ then register, download and install it. Notify us of your registered user name so we may expect and invite you into the room “Heinlein Readers Group.”

I don’t suppose anyone has equivalent software for Linux, or a protocol specification? Not that I’m going to write it by the meeting even with a spec.

(Their page doesn’t even have a proper content-type, it comes out as */*, I had to d/l the page to disk and then view it…)

Chris C

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From: David Wright

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 18 of 32 (In response to Chris Croughton)

Sent: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:01:17 -0700

In article , (Chris Croughton) wrote:

On 17 Jun 2000 07:37:22 GMT, AGplusone wrote:

(snip)

….I don’t suppose anyone has equivalent software for Linux, or a protocol specification? Not that I’m going to write it by the meeting even with a spec….

(snip)

Sorry. You would have to bug the AOL people about that one. While I have a great deal of respect for the Linux platform, (I primarily work in Unix myself), there is going to be a significant amount of time before it catches up with the Windows and MAC. I hope I’m wrong. I have seen a number of major players getting into the Linux area, and I hope that will increase.

David Wright

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From: Mike Shear

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 19 of 32 (In response to Chris Croughton)

Sent: 22 Jun 2000 23:37:08 GMT

Chris Croughton () wrote:

….: I don’t suppose anyone has equivalent software for Linux, or a protocol : specification? Not that I’m going to write it by the meeting even with : a spec….

I know that there is, but not what or where – a friend of mine is a Linux nut, and refuses to use anything but, yet is always logged into AIM and is fully capable of doing chat rooms. Unfortunately, this appears to be one of the few times that he’s logged off, so I can’t ask him what it is. I know he said at one point there there’s a Tcl(?) client version, for what it’s worth (web searches are your friends…. 🙂 )

I’ll see him tomorrow and ask him – I won’t be online again until at least Monday, though, so it won’t help for tonight or Saturday.

— Mike Shear

WPI ’02 EE grad student

MA EMT-B N1YQH(tech) WPI NRF Senior Reactor Operator

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From: BPRAL22169

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 20 of 32 (In response to Tony)

Sent: 23 Jun 2000 03:03:59 GMT

“Persistence of Vision”.

Yes, i do believe that was the name of the collection I was reading (also the name of a Hugo-winning story in the collection).

Bill

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From: AGplusone

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 21 of 32 (In response to Mike Shear)

Sent: 23 Jun 2000 05:55:21 GMT

Mike Shear answers Chris Croughton’s inquiry:

….I don’t suppose anyone has equivalent software for Linux, or a protocol : specification? Not that I’m going to write it by the meeting even with : a spec

I know that there is, but not what or where – a friend of mine is a Linux nut, and refuses to use anything but, yet is always logged into AIM and is fully capable of doing chat rooms….

snip

I know he said at one point there there’s a Tcl(?) client version, for what it’s worth [snip]

I’ll see him tomorrow and ask him

Please copy me on whatever you send from your friend. I won’t have a clue, but I’ve a hunch I’ll get this question again, perhaps by e mail.

Thanks Mike —

David M. Silver

“I expect your names to shine!”

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From: keris

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 22 of 32 (In response to Mike Shear)

Sent: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:53:40 -0700

(Mike Shear) wrote:

….I know that there is, but not what or where – a friend of mine is a Linux nut, and refuses to use anything but, yet is always logged into AIM and is fully capable of doing chat rooms. Unfortunately, this appears to be one of the few times that he’s logged off, so I can’t ask him what it is. I know he said at one point there there’s a Tcl(?) client version, for what it’s worth (web searches are your friends…. 🙂 )….

Having done some interesting searches, I’ve found EveryBuddy http://www.everybuddy.com/ (needs GTK and several other packages first), naim http://naim.n.ml.org/ (a ncurses version) and laim http://www.angelfire.com/biz/majutsu/laim.html (another ncurses version). I have no idea how any of them work (or even if they work with AOL’s recent changes) as I’m behind a firewall here at work…

…I’ll see him tomorrow and ask him – I won’t be online again until at least Monday, though, so it won’t help for tonight or Saturday….

OK, if he can say what he uses and if I get anything working I’ll post info as well, I can’t be the only person using a real O/S here (dons asbestos suit) …

(I don’t have a Windoze machine connected to a phone line at all; I used to run Win95 on the laptop but it’s not now.)

Chris C

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From: Wiz

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 23 of 32 (In response to Chris Croughton)

Sent: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 06:07:10 MDT

RE: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00 BY: (Chris Croughton)

….Place: On “AIM” software, see: http://www.aol.com/aim/home.html/ then register, download and install it. Notify us of your registered user name so we may expect and invite you into the room “Heinlein Readers Group.”

I don’t suppose anyone has equivalent software for Linux, or a protocol specification? Not that I’m going to write it by the meeting even with a spec…..

There is an AIM clone, but I don’t recall the name. Try everybuddy, which is a combo-clone of AIM, ICQ, Yahoo Messenger, etc.

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From: Gaeltach

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 24 of 32 (In response to Jani)

Sent: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:59:02 +1000

Jani wrote:

….Sounds like The Country of the Kind (Damon Knight, IIRC) The sighted character is blocked at every turn by the blind community, and ends up realising (just before he dies) that sightedness is not quite as superior an attribute as he first thought….

I’m sure the protagonist did not die at the end of the story, more filled with a sense of euphoria when all his senses were severed/withdrawn.

Sean, if this is not the one you were thinking of, I dare you to go to rasfw and post a story ID request. You will get your answer, but may be beaten up by the published authors and smart-alec trolls who reside there

Jani

Hmm…. sounds like fun, NOT! But it might come to that if the suggestions already given do not prove fruitful. About time I made another trip to my local library anyway. Joy!

Sean

P.S. Nice to see your smile again. *****************

….. and now for something completely different:

Er…. a dare? *****************

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From: c krin

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 25 of 32 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:27:01 GMT

On Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:53:37 -0400, ddavitt wrote:

…There are other blind people in Heinlein’s work; the head of the Academy in Space Cadet is one….

Nit pick as I have to work the ED tonight and won’t be able to log on…

I thought it was the Commandant of the Officer’s Academy of SsT that was blind, not the one from Space Cadets….

ck —

Charles S. Krin, DO FAAFP,Member,PGBFH,KC5EVN

Email address dump file for spam: reply to ckrin at Iamerica dot net F*S=k (Freedom times Security equals a constant: the more security you have, the less freedom! Niven’s Fourth Law)

——————————————————————————–

From: ddavitt

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 26 of 32 (In response to c krin)

Sent: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:16:44 -0400 c krin wrote: On Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:53:37 -0400, ddavitt wrote:

….There are other blind people in Heinlein’s work; the head of the Academy in Space Cadet is one. Nit pick as I have to work the ED tonight and won’t be able to log on… I thought it was the Commandant of the Officer’s Academy of SsT that was blind, not the one from Space Cadets…. ck–….

Nope; definitely the one from Space Cadet; ” And what distinguishes Commodore Arkwright?” “Uh, he’s blind, sir.”

“Not blind, Mr Dodson, not blind! It simply happens that he had his eyes burned out.”

Jane

[Editor’s Note: Colonel Nielssen, Commandant of OCS was in a wheel chair.]

——————————————————————————–

From: Wiz

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 27 of 32 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:33:25 MDT

RE: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00 BY: ddavitt

….I thought it was the Commandant of the Officer’s Academy of SsT that was blind, not the one from Space Cadets….

ck —

Nope; definitely the one from Space Cadet;

” And what distinguishes Commodore Arkwright?” “Uh, he’s blind, sir.” “Not blind, Mr Dodson, not blind! It simply happens that he had his eyes burned

In ST, it is Major Reid (H&MP instructor) who is blind.

“Roadkill on the Information Superhighway…” ToV WWIV 4.30 @971.Filenet Loveland, CO wiz {at} lart {dot} com Sprechen sie LART? TINLC (If there were, you couldn’t tell if I were part of it or not)

——————————————————————————–

From: AGplusone

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 28 of 32 (In response to ddavitt)

Sent: 24 Jun 2000 04:19:10 GMT

Jane wrote:

….Nope; definitely the one from Space Cadet;

” And what distinguishes Commodore Arkwright?” “Uh, he’s blind, sir.” “Not blind, Mr Dodson, not blind! It simply happens that he had his eyes burned out.”….

In the 1950 TV series “Tom Corbett, Space Cadet,” Commodore Arkwright was one of the few characters who remained after the rewriting using the same name as in _Space Cadet_. My memory is shot, although I recall seeing a few of the episodes. Does anyone elderly enough to have seen them, or the scripts, recall whether the Arkwright was portrayed in the TV series as also simply happening to have had “his eyes burned out”?

— David M. Silver

“I expect your names to shine!”

——————————————————————————–

From: Jon Patton Ogden II

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 29 of 32 (In response to AGplusone)

Sent: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:48:20 -0400

On the 24 Jun 2000 04:19:10 GMT, (AGplusone) told us all:

Jane wrote:

….Nope; definitely the one from Space Cadet;

” And what distinguishes Commodore Arkwright?” “Uh, he’s blind, sir.” “Not blind, Mr Dodson, not blind! It simply happens that he had his eyes burned out.”

In the 1950 TV series “Tom Corbett, Space Cadet,” Commodore Arkwright was one of the few characters who remained after the rewriting using the same name as in _Space Cadet_. My memory is shot, although I recall seeing a few of the episodes. Does anyone elderly enough to have seen them, or the scripts, recall whether the Arkwright was portrayed in the TV series as also simply happening to have had “his eyes burned out”?

I watched them religiously when they were being broadcast, but that was a lonnnng time ago. To the best of my recollection Arkwright was not blind in the series.

——————————————————————————–

From: Gaeltach

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 30 of 32 (In response to Jon Patton Ogden II)

Sent: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:56:47 +1000

Jon Patton Ogden II wrote:

….I watched them religiously when they were being broadcast, but that was a lonnnng time ago. To the best of my recollection Arkwright was not blind in the series…..

Not surprising really. How many “authority figure” roles on film or TV then (or now) were handicapped? I know there were a couple, just can’t remember. Hmm….. that lawyer guy?

Sean

***************

….. and now for something completely different:

Burr rub? ***************

——————————————————————————–

From: Michael Davis

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 31 of 32 (In response to Gaeltach)

Sent: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:06:18 GMT

“Gaeltach” wrote in message news:

Jon Patton Ogden II wrote:

….Not surprising really. How many “authority figure” roles on film or TV then (or now) were handicapped? I know there were a couple, just can’t remember. Hmm….. that lawyer guy?….

The series was named Ironsides after the character. Other than that, not many, but there is always Dr. Xavier from X-Men, who uses a wheel chair. The film is due out this summer in the states.

——————————————————————————–

From: Jim Gray

Topic: Re: RAH-AIM meeting notice, 6-22 & 24-00

Message: 32 of 32 (In response to Michael Davis)

Sent: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:16:37 -0400

Michael Davis wrote:

The series was named Ironsides after the character. Other than that, not many, but there is always Dr. Xavier from X-Men, who uses a wheel chair.

Or a flying hovercar, or can walk on his own legs…depending on who’s mangling continuity this month…

Jim

— “Sin is cruelty and injustice, all else is pecadillo. Oh, a sense of sin comes from violating the customs of your tribe. But breaking customs is not sin even when it feels so; sin is wronging another person.” -Robert A. Heinlein, “Glory Road”

Here is the beginning of the Discussion Group log

You have just entered room “Heinlein Readers Group.”

Silverdrake1 has entered the room.

ddavitt has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi there

Silverdrake1: hi

Bdelloguy has entered the room.

stephenveiss has entered the room.

siannon prime has entered the room.

siannon prime: It is 2 am already???

BookOworm has entered the room.

ddavitt: 🙂

siannon prime: I have to re-set my clocks

BookOworm: Hello… 🙂 Is David here?

stephenveiss: Muwaaaa? Here I am, hacking at the book exchange perl, and I get dragged into human interaction? This is scary! 🙂

ddavitt: Whcih David?

dwrighsr: Dave W is here, Haven’t seen sign of David silver yet.

Silverdrake1: What’s the occasion?

BookOworm: agplusone

siannon prime: Stephen, you have your clocks wrong as well 🙁

dwrighsr: Hi everyone

KultsiKN has entered the room.

dwrighsr: Did any of you try to open the room using the shortcut method?

stephenveiss: ?? What time is it?

siannon prime: Hiya Kultsi

ddavitt: Yes, as you know

ddavitt: Said chat wasn’t available

siannon prime: Stephen it’s early

KultsiKN: Hi all!

Merfilly8 has entered the room.

ddavitt: Hi Kultsi

stephenveiss: Hi, Kultsi!

BookOworm: I am working on the new reading groups website… do you know how you can SAVE these rooms on your computer?

ddavitt: And Filly…

Bdelloguy: Hi all….

siannon prime: Hiya Filly

dwrighsr: Jane, that’s odd. I’ve never had the problem..

ddavitt: We have an icon on the desktop for this one

BookOworm: By going into File and creating a shortcut…to your desktop

ddavitt: Nor me before. Worked fine on Thurs

BookOworm: Right…

KultsiKN: I, too have a shortcut, but somebody invited me…

BookOworm: We will also add a direct link from the new website…for the page we will create

siannon prime: I would have stayed sober if I knew I was meant to be here…

ddavitt: One of those things no doubt…

siannon prime: 🙂

ddavitt: Drunk in charge of a computer huh?

siannon prime: Drunk in charge of three children, is the worry!

Bdelloguy: Hair of the dog that byted you?

ddavitt: We’ll overlook any spelling mistakes…:-)

Merfilly8: Hi everyone. Was replying to an email from Don when I clicked in.

KultsiKN: Come on, give some slack… It’s Midsummer, after all…

siannon prime: Someone tell Bell the suituation…

ddavitt: If I can’t get drunk I don’t see why anyone else should!

siannon prime: That would be “situation”

stephenveiss: heh – the only difference in summer is that I code with hayfever and the window open 🙂

dwrighsr: I outlined another method on my web page if you don’t already have the shortcut Heinlein Link. I’m not going to be participating much, but I will be checking periodically and saving the log. Y’all have a good one.

Bdelloguy: As Wayne Newton would say, thanks!

ddavitt: I’ll be in and out too; David is fishing so I’m in sole charge of Eleanor.

BookOworm has left the room.

ddavitt: When will she learn how to get her own apple juice! 🙂

dwrighsr: If I appear to get dropped, please one of you save the log and e-mail me at the end of the discussion.

ddavitt: ( That and putting in videos is about all I’m needed for I think)

Merfilly8: there she goes with her mom-complaints 🙂

Silverdrake1: about the same time she learns to get into the Mr. Clean and Comet.

ddavitt: OK

siannon prime: Comet????That was tactless

Silverdrake1: Why?

ddavitt: They are a lot higher up than the fridge; actually she can get the juice out; just can’t get to her plastic cups

ddavitt: Cleaning stuff Jani

dwrighsr: AGPlusone usually does it, but he doesn’t appear to be here. BPRAL isn’t here yet either.

siannon prime: My ex worked for Comet. Now with PCworld

ddavitt: Don’t think they have that sort of Comet here

ddavitt: But we do have PC world

ddavitt: And Future Shop…

Silverdrake1: When my middle son was one-and-a-half, he’d figure out how to get things down from the top of the cabinets by tying a toy crab claw onto the end of the broom and using it as a waldo.

ddavitt: Cute!

stephenveiss: hehe

ddavitt: Kids are very ingeniuos

siannon prime: Sorry, Silv, that was knee-jerk 🙂

Silverdrake1: Not when it got his older brother punished because we didn’t believe him when he said his *baby* brother “made his arm long!”

ddavitt: Poor thing!

Silverdrake1: Yup. Then we actually caught the middle one in the act and the eldest gave us utter hell for the next year! :\

ddavitt: That sounds about right…

stephenveiss: hehehehe

siannon prime: I think S has read the stories, and i read Thurs log – is this a “heroes” discussion?

Silverdrake1: Growf?

Merfilly8: More or less.

stephenveiss: No, I dont think I’ve read them – lurk time, again 🙂

ddavitt: They don’t seem to be super heroes though…

Merfilly8: Searchlight, Ordeal in Space, The Green Hills of Earth

KultsiKN: For once, I’ve read the stories.

stephenveiss: nope, nope, nope 🙂

ddavitt: Especially not in Serachlight

KultsiKN: Not?

ddavitt: Rhysling and Bill are just doing their job…

Merfilly8: Searchlight was amazing for its brevity and plot completeness

Silverdrake1: Ordeal…. That the one with the severe agoraphobia who has to save the kitten?

ddavitt: Yes

siannon prime: K, I will go for female baby-bearing heroes, and argue that RAH if inclined towards masculine military heroes. Just to start us off 🙂

siannon prime: that was “is” btw

ddavitt: Well the Patrol was stag so not much chance for women heroines

siannon prime: Point one…

Silverdrake1: Hazel Meade Stone. Military *and* baby-bearing

ddavitt: Have to remember who he was writing for; not many girl SF readers then ( supposedly)

siannon prime: Not feminine female

Merfilly8: Hazel was a fave of mine

siannon prime: Filly, come in on this one

Silverdrake1: Oh, really. And just what do you define as “feminine?” :p

ddavitt: I liked her best in RS; not the same at all in Cat

ddavitt: Gwen was generic; Hazel was unique

Merfilly8: ok, feminine female heroine….liked Hazel’s intrusion in NOTB

Silverdrake1: 😉

siannon prime: Ah, well… I’m just sitting behind the desk :-). What’s you def?

siannon prime: your, sorry

Merfilly8: Tamara

ddavitt: Soon changed her mind about not wanting to be young though 😉

Silverdrake1: feminine is that which is female as differentiated from that which is male

siannon prime: Old tart, won’t do

Merfilly8: she’s that behind the scenes, keep the heroes sane heroine

siannon prime: Yeah, wotta wimp

pakgwei has entered the room.

ddavitt: Tamara couldn’t learn English; made her seem more human after all those geniuses!

ddavitt: Hi pakgwei

pakgwei: hello

siannon prime: Language is irrelevant when you have empathy

Silverdrake1: Heh

ddavitt: Probably 🙂

Merfilly8: I like Deety. She is that child-woman-genius

ddavitt: With her inbuilt clock….

ddavitt: Heinlein was tongue in cheek with her I think

TAWN3 has entered the room.

Silverdrake1: But a bit of a wuss. Anyone who would let themselves be bullied by a cat….! 😉

ddavitt: Who was bullied by a cat?

TAWN3: Hi all

ddavitt: Hi Tawn

Silverdrake1: After all, everyone knows that the way to deal with a cat is to be a cat. 😉

siannon prime: Hi Tawn

TAWN3: Hi Jani, Jane

Silverdrake1: Deety allowed herself to be dictated to by the Glass Cat(?) during the dinner party in Oz

Gaeltachta has entered the room.

AGplusone has entered the room.

ddavitt: I’m trying to think of something to say I didn’t say on Thursday!

siannon prime: Pologies for not being on IM, Tawn, bad coupla days

TAWN3: ok

siannon prime: Hi Sean

Gaeltachta: Good mornin’

ddavitt: Oh that cat……..Eureka

TAWN3: hope they get better for you!

ddavitt: Well, she was a guest in Oz; just being polite no doubt

TAWN3: Top of ‘e day to you Sean

Gaeltachta: *yawn*

Silverdrake1: Um, excuse me. “Princess Deety” was a ‘guest’ in Oz?!?!?!?

ddavitt: What time is it Sean?

Merfilly8: Ok, this chat is to get my blood pressure down to reasonable levels.

ddavitt: Well, you know what I mean…

Gaeltachta: Just after 7am

ddavitt: eek!

Silverdrake1: 1517, here

Gaeltachta: on Sunday!

ddavitt: 5.13

ddavitt: pm, Sat

Silverdrake1: ditto

Merfilly8: Between an idiot on a NG, and my baby taking a fall today, I’m a nervous wreck

ddavitt: Obvoiusly one of us needs to adjust our computer clock!\

ddavitt: Is baby OK?

Silverdrake1: *comf* filly

ddavitt: Ignore the idiot; not worth bothering with trolls

Silverdrake1: ‘puter clock matches. was reading watch

Merfilly8: Yeah. Scared her when I burst into tears, Ebon was holding her and crying, and her sister burst into tears because we were crying

Gaeltachta: Good advice Jane, but hard to do sometimes.

ddavitt: Prob me; sometimes our computer clock stops…most strange.

siannon prime: Anyone want to tell Tawn (scuse me, I’ll do this private)

ddavitt: Tell me about it 🙂

Merfilly8: Fell from a changing table as we mommies were changing who was with her. Felt horrible, but she turned, landed on her bum, and bounced

Silverdrake1: I think I have the Naval Observatory link for universal time, if you want it.

ddavitt: I am hardened to it now but those first few falls are nerve racking; especially if there’s blood

ddavitt: I never had one; always used a mat on the floor; nowhere to fall to

Merfilly8: no blood, a little raspberry from the carpet on her head, but it did not hit til the bounce

ddavitt: Hell on mum;s back though!

ddavitt: Link would be good thansk

Silverdrake1: poor baby. Give lots of kisses, of course. 🙂

Silverdrake1: Okie. just a sec………..

Merfilly8: she’s been spoiled all day by me

KultsiKN: AGplusone is having troubles in getting in… somebody on AOL pls try inviting him…

pakgwei: ag is in

ddavitt: It says he’s here for me; strange…

KultsiKN: My invitation does not work…

KultsiKN: According to David he’s not!

ddavitt: I invited ; said he was here already!

pakgwei: AGplusone has entered the room.

ddavitt: Are you here david?

Merfilly8: I just told him to try logging out, and back in

AGplusone has left the room.

Merfilly8: must have worked to remove his ghost

Merfilly8: that used to happen on IRC

KultsiKN: I asked him to log off and on…

ddavitt: Saw Galaxy Quest last night; very funny! Is it out on video in UK yet?

Merfilly8: I sent him an invite, just in case

Merfilly8: Quest>Tim Allen?

AGplusone has entered the room.

AGplusone: Thanks everyone.

ddavitt: Yes and Alan Rickman, Sigourney Weaver

ddavitt: Hilarious!

ddavitt: Hi David

Merfilly8: The Sheriff of Nottingham!

ddavitt: 🙂

Merfilly8: and Ripley, with Tim the Tool Man

Merfilly8: hey David

AGplusone: Hi, Ag+1, Drake.

Gaeltachta: Star Trek should sue 🙂

ddavitt: Funniest casting was Jordie from ST Geordie?

ddavitt: Real irony having him in it!

Merfilly8: Why? They had the Trekkies docufilm come out that year

AGplusone: Can’t, it’s a parody. Fair use.

Gaeltachta: I loved it!

Merfilly8: That is how the porn company got away with their rip offs of ST

ddavitt: Plus it was respectful

AGplusone: So did I!

ddavitt: Adressed a lot of the issues….loved the young kids who helped out

Silverdrake1: Say, anyone else want the link to US Naval Observatory Universal Time page, while I have it handy?

ddavitt: I suppose we should start in on the stories though

AGplusone: No, the porn company (if you mean Verhoeven) bought the rights to ST (if you mean Troopers) from Virginia, by showing her a “treatment” not a script, that they thereafter totally ignored, Filly.

ddavitt: I seem to be 2 mins out; I’ll adjust it later, thanks

ddavitt: Nice one David!

Merfilly8: no, I was referring to Star Trek

Merfilly8: silly

Merfilly8: ;-)~

Silverdrake1: Oh, but you gotta admit, that was soooooooo good! 😉

Merfilly8: yeah it was

ddavitt: Is that a line from the porn film? 😉

KultsiKN: The porn?

Silverdrake1: [snicker]

AGplusone: ‘spose so … JGifford says Green Hills” has been set to music “several” times in his Reader’s Companion, anyone know of where the misci of ‘sveral’ times might be found?

Merfilly8: Besides… I like Starship Troopers, the movie. It just is not Robert A Heinlein’s book

Silverdrake1: porn movies series “Sex Trek” Very funny.

ddavitt: You sent me one once didn’t you david?

AGplusone: music … several ….

ddavitt: I assumed filksingers had done it.

Silverdrake1: The movie was typical Vorhoeven fascist BS

ddavitt: Like the ones in Bimbos ( if I can mention that here)

AGplusone: Yes, one my daughter’s friend brought back from a ‘filk’ she attended.

Merfilly8: I ignore the underlying message and just watch the action. It’s eye candy for me

ddavitt: But such a waste of a Heinlein book

Merfilly8: Agreed

Merfilly8: I agreed with Ronin? about Aliens being in the spirit of the book more so than Verhoeven’s crap

ddavitt: How did Jim find out about that hymn in Ordeal being sung?

KultsiKN: David, is it written music or a tape?

ddavitt: Never got onto that on Thursday…

AGplusone: Actually, it was at the Rennaisance Pleasure Fair, which is medieval, in Orange Cty, California. I found it intersting that they’d be singing it at a fair where they walk around wearing pointy hats. My is sheet music.

Silverdrake1: But had so many Hollyweird cliches it made me wince, then add in all the Vorhoeven stupidity. Ugh. The CGFX were the only good thing about it!

ddavitt: The assumption is that H knew about it to use the name Colin Campbell later…

AGplusone: I think I sent a scan to Jane, and someone else.

ddavitt: I never realsied H had written the extra verse himself

Silverdrake1: Hymn in Ordeal?

TAWN3: Music, GHOE, called Filking, fandoom songs

KultsiKN: Have you still got the scan handy?

ddavitt: The one that gets Bill all teary eyed at his friend’s house

ddavitt: Prayer for Travellers

ddavitt: “Hear us when we pray to thee/For those in peril on the sea

AGplusone: He said he was at the church ceremony and asked about it. Perhaps someone told him about it. He’s got some correspondence with some of the shuttle crews he refers to elsewhere

Silverdrake1: Thanks. was driving me nuts. Hubby was quoting it just last week and couldn’t remember the title, either! 🙂

ddavitt: Extra verse added by H for space travellers

Merfilly8: It looked familiar to me the first time I read it. I put it down to the fact I sang choir for so many years

ddavitt: I knew H didn’t invent the whole thing….

Silverdrake1: I always figured he’d written the space verse.

AGplusone: It’s been in many movies … and in the CBS “Victory at Sea”

ddavitt: Nice to think of his verse actually being used in church

Silverdrake1: Really haunting tune

Silverdrake1: Yup, that would be cool

AGplusone: I argee, Ag+1drake

Silverdrake1: Or was it used, already?

ddavitt: Some hymns count as poetry to me; very haunting, even without the music

ddavitt: Yes, that’s what I was saying ( not v well)

AGplusone: The one they actually sing, without the space verse is traditional at the funeral of a sailor

Silverdrake1: It was actually used……..? 🙂

ddavitt: I wanted Jim to do a post on it but he didn’t get chance

ddavitt: He mentions it in ARC

Silverdrake1: Hey, I’m new here and don’t pick up on the acronyms very well. 🙁

Silverdrake1: ARC?

siannon prime: Hi, I’m back – talking to Tawn, sorry … Tawn will be back too, any minute

ddavitt: Oops, sorry; Jim Gifford’s new book about Heinlein; A Readers Companion

Silverdrake1: Thanks

ddavitt: Verse sung at a service during the flight of Apollo XVI according to Jim

AGplusone: Yes, with the space verse. At a ceremony conducted by NASA (or somebody)

ddavitt: Rev Colin Campbell

Silverdrake1: Oh, WAY COOL! :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)

ddavitt: Who of course, is herpo of Cat Who Walks

ddavitt: Hero!!!

Silverdrake1: Heh

Merfilly8: the herpo

Silverdrake1: LOL

Merfilly8: the snake…almost apt

ddavitt: Fingers freezing up !:-)

Silverdrake1: rofl

Merfilly8: because his personalities through that book could be seen as shedding skins

siannon prime: Why is herpes named after snakes?

Nitropress has entered the room.

AGplusone: Colin’s not too snaky … more like Honey Bun

Merfilly8: snakes associated with fertility cults

ddavitt: A fortuitous finger slip then….

Gaeltachta: Can anyone think of a maritime example similar to “Ordeal”? I guess plenty of sailors have conquered fears of the ocean and drowning?

Silverdrake1: Yeah. Sure. We believe you…….

siannon prime: Oops. I think I just worked that our for myself

Nitropress: Hay-low. Busy at the moment but I’ll stay plugged in and be back in a bit…

ddavitt: Plus Worm of Ourobous

Merfilly8: V.D. diseases of Venus, Venus a fertiltiy goddess

TAWN3: I’m back, got a bite to eat

KultsiKN: In Cat there is indication that Colin is quite a bit, ‘snakewise’…

TAWN3: But been here all along actually 🙂

Nitropress: I just pay to eat. 🙂

ddavitt: Jim, I just stole your lines and told them about the hymn in Ordeal! You are three mins late!

siannon prime: Venus is not exactly snaky, Filly …

Nitropress: [FX crawling, begging forgiveness]

Merfilly8: just has fierce fairies

Silverdrake1: :p

Merfilly8: that Poddy is willing to die for

ddavitt: Hmm….Ok, forgiven !:-)

siannon prime: But no Freudian symbolism

ddavitt: Whitesnake….

Merfilly8: I’m no Fraudian

Silverdrake1: Poddy was a moron

ddavitt: never realsied about that for ages

Merfilly8: Tawny Kitain

siannon prime: Poddy is ok

ddavitt: tarty Kitten

Silverdrake1: twit

Silverdrake1: silly nit

AGplusone: Ron Harrison was talking about some of the things sailors are trained to do as a matter of course at sea under harsh conditions … some of the description in C.S.Forrester of O’Brian might qualify easily.

Silverdrake1: with a bad case of little brother envy

siannon prime: Trainee real empathist

Gaeltachta: Thanks David. Gilligan too.

siannon prime: Jealous lot, aren’t you!

ddavitt: Never got into O Brien; love Hornblower books tho

ddavitt: Of Tawny? Nah!

AGplusone: Imagine going aloft to get the canvas in under conditions of gale after a fall ….

Merfilly8: The closest I came to Hornblower was reading about him in various Star Trek novels

ddavitt: What’s she got I didn’t have 15 years ago?

siannon prime: No, of Pod. Everyone is …

TAWN3: What ever happened to Tawny Kitain? The last time I saw her was on a Howard Stern parody of the CCn interveiwer with 8 wives or so, Larry King?

AGplusone: that somehow didn’t kill you.

Silverdrake1: Haven’t read any of them, but heard a lot of discussion of them in comparison to David Weber’s Honor Harrington series.

siannon prime: And of JE …

ddavitt: ( You’ll have to take my word on that :-D)

siannon prime: Neat smiley!

ddavitt: Keep meaning to try them

AGplusone: Jim, did you actaully read “Atlantis”?

ddavitt: Click on the smiley face next to “link” for more

Nitropress: Yes.

Gaeltachta: Good analogy David. But what about just fear of the sea?

Merfilly8: Joan Eunice inspires no jealousy in me

Merfilly8: nor Poddy

ddavitt: Nor me

ddavitt: Can’t think of one who does….Caroline maybe

ddavitt: She’s cool!

Merfilly8: I envy Libby, maybe

AGplusone: fear of falling … the fall usually kills you before you drown.

ddavitt: Too wishy washy

AGplusone: Is it a eulogy to his sister, Jim?

ddavitt: Why did H make him a her?

Nitropress: Hmm. Don’t recall it well enough… but I don’t think so.

siannon prime: Pod and JE are about the only female females RAH had on offer. They took on the whole of maledom and fought it on its own terms.

Merfilly8: Fear of Falling, or why I wake out of a sound sleep to be sure the bed is under me still

Gaeltachta: I’m trying to tie in space with water – perhaps being in the water for a long time?

Nitropress: It’s an odd little scrap. Probably doesn’t belong in the NHOL.

Merfilly8: You don’t see the older Maureen as fighting that fight?

Merfilly8: What about Ishtar?

AGplusone: Sure it does … first efforts. May have convinced him he wanted to write some day.

siannon prime: No, I hate Maureen as a character

Nitropress: As I wrote, I tended to err on the side of including things.

ddavitt: That’s abetter than missing out stuff that later turns out to be significant

siannon prime: MInerva, maybe. But mostly the empathic females. Jill, for eg

Merfilly8: I liked all of Jubal’s ladies

Nitropress: That was my thinking. Had a scare right near the end, though, when I thought I’d missed a significant piece, with the book in press.

Silverdrake1: I thought leaving Friday sterile was just mean.

Merfilly8: But then I like Jubal better than most of his ‘old men’ characters

ddavitt: Later women seemed generic though; as I said earlier, Gwen was a shadow compared to Grandmother Hazel

siannon prime: So did he But where did they go afterwards?

ddavitt: What bit was that?

TAWN3: Why mean Siver? It was written during the height of feminism. Shouldn’t that make her “liberated”?

TAWN3: (Trying not to get political.)

AGplusone: I once wrote a bit of doggeral … people said they ‘liked it’ and somebody put it in a yearbook as the lead-off. I filed that fact away, never wote anything else for thirty years, b ut am trying to write now. Not that I’ll ever get anything published of course …. but it’s fun to try.

ddavitt: Taking away a choice can never be liberating

Silverdrake1: since when did RAH play to PC?

Merfilly8: not that I can think of

Nitropress: Never, since it was invented several years after he died.

siannon prime: Beyond PC, Silv.

ddavitt: Don’t be negative David….never know.

Gaeltachta: I’ll read it David 🙂

Merfilly8: David, please don’t be pessimistic on being published

siannon prime: PC exists, doesn’t have to labelled to be there

AGplusone: Are they ‘generic’ (Hazel, Sharpie, and Maureen) or are they simply an embodiment of a combination of charactrers RAH liked in women.

Nitropress: It’s all too easy sometimes. 🙂

siannon prime: to be

Silverdrake1: Well, if Friday had *not* been left sterile, then I’d say she was my ideal female.

ddavitt: Have you written for the Journal?

Merfilly8: I wanted Linda Hamilton to play her right after T2 had come out

TAWN3: True jani, word came after the concept

siannon prime: So your perfect woman is fertile? Tough on your girlfriends, then

Merfilly8: That’s the logical pattern Tawn

Silverdrake1: That would have been good casting.

Merfilly8: 🙂

AGplusone: (and Sister Magdalene, and Marga?)

TAWN3: 🙂

ddavitt: Too secure for Friday maybe..

Silverdrake1: Why would that be tough on my girlfriends?

ddavitt: Julia Roberts perhaps….

siannon prime: We are all, by your definitio, imperfect, then. Unless, we’re Maureen

TAWN3: ! But then on second thought, maybe Julia Roberts COULD do Friday.

Merfilly8: Aren’t we due a casting thread on AFH?

siannon prime: I think I said that on the ng, Tawn… ages ago …

Silverdrake1: Not sure if she could do the fighting properly. She doesn’t move right for it

AGplusone: (Criticism and journals don’t count. I’ve published review articles in professional journals. That’s work, or communication. I’m talking ‘art’)

TAWN3: I think the French actress who played La Femme Nikita might make a good Friday. The French original movie, not the US knock offs.

siannon prime: What “was” the official topic here?

siannon prime: 🙂

Merfilly8: Still writing daily, and no manuscript in sight, David. But I still believe I will in time

Silverdrake1: Oh, wow. Yes.

ddavitt: Topic? We don’t need no…oh, maybe we do 🙂

Silverdrake1: Heh

Silverdrake1: We were talking about heroes.

Silverdrake1: We still are

Gaeltachta: Bridget Fonda? The girl in the Matrix? The girl in the 5th Element? Geena Davis?

TAWN3: Topic? We don’t need no stink’in topic.

ddavitt: They DO SO count! ( That’s all I’ve ever had in print after all) 🙂

pakgwei: Milla Jovovitch

Merfilly8: Searchlight, Ordeal in Space, The Green Hills of Earth

siannon prime: Information, was that, Jane? Bit of a PF moment?

Gaeltachta: That’s her!

AGplusone: The ‘offical’ topic are the stories GHOE, Ordeal, and Searchlight. anyone like to specify one aspect of any of them to discuss?

ddavitt: I’ve come to the conclusion fiction is too hard….

Merfilly8: I love Milla! She would be great!

Gaeltachta: Joan of Arc as well.

ddavitt: What’s PF?

siannon prime: I’m working on Jane’s bricks in the wall 🙂

Merfilly8: Pink Floyd!

ddavitt: Oh, Floyd…

siannon prime: Pink Floyd, ya wimpy rocker 🙂

TAWN3: All in all we’re just another….

Silverdrake1: Ugh!

Merfilly8: We don’t need no…

ddavitt: As i said when you arrived AG, I’m all talked out from Thursday…

AGplusone: Must not be the Floyd I know. He’s gray.

TAWN3: I always liked Thick as a Brick (Tull).

ddavitt: Trying hard to think of something else to say…

siannon prime: Filks welcome

Merfilly8: I can’t filk

Merfilly8: 🙁

Silverdrake1: Anyone heard Stasheff’s “St. Vidicon’s Hymn?”

KultsiKN: I’d like to chat a bit about the singing laser, if you don’t mind…. Too bad we haven’t got Mike on…

siannon prime: Does anyone else notice that I seem to have more Loki about me in the last few days?

siannon prime: It is not deliberate…

Silverdrake1: Well, if you want to keep it lo ki, that’s fine with us. 😉

ddavitt: brb; have to start taping Franklin…..

AGplusone: There’s a portrait in Ordeal, the brother in law, that we might look to other works at about the same time and see whether we see his like.

siannon prime: neat one, silv!

Silverdrake1: I mean, we wouldn’t want to think we might have freyed your nerves, y’know.

AGplusone: People did claim RAH an Americanism chauvinistabout some things. True, or false?

Merfilly8: Mycroft Holmes sadi a laser can be rigged to whistle

Merfilly8: said

TAWN3: Yes David, in it/s Graeat to be Back.

TAWN3: IGTBB

TAWN3: IGtbB?

Silverdrake1: Oh, yeah. Like the French aren’t Franco-chauvanists about anything. B. S.

TAWN3: Oh ish, the French, they don’t bathe. LOL

Silverdrake1: Or the Japanese aren’t Nippo-chauvanists.

ddavitt: I’m back…

siannon prime: Graea to be back would have impressed Silv .. ok, I will now get my coat …

Silverdrake1: Heh

AGplusone: Really? The one who shoots off his ignorance about the Martians at dinner? Or someone in the village that you’re comparing with him from IGTBB

KultsiKN: I don’t doubt a laser can whistle — with enough energy to heat the air molecules…

Merfilly8: Yeah I know, Kultsi, it’s improbable to my way of thinking

ddavitt: Know it all abit like Nebbi (?) from Glory Road…

siannon prime: Puns done, going now. G’night all. Sorry for the sillies

siannon prime has left the room.

TAWN3: Yes, the Brother in law is in Ordeal IIRC, the stupid dirtsiders are in IGtbB

ddavitt: See you soon jani

AGplusone: I always thought that Heinlein was very anti-colonial from side remarks he made in Glory Rd about “little brown brother’ etc., among others.

ddavitt: People in a goldfish bowl talking down to sea fish…

KultsiKN: What bothered me in ‘Searchlight’ was the way of modulating the signal.

AGplusone: snide side remarks

Silverdrake1: Which was?

ddavitt: Too many threads! I’m all confused

Silverdrake1: What was modulation method?

Merfilly8: explain Kultsi

Merfilly8:

ddavitt: Hi back

KultsiKN: An audio signal modulating a radio signal modulating the laser.

ddavitt: Some of the remarks in Grumbles come across that way…

AGplusone: I wondered how it was done … play a beam from a ship and as you move it change the tone?

Silverdrake1: Hmm. Been too long since I read it. Don’t remember any specifics.

ddavitt: something about the tempting “chocolate items” made my eyebrows lift….

KultsiKN: The radio signal part is, IMO, one step too many.

ddavitt: Implied infidelity…..surprised me…..

Merfilly8: Because of the short-short format, we didn’t get the tech side of what they were doing

AGplusone: frequency of the tone? Why ‘one step too many’?

Gaeltachta: I thought the method in Searchlight sounded complicated, Surely there was an easier way to track a radio signal from Betsy?

Merfilly8: Maybe he was just looking

AGplusone: Think you’re right Filly

ddavitt: Oh he was …but ….

TAWN3: what infidelity?

Merfilly8: If a man ain’t looking, he’s dead

Silverdrake1: Thought they were broadcasting to her and waiting for her to id the note?

ddavitt: Could be read that if he hadn’t been chaperoned, maybe, who knows?

Merfilly8: I agree with the many RAH refs to this

ddavitt: ,shrug> maybe just men talk

Merfilly8: But if in contact with her, they should have been able to somehow find her signal

KultsiKN: If the laser was pulse width modulated with sound, it would play back thru the helmet (warming & cooling).

ddavitt: It’s OK if _I _ look, but not if David does

Merfilly8: If Ebon or Kev looks, at least I know they are still human

KultsiKN: There is not way to detect a radio signal with just the helmet.

AGplusone: He explained there wasn’t an effective way to triangulate.. I thought it clever. Not digital, but 88-tone analogue particularly suited to the object of the seach. Someone thinking outside the box!

Merfilly8: true, David

Silverdrake1: Hey, if the hubby don’t look, bury him. If he does look, then stays at your side, then strut proud, girl!

ddavitt: Can anyone think of any other ways they could’ve found her? Stupidity of sending men out to “search” moon ( on foot?) is mind boggling…

Merfilly8: She was using the radio. Moon would have to have relay points for commo, I would think

Gaeltachta: Rescue beacon should have been activated in ship.

AGplusone: And I suspect that Hoffman could have whipped together a transmitter pretty quckly that could be made to send only 88 tones.

TAWN3: I thought about that too David, he never developed the idea of arriving at the tones. Definitely outside the box.

KultsiKN: The method itself was very clever, but would require very precise aiming of the beam.

TAWN3: Rescue beacon apparently down (destroyed in crash).

AGplusone: Some very smart technician who played the piano.

Gaeltachta: Oh…Ok then.

ddavitt: They should’ve been able to narrow the area down a bit from expected flight path?

Merfilly8: agreed Jane

KultsiKN: The path went astray; that was the first thing.

Merfilly8: The story seems weak…but I admire it for the brevity with which RAH told a complete story

AGplusone: How large an area is half the surface of the Moon.

ddavitt: 15 million square miles

TAWN3: About one half the size of the moon I would say David.

Merfilly8: Only so many mathematical courses, based on fuel, beginning vector, last known vector, etc

ddavitt: is mentioned; divide by 2?

KultsiKN: With all those nooks and crannies — _very_ large.

ddavitt: Pretty big with the time constraints of lack of oxygen

ddavitt: Don’t suppose there was much spare air on borad for a routine quick jump

Merfilly8: that was stated, I think

KultsiKN: There was a time limit, don’t remember figures.

ddavitt: 6 hours of air in suits

AGplusone: Enormous … and then go 1/88 x 88 x 88 to see how quick it gets down. I suppose someone checked the figures.

Gaeltachta: Wasn’t there a quiz once about the most important things you should have with you if you crashed on the moon. Apart from oxygen, I think a radio was second.

TAWN3: Hell, she’s blind, not from the Moon, if there were fifteen canisters of air they may have done her no good.

ddavitt: Don’t know if the ship had any or if they travelled suited up

KultsiKN: SOP

ddavitt: She was bright enough to figure it out maybe…

AGplusone: I think what training is in the space between your ears might be the most important.

ddavitt: As i said though, making her blind wasn’t necessary for the piano gimmick to work; just to make itt more poignant

AGplusone: And that I think is one thing that all the FH stories reflect. Mindset.

KultsiKN: That’s actually what the story is all about.

ddavitt: She was brave and a survivor type; her disabilty may have fostered that quality in her i suppose…

Gaeltachta: Betsy sounds like Shirley Temple. Was she the basis? Did ST play a blind girl once?

ddavitt: She does a bit….don’t know

KultsiKN: Her being blind, she could not possibly guestimate their position by heavenly bodies.

Merfilly8: Yes she did…Ebon

AGplusone: If you compare the ‘mindset’ of Rhysling and the people who effect the rescue and the fellow who saves the kitten and the blind girlthey all have that in common.

AGplusone: Unfaappable.

ddavitt: Notice the reference to the USO?

AGplusone: flapable

ddavitt: What does that stand for exactly?

AGplusone: Jim, btw, do you know the definition of “Risling”?

Merfilly8: United Service Organization?

Merfilly8: Servicemen, I think

ddavitt: Is it multi nation? Or US?

Nitropress: Being risible?

ddavitt: This is quite a US story for the FH; President and everything

ddavitt: Not a world govt one

Gaeltachta: A small “rise”?

ddavitt: Has the men in a station on the other side of moon as well

AGplusone: No, it’s a male horse who is turned into a gelding after maturity. Cf. Mary Sperling.

TAWN3: I thought a Risling was a traitor, like a Benedict Sarnold, from German recent history.

Nitropress: Quisling.

ddavitt: Quisling

Nitropress: Ha ha, beat you.

Merfilly8: great minds…

ddavitt: Only just!!!

Merfilly8: what year was Searchlight written?

ddavitt: What’s the Mary bit David?

TAWN3: Ah

KultsiKN: Very quick, both of ya.

Nitropress: Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, lawn darts and atom bombs.

ddavitt: 1962

AGplusone: Old usage … I can’t find it in a current dictionary.

AGplusone: Tell ’em Jim.

Nitropress: Lemme check RH2ED…

ddavitt: And shaving….

AGplusone: Read it in an old book about horses when I was a kid.

ddavitt: Amazing how much triv the mind can hold and throw up when needed

Nitropress: Nope. Not in RH2ED. Probably OED, but I don’t have a copy.

AGplusone: H, in a place where they bred mules, might know it well

ddavitt: But how does Mary Sperling come into it?

Nitropress: In the magazine serial, her name is Mary Risling.

AGplusone: Another little nugget in ARC

ddavitt: Ah…yes, i do remember that now you mention it

Nitropress: ARC Nuggets(tm). Kind of like Chicken McNuggets, only tastier. 🙂

Merfilly8: She was gelded by becoming one of the aliens, in a way

ddavitt: Can I have ketchup with that?

Merfilly8: gelded spiritually

Nitropress: Yes– interesting bit.

AGplusone: Delicious! Uh-huh, my point, Jane.

ddavitt: true Filly; lost her ID

Nitropress: So they wouldn’t let her in?

ddavitt:

AGplusone: Another one of RAH’s rotten names!

ddavitt: Would anyone here have taken mary’s route to immortality?

Merfilly8: NO!

Merfilly8: I love being an individual

ddavitt: It horrified LL…

AGplusone: It horrifies me … the Borg!

Nitropress: As does all routes to immortality that lose the self in the group mind.

ddavitt: But she was about to die in a nasty way; sudden onset of senility…pre rejuve tachniques remember

Merfilly8: Then go out like a human being!

Merfilly8: that would be my choice

ddavitt: If she’s hung on….she would’ve been able to take advantage of the new tech but she didn’t know that

Silverdrake1: Wasn’t hers, tho’

ddavitt: She was a bit of a pioneer in a way

Merfilly8: I don’t want immortality…it would get boring. But give me two or three centuries, with a hearty body and mind

AGplusone: Lie in a bath like Petronius the Arbiter, and drink wine, admire women, sing songs, and slit your wrists.

Silverdrake1: Plus, you could look at it in the light of the fact that she tied that race to humanity with a common link

TAWN3: Is Mary Spelling the one in MC? Now I remember.

Nitropress: Live forever, or die trying.

ddavitt: Agreed…I don’t know how Laz kept going; almost 24 centuries? No way!

ddavitt: Losing people over and over…

AGplusone: And frost Nero’s butt!

Silverdrake1: Always a new frontier to explore

Nitropress: They captured that nicely in “Highlander,” I thought.

AGplusone: Spit in his face.

TAWN3: Yes

TAWN3: I was going to say that

Gaeltachta: Ther can be only ONE!

TAWN3: Methos, the 5,ooo year old man

Nitropress: And I’m it. 🙂

Silverdrake1: Could even see doing it while stuck on one planet. Think of all the things there are to study and learn.

Silverdrake1: New discoveries to make

TAWN3: One of my all time favoriet shows, up there wityh The Prisoner and STNG and Bab5

Silverdrake1: Methos……….! [drooool!] 😉

Nitropress: Actually, it’s “Theh cah be ohny wahn!” (Sorry, I hate Lambert’s accent.)

ddavitt: I’d certainly like longer than 80 good years

AGplusone: (actually, I’m “Sandy” who Laz will meet one day)

Nitropress: Which barely appears to be human sometimes.

ddavitt: LOL!

Silverdrake1: I got all six seasons on video tape! #

Silverdrake1: 😉

TAWN3: with I Spy the Original Outer Limits as the fifth and sixth in my “top 5”.

ddavitt: But Highlander is nowhere near as old as Lazarus

KultsiKN: Huh! There’s more than the movies?

Gaeltachta: Lambert sounds like Peter Lorre 🙂

TAWN3: I Spy AND the original OL.

Nitropress: Ooh! Ooh! “It’s About Time!”

Merfilly8: A tv show that disregards much of the movies

Nitropress: 🙂

Silverdrake1: You never saw the series at all?

ddavitt: Don’t you get the series in Finland Kultsi?

ddavitt: Cute lead….

Silverdrake1: Oooooooh, yeah!

AGplusone: That was one thing I found fascinating in Miller’s original novel … what was it called? The appearance of the WJ.

Silverdrake1: But I like Methos, better. 😉

Nitropress: Lambert sounds like a dog that was taught speech.

Silverdrake1: WJ?

ddavitt: I’d have him but his lady friends all seem to die….

KultsiKN: We get the _serious_ series around here… I con’t watch TV…

Gaeltachta: Astro?

Silverdrake1: Hubby refers to him as “the frog”

Nitropress: Woof!

AGplusone: Canticle for Leibowitz … the Wandering Jew.

TAWN3: I have first five seasons on video tape, (from TV) eventually I want the Euro editions (more scenes) on DVD

Silverdrake1: Ah

Gaeltachta: Herro Reorge!

Bdelloguy has left the room.

Nitropress: Now I have “Jetsons” sound effects bopping around my head. Thank you too much.

Silverdrake1: Hang on a sec. May have URL for catalog site…..

Gaeltachta: 🙂

AGplusone: Who Laz thinks he runs across …. as “Sandy” in TEFL

Merfilly8: Methos grew out of first season’s Darius

ddavitt: We’re just not going to do the stories are we?

Merfilly8: but that actor died, so they had to rewrite him

Nitropress: What’s a Methos? Isn’t that a mint?

Merfilly8: lol

Gaeltachta: Menthos

Silverdrake1: The *actor* died?!?!?!

TAWN3: They were always killing the great characters off, Darius was great,

TAWN3: And the Who guy

Silverdrake1: Fitz

Merfilly8: Darius was not supposed to be killed, though

TAWN3: Roger Daltry

KultsiKN: Oh no! Now _that_ reminds me of a dirty piece of MPG… Menthos, that is.

Nitropress: Watch your mouth.

Silverdrake1: Hubby’s favorite character.

Merfilly8: I missed St. Cloud

Merfilly8: The guy from the Fine Young Cannibals

Silverdrake1: He was a good villain

TAWN3: Darius the actor died?

Nitropress: Calllll for RRRRRobbberrrrt HEEEEEINNNNNlein!

Bdelloguy has entered the room.

Bdelloguy has left the room.

Merfilly8: had high popularity

AGplusone: Query? If Miller’s Canticle for Leibowitz was a best-seller, as I’ve been told, didn’t it come before SiaSL?

Merfilly8: revolving door syndrome

Nitropress: Yes, mid 1950’s.

TAWN3: Then how did they tape that part? I will have to rewatch it and see. I thought he confronted the sick bastards in church

TAWN3: or, they confronted him I should say

TAWN3: I wish they would have made a sequel with Methos, instead of the horrible one with Amanda

TAWN3: (Raven)

AGplusone: Then how come NY Times list is supposed to have listed SiaSL as ‘first’ sci-fi best seller?

Merfilly8: the actor was ill, Tawn, and asked to be written out. He knew he was dying

Silverdrake1: Ah

AGplusone: Or is that hyperbole … ?

Silverdrake1: maybe because it was the first to be a best-seller?

Nitropress: Because it’s the Times. They can reinvent history if they want. So there. Ppbbblllt.

Merfilly8: Wasn’t around to know it was first, David… 🙂

Gaeltachta: Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story David.

Nitropress: Stranger wasn’t sf., anyway.

AGplusone: Okay, that’s reassonable.

TAWN3: Oh, thanks Merfilly. Back to topic now I suppose.

Silverdrake1: No, it was a slap at Hubbard. ;p

ddavitt: In case I have to go soon…what exactly is happening in 2 weeks? A break follwed by Gulf?

AGplusone: Not anymore than Gulliver was

Merfilly8: A birthday pary, right?

LadyS122 has entered the room.

Nitropress: Social satire. Not a slap at LRH, though.

Merfilly8: Hey Helen

LadyS122: hello all

Merfilly8: no?

ddavitt: Hi there

AGplusone: No, we’re going to have a birthday party.

Silverdrake1: Oh, no? Who do you think the Fosterites were?

Merfilly8: the mormons?

AGplusone: “Gulf” in four weeks.

Silverdrake1: Uh-uh

ddavitt: Like the Steve one?

Gaeltachta: More info David?

TAWN3: But that did create a great villian for a number of seasons in (?) didn’t it Filly?

ddavitt: Do we bake a cake?

Nitropress: LRH and Heinlein were friends until at least the 1970’s — Bill? Confirm/correct/deny?

Gaeltachta: Both nights?

Silverdrake1: They had a very acrimonious breakup

Merfilly8: I only caught the show rarely after Darius’s death

ddavitt: Anyone seen the Hubbard Heinlein letters on a Hubbard site on the net?

AGplusone: I’ll post a description of what we may (and will) do … both nights.

Merfilly8: he was my fave next to Dawson

ddavitt: OK

Nitropress: I don’t think Scientology was big enough for RAH to target in 1960.

ddavitt: They seemed quite friendly then

TAWN3: NO!

ddavitt: I’ll have to see if I can find them again

Silverdrake1: I know I heard that someplace.

TAWN3: Where are thes e letters?

Nitropress: Oh, Bill’s not here. Never mind.

ddavitt: I’ll search and post on afh…

AGplusone: He seemd to have admired the “Hubbardites” and their discipline.

ddavitt: They were informal ones from H to H about books, editors IIRC

Silverdrake1: Huh. Maybe I’m misremembering, then

AGplusone: Compared to the other targets, anyway.

Nitropress: I wouldn’t trust anything posted by the Scientologists. They have “Navy records” showing LRH’s heroic service.

TAWN3: It is amazing, if you go on AOL SF boards, these people hate Hubbard, it’s like they are talking about the jews while being 1930 German residents.

Merfilly8: I don’t know. It seemed tongue in cheek when he mentioned Scientologists to me

ddavitt: I can’t remember any nore about it…

AGplusone: Of course, the Scudderiteswere disciplined too.

Silverdrake1: Grr

AGplusone: And look what they achieved

TAWN3: They deny Heinlein was freinds with Hubbard, they say RAH was always saying bad things about him, etc

Nitropress: Yes, I think the Fosterites were a combination of Mormons, radio evangelists translated ahead of time to video by RAH, and a few other influences. Not much from LRH/Hubbardites.

ddavitt: I’ve only read bare Faced Messiah

Merfilly8: Asimov fans say the same thing, Tawn

TAWN3: Of course they hate Battlefield Earth the book too, they claim it is to “recruit” and “propagate” the scientology religion (snicker).

ddavitt: That seemed to say they were freinds in the war at least

Nitropress: Yes, and Heinlein believed LRH had suffered grievously in the war– “four shps shot out from under him” etc.

AGplusone: I think that’s clear. LRH sent correspondence to RAH that RAH kept.

ddavitt: Yes

Nitropress: Read “Religion Inc.,” too , Jane.

ddavitt: By whom?

ddavitt: By whom?

Nitropress: Um, in the other room; have fussy boy on my lap. Will check in a moment.

ddavitt: Sorry!

Nitropress: Pizza Pizza

pakgwei: shush

pakgwei: now i have a pizza craving

Silverdrake1: ice cream

KultsiKN: I think I’ll have fill-up of my vodka…

Silverdrake1: Chocolate truffels.

Merfilly8: http://www.randomhouse.com/modernlibrary/100bes t/novels.html

Merfilly8: Check out the readers list to see what Heinlein books made it

TAWN3: Yes, and when I said RAH and Van Vogt abd LRH were old freinds they claimed vV nevr liked him etc and that Campbell was a kook. Little do they know van Vogt ran a Dianetics clinic for over ten years and claimed it cured his wives cancer (as does she). Of course, it was a “Dianetics” clinic, and not CoS, he didn’t like CoS. And so they conveniently won’t list him as a Dianetics practicioneer. LOL

Merfilly8: I was searching for LRH and RAH mentions on same sites

TAWN3: Hard to find. The CoS people and anti Hubbard people have a BIG on going war going on.

Silverdrake1: That’s why I consider the CoS to be kooks. Anyone who has to rewrite the truth that badly can’t be too sure of themselves as either a religion or as individuals.

TAWN3: It would be humorous if it wasn’t so sad.

Silverdrake1: Reminds me of Nineteen-Eighty-Four, y’know.

Nitropress: Religion, Inc.: The Church of Scientology. Stewart Lamont, Harrup, London, 1986.

Silverdrake1: Or USSR under Stalin. Germany under Hitler, etc.

Merfilly8: Concerning Ordeal in Space, since there are some faces not here Thursday, do you feel Bill was Heroic in both ‘rescues’?

Nitropress: Unlike _Madman or Messiah_, whose author clearly hates LRH and Scientology, Lamont starts off neutral and ends up bemused, bewildered and disapproving. Much more even-toned book.

geeairmoe2 has entered the room.

Nitropress: Not as much detail, though– need to read both.

TAWN3: The only zealots I’ve met in person, or online, are the anti Hubbard ones, who always will tell you about how zealous the CoS people are. The reality seems to be the reverse. And when you point that oiut to them, they claim you are a secret agent for the CoS. I have had this happen to me a number of times! All because I use logic and think about what is being said!

Nitropress: Of course, I’m married to someone who took Scientology money. 🙂

Silverdrake1: First was basically a routine op that went wrong, wasn’t it?

ddavitt: More heroic with kitten IMO

KultsiKN: In the first, he was just doing his job, in the second he overcame himself.

Silverdrake1: [nod]

Nitropress: I think Scientology’s zealousness is well documented. And I’ve encountered it myself.

TAWN3: The CoS people I met were no dif from anybody else. Then the Anti Hubbard people claim, “oh, well, they’re just the practicioners, not the leaders. They are all dupes”. etc. So sad. It is religious bigotry in disquise.

AGplusone: Quantifiably different kind of heroism. Knowing sacrifice.

Nitropress: CoS members are one thing. OTs are another.

Silverdrake1: Re: fanatics — I’ve found that logic and reasoned argument will almost always get them frothing at the mouth.

Merfilly8: He knew it was expected the first time, part of his job, not heroic in of itself

Merfilly8: but going after the kitten, completely illogically and overcoming his fear was mildly heroic

KultsiKN: Many a time an ordinary job goes haywire.

Merfilly8: yes, it does

AGplusone: Yes, and he didn’t expect to find himself in complete peril, he thought he could do it.

Silverdrake1: Kitten he rescued because there was a basic concern within him driving him to save even so small a life.

ddavitt: Though as I said, he did seem to have the fear BEFORE he went out so was being a bit brave.

Merfilly8: Rhysling, both times, reacted strictly out of professional conditioning

KultsiKN: Nod

AGplusone: “mildly” I’d call that “wildly” heroic, ranking up there with the hobo’s refusing to get out of the way of the train.

Merfilly8: the fear of falling is often present but controllable. As David pointed out the other night, many parachutists have it

ddavitt: With the kitten rescue the fear was full blown

Merfilly8: I have it, but it manifests oddly…can’t climb ladders or stairs without my heart racing or becoming locked up

pakgwei: heroic: seem to remember a story about heinlein in the service getting shots? or was that a story?

AGplusone: … and they control it until they cannot andtn like the Cap Trooper are paid off …. in a sense.

Merfilly8: But looking from on high does not bother me

Silverdrake1: GHOE ending… Well, if he hadn’t tamed the pile, he would have died with everyone else. Heroism there was in overcoming handicap and remaining calm under crisis

LadyS122: maybe I misunderstand, but Bill’s fear wasn’t acrophobia (heights/falling) it was a fear of open spaces in general.

TAWN3: Silverdrake, reason and logic gets them foaming at the mouth. Exactly. And then they turn their hate on you.

Gaeltachta: Where was the kitten’s mother? Was it a stray, or someone’s pet?

ddavitt: I don’t like enclosed places; can’t breathe..

Merfilly8: it would be fear of falling, but with agoraphobia tacked on due to where he fell…trauma induced

ddavitt: We never know….

AGplusone: Yeah, but he knew when he flushed it the blue fog had to be there, and knew he was dead, so he sang his swan song!

Silverdrake1: Never known where the kitten came from

Merfilly8: Space is as wide open as you get

Gaeltachta: It seemed happy on the ledge, after it stopped miaowing.

ddavitt: Yes, he could have been a catnapper, waltzing off with it to space, breaking some little girl’s heart 🙂

Gaeltachta: That’s what I thought!

LadyS122: I thought you were saying that all he had to get over was his acrophobia, and weren’t counting his agoraphobia (which in some people is so bad they can’t even look out windows.

Merfilly8: I believe Heinlein even mentioned, in Delilah, I think, that Spacemen need to be claustro and agora-phobics alike

AGplusone: That is the defiance of Petronius, the lit crit he made of Nero’s artistic ability!

Silverdrake1: Logic has always been the enemy of fanaticism and bigotry. Which is why the so-called “liberals” (actually fascists) are so set against public schools and universities teaching people to read, think, or do anything but parrot soundbites.

TAWN3: Yes, first thing I thought of, besides, “oh, now he conquers his fear” was “how did a cat get up there?”.

LadyS122: actually, I think they have to be agora/claustrophiles. 🙂

Merfilly8: both

ddavitt: No brains…

Merfilly8: phile and phobe

Gaeltachta: It is also mentioned that Spacemen have an innate fondness for cats – helping keep pests under control, like on ocean going ships. Would cats really be good in free-fall?

Silverdrake1: Do one until the ‘phobe kicks in, then use the other to counteract it.

TAWN3: Yes Jane, I thought that too.

Merfilly8: I don’t know

Silverdrake1: It seems cats actually do very poorly in freefal.

LadyS122: well.. I have to go.. gotta field trip

LadyS122: 🙂

Merfilly8: seems cats could adapt well to free fall, and most of Heinlein’s ships are spun

TAWN3: I did not care for these three stories at all. Well, maybe GHOE a little, but not as poignant as I remembered it.

Merfilly8: bye Helen

ddavitt: Hickam’s new book has a cat on the shuttle

AGplusone: Cats:freefall … one of the things Hickam mentions in Back to the Moon

Silverdrake1: They have such an ingrained response to the feeling of falling that they totally freak out.

Gaeltachta: Hmm…. Did the Sisu have cats? They would prob need them?

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AGplusone: that cat does pretty well

ddavitt: Beat you david!!!

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AGplusone: Not completely

TAWN3: Silverdrake, I agree (catching up) with logic and liberals.

AGplusone: I got more info in

TAWN3: But the right can do the same thing.

ddavitt: http://literary.lronhubbard.ca/page83.htm This is the link to the Heinlein lettters

TAWN3: I’m, a centrist myself.

AGplusone: 😛

TAWN3: A minarchist.

Silverdrake1: radical retrograde Constitutionalist, meself. 😉

ddavitt: 1980; congratualting Heinelin on NOTB

TAWN3: Sean, great question!

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Gaeltachta: Thanks Jane. I saved it.

AGplusone: [it’s hard to compete w/wimmen since we let them wear shoes … ]

Gaeltachta: It *is* interesting tawn.

KultsiKN: Duck, David!

Silverdrake1: Which is why you kept us barefoot for so long? 😉

Merfilly8: Final Blackout?

AGplusone: [they have faster reactions, make good pilots. Yep, Silvedrake]

Merfilly8: what is this reference to Heinlein?

TAWN3: Yes Sean, I was thinking that also, the Sisu would be a good example of where cats are beleiveable.

TAWN3: But on most ships, I wouldn’t expect mice.

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ddavitt: Ooh, I can tell you think you’re safe down there in California David!

Gaeltachta: Maybe some other alien animal was used? But not described.

Silverdrake1: Oh, we’ve had a near-screaming argument going over on Baen’s Bar for the last couple weeks about the roles of women in the military!

AGplusone: Wait ’til we start shipping tonnes and tonnes of grain …

Nitropress: Interesting reaction, Tawn.

geeairmoe2: Am I in?

TAWN3: Thanks for the link Jane

AGplusone: Really, sorry I missed it.

Gaeltachta: We’ve already been there – done that!

Merfilly8: only three letters there

AGplusone: WB Will

pakgwei: yess gee

geeairmoe2: Contemplating evil against my ISP.

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AGplusone: done that, got the tee-shirt … and it’s worn out

Silverdrake1: Heh

TAWN3: radical retrograde Constitutionalist, meself. 😉 Sounds similar to a minarchist

TAWN3: Me too

AGplusone: but we’ll do it again, I predict

Silverdrake1: No. I definitely acknowledge the role of laws as a necessity for civilization.

AGplusone: ” … certain as the revolution of the Earth … ”

TAWN3: Interesting reaction how Jim?

KultsiKN: Never underestimate the power of human stupidity — that’s why we need laws.

Silverdrake1: not for stupidity so much as greed

KultsiKN: Greed is stupid and shortsighted.

Merfilly8: I disagree with laws dealing with consensual crimes

ddavitt: Isn’t that an oxymoron?

Silverdrake1: “consensual crime” is an oxymoron

TAWN3: Silverdrake, so do I. I equate Minarchist with jeffersonian.

ddavitt: Beat you too Silver! I’m on a roll…

ddavitt: 🙂

TAWN3: But I like Judge Bork so that should tell you something.

Silverdrake1: You aren’t typing with aching muscles from a heavy weightlifting workout, tho’, are you? ;p

geeairmoe2: Ditto on Bork.

Merfilly8: I disliked Bork

AGplusone: About Ordeal, how many of you would step off into those elevators? And once they’re in place how do you keep five-year-olds from riding them up and down like escalators

TAWN3: Greed is good. ARC was written because someone wanted to profit. As a result, we all profit.

Silverdrake1: Personally, I could stand the man if he were kept on a short leash.

ddavitt: Certianly not; I’m pregnant; no heavy lifting allowed.

ddavitt: Back aches tho…

TAWN3: Why Filly?

AGplusone: Do five-year-olds still run up and down department store escalators?

Merfilly8: The idea of drop chutes was familiar to me prior to seeing it in Heinlein. I liked them very much, but I could see definitive problems with them

ddavitt: Helped out at daughter’s play day; in charge of water hose

KultsiKN: Want a back rub, Jane? I’m _very_ good at it…

ddavitt: Need long arms Kultsi!

AGplusone: I wanted to know how they got up … pneumatic tubes?

ddavitt: Drop chutes are fun but scary; remember Ariel in Menace?

Gaeltachta: Do they work going up as well? Or just down? In fire alarms would be good.

Silverdrake1: What? You can’t imagine the backrub enough to activate the relaxation?

Merfilly8: Bork=pompous pig

KultsiKN: there is that…

Merfilly8: not an intellctual reason, but that was what I felt when reading it

TAWN3: Oh Filly, you’re just jealous.

ddavitt: Not at the same time as typing; I’m human not Heinlein

ddavitt: maybe that should be “heinlein” as in a genius type…

AGplusone: Or did the ‘artificial gravity’ have a reversable effect for the up elevator?

TAWN3: The reason he scared the left was because he actually was a legal genius, and capable of doing something with the court. That is why they went all out to stop him. The competent person is the dangerous person.

Merfilly8: they didn’t have artificial grav fields yet

Merfilly8: Hence the spinning ship

ddavitt: Did in Walk Dogs…but it didn’t fit in.

Silverdrake1: Ever notice that Heinlein tended to write about people who would qualify as Ubermensch re: Neitzsche?

Merfilly8: For Ordeal

TAWN3: In event of fire, take the stairs, not the drop chutes.

AGplusone: Just throw the swith the other way … really? What was the drop tube then?

AGplusone: switch?

Merfilly8: thought you lisped

ddavitt: How do bounce tubes work tho? Have them in SIASL via Mike’s powers IIRC but seem to be common tech as well; Jubal won’t use them

ddavitt: Ben says Mike has smoothed out the bugs

AGplusone: I dew … particularly when I’m about to pop a bigger man .

Merfilly8: I can’t answer David, but it went into the whole artificial grav field being non-existent, I thought

TAWN3: Van Vogt writes Ubermensch, I don’t think RAH comes close, except for Mike, LL, or possibly the old Man and/or Jubal.

Gaeltachta: brb

TAWN3: Jommy Cross is an Ubermensch, as is Gilbert Gosseyn.

Silverdrake1: No, those would just be top of the heap

TAWN3: RAH characters are more beleiveable as being real people (except for LL, etc.)

Silverdrake1: Everyone rising to their own level of competence is the basis of Nietzsche.

ddavitt: What about Gulf, Friday?

AGplusone: That’s an interesting point that we’ll have a lot of fun with in Gulf, Tawn.

TAWN3: Right,

ddavitt: brb; have to feed offspring

TAWN3: Friday too, but he is a variation of Jubal and the Old Man is he not?

AGplusone: And why isn’t LL believable? Give me health over 2,000 years and see what I can do …

TAWN3: Oh I agree David

ddavitt: Mind boggles David !:-)

TAWN3: That is why I don’t think of them as Ubermensch in the SF tradition.

Nitropress: He’s pretty unbelievable in his first century alone…

AGplusone: I just start getting real tricky and senility sets in …

Merfilly8: As mentioned before….24 centuries of losing people, seems difficult to endure

Silverdrake1: Was talking philosophy, not SF conventions

TAWN3: Bester’s “The Stars My Destination” would be Ubermensch, but it also is a tribute to van Vogt.

Nitropress: “Now where is that wife? I just put her here a century ago…”

Gaeltachta: Sunday morning visitors. Gotta go. Thanks for the chat.

Merfilly8: Making him the backup pilot for LaCroix was a bit much

Silverdrake1: bye

TAWN3: Most other ubermensches I think of in SF are parodies.

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Nitropress: Tribute to VV? How?

AGplusone: hehehe … bye SD

AGplusone: oh, Sean, bye SD

TAWN3: Cross anfd Gosseyn, while fun, are TOO super huan to be beleiveable in the real sense, they arer pulp heroes.

TAWN3: ala Flash Gordon.

Merfilly8: only Bester I have read was The Vanishing Man

Silverdrake1: was saying bye to someone else. But come to think of it, I was trying to finish a chapter in my ms when the chat request came through…… [sigh]

AGplusone: But not ala Evelyn Cyril?

Nitropress: Read _Stars My Destination_ and _Demolished Man_. Essential sf.

geeairmoe2: The problem of letting everyone rise to their own level of competence is that the incompetent find it unfair.

Merfilly8: oops my bad…demolished it was

Nitropress: Vicious. 🙂

Merfilly8: only because of Babylon Five

Silverdrake1: have enjoyed the conversation, folks, but do have to get back to writing. Talk to you all some other time. 🙂

Nitropress: What’s the B5 connection?

AGplusone: STick around … we only go 45 more minutes

Merfilly8: By Silver

Silverdrake1: Well, if it’s time-limited, okay. 🙂

Merfilly8: Bester is head of their Psi Corp…head cops

Nitropress: O really?

Merfilly8: a deliberate tribute to BEster’s Demolished Man

Silverdrake1: Huh. Didn’t know that

Merfilly8: the character played by Walter Koenig

TAWN3: Jim, TSMD is written in the 800 word scene, with a major plot change every 800 words, with a super hero with unexplained science, etc. etc. etc. It jumps out at you at once. He is using vV;s published formula. It is a radically different style than The Demolished Man for instance.

Nitropress: Interesting.

AGplusone: [OTOH: there’s only room for one “silver’ in this town, stranger. Be outside the bar in Main Street at High Noon! ]

Silverdrake1: One of the best portrayals of “one’s man’s villain is another man’s hero I’ve ever seen.”

Merfilly8: Won’t the sun be in y’all’s eyes?

Silverdrake1: Growf? You want to pick a fight with a dragon?

Nitropress: Tawn: Never noticed that. Interesting.

Silverdrake1: Who is the other ‘silver?”

TAWN3: True Geeairmoe, incompetent want big government to compensate for their inability.

Merfilly8: AG+1

TAWN3: The American Dream Machine.

Nitropress: That’s because he’s an AGgie. 🙂

Silverdrake1: Incompetent are ‘the herd’

AGplusone: No, we’ll be both newly-made Englishmen! Or mad dogs, take your pick. Ag=chemical term for Silver

AGplusone: from Latin

TAWN3: Right, that was a tribute to Bester.

Merfilly8: Periodic Table

ddavitt: Back again…

Silverdrake1: Well, you can be chemical silver, and I’ll be argent dragon. 😉

ddavitt: I’m a wood dragon myself..

KultsiKN: That was good, Silv.

Merfilly8: won an exemption from a test for memorizing the most elements…can’t remember many now

Nitropress: After several hours of fussy babies, my assisdragon.

Silverdrake1: Although, you’re Ag+1, which actually means you are….. ?

TAWN3: Van Vogt made no bones about his formula. He published it as well as what influenced him.

AGplusone: works for me … 😎 … so long as your son doesn’t try to date my daughter ….

Silverdrake1: [laugh] Nitro

AGplusone: That’s my real name … David Silver

Silverdrake1: Ah

Nitropress: And, of course, vV went all dianetic on us… 🙂

Silverdrake1: I always saw vV as an incorrigible lover of aristocracies.

TAWN3: Thanks Jim. I want to make a niche for myself as a vV scholar someday.

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TAWN3: If I can ever break away from RAH. 🙂

AGplusone: I think Pournelle is closer to that … lover of aristocracy

AGplusone: One that evolves of necessity in a vacuum

TAWN3: DUH! AG = Silver!

AGplusone: And a more natural form of government is an empire

geeairmoe2: SF Book Club has the Isher books together in one volume: The Empire of Isher.

Merfilly8: Are any of Heinlein’s works mainly nods to other authors, excluding NOTB?

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geeairmoe2: Somewhere, I have an old STARLOG where vV talks about his style.

AGplusone: ‘mainly’ I think there are little nods

TAWN3: But he said he was satisfied with what he had written and wanted more in life, when he came back later, apparently for the money, it was od=f far lessor quality.

AGplusone: A lot of Wells, Twain … Huxley … Darwin …

Merfilly8: I catch the Kiplings and the Twains

Nitropress: They’re curable.

Merfilly8: But Twain was obvious to me, since I read TSBTS second

TAWN3: vV does tend to like aristocrocies. However, he even made the Pres of the US into one in the Silkie, something which struck me as being very Heinleinistic. That book reminded me a lot of RAH.

Merfilly8: lol

KultsiKN: Also nods to real persons…

TAWN3: Hell, Herbert, Dune, aristocracvy

Nitropress: Where aristocracy is the spice of life.

ddavitt: Like Armattoe…I’m determined to track that down…

ddavitt: Got me interested now…

TAWN3: David, I think Empire is a natural form of gov.

AGplusone: Must be a bio somewhere, Jane.

TAWN3: Tor is republishing a lot of vV.

Merfilly8: With a name like Armattoe, I would have started trying to descramble it for another name, to be honest

ddavitt: Or the original work in which he mentions supermen

AGplusone: Slavery is a natural form too …

ddavitt: Why?

Merfilly8: why who?

ddavitt: There definitelt is an Armattoe who was an anthropologist who died in 1950’s…

KultsiKN: Filly, I agree with you.

Silverdrake1: Slavery was actually a merciful alternative to the previous practice of slaughtering everyone.

AGplusone: But is it something we evolve out of like the Athenians or what …

TAWN3: geeairmoe (Will?) write me, I’ll dig up some resources for you. Or go read the archives at egroups, van Vogt.

ddavitt: Why unscramble name?

Merfilly8: something concerning the NOTB thread about the names within came to me when I saw that name

KultsiKN: Like Krause=Krausa in COTG…

AGplusone: Maybe I’d rather have my hand taken off as Caesar did to that Gallic tribe as an alternative to both

Merfilly8: but I could not unscramble it logically. I’m poor with word games

geeairmoe2: I’ve been meaning to read some vV since you brought him up a couple of months ago. Never enough time.

TAWN3: How come my print got light?

ddavitt: But in this case, Raphael Ernest Grail Armattoe is _real_

Merfilly8: yes

Nitropress: Read “Cosmic See-Saw.” Best closing line in sf.

Merfilly8: but the relevence?

TAWN3: Slavery. In the US we call it welfare.

AGplusone: At least my son will be born to serve in Augustus’ Legions …

Merfilly8: kind of fun to look things up like that. Look at what I found on Brewster that seemed relevent to Brewster’s Ridge

KultsiKN: RAH did not take names of real persons as they were, I think.

ddavitt: H made a ref to geniuses making their own rules about sex, as A showed.

Merfilly8: ahh

ddavitt: As A was an anthropologist, bingo!

Nitropress: Watch saved, Tawn.

Nitropress: 🙂

AGplusone: or rebel against Augustus, take your pick …

ddavitt: But still need to pin down the ref to be 100% sure

TAWN3: Slavery has many definitions, such as Janisarries, who end up being slave emperors/rulers, etc

ddavitt: Yes, it’s great hopping round the net and searching obscure stuff

ddavitt: H really hit that when he had friday doing it; way ahead of his time

Merfilly8: heck, a lot of times the encyclopedias on line are all the searching I need

TAWN3: Was’nt Aristotle a slave?

ddavitt: He even had DVD’s prophesied

TAWN3: Lots of definitions of slaves besides the last 300 years.

AGplusone: For every Janissary, there’s 1,000 hewers on the mont and cotton pickers …

ddavitt: Or do I mean something else? You know, films you can play thru computer

TAWN3: I liked the closing of The Billion Names of God myself.

ddavitt: Great story!

Merfilly8: y’all read too much 🙂

KultsiKN: One of the best.

ddavitt: Classic short by Arthur C Clarke

TAWN3: Watch saved?

Nitropress: [Tawn] Old joke.

Nitropress: Closing line of “See-Saw” is better.

TAWN3: Oh

AGplusone: When the prayer wheels stop spinning … loved that little aside in Operation Chaos by Anderson … to keep nukes from being used.

TAWN3: There was another short I recently read where it had what I thougt was the best closing line I ever read, and I can’t for the life of me remember what irt

TAWN3: OH!

TAWN3: (what it was)

TAWN3: It was Frederick Brown!

TAWN3: Someone sent it too me. GREAT SHORT!

TAWN3: GREAT closing line.

TAWN3: They create a supercomputer that covers all the known worlds, to decipher if there is a God……

KultsiKN: Come on, Tawn, give, give, give….

TAWN3: It comes up with an answer 🙂

ddavitt: Which is best? A good opening line or a good closing line?

TAWN3: The last line.

stephenveiss has entered the room.

TAWN3: Great story!

ddavitt: No; don’t spoil it:-)\

Merfilly8: wb Stephen

geeairmoe2: Damon Knight’s (I think it was his) last two people on Earth story, “Not With A Bang” or something like that. Great ending.

ddavitt: WB Stephen

stephenveiss: thx

AGplusone: [question: anyone still in room who was there when it opened who can send a back up to David Wright for the log, just in case?]

ddavitt: Or Clarke’s one “The Star”

stephenveiss: (mums PC died)

Merfilly8: ouch

ddavitt: Yes; I can save it

Merfilly8: fixable?

AGplusone: No!

AGplusone: Please do, Jane.

ddavitt: Will do at end

KultsiKN: David W is still on.

Merfilly8: Stephen, how’d it die?

ddavitt: But I don’t think he’s actually here

AGplusone: I’m like Randy Jost … I save periodically … so if I crash … I have the beginning … but he could crash before this ends.

ddavitt: It’s a just in case

TAWN3: The Frederick Brown story is very short. I got it via e-mail from a freind. I will send it to anyone who wants it, although that might technically be illegal and a co[pyright infringement.

KultsiKN: No, he’s not, but the connection is there.

ddavitt: He should be fine; but never know, might have a power cut or something

KultsiKN: I can do it as well — save, that is.

ddavitt: Sure..

ddavitt: More the merrier

AGplusone: That’s always helpful … a boot or crash happens occasionally.

ddavitt: Funny how we can’t stick to topic on the short stories..or is it because the two groups are more or less the same now? Is 6 hours too much for three short stories?

ddavitt: Any thoughts on merging?

Merfilly8: Short stories don’t seem to have as much meat

ddavitt: Or is that a sore subject?

AGplusone: A question: besides a birthday party, what would you like to see discussed the next week?

Merfilly8: Grumbles?

Nitropress: Cindy Crawford.

ddavitt: Yes; characters have less room to develop and become friends

Merfilly8: or the one about his trips?

AGplusone: Seeing how it evolves Jane … two times help some.

ddavitt: Timezones you mean?

Merfilly8: two times lets more interact, due to timezones

AGplusone: Cindy Crawford as Sister Judith … work also … and social commitments. Other hobbies.

ddavitt: Trying to think David ( always a problem…)

Merfilly8: Need proper equipment

Merfilly8: to think

KultsiKN: I’d like to have a discussion, ‘specially when I’ve read the stories, and now this seems to be anything but… Jane, where’s that sword?

ddavitt: Certainly helps.

ddavitt: Haven’t seen it for ages Kultsi 🙂

geeairmoe2: Perhaps: Which RAH character we would most like to meet? And why?

AGplusone: Bill has a plan to start something called The Heinlein Society he wants to jump restart. Something to discuss … perhaps.

Merfilly8: Toss a bone, Kultsi, and I’ll gnaw!

AGplusone: Other things: the Chicon, etc.

ddavitt: Need to push to get everyone familiar with all the stories; book exchange could help?

KultsiKN: Quite a bit of static around here…

Merfilly8: Cats are self generating static convertors, Kultsi, and we have a lot around

ddavitt: Are there many regulars on the chats who haven’t read them all and need help getting them?

Merfilly8: yep!

AGplusone: There’s a school lit program some sci-fi authors are trying to get going … anyone know anything about it? Brin and others are involved.

Merfilly8: oh, sorry

ddavitt: Which ones?

ddavitt: No, david

AGplusone: [I have 3 years of logs that Dave Wright will be putting up a few at a time].

Merfilly8: I own 14, soon to be fifteen, of RAH’s books. Our local swap shop no longer has any of his, and do not get them in often

ddavitt: Let me know any wants and I can keep an eye open

Merfilly8: and when they do, they go first to the local soldiers for a program they have to improve literacy

Nitropress: I just found out today that my pet bookstore is closing up its brick and mortar shop for exclusively e-commerce. Great bummer in this household.

ddavitt: I buy any really cheap ones for the exchamge but I can’t afford to pay much 🙁

KultsiKN: Filly, are you serious about the literacy?

ddavitt: Books are a bit of a luxury in a one income family.

Merfilly8: me either. and the ones I find, are the ones I have or the exchange has already

geeairmoe2: I’ve got everything execept “Notebooks”, but no duplicates of anything.

AGplusone: And there might be other things any one of you might know that we could be discussing … sorta an open meeting …. think what you might bring as a ‘personal’ gift to ‘pay it forward’

Merfilly8: yes. The military started up a few programs that are allowing sub-level educated soldiers in

ddavitt: Well, Notebooks is in TEFL so that’s a technical hitch I suppose….though i got the illustrated one anyway!

Merfilly8: so Ft. Bragg has a books-to-soldiers program going with our swap shop

Nitropress: I’m trading LE #3 for a Vassallo original.

Merfilly8: Pop has the Notebooks

ddavitt: Mine is the reprint one I think; only a few years old

Merfilly8: I can get other authors but Heinlein is perennially out

ddavitt: Definitely not 1970’s

KultsiKN: Jim, any way I can get the ARC? Haven’t got any credit card.

geeairmoe2: Our local Friends of the Library has book sales 2 to 4 times a year, I can start picking some up there.

TAWN3: Filly, US soldiers? The recruiting problem again. And retention problem. I made a post on AFH about it.

ddavitt: The Heinlein Book Exchange seems to be working well; Don hasn’t reported many problems I don’t think

AGplusone: Sounds like everyone of them could use a copy of Troopers …. assuming the Almost Airborne can read, Filly [we know they only need to count to four]

Merfilly8: let me know by e-mail what books any of you are hunting and I will try to find them around here.

Nitropress: [Kultsi] Send an international MO.

Merfilly8: The recruiting with college money led to the retention prob Tawn

KultsiKN: [Jim] OK, _if_ the overhead is not horrendous.

Merfilly8: all these kids signed a four year hitch to replace DS vets, strictly for the college, and they all got out near about the same time.

AGplusone: (or eight, anyway, assuming the Daily Dozen is still being done)

Nitropress: Be US$33.50 for a softcover, US$43.00 for a hardcover.

TAWN3: 101st is the “almost airborne”.

AGplusone: 101st is puking buzzards

TAWN3: I disagree Filly. It is OT here though

Merfilly8: Agreed, David, though I wore that buzzard

Silverdrake1: Ooo! Do we hear interunit hostility, here?

Merfilly8: true

AGplusone: And I wore AA briefly …

TAWN3: There are too many people with ten plus years who got out. Officer and enlisted.

Merfilly8: I didn’t want the AA patch though….turned down jump before I even knew I couldn’t do it physically

geeairmoe2: Ought ot be around my house for the Army-Navy Game, half the family against the other half.

Silverdrake1: Well, you’re all a bunch of nobodies, anyway. The Navy is the only service fully and perennially funded under full Constitutional authority, so NYAH! 😉

Merfilly8: Heck, Will…I was “supposed” to go AF…third gen if I had

AGplusone: Okay … six minutes … anyone have anything?

ddavitt: My hunter is home from the sea..er, river with….a samll mouth bass so I will save and go now. Bye to all.

Merfilly8: supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

geeairmoe2: Two Air Force cousins always pointing out which academy wins the Commanders Cup.

Silverdrake1: Poddy was a maroon! Nyah [smack, smack]

AGplusone: Confessions will be afterwards from close until “all are heard” as usual …

KultsiKN: Jim, did you know this Krause=Krausa thing in COTG?

ddavitt has left the room.

Silverdrake1: cotg?

Nitropress: Who’s Krause?

Merfilly8: citizen of the galaxy

Silverdrake1: [smack self]

Merfilly8: i can’t get them all the time either

KultsiKN: Mr. Krause is the namesake for Capt. Krausa.

Nitropress: [smacks Silverdrake just for fun]

geeairmoe2: unsmakc yourself, these initials drive me crazy.

AGplusone: Who was Krause?

Nitropress: Who is Mr. Krause, is hte question.

Silverdrake1: [Silverdrake chomps Nitro’s hand and leaves large teeth marks]

KultsiKN: A real person I talked on the phone with the other week.

Nitropress: Ha! That was my wooden hand!

Silverdrake1: [Looks funny, then spits Nitro out] Sorry! Only meant to get your hand!

geeairmoe2: Played with the Vikings, more interceptions than any other NFL player.

Nitropress: Okay, how did he become the inspriation for Krausa?

AGplusone: Been watching Gene Wilder movies, have you, Jim?

Nitropress: Help me with the bags, Igor.

AGplusone: I loved that Dracula post, btw!

Silverdrake1: Well, he’d better hope he smacked me with that wooden hand, too. Dragon scales are hard! 😉

AGplusone: Yes, Master …. Walk this way.

KultsiKN: He’s one of those persons the Heinleins met on their travels, he did help them in Helsinki -55, showed them around and such, and later the name was used in COTG.

Silverdrake1: This way?

TAWN3: The hump is on the wrong side, and it is pronounced “eye” gor thank you.

geeairmoe2: You take the blonde and I’ll take the one in the turbin.

Silverdrake1: Hump? What hump?

Nitropress: Jane, vould you like a roll in ze hay?

Silverdrake1: What knockers!

Nitropress: Oh, wait, where did Jane go? I mean, What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?

Merfilly8: Abby…Abby Normal

Silverdrake1: Said a give?

Nitropress: I had a version of that for my logon sound that said, “Abbie… Hoffman.”

TAWN3: Good movie!

geeairmoe2: A riot is a terrible thing … and I think’s it about time we have one!

TAWN3: Steal This Book, so I did.

Nitropress: My copy was stolen long ago, so I bought two to fool the buttheads.

Silverdrake1: Saw that movie in the theatres. Laughed so hard, I could hardly breathe the next day because my sides and ribs were so sore! 🙂

Nitropress: Ditto!

AGplusone: Saturday, June 24, 2000, 5:01:08 PM, PDT, closing log (such as it is).

Final End of Discussion Log


 

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